Nuno, Marinakis & Edu: Why three's a crowd for Forest

0:01This is a Global Player Original Podcast.

0:30together, but it's not a reality. Well, that was Nuno Espirito Santo speaking over the weekend about what has been described as a complete breakdown in the relationship between him and the Nottingham Forest hierarchy. And remember, Nuno only signed a new three-year deal back in June this year after he guided Forest back into Europe for the first time in decades. Also playing a part in this is Edu, who was sporting director at Arsenal and is now the Forest's owner's global head of football. That was seen as a big coup, but under two months into his tenure, could this be the problem? So today we're going to dig into the off-field soap opera involving an owner with a penchant for the dramatic and a tale of just how quickly things can change in football.

1:21Penchant. Welcome to the Sports Agents. Bonjour.

1:35the sports agents with gabby logan and mark chapman so in a moment chapas we're going to speak to david protton who's a former say hello to me oh hello chapas let's do the formula hello chapas hi gabby in a moment we are going to speak to Sky Sports, David Protton, who's a former Forest midfielder. He's going to give us a little bit more insight into what is going on at the city ground. It is really a tale of something that seems so idyllic and perfect and was one of those clubs that you were enjoying their success as a neutral last season. And it's just all gone a bit Pete Tong, hasn't it? It has.

2:13It has. Speaking of things that have gone a little bit Pete Tong, Newcastle's summer, which we talked about a lot. But I think if I was a Newcastle fan, which you are, and we're recording this after their 3-2 home defeat by Liverpool, I would take so many positives from last night. It's hard in the immediate aftermath, but there is so much, I think, from a Newcastle point of view to go, wow, that was amazing. Just enormously proud of the performance and the way those players, guided by the immense performance from Bruno. He was just incredible. Really, they did not shirk anything last night. And Anthony Gordon, you could argue, was clearly as a sending off, but playing an unfamiliar role, obviously, you know, trying to be a centre forward, which is not an easy thing, is it, to suddenly have that thrust upon you?

3:04And I think maybe just there was a little bit, a bit too keen. Yeah, I mean, it was still a terrible challenge. It was awful. I mean, the hole in the back of Van Dyke's sock was, I don't even know why they needed to go to VAR for that. But it was almost written the stars that they would get the winner in that 11 minutes of extra time at the end. Do you know what the most annoying thing was about that match? About five o 'clock yesterday, Kenny Logan, my husband, said, you're going to lose 3-2 tonight. He actually predicted that scoreline. And so when we were two all with two minutes, one minute on the clock, I was thinking, well, I mean, I'm taking a point here all day long, because that was an incredible comeback.

3:43But equally, you're going to be wrong. And he was bloody right. Did he rub that point in or not? Only a few times. But also, I think as a Manchester United fan, he hasn't got too far to go with any kind of smugness. Well, I had a Manchester United fan text me last night whilst that game was on to say, if only our players displayed this fight, this energy, this togetherness over recent years. It does seem inevitable, doesn't it, that in the next couple of days, we are going to be talking about Isak's signing for Liverpool as well. That feels like it's coming. Yeah, but then the delegation that's been to his house, has that changed anything?

4:24Well, I was hearing over the weekend that sometime this week, that's going to be sorted and it's going to be spun in a way that makes it look like Newcastle have got top dollar and Liverpool are going to spin it, that they've got a great deal. But let's see, let's see. They've still got to get forwards in. And so whatever Liverpool offer, if they can't get a couple of forwards in, I don't see how they can accept it. I don't, because they're going to be in a real mess if they can't get anybody in. And now there's talk of Nicholas Jackson going on loan to Bayern, I think. Wolves have rejected their bid for Strand-Larsen.

4:58So where are they going? Maybe that's got a bit of negotiation. That bid was rejected. Maybe it's just a matter of terms on that one. And on a happier note, had a wonderful evening at the Stadium of Light last Friday for England's opener of the Rugby World Cup, the Women's Rugby World Cup, of course, against the United States. It was such an incredible atmosphere. And of course, the Stadium of Light is not used to hosting women's rugby matches. And it was just brilliant. And obviously, it was a comprehensive win. That was to be expected because USA are nowhere near the level that England are. And their run of wins has just been incredible.

5:32you know they've only lost one in 58 matches a great solo try as well well a solo effort by Ellie Kildun who eventually offloaded it to Jeff Breach but was one of the tries of the tournament arguably already.

5:57And Gabby's sit down with several members of the squad dropped over the weekend you can catch up with that and all of our episodes on youtube global player or wherever you get your pods and i don't know what you were doing in the match of the day office on sunday evening but i was very happy to be at home and just watching it was on the golf it was i thought it might have been and i don't think the phrase go on tommy or come on tommy has been said in our in our lounge as much as me and my son did on sunday night it was just oh my god it was just a joy to see him win the Tour Championship. It was just amazing.

6:37We, I think, in this country appreciate that he's very popular. When you saw the flood of messages coming in from all quarters of sport to congratulate him, LeBron James, Caitlin Clarke, Michael Phelps, I mean, Tommy Fleetwood is one hell of a popular guy. And actually, that came through in the cheers of the crowd. The crowd were on his side as well. Now, I contrast that to a few weeks ago when he lost the Travellers to Keegan Bradley. The crowd weren't anti-Fleetwood then, but they were very much pro-Bradley, who is the US Ryder Cup captain. So there were lots of USA chants, and it was all part and parcel of it.

7:16And I really felt for him as he lost the Travellers. He then lost a subsequent one as well to Justin Rose. But what was really noticeable in Atlanta was the crowd were completely on his side. Now, that one highlights his popularity. Secondly, it probably highlights how not popular Patrick Cantlay is in all of this, as that was the one who was going head-to-head with. But Scheffler was in the running for a while as well, and yet the crowd were just urging Tommy on. He is one of the most popular sportsmen on the planet at the moment. Yeah, and that is great for Europe, as we are weeks away from a Ryder Cup, isn't it?

7:53Yeah, it won't be popular then. Will he still have a little pocket of that crowd? Will they appreciate him at all or will they just... No, they're going to be horrible. Wait till we discuss that. They're going to be horrible. He won't be popular then. So is he the most universally loved sports person in the world right now? Let us know if you agree or disagree via email, thesportsagentsatglobal.com or on our socials or via the link in the episode description. Back to today's main story though. a Premier League club who are undoubtedly one of last season's biggest success stories, rocked to its foundations just two games into the new season.

8:29What is going on with Nuno and Nottingham Forest? That's next. The Sports Agents.

8:38The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

8:46David, thank you so much for joining us on The Sports Agents to discuss something that I think a lot of football fans would have thought almost impossible, implausible, that we don't know where we are right now, do we? We know the manager told us on Sunday that he doesn't know whether he's going to be here at the end of the transfer window. How surprised were you? Did you see this coming at all from the end of last season? The only bit that stood out that potentially could have sowed the seeds for this, I was working on the Leicester City game. Obviously, Leicester bidding farewell to the Premier League and putting up a fight as and when that horse had bolted.

9:20And the owner came on the pitch, didn't he? To speak to Nuno in inverted commas. Here's the Forest owner coming on the pitch. Well, this is not something that you see, is it? Or particularly that you want to see? That remonstration for me was not really anything to do with that. It was to do with what had happened in the game, which then put them in jeopardy of the Champions League places. And we know how that all panned out. So I thought there was a little inkling there. Obviously, fast forward, pre-season comes around, and it all seemed to be pretty rosy. Then you see Edu come in, and this is what I've been really trying to work out because quite clearly Edu and Nuno don't like each other.

10:00Seemingly, from all my digging, that's kind of happened on day one. And then you hear Nuno's words before the first game of the season against Brentford where he talked about the team being completely undercooked, underprepared, and I'm sat there watching it almost with your jaw on the floor thinking, I mean, these are big, big statements. Because Nuno's known, isn't he, for being pragmatic, a bit of a politician. The big smile comes out when he's finished his answer and you kind of go, okay, he's said his bit. You're not getting anything else out of him. And then you go into the first game of the season, which I was privileged to be at, and they were absolutely sensational.

10:31Then you fast forward once again to the statements or the rumours coming out of Italy that he was supposedly coming away from the football club, which was never dampened down either, was it, by Nuno. He literally said where there's a bit of smoke, there tends to be a bit of fire. So now they find themselves at this impasse, which potentially this week there's a meeting to be had. But again, Nuno doesn't sound in any real rush to have this meeting, does he? He's in charge. He's preparing the team. Players have come in. Whether those players that come in are Nuno's or Edu's, we'll soon see. They're very good players with potential.

11:04But right now, you've got the owner and Edu on one page and Nuno's seemingly kind of cracking on with the players. and that references a Nottingham Forest of, I don't know, maybe five years ago, which was used to a bit of carnage and a bit of kind of craziness and had really settled down with an owner who I think categorically has been a wonderful thing for Forest. However, this situation needs to come to a head. But then the other thing, Gabby, you were doing Match of the Day on Sunday and you had Rob Green and Troy with you and Forest did, as they said in their analysis for you, Forest did what Forest do in getting their point of palace.

11:39The other thing that struck me in those post-match interviews and pre-match interviews with Nino can be a bit like, I won't surprise you to know that I have some sympathy with this. It's like he's blown off in an argument, throwing the toys out of the pram. And then 48 hours later, he's gone, well, yeah, everything's all right. And I'm smiling. And he was very smiley, wasn't he, on Sunday? He was. He was very, on the one hand, seems like he's very much in control of his destiny. and the guys were surmising or kind of wondering whether or not he was actually creating the narrative publicly more than the club are so that if this doesn't work out very well, constructive dismissal is going to potentially be his argument.

12:22So is this a case of almost like there's too many cooks on one side? Edu, obviously, Ross Wilson, who's going to potentially be leaving to go to Newcastle. You've got a very dominant owner who has strong opinions because so many clubs, I don't know if you agree with this, Chappers, have a sporting director who just seems to get on with the job and the manager kind of accepts that that's his role, whereas it feels here like that relationship. He said he's not as close, didn't he, Dave, to Maranakis. Has that caused a tension in their relationship that now is unsolvable in terms of any harmony going forwards?

12:59It's a strange way of going about fostering good relations, isn't it? almost kind of saying, I can't speak to the owner, so I'm going to use the media as my vehicle to get my messages across. And it just, there was a little insight into the Mark Chapman psyche there. So you normally blow up Chapters, then retrospectively go, what's the problem? It's absolutely fine now. But I mean, that's very much Nuno's way, isn't it? There's a lot of Latin temperaments going on. Not with Chapters, obviously, but there's a lot of Latin temperaments, isn't there? Yeah, there is. From Ronchdale. Exactly, yeah.

13:32I mean, that hotbed of that type of temperament. But, I mean, again, rumours suggest that, I mean, going back to when Edu first took over, that Nuno wanted someone of a Dama Traore ilk. Amari Hutchinson comes in. Again, very good player, young player, a lot of money, 37 million quid for a player such as that. But there was a Mendes approach at one stage at Forest, to a degree, not necessarily only his players. And Keir Drebchin, obviously, is Edu's kind of camp as well. So whether there's a movement with regards to what type or what model of player comes in, I don't know. But that sense of him sounding off in the media about their relationship, saying it wasn't what it was.

14:14And that's the great thing. As much as he's very, very combustible, the owner, you do well to find a Forest fan that thinks that having him in charge is a bad thing. I mean, he took the Premier League on, stepped forward and said, this is what we're going to do. Got them back into Europe. Yes, there was that slight disappointment about it not being the Champions League, but the Europa League, given, of course, what happened with Palace, is a wonderful opportunity for them. And that then dovetailed into the type of players that they're getting into the football club. Douglas Luiz being another one.

14:43That level of play, that strata of play, it's a different supermarket type of analogy, isn't it? You're in that competition, so you get a different level of play. But there'll be a lot of ego as well. So whether there's a bit of power play at play, who backs down, who blinks first? because we're only ever going to hear from Nuno the minute we start putting a microphone in front of Edu. And seemingly the only time you see the owner is when he's stood next to his captain telling him that, you're happy to be here, aren't you, Morgan? Yes, of course I am. It's a wonderful place to be. Which was reflected, obviously, in the banner that the Crystal Palace fans had very cleverly got together with depicting a gun being held to the head of Morgan Gibbs right by Maranakis.

15:20I think what you like about that, well, you've got to say football fans are very quick off the mark, aren't they, sometimes? and ironic as well that it was Palace fans. But he does mark, doesn't he? Maranakis, he's sometimes more famous than the club in terms of stories that come out. We've had this for quite a long time with him compared to other owners. Well, he's got a high profile and he cares. And actually, you could ask a lot of football fans about what's going on with their clubs at the moment. I mean, one of David's former clubs as well, actually, in Sheffield Wednesday. Football fans want their owners to care, and Forest fans have an owner that cares.

16:02The thing that I found, I was talking to a Forest fan last night, the bizarre thing in all of this for Forest fans is that they like both the men on either side of this argument, in the owner and the head coach. Now, Edu's neither here nor there at the moment, but if these transfers pay off that they've brought in, then they're going to like eddie eddie as well my personal thing is i think they've done really good business this summer so to have this blow up over over transfers i find a little bit odd but the forest fan that i was talking to was saying their questioning at the moment was was more of nuno and why do this and why why bring this out into the open when everything you know at the end of the summer and they're going into the europa league and this all seems quite you know they were very happy with how things were going and until until Nuno spoke and actually their feeling was and this is just one person I appreciate that David but their feeling was that their loyalty would be more with Marianakis than with Nuno and they've been here before you know with Cooper going and Nuno replacing Steve Cooper they've lost managers that they've liked before but then have trusted the process and they kind of felt that they'd feel this again if he was to leave.

17:16I'd agree with that because we saw that emotional outpouring when Steve moved on and there was a faction saying, I mean, how could he ever be replaced? But by the very nature of what football is, I mean, the king is dead, long live the king. Nuno comes in, elevates his squad. He's so amenable in the right kind of way without being a pushover of saying the right thing, doing the right thing, bringing everyone together, saying, I understand what the situation is. I mean, I understand they've just packed the bags and left and I've come and moved into the house, but it's going to be fine. Give us a bit of time or we'll get there.

17:47And they've absolutely done that with Bells on the season. Last season was phenomenal. You want an owner that cares, and more importantly, you want an owner with deep pockets who doesn't mind spending money. And he's done absolutely both of those things, even with the threat of everything to do with PSR and what's been thrown his way. The one, just you saying that about which side you take, and with the great respect of sporting directors or global heads of football, whatever it's titled, we shouldn't really know too much about them, should we? they should get on with the job you know what I mean to kind of pull in one direction no one's going to I'm rooting for the sporting director I mean as a take on it down the pub will you make she'd be like what?

18:23who? well done and you'd go either the manager or the owner or hopefully together there's and Michael Edwards at Liverpool was a man that I've known for a very very very long time he's been quite open at times when we've chatted about bits and bobs and this is not betraying any trust or anything like that and he talks about when obviously Jurgen Klopp and the change in his reign at Liverpool. And what Michael's job is, is that conduit between the ownership and the manager. And the manager might want certain things. The ownership kind of goes, well, we can't really do that. The person that says no to the manager is the fellow in the middle.

18:58So when you're in a position potentially where this day-to-day relationship starts to become you constantly saying no to someone, that's always going to breed resentment, frustration, because to jump above and go to the owner is a slightly different thing. these men are put into these jobs to deal with agents, to deal with contracts, to deal with negotiations. And they've got to be very strong to say, well, you might want this, but we've looked at all this and we think we should go here. So you start off one job and you've got a hotline to your boss and then suddenly somebody else is put in the middle.

19:26You can understand, Chappas, can't you, why that would cause problems for you in terms of the overall communication within the club. I guess what we're maybe struggling to understand or wondering how it's happened is that he's come out, Nuno, and started doing his own comms, basically. He's doing his own spinning, almost. And that's where it looks like it's not going to have a happy ending. I can't see it lasting all season where it's kind of Nuno's camp not talking to the other camp, because at some stage, that'll come to a head. At some stage, something will happen that means that it'll blow up.

19:59And given that slightly more combustible side, to use your word, about Nuno and what we've seen, shows that he'll probably take this for a while, but he won't take it forever. But then on the flip side of it is going back to what we said about the job that he's got, and he was quite categorical and calling it absurd that he'd walk away from it. He's in an elite club of 20 people that around the world, everybody wants to come here to have one of those 20 jobs. Everybody on the planet wants to come and have one of those 20 jobs. It would be madness of sorts to say, thanks I'm leaving over a kind of principal take over Adama Traore I mean but but generally if that if that is where where the sort of falling out began with just by saying it it sounds ridiculous is it also to do with his continued communication with Marco Silva and also having allegedly conversations with Postacoglu as well.

21:00Is that, you know, you could see why you might get a little bit insecure about your job. Obviously, they played Palace at the weekend. And you're coming up against, I mean, Oliver Glasner, I think, has got a year left on his contracts. Brendan Rodgers is another name that's been chucked around, Jose Mourinho. But maybe that's, if you are a billionaire businessman, maybe it's your want to keep your employees on their toes and kind of go, he's doing a good job. What do you mean he's doing a good job? I'm doing a good job. Yeah, you are, but he's also doing a good job. Just keep doing your good job and everything will be rosy.

21:30I mean, he's a naturally combative fella, isn't he? I mean, there were pictures of him sat watching the game, as I said, against Brentford. They were fantastic. But every time he panned across, I kept thinking, you are winning, you know. There's several goals up here. He kind of just sat there expressionless and then at the end he's smiling and clapping and he's off. So he's undoubtedly a demanding man to work for. But I guess you don't become as successful as he has without being so utterly demanding of everyone around you. And Nuno either gets on with it, maybe compromises to a certain degree, or he doesn't, and he's gone before the end of the season.

22:06I mean, you mentioned Jose Mourinho being one of the names linked, if Nuno was to go. Can you imagine? I mean, oh my God. I mean, oh my God. Marianakis and Jose Mourinho. I don't know what you're talking about. I think that's a beautiful combination. Honestly, it's perfect. Match made in heaven. Good grief. I mean, the other thing in all of this, and I was talking to Sammy Mockbell as well yesterday, the BBC Sport Journalist. He was saying what he had heard from around and about, Nuno's gone to the top of several other. You talk about 20 jobs and everybody wanted them. He's gone to the top of several other clubs in the Premier League of their list if they were to make a change.

22:49So I think he'll be all right. Oh, I mean, whichever way it pans out, chatting about managers, and this is a broader point about managers, there's a story that a friend of a friend told me about David Wagner coming out of Huddersfield, who was obviously very, very close to Jurgen Klopp. They've been on this wonderfully emotional journey, and the Premier League gets fired. The story goes that Jurgen rings and goes, congratulations. And he goes, what? He said, you're a millionaire. Well, yeah, but I haven't got a job. Yes, but you did a good job. you got paid well and you've been paid off well you're fine so there is it which sounds so very cynical but there is there is an element of that yeah Nuno Nuno would be highly coveted at home and abroad with what he's done it's like that whole thing isn't it the whole girlfriend boyfriend thing I'll be the one to tame him I'll I'll I'll make sure that you know he does as we know as we know never ever ever happens yeah no always ends in disaster I could think of I could think of plenty of difficult managers who seem to keep, without going back to an earlier conversation, who seem to keep getting jobs.

23:51And one person's difficult is another one's kind of fascination, isn't it? That's how you see these people set up. And the lifespan of a modern football coach slash manager is different to what it was a decade ago, maybe five years ago. So the fact that he's got a decent body of work under his belt of forest, off the back of doing very, we forget, obviously, the job that he did at Wolves and obviously Spurs was a slightly different time for him. But there were question marks in the Forest fans about when Nuno came in, about what he would bring. Do you think it also throws up, and it's not maybe a conversation for right now, the whole kind of relationship with directors of football or whatever performance, whatever they're called, you know, the person that is kind of doing the transfers and bringing in the players and the owners and the manager, you know, it really has evolved so much in the last five to ten years that and that every club, you know, has to have somebody now in that position.