Red Ball v White Noise: Should cricket ditch The Hundred?

0:01Queen Carvanha stood haloed by the morning sun. An army hung on her every word.

0:08Barney Ronay:My champions! I have sold my chariot on Carvanha! T 'was a lovely SUV, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it! Tonight, we feast! An offer you can feast on. Sell your car today on Carvanha. Pick up fees, mail, fly. This is a Global Player original podcast. Hold in! And would you believe it? It is Mohamed Saraj. It is a famous win for India. This series is tied two apiece. Well, once again, England's men had us on the edge of our seats in what's been described as the greatest test series since the 2005 Ashes. a series that felt like it restored some of Test cricket's magic.

1:01And yet, less than 24 hours after the dramatic end to that five-test series, which itself had been crammed into just 44 days, the bright lights, the colourful kits and the loud music of the 100 began. It's brought in new audiences, tech money and always meant to complement Tests, the gateway drug to the harder stuff, maybe. Can both formats coexist? Does Test cricket need more protection, particularly in an Ashes year? And is the 100 diluting or saving cricket? Welcome to The Sports Agents.

1:40The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

1:47Hello, just me again today. Gabby's still on holiday, but I say still, it's only been a week. but in a minute I'll be chatting to former England cricketer David Lloyd better known to you all as Bumble and the Guardians Barney Rone Elsewhere Newcastle look like they've lost out to Manchester United as Benjamin Sesko appears destined for Old Trafford I mean I'm gobsmacked that Manchester United are still able to sign people but anyhow what could that mean for Liverpool's pursuit of Alexander Isak we chatted about that on Tuesday with the Athletics' George Culkin You can catch up with that and all of our past shows on YouTube, Global Player or wherever you get your podcasts.

2:26You know, Newcastle aren't Man United. They do have the Champions League. They don't have the wage structure. They don't have the cachet. They don't have the global presence. Not yet. That's what they want. But Manchester United have the history.

2:38Barney Ronay:I mean, that's not something anybody at Newcastle wants to admit, but it is a reality. Before we get on to the cricket, let me just tell you about the weekend edition. That will feature an exclusive chat with Chris Powell. He's just left his role as assistant coach at Sheffield Wednesday. That club at the moment falling apart. Unpaid wages, transfer bans, stands are closed as well. So if you stick around to the end of this episode, there's a little preview of that chat. Hit subscribe and follow, by the way, wherever you're listening or watching the pod so you don't miss that drop on Friday afternoon.

3:13Also, next week, we've got a Premier League Q &A coming up. Send in your questions for that via email, thesportsagentsatglobal.com on our socials, or check out the very smart new Google form in the episode description. Now though, let's talk cricket. David Bumble-Lloyd and the Guardian's Chief Sports Writer, Barney Ronay, are with us.

3:38David, Barney, thank you very much, both of you, for joining us. in what I really want to be a celebration of cricket, but I'm sure we'll go down into some criticisms as well. Because we are, David, aren't we? We are coming off the back of the greatest series for 20 years between England and India. Yeah, I mean, it was incredible, five matches and crammed into six weeks. And, you know, that word that you use there, celebration, and I keep getting asked about Test Match Cricket and the 100. And, you know, I'm an open mind about all this in that the 100, I watched it last night and I saw it the night before.

4:13There were a lot of people watching. And so it is popular. And that word celebration, I've said that if we could just squeeze it a little bit more into September, and then the 100 will be a celebration of everything that's gone on before. So that we could look after every type of supporter. The supporter who wants Red Bull, Test Match cricket, county cricket. And I'm a massive county cricket fan, by the way. and then the celebration at the end, we'll have a load of fun and we'll play the 100. I have to say, David, I'm very open-minded with you along those lines, actually. And I do wonder, Barney, sometimes whether one of the things that cricket seems to be doing at the moment is kind of eating itself by constantly talking about the pros and cons of all the different formats.

5:00Barney Ronay:Yeah, that's definitely the case. But it's understandable because the sport makes no sense whatsoever. ever. No other sport has this many different forms of itself, competing with each other, overlapping the same players, playing for different teams against each other. It's an absolute shambles, to be honest. You would not design this, and nobody's really fixed that up. And they're totally contrasting as well. I mean, I was at the Oval for the five days, and it was just an absolute joy. It had everything. It had art, politics, maths, history, comedy, low drama, farce. It was a kind of physical ballet.

5:41Barney Ronay:I mean, test cricket is not just a great sport. It's one of the greatest things humans do. But at some point, we've kind of lost faith in the idea that that thing can be sold to people. It's a thing you see a lot in sport, the idea that if something's difficult, we can't possibly sell it to young people, which I think is really cynical and really bothers me. I don't think it's true. I don't think young people are as stupid as marketing surveys like to make them out there's there's this stat that's parroted which we've been hearing for years which has since been disproven which has been picked out by various cricketing administrations that young people only like things on youtube they only like six second clips just not true go and watch a superhero franchise movie they're four hours long i can't watch them my kids can because they have longer attention spans than me and but do you know what barney i completely agree with you on that i i sort of thing there are always two sports that i was always told by people in broadcasting oh that's they're very old people's sports are those racing and golf that's what i was always told oh right well i mean where are we going to get eyeballs there if you go to a race meet that big race meeting cheltenham aintree whatever if you go to the golf there are sound like an old fire there are a lot of young people there it is a diverse crowd those things you know and yet we're spoon fed and there are lots of young people and a diverse crowd at test cricket as well yeah it's kind of backfill logic i find with cricket people want an outcome they want to create a shorter form you can sell for an instant paycheck so you create a kind of logic that will justify it and which doesn't stand out it's one of the problems that the hundred has i used to think the problem with cricket was run by marketing people but i now think the problem is that it's run by really bad marketing people who are incredibly mediocre and has been for generations from the people who got into bed with alan stanford the disgraced imprisoned con man to the people who took the biggest check they could find and decided to put cricket at the top of the demand curve no one can see it but we get money that's not a good future plan it's just been very badly run and i'm actually the hundred it puts people's backs up it alienates people and it shouldn't do that because of the astonishingly deceitful gush in the way it's marketed, the way it pretends to be.

7:57Barney Ronay:Oh, suddenly we were interested in women's cricket. If you don't like the 100, you don't like women's cricket. Absolute nonsense. It reminds me of petroleum companies greenwashing. Like, oh, now we're really interested in renewable energy. No, you're not. You're just trying to sell something. Women's cricket absolutely could have a massive investment without the 100. It's not reliant on the 100. It's not reliant on a strange plastic form that the ECB tried and failed to sell as a new piece of ip i'll come back to 100 a little bit later on can i go back to the test stuff as well david because 12 months ago on this podcast we would have been having a discussion about how it had been a really underwhelming summer for england's men you know they'd had two or three test match series against west indians in sri lanka it was it wasn't a sort of bums on seats summer really so the question is how does test cricket reach the heights that we've seen this summer and hopefully we will see this winter if you can't always have the big three involved well the big three are taking all the money aren't they and i think you've got to you've got to look after the the less wealthy nations who don't have the big broadcast deals and you know i'm with barney that it'd be much more helpful if we were on terrestrial television it'd be very very helpful that way but it's not the way that people would buy the product if you know what I mean there's bidders and it seems to be Sky have been the major bidder but it would be very helpful if if we could have a lot more on terrestrial television but he doesn't seem to have had that appetite from a playing point of view to playing test match cricket and you've seen it from both these teams this summer it is the be all and end all I've been fortunate, I played test match cricket briefly, absolutely fantastic and it's a gruel it is hard work, it's graft and you've got the batters who are the prima donnas and you've got the fast bowlers who are the workhorses, I mean fast bowlers they're going to get injured and they are thrilling, when you've got a fast bowler, one of the reasons I played cricket and it might be madness that to come up against somebody rapid and forget team.

10:15It's me and him. I'm 20 yards away. He's rapid. It's Andy Roberts. It's Wayne Daniel. It's Garth LaRue, anybody. And it's me and him. And I forget my teammates. And so it's that thrill of playing the game. And I've seen that thrill from these players that have played this five-max series. The other thing I just want to mention very quickly, Old Trafford and about young people. I walked round the ground at Old Trafford. There were impromptu games of cricket under the stands everywhere. Yeah. Everywhere. With youngsters at primary school and senior school. And I thought, we've got that much area to put a place in the next.

11:01There's necks there at Old Trafford. About eight of them. I mean, 12 of them. Kids, go and have a go. Go and play. and they'll organise themselves with tennis balls. And I know the health and safety will come in, oh, you can't play with this and can't play with that. They will organise themselves as they did around the ground with spectators walking amongst them with a pie and a pint. It was great. Do you know, and it's the whole ecosystem, Barney, of Test cricket. It's the cultural side of Test cricket, of being there. I mean, I can remember as a kid going off for 40 minutes when it may have been a bit of a lull.

11:36and hitting a ball and there'd be 50 other kids doing the same. And that's also, Barney, isn't it, where the phrase is, Flintoff will empty the bars because everybody goes, right, well, it's not a lull now. I'm going to come back and I'm going to watch it. This is all part of the ebb and flow of sport.

11:53Barney Ronay:Yes, and I think cricket needs to have more confidence in itself that it is good and it will work. Like the 100 will work and be fun and good, and it is good, but it's not because it's the 100. It's because cricket is good. It's a really good sport and people like it. And whatever form you marketed to that degree and sold to people and advertised would fill houses. The problem is it's created this terrible confusion of formats, dates, internal warfare that isn't good for the sport, where you have to take a position on which form you prefer, where certain parts of the cricket public are alienated by other parts.

12:34Barney Ronay:And it's totally pointless. and unnecessary and you see players coming through now who it's really hard for them to develop watching Jacob Bethel play in that test was really painful because he is a kid and I don't think he should have been selected I think that was cruel but he just hasn't played cricket and he should be playing cricket but there's not an obvious pathway and you need to develop that kind of talent he looked confused which is astonishing because he's looked utterly clear in everything he's doing up to that point and it's really harmful he could make a very easy life just being content in meaningless leagues around the world and that would be great but nothing of any worth will be created by it and actually at times david during this test series you know i know england and rob key the the manager managing director of england men's cricket it's about you know workload and protecting bowlers but so many of it i mean bethel's a slightly different case in that he isn't a fast bowler but so many of the big fast bowlers one of their big problems is away from actually playing in a test match they don't seem to be allowed to bowl no and i think that's also in football as well that the the people are saying you get into the red zone and you need to rest and you need to recuperate and you need to prepare for the next game which will be in two weeks time getting back to jacob bethel it's extraordinary that he is a 21 year old who this summer prior to that test match had faced 65 red balls all summer.

14:03He's a victim of the structure. And I understand this red zone situation. However, I think they could play more than they do. Can you imagine, David, your 20-year-old self, your 21-year-old self being told that you couldn't play for, you know, Lancashire against Hampshire? sure yeah and i was with wazimakram last week and he talked about being 21 he said i wanted to play every game of cricket that was imaginable anywhere i just go and play anywhere 21 year old wazimakram he said when i got to 28 29 he said i had to just look after myself because i couldn't do it all the time and that's as good as it gets he's you're even picking a world 11 he's in there wazimakram So for a young kid, as a batter, you've got to play.

14:56Barney Ronay:It's not just Bethel as well. There's Ray and Ahmed, almost stuff like that. But I'm really pleased with him. He's kind of reinvented. You know, he's found a way. He's found a way to play. And that's really great. I've got Ray and Ahmed in my first Ashes team. Have you? What's your team? And I've got Ray and Ahmed in. But not everyone can do that. I don't know what happens to Bethel now. Why has this kid not come back and just had a great summer, playing constantly, developing his talent. It's really wasteful. And it's because we have this kind of battle of formats in a sport that is kind of eating itself and doesn't have clear governance, doesn't know what its priorities are, how to monetize itself, is convinced it needs to monetize itself, but doesn't know how to do it.

15:40And we'll have more from David and Barney after the break. The Sports Agents. Best thing that's ever happened to you financially. Go. Easy. Sold my car on Carvana. Amazing offer. Really? I hit 200 on the scratcher. Did the scratcher come to your house and hand you a check? No. How many scratchers did you hit to get that? I hit a button on Carvana.com once. Okay, that's fair. It's like the lottery, except you always win. Not like the lottery at all, actually. Exactly. Inexplicably good. Offers worth bragging about. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

16:25You wonder, don't you? Because what happened, David, was the 100 teams were auctioned off. And that money, you know, a huge chunk of that money will be fed back to counties. And they'd get 400 ,000 today, each of them, from the sales of the 100 teams. But that isn't going to simplify anything. because with new owners of 100 teams, they will want to make them the priorities. So the counties will get some money, but the game then becomes more complicated. And I have to hold my hands up and admit to listeners, I have been involved with Manchester Originals in the early stages of the 100, but now I just see it getting more complicated.

17:10Well, the owners, particularly at Manchester, have bought 70%, haven't they? Yeah. And we had a meeting with the chairman who's just left, and he said that the club would get net from that sale 33 million. Well, the club's in debt to 30 million, but they'll be able to service that debt the way that Mr Hansen taught, that 20 million will be written off, we can handle the 10 million without a problem, and they would have 10 million to spend on other things. now I can only surmise that with particularly the Indian owners to get it broadcast back into India the 100 will go it'll be a T20 franchise competition and if anything to do like the IPL it will expand we've got eight teams so I wouldn't be surprised if eventually we've got 12 teams which will service the country much better which I'm afraid will mean that the T20 blast will disappear you can't have two competitions exactly the same and so we will have fallen into line with the rest of the cricketing world that we have a franchise t20 competition and then the next thing on the horizon will be a champions league of t20 franchise but then you think well who's going to play for who because he plays for them but i also play for them and i play for them and that's a confusion to me and i watched the game last night and you know the aside that i'll put into this and i'll be as brief as i can the game has been dying since i started in 1963 it's been dying since 1963 and what i see now as an old stager is a very vibrant game it's a fabulous game and it's not administered properly.

19:02The people in charge are sort of flying by the seat of their pants. And so there needs to be much more uniformity with that. But I can see it turning into a T20 competition, having more teams, which are the teams you can say, well, there'll be one at Chelmsford, there'll definitely one at Taunton and one up at Durham for a start. And why not Scotland? That would be fabulous. Have Scotland in. Yeah, there's plenty of money in Scotland. basically in Aberdeen or Dundee I think yeah I'm glad you said the game was dying since since you started in 1963 because I always feel with my other hat on that the BBC has been looking for a young audience ever since I joined in 1996 and I was only I was only 23 back then but there but it is always the just history repeating itself isn't it the problem is Barney it just gets more it gets more and more complicated and you made this point earlier and I I was at the game last night david and i went with someone a big group of us i went with someone who hadn't been to cricket before and she went so how does this work i said well this is so this is 100 balls and blah blah blah well what's what's t20 then so well that's 20 overs okay so what how many balls so that's 120 balls okay and the thing on monday when india won what what i've so well that isn't that That isn't a limit on the number of – and actually, you know, we as us three can talk Barney as cricket lovers, but if you try to bring somebody new into the current state, it's a bloody hard and long explanation.

20:39Barney Ronay:Not just somebody new. I find – I've been watching The 100. I watch it. I still can't really understand what's going on. What's the scoreboard? What does that mean? Why is it so badly designed? Well, do you know what? I've told this story before as well. The very, very first game at the Oval, which again was Oval against Manchester, the very first game. And again, I went with someone who hadn't been to cricket before. But interestingly, they looked at the 100 scoreboard and found it quite easy to understand. And I went, well, I actually, I prefer to look at that one, which is that big oval, you know, the massive scoreboard at the Oval.

21:18And they were like, well, where the hell do I begin with that as a scoreboard? At least I get runs and balls. and I understand that. But yeah, sorry, go on.

21:26Barney Ronay:I agree the 100 as a format is not going to last. It is an incredible act of arrogance to try and reinvent how it's going to work. And let's be honest, it was a commercial punt. Someone came up with an idea. I mean, I think we know who. And it's like first idea on the back of an envelope. You don't go with the first idea. The ECB did. And they've never got over failing to monetize T20. You know, inventing something like that and then watching the IPL grow and become this instrument of power has always tortured the ECB. Missing that gave us the 100. The idea was that this would be a piece of IP that would be distinct and would be so good that the rest of the world would want to roll it out.

22:08Barney Ronay:It would go to the Olympics. It would be played in New Zealand and Australia and other countries eventually. That's not happened. It's not an improvement. It's just a confusion. The stats don't feed into other leagues properly. So if you're playing and it doesn't really make any sense, you can't really judge what's happening. So it will go. And I think that'll be a huge improvement. I think it's really easy to be hostile to the new owners. And so who are these people? They're tech companies. Do they have the interest of English cricket at heart? But do the people who've been running English cricket for the last 120 years have English cricket at heart?

22:40Barney Ronay:I mean, Davis has been dying since the early 60s. He's been dying since 1881 when the ashes was about cricket lying. Cricket is dead. The sport survives somehow. despite the people who run it and i don't mind some people coming in who know how to run it properly who the ipn is a competition for people who love cricket and has been very good and develops players and creates theater and if it can be run anything like that i really don't think it's bad the other thing is that i live in a village up in north yorkshire way up north yorkshire moors i live in a small village we've got four teams yeah we put four teams out and were awash with juniors because it's a well-run club.

23:21You know, I've never seen the game as vibrant as it is. And then we can move on to saying that next year, including the one women's test, there are five test matches in the south of England and nothing north of Nottingham. And this is an unbelievably vibrant area in Northumberland, Lancashire, Cheshire, Yorkshire. An unbelievable area for the amount of cricket that's played. And I'm afraid that we're shortchanged. We don't have test cricket next year. Absolutely, David. I mean, I don't know what it's like where you are, Barney, with club cricket, but I'm in the Cheshire area and boys' and girls' cricket seems to be absolutely thriving.

24:07Barney Ronay:Well, that is strange, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, it's true. I live in central London. Cricket's invisible. People don't know it exists. Harry Brook could walk down the street in Lewisham and no one would know who he was. And yet, it's where the money is and where the hospitality is. So there will be endless lords and oval tests. Because, I mean, test cricket is essentially funding the 100. Let's not forget that. It does need its hospitality dollars and its full houses. But it seems very strange. I mean, Yorkshire has as many cricket clubs as the whole of Australia, doesn't it? I mean, the game really does thrive among normal people outside of the southeast.

24:44Barney Ronay:In the southeast, it's only played by private school boys and girls. I mean, I would say it's pretty working class up here. The other mischief that I always throw out there that, you know, I worked for Sky for years, for 20 odd years, and I've never appeared on terrestrial television. How come everybody knows me? I can't go anywhere. In a pub, in a supermarket, a petrol station. How come you know me? You know, I keep hearing, oh, nobody knows who Ben Stokes is. Well, how come they know me? Everyone's seen the YouTube clip of the Geoff Thompson call. I think that's probably it. Thompson to Lloyd.

25:21And hit badly there that time. That's a nasty one. Agonite. Agonite. Back to the England men's team, though, before we finish. At the end of this series and how they have played and the roller coasters and the ups and the downs and so on and so forth, do you think this series, David, has made them better equipped for what is going to come this winter down under? Yeah, and so Harry Brook played wonderfully well. He played brilliantly, got out, and that was instrumental in losing the game. So let's fast forward to January 8th at the Sydney Cricket Ground and he's in there, he's got 100 and England needs 70, he will see it differently.

26:08You know, you learn from your mistakes. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. You learn from your mistake. A batter has one chance. Now, the great players, and I'll tell you about Vivian Richards, your Brian Larras, your Sachin Tendulkar, knew full well that you've got one chance and you've got to be savvy. You've got to be mentally strong and tough and savvy. how do I win this game?

26:33Barney Ronay:Yeah, I agree. Knows when to change down a gear and to say, right, the game has changed now. I've got this. So, David, if you sort of mentioned that on your other pod, you'd put Ray and Ahmed in at eight. So is your 11th, I'm going to try and guess this now, and let's see. So, presumably Crawley, Duckett, Pope, Root, no. All right, you may have gone different three, right. But Root, Brook, Stokes, Smith, Ray and Ahmed, and then Atkinson, Wood, Archer. Atkinson, Kars, Archer, or Wood. Right. I think they will alternate. So who's me three? Who's me three? I've got a mead at three. I had a mead at three.

27:23Right, okay. I think he's a much improved player. He's sort of expanded his game He's a rock-solid character And he's churning them out in county cricket Because he's playing And he's captain And he's opening the batting I think he's a good player I just want to tell you something about great players About changing down But Barney says about just change down again Vivian Richards IVA Richards I'm umpiring And it's at Taunton and he just came to my end. He's at the non-striking end and he said words that have stuck with me forever. I'm just having five minutes to myself.

28:09I mean, such an explosive player and he would just drop a gear. I'll just block a few now and then I'll go again. Fabulous. Do you know what, David? I'm going to leave that there because you've managed to talk about Viv Richards and Wasim Akram, who are just two of my most favourite cricketers ever. And still, I see Wasim and I just go to jelly, basically, after everything that he did for Lancashire as well. So neither of us, Barney, are going to beat Viv Richards, Wasim Akram.

28:40Barney Ronay:No, I haven't got a then-Viv-said-this-to-me story. Lovely to see you both. Thank you both. Thank you. Thank you a lot. Take care.

28:54The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

29:00That's it. Thank you very much to David Lloyd and Barney Ronnais. Don't forget, again, that Premier League Q &A we've got next week. Send in your questions via email, thesportsagentsatglobal.com on our socials or on our new Google form in the episode description. You can catch up with all of our episodes on YouTube, Global Player, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hit subscribe or follow and please leave a review. And as promised, I'll leave you with a flavour of tomorrow's interview with Chris Powell on our weekend edition. That will be available from Friday afternoon. Thanks for listening.