Red Roses win Rugby World Cup - how far can cowboys, Lionesses & Ilona Maher momentum take us?

0:02Gabby Logan:This is a Global Player original podcast.

0:06Katy Daley-Mclean:It's a once in a lifetime watching England win a World Cup on home soil in any sport.

0:14Gabby Logan:England, world champions, dreamland in their own back garden.

0:22Katy Daley-Mclean:And it's not often the whole squad celebrate by crashing our post-match coverage. Congratulations! Hannah Bottom is in the studio. All hell's breaking loose as we expected it might. These women will be doing this for some time, I imagine. We have the World Cup trophy in the studio. Does anybody want a moment of reflection? I'm not sure we're going to get that. But let's just enjoy the trophy. Don't leave it behind, whatever you do though. The Red Roses are something else. The defeats in the last two World Cup finals are forgotten. What they'll always remember is the noise of the crowd. A record crowd of almost 82 ,000 at the Allianz in Twickenham cheering for women's rugby.

1:11Katy Daley-Mclean:This was the grand finale in a summer of women's sport, after the Lionesses lifted the Euros trophy in July. So where will this momentum take us? Welcome to The Sports Agents.

1:37Katy Daley-Mclean:Well, I'm delighted. The morning after the night before, I'm joined by Katie Daly-McLean, England's World Cup winning captain in 2014 for a very special bonus episode of The Sports Agents. Well done, Katie, for getting up this morning and talking to me. How are you? I mean, it must have been a big night.

1:54Gabby Logan:To be honest, Gavi, I'm surprisingly fresh. A couple of Guinnesses, got to see some of our old girls, so Grievous Red Roses, Danielle Waterman, Clay Allen, Sue Dorrington. So it was really, really lovely.

2:07Katy Daley-Mclean:Well, I'm glad you are. But you obviously, yesterday, would have enjoyed and had, I think, we'd have been drunk on the atmosphere, I think, yesterday. It was something else, wasn't it? But let's go back over the day, actually, because I think the memories of yesterday. Yes, the crescendo is lifting a trophy and becoming world champions. But there was so much to celebrate about that. That six weeks of rugby that kind of came up to that crescendo.

2:33Gabby Logan:I mean, there was. You think six weeks ago we were in Sunday under the opening game where we were smashing opening records and beating the previous record held by New Zealand for a World Cup final. And I think for me that set the tone. we knew women's rugby would be well received in england we knew there was always a traveling support but i suppose it was just to see what what could the scale be i think the tournament delivered on so many fronts you know the people we got to meet from samoa brazil uh japan the stories that came along the way it has been the most fantastic celebration of women's sport and and all the things that anybody who's been in rugby knows but to share it with the rest of the world.

3:10Gabby Logan:It's been wonderful.

3:12Katy Daley-Mclean:I can't believe we were doubting it. You said to me yesterday, we were having our team meeting in the Winnebago, the caravan in the car park at Twickenham. I kept saying, because we're going to go through permutations of what's going to happen post-match, and I said, if England win. I kept going, if England win. I just felt that week leading up to it, suddenly, while they were number one in the world and while they'd been dominant through the Six Nations with a little bit of a push from France maybe, you suddenly felt, well, Canada looked incredible against the Black Ferns. What if this doesn't go the way we all hope it will?

3:46Katy Daley-Mclean:But they delivered, Katie, yesterday on the pitch in a way that they haven't really kind of ramped up through the gears in this tournament.

3:53Gabby Logan:No, I totally agree. I think I was really, really confident at the beginning and Sarah Orchard was like, you need to keep this in check. And then like you say, after the France game and especially after that New Zealand-Canada final, where Canada were absolutely immaculate. I was like, oh, this might be tight-headed. I thought, and we were all kind of predicting one score. And then England came out the blocks. I have never seen England start as well as they did with so much intent. And I think Canada just couldn't get their game plan going. They couldn't get front football. All the things that we'd seen them do to other teams, England just almost nullified its source.

4:27Gabby Logan:And look, you want to win a World Cup, nobody remembers the performance, but how nice was it for them to win it with such a great performance?

4:34Katy Daley-Mclean:Yeah, I mean, at times it was kind of what the old England was, which was just, you know, brilliantly executing the defensive plan and, you know, scoring tries off driving walls and the line out firing. But actually the Ellie Kildun try, which kind of levelled the score, actually took it into the lead after Canada had gone into the lead.

4:52Gabby Logan:And there's Ellie Kildun breaking through. She's got the footwork. No one's touching her. She's not going to do it again. How does she do it?

5:02Katy Daley-Mclean:that moment of kind of mercurial brilliance I think that was needed as well yesterday you know kind of just to show that there is this huge amount of flair in this team that can express itself and do something that's not a play that's been preordained

5:16Gabby Logan:No you're totally right again I mean you've got lots of very good points it's like you've done this before no you're right like I think that's what made the game for me so brilliant we know England's packer dominant we know they can drive mores for fun But like you say The moments of Ellie Kildan Where she's stepping people She's beating players Like almost She's untouchable And I think for players like that Who've had a bit of a Rollercoaster tournament Let's be honest She had that quarterfinal game Where you thought Could this not be The tournament for Ellie And then she comes out Against France She's brilliant And then that little That try there was Everything World Cups need We won it in 2014 And we weren't particularly great But for England to do it For individuals to have Moments of brilliance Hannah Bottman Again I know she got a yellow but a impact, the scrum to be as dominant, all the things we've associated with England rugby to come and deliver.

6:06Gabby Logan:It was perfect.

6:07Katy Daley-Mclean:Bottoman just giving us all a little bit of a 10-minute kind of feeling of being on the edge of our seats because Canada came back into it, didn't they then? And that added a bit of jeopardy, I think, to what was looking like it was kind of going to be building a big score for England. So well done, Bottoman, for giving us that jeopardy. Telly needs that. Keep the viewers in. I haven't had the viewing figures through yet, but I'm looking forward to seeing what they are. I think that they will drop very, very soon. so let's talk about the atmosphere in there the crowd and i was chatting to somebody this morning who's an ex-wos player actually and it wasn't kenny and uh and he said you know when you price it properly real rugby fans come and now that is not to take away kind of from the big corporate days that happened at the six nations but kenny said to me the atmosphere was way better than a

6:49Gabby Logan:men's six nations match yesterday would you concur i 100 agree i spoke to a guy yesterday just you know as you do you chat to people and he said he felt that the women's game was a representation of the the grassroots community he felt it was people who came out to support rugby not like you say because they'd they'd come out for corporate hospitality and they'd come on the beers they'd come because they wanted to see rugby and i think there's no greater testament to the fact that it was over 50 000 in that bronze game between france and new zealand people yeah people had come to celebrate rugby the fact that I reckon 70 ,000 stayed for the trophy lift they wanted to be part of something special and I think what the Women's World Cup has done is it's attracted a different audience families young kids toddlers teenagers guys on stag do's there was a group of 70 old women there that were just here to celebrate women's sport they had no idea about the rules of rugby not a scooby but they had a glass of prosecco and they were living their best life and I just think we've reached a different audience that is potentially different to the men's but how much they celebrated the game yesterday.

7:53Gabby Logan:And to be part of that was really, really special.

7:56Katy Daley-Mclean:Yeah, and it really did kind of invoke memories for me of 2022 when the Lionesses beat Germany in the Euros final, which was obviously a pivotal moment for their progression. And you can't help but draw analogies because they're two different sports in terms of their progression. And rugby is very much more in its infancy in terms of the PWR and what's going on in the club game. And it would be naive to say, you know, you want 10 ,000 at every PWR game in the next season. then that's not going to happen right now. What can happen, do you think, from this in terms of the audience that's come to keep them there?

8:29Gabby Logan:It's interesting, isn't it? Because this is probably going to be the mark of how successful the tournament really is within England, is how many can we convert from an international Red Roses fan to a local club fan? Because you think, obviously, PWR spread around the country. You've got Sailor in the North, and then you've got everything in between. How do we get the information out to those people in their geographic hubs to come and support sale on the 26th of October when we play Leicester Tigers how do you let them know that there's Syries Gloucester is that opening game of PWR you know the final from last year so I think that's going to be a really interesting bit of work for the clubs but also from the league and how do you jump on the back of this because what we can't do is we don't play for the club leagues don't play for another month doesn't start until the 25th of October so that's a lot of time isn't it people to get back into normal life to kind of start to forget how good this was so i think there's a big opportunity there but there's also a lot of responsibility about making sure we convert this but hopefully you know women's rugby has shown a new face i think to the the world of sport so it's making it accessible again but it's that information knowledge is power isn't it so if there's no more can we get more there

9:38Katy Daley-Mclean:more reaction from katie after the break the sports agents The Sports Agents

9:45Gabby Logan:with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman

9:50Katy Daley-Mclean:One of the things that kind of was building as a narrative in the build-up over the week was I read quite a few articles and we discussed it as well as a group that the investment that the RFU have put into the Roses has been formidable since 2019. They've had contracts for 33 women and obviously that has obviously reaped the rewards on the pitch because of the success they've had in the six nations and there's clearly great strength in depth that England have. And had they lost yesterday, would that have sent a message out to other unions, well, don't bother investing because actually it doesn't get you the rewards.

10:25Katy Daley-Mclean:And I put the question to Maggie Prematch. It can't be as binary as that because otherwise a nation like Canada would never, ever, ever win in a World Cup because obviously their funding model is different. But having won, it does send a message, doesn't it, to Australia who hosts the next World Cup and say, look, invest in your women, invest in women's sport, because you will get the rewards on the pitch. But also, more importantly, it feels wider than that. You know, it's kind of societal as well, isn't it?

10:53Gabby Logan:It really is. And the interesting thing about funding and money is where you spend it. So I think what England have done, and you touched on it with PWR, that has been such a great talent pipe for them. So you can invest in your 33 Red Roses. There's been transitional contracts. So for girls who have been earmarkers, haven't talent, but maybe not yet. So to give them that opportunity, but they're playing regularly in PWR. I think for teams like Australia, how do you get your league system up to a level where you've got enough women playing, which then naturally will affect the talent at your top end?

11:24Gabby Logan:I think for all unions, that's a really interesting dilemma because you can't, England couldn't have just invested in their top end without what they had underneath and how you use that fundamental. But like you say, I mean, we sat on the call with the Canadian CEO. And I mean, he spoke so eloquently about how they've used that funding model. And maybe actually we don't need to be as traditional as the union has to pay. They can't fund it over a million pounds. That wasn't to say that the union didn't support them, but they needed more. And it was a way of finding it. And I wonder, maybe women's rugby now has an opportunity to do things differently.

11:56Gabby Logan:We don't necessarily need to be funded in the same way. But I think you're right, society, we want young girls to feel safe. We want them to have a place in society.

12:04Katy Daley-Mclean:And when you say that, that kind of triggers a thought when you say funding differently, you see the brands who are getting involved. And it's very interesting that a lot of those brands are directly kind of marketing to women and different kinds of women. You saw Abby Ward yesterday with her little girl on the pitch. And, you know, I know you interviewed a husband post-match as well. And that's very different to, you know, to the men's game, because obviously you can target women with pregnancy products. You can target women with a whole host of female only products. And so it's being clever, isn't it?

12:32Katy Daley-Mclean:how you how you attract the brands and how you keep them in a way that perhaps you know sport

12:37Gabby Logan:hasn't always thought outside the box totally agree i think it's it's a really interesting time i keep saying it but i think it is i think we've now got a moment where you've got the reach for brands to come in and say we're going to do this differently like you say a women's market is very different holly with clinique you know a makeup firm and i think again we talk about the young girls you want to influence that's really important to them so actually showing them you can do both you can be beautiful and glamorous and you can play women's rugby and also if you don't and you want to be totally authentic to you and make up isn't your thing that's also brilliant and i think the henna butter and meg jones sarah byr and holly aegerson the scale abby ward the scale of what we're covering now means there is really somebody for everyone yeah there's something

13:17Katy Daley-Mclean:for everyone and and i think you see that in all rugby it's you know it's for all different shapes and sizes and elona myer obviously when you talk about influence and and reach is you know is up there isn't she because not the best rugby player in the world but certainly the best at selling the game online and she came into the studio yesterday and said you know she just wants to see from this

13:37Gabby Logan:more fans coming to games even for those pwr games for the games in new zealand the club games like we need fans out there we need to start filling the stadiums more and it shouldn't be a record breaking number when we got we got 9 000 fans out should be record breaking every game and we should consistently get more and more people out because that's how we're going to make our living is by you buying the ticket, you coming in, getting the hot dog and the beer. We need that. So I hope that we see it through the growth of those professional leagues for the women so that they can call themselves professional athletes.

14:05Katy Daley-Mclean:It's interesting. My daughter said to me this morning, she didn't really message much during the day. She was watching the game with her girlfriends in Loughborough. She's gone back to uni in the house and all different sports they play in the house. And the first thing she said was, what was Alona Meyer like? What was she like? and I said well I interviewed her I didn't go out for a drink you know um I said she was perfectly nice she was really lovely she went oh good if you'd said you know she was horrible I would have been really upset and I and I and I think that's no Lois doesn't play rugby she lives in a house where people do play rugby and are interested in rugby but she she sees her as just a positive role model and you know she's clearly been on a one-woman crusade through this world cup hasn't she alone am I just attending all the knockout games with her camera crew let's not beat about the bush Katie you know there's something in it for Ilona yeah look and but look she's really

14:53Gabby Logan:authentic to that isn't she I think for me I think she's such again she's an interesting case because she's very different usually you see people who are the best of the sport with this profile she in that case isn't but like you say she's very much owned that space and she's going to be very confident and comfortable saying this is who I am and this is what I can do and look she was in Bristol she was at all the quarters we saw her and I think that's cool because she could have just tapped out when America went out. But to use her power for good to be promoting the game, she was obviously talking about PWR again.

15:21Gabby Logan:These are the kind of people we need because a reach is huge.

15:25Katy Daley-Mclean:The Red Roses on their lap of honour. I expected one or two of them to join me in the studio, Katie, but I didn't expect all of them to come in and bring the trophy with them and pile on. I didn't know where that was going to end. I was thinking, are they here for the rest of the show? we're going on fair at 6.35. It's now about 20 passes at 15 minutes. What am I going to do with them all? But it was just a sheer moment of joy.