Ritual, Rice & Reinforced toilets: Sumo comes to London

0:02This is a Global Player Original Podcast.

0:3070 kilos of rice per day. That's all of them, collectively, I hope. As other sports are determined to go global in this age of commercialisation and constant reinvention, sumo has remained remarkably unchanged, a sport rooted in discipline, respect and spiritual symbolism. So from its uncompromising code of conduct to its deep connection with culture, we explore why sumo's return here is more than just an event. It's a statement. Welcome to The Sports Agents.

1:08The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Hello, Mark. Hi, Gabby. You know how we always like to give people a little peek behind the actual recording of this? Yes. So normally, normally with that little opening that we do, we just kind of start and whoever starts just starts. There's no sort of order, is there? No. Except you told me that thunderous is one of your favourite words. So could you do that? Do you have a list of favourite words? It might not be in my top ten, but it is a word that whenever I see it or say it, I don't know, it's onomatopoeic almost, isn't it? It has that feel to it.

1:50Yeah. Yeah, this feels like Dictionary Corner all of a sudden, doesn't it? Hello, Susie. Have you ever done that? Yes, I have. Have you? Yes, I have. Yeah, I've done the original one. I actually did it back in the day with Richard Whiteley. Oh, wow. And Carol Vorderman. And I've done it with Colin and Rachel. And I've done Cats Does Countdown, which is a whole different thing with Jimmy Carr and the gang. So, yeah, it's good fun. And as you can imagine, a highly competitive experience. I was practicing words on the train to Manchester when I did it, when I did countdown, as if it's going to make a difference.

2:26Anyway, please stay with us if you think you've tuned into sports agents. I'm more interested in that. And then how many, like when you're sat there with Susie, because I've never done it, I think I'd be too nervous to do that. But how many of the words do you come up with yourselves? How many did you nick from Susie? I'd say probably 30 % yourself. Right. 70 % from Susie. Yeah, because she's always got one that you, oh, yeah. Yeah, what does that mean again? I would have got that. I would have got that with a bit more time. Yes, it's a Gaelic word for sleeplessness. Oh, I'm forever using that.

3:02So sumo coming up a little bit later, which is obviously where the Thunderous came from. And a few years ago, we went to Tokyo. We went to Japan on holiday with the kids when they're about 12. And one of the things I was determined to do was go and watch sumo training. you can book in and go to a stable and it's as disciplined as the training itself you're not allowed to talk you've got to be there for three hours and my overarching memory is of the smell of this broth we'll talk about later just kind of like seeping out of the little kitchen at the back which is really calorie laden made me feel a bit nauseous it's a strange experience watching this training is it because yeah it's silent and there's just this odd kind of sound it's it's very very um if i didn't have two 12 years in there i'd have found it quite cathartic and spiritual instead i was like getting nudged the whole time going can we go can we have your phone i'm i i cannot wait to to talk to them about all the traditions and what that means in this modern sporting world of taking events to different countries and yeah Where you find, because from everything that I've read on this so far, there is, they are struggling to find the next generation within Japan.

4:20And other countries have tried to get a lead on Japan, really, and sort of take over it a little bit in terms of how good their own athletes are. So I'm fascinated by some of the discussions that we're going to have on that. And speaking of tradition, I think it's worth pointing out that we're coming off an international break and going back to the Premier League this weekend. And the tradition of having a break in September and October, separate breaks, is gone from next year. So there will be a joint break end of September and October, which means two weekends off the Premier League, which means a three week window there, effectively, without Premier League action.

4:58Well, not only without Premier League action, but more than likely without championship action, more than likely without some League One and League Two games as well. And we're just talking about from an English perspective. I mean, this is domestically across Europe. It will affect what gets shut down. And I also think other sports may now have to think where they schedule their big events. So one of the big things for the WSL is that its launch weekend is that first international break on the men's football side of things. Because then that has a lot of eyeballs. They won't be running out at Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, will they, that weekend?

5:35So where would they launch? Men's Super League Grand Final is the Saturday of the October international break. Yeah, it really does have a knock-on effect. So it will have a knock-on effect on lots of sports. And still, and still, the children of footballers won't be able to go on holiday with their daddies in October half term because it doesn't cover that period of the year. We never, ever had a holiday with my dad that wasn't in June. And then eventually, I think they just thought it'd be cheaper not to take us on holiday at all because we never had summer holidays. So, yeah, that's really, that is going to have a knock on effect for so much.

6:06I'm very excited about this weekend's return of the Premier League, though, because it always does feel like a long time this time of year when you just get into the swing of things. And there's an interesting kind of debate going around about which of the players who are going to be absent from the top two teams for the next five weeks or so will have the biggest impact. So obviously Alisson is injured for Liverpool and Odegaard is injured for Arsenal. And I think it's a no-brainer, isn't it? It's Alisson. Arsenal's benched now and their talent in midfield. They can replace him fairly easily.

6:39But I would be, and I always think in the past when Alisson has been injured, that Liverpool have more than adequately coped because they had Keevan Kelleher. He's now at Brentford. But now it's Mahmoud Ashvili, who would arguably anywhere else, bar maybe a couple of teams in the Premier League, if he was there, might be their number one in the Premier League. He is that good as Mahmoud Ashvili. I was listening, though, to an interesting podcast this week. not that ours isn't, and there was quite a dry discussion about the rise of the long ball, the goalkeepers kind of actually playing an assist almost, you know, and that because he's so left-footed against Chelsea, when players were playing the ball into him, he would be playing it back to his other foot.

7:29So if the ball was sent to his right foot, which just that extra half second allowed Chelsea to just kind of, you know, create a bit of havoc in the box. and I thought, what's worth watching out for? Certainly this weekend on Match of the Day. This is why I'm trying not to say anything, Gabby, because Liverpool play United on Sunday. I'm doing Sunday's Match of the Day. It has tended to be an utterly miserable experience for United going to Anfield. It ends careers as well, doesn't it? It ends careers. Managers get sad. Mind you, if you lose 7-0 at Anfield, I mean, there have been some horrific ones.

8:05The reason I'm bringing this to the party is hopefully just to give Ruben Amarim a little nudge. If he hasn't heard this podcast and he hasn't noticed the stats already, it's just an extra tactic for them to employ. Well, thank you. And I hope on Ruben Amarim's behalf, I hope that that analysis works wonders on Sunday. But it's just a it's the worst. It's the worst game. It's the worst. It's a horrible game. it just that's why you're wearing your Bears top today isn't it do you know I've got my Bears do you know they have won three on the bounce of Chicago they have won three on the bounce for the first time in five years in five years they've won three on the bounce Manchester United by the way under Roman Amarim still haven't won two on the bounce so in small steps that is my sporting world at the moment you can hit subscribe or follow the podcast wherever you're listening catch up on all of our past episodes on youtube global player or wherever you get your pods and you can get in touch of course the sports agents at global.com on email messages on social media or via the link in the episode description uh up next sumo i never thought i'd be saying that but it's come to london and we are all over it next the sports agents

9:28the sports agents with gabby logan and mark chapman Now, ahead of this weekend's Grand Sumo Basho at the Royal Albert Hall, you may have noticed the world's great sumo wrestlers have invaded London. They've been all over the place and attracting a lot of attention. I'm delighted to say that we have nine-time British heavyweight sumo champion Mandeep Singh Koundy and Head of Programming at the Royal Albert Hall, Dave Gambalon, to tell us all about what we can expect. Mandeep, David, thank you both for joining us. I have to start with you though, Mandy, because you were there at the Royal Albert Hall watching last night.

10:09How special was that for you? How emotional was that for you? Hi guys. Yes, it was incredibly special and incredibly emotional, not just for myself, but also my family who were joining me and got to see everything from start to end. It was very surreal. I imagine it was and I'm just chatting to Dave here in the studio about what it takes to put this on at the Albert Hall you said there were people involved who are actually part of the team that put it on back in 1991 because the first thing I said to you was from the proms and Nicole Scherzinger and a whole host of pop bands to sumo you know that's some kind of remit you have in your job yeah it's the broadest remit of kind of shows and entertainment and sport that we've had at the hall for over 150 years and the first time sumo ever took sumo wrestling outside of Japan was coming to the Royal Albert Hall in 1991 and we remain the only venue that's hosted a five-day Basho tournament.

11:11We've been trying to bring it back since 1991. Martin Campbell-White, who is one of the people who organised the tournament in 1991, is still involved and I was with him in Tokyo in May and he was there last night. We've had people in the team who have been working on bringing it back since 2007. so it's been a long time coming and hopefully it won't be another 34 years there are so many headlines about the size of the participants and therefore what that means for a venue such as yours dave in what you have to adapt and alter but i'm also interested in what you need to get right to respect the history and the culture of this sport?

11:56Well, no, exactly. We've been very keen to make sure this is treated with the utmost respect in terms of how we're staging the event. Sumo has a 1 ,500-year history. It is completely enmeshed within Japanese culture and the Shinto religion. It means it's more than sport to the Japanese people and to the sumo wrestlers. yesterday afternoon the dohyo the ring that they were fighting on was blessed in a ring blessing ceremony they added various different elements from japanese culture inside the ring and then and then filled the hole what is so exciting about bringing this five-day basho is that they're they're bringing those elements as well so they have brought sumo outside of japan before but more in an exhibition style format but this is as authentic as it comes without going to tokyo and watching it watching it and as mark said there the you know the headline grabbing kind of stories are all to do aren't they with with the size of the athletes and their demands physically what they what they need but also what you as a venue need to do to to adapt tell us some of the things that have been going on the albert hall yeah absolutely we've had to you know obviously there's stuff like language so we've had signage up in japanese in two languages everywhere we've got a whole new catering team in for backstage to to cook the vast amounts of rice and noodles and all of the things that that they're eating so they take on a lot of calories each day we've had to reinforce parts of the building because our normal chairs that we have say have our load capacity that is they will break if the sumo wrestlers sit on them i think the heaviest wrestler is is um the yokozuna who is 190 kilos it's quite incredible how how heavy he is and the great thing as well and last night what the audience really loved is the fact that sumo wrestling doesn't have weight divisions which is quite unique for for combat sports normally you wouldn't have a heavy weight fight a lightweight unless maybe it was a youtuber but last night we had a 60 kilo weight difference in one of the fights wow how much 60 60 kilo 60 kilos oh my god yeah it's a whole person oh yeah did the big guy win most of the big guys won but we did have one kind of david goliath situation yeah i bet the audience were kind of the audience were very loved go for the david oh yes mandy when when you are there then and you are watching this if you meet the wrestlers afterwards who are from Japan what what are they like with a foreign sumo wrestler such as yourself they're very very open very down to earth very humble as long as you get them at a time which is not close to the scheduled event we got there as a family and saw some of the wrestlers outside and in fact when I requested one of them for a photo I just maybe by culture asked him do mind if we have a hug and he said sure let's let's have a hug so I hugged him and then I said being a little cheeky do you mind if I see if I can pick you up and he said yeah go go ahead again this was a wrestler that everyone knows and loves as Toby Zaru the flying monkey so I lifted him up quite surprised that I could.

15:16How much did he weigh? Do you know how much he weighed? I think he'd probably weigh about the same as me around 140, 150. I tried to pick him up in the way then that he asked me. I couldn't. And so I just done a fireman's carry. And we got on so well that we might be having an opportunity to have a private audience with him in a few days time. Oh, wow. Because in Japan, they are absolute superstars, aren't they? The top sumo players are revered and known throughout the country like Premier League stars. For sure. And one of the most exciting things about this Basho is that we have the top 40 wrestlers in the world.

15:58The top division, we have two Yokozuna, which is the very top level. There's only been 75 Yokozuna level Rikishi in the history of sumo wrestling. So you're not guaranteed to ever have a Yokozuna at any one time. And we have two and they're both in the tournament and they're likely that they will face each other on Sunday to see who becomes the grand champion. So it's a really exciting opportunity for us to welcome. Yeah, you know, the best of the best. And Mandeep, I was reading about a young lad from Hull who's got himself into a stable in Japan. And there's a Ukrainian, I think, who's doing quite well as well.

16:32But the numbers are down, aren't they, of top sumo wrestlers in Japan at the moment. And they only accept one foreigner into each stable every year, don't they? Is it a concern at the moment, Mandeep, in terms of dwindling numbers? No, I wouldn't say so. It's actually designed as such that you have a cap so that it is the cream of the crop. It is a shame that they have this limit that you speak of where it can only be one foreign-born wrestler per stable of their 46-odd. But as we see from history, there are a number of those wrestlers who have become Yokozuna. Even Hoshori, one of the two current Yokozunas, is native Mongolian.

17:23Do you think, Mandeep, then, that that cap, whilst I think you used the word unfortunate, did they view it as vitally important to protect the history and the heritage and the tradition of their sport? I would say so, yes. Yes. But in terms of respecting their traditions, when we look at the complement, you have amateur sumo, which is almost the breeding ground for people then to move on to professional sumo if they fit the criteria. And amateur sumo is in over 80 countries, including Great Britain. And presumably the aim is that bringing it to Europe and I say Europe because I was listening to somebody on the news last night who'd come over from France to watch because there's a there's a fan base across Europe.

18:12And London was obviously partly because of your expertise, Dave, in bringing events to the Albert Hall. But London obviously was quite easily accessible for a lot of the countries in Europe. They would like more participants. They'd like the sport to grow in Europe. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they have an exhibition coming to Paris next summer. And I think the Sumo Association now want to get back out there into the world. They took a break. There was some tournaments that took place around ours in 1991. I think the first time they'd had an exhibition was outside of Japan, was in Paris. And I think Jacques Chirac was a massive Sumo fan, so he kind of forced that through.

18:50But then they took a long break and they kind of looked towards just the Japanese audience. But now they're very much keen to grow. because anyone who was there last night who has been able to watch the footage online will see it's just the most fascinating. And if you're a fan of sport, you're just going to love it straight away. It's so simple, so easy to understand. But the narratives, especially once you start to know the characters involved and their own stories and their sizes and the rivalries, it's like any sport. It's just brilliant to watch. And is it like a lot of countries that there's a competitiveness, obviously, to attract good athletes to lots of different sports?

19:25In Japan, are they keeping the kids interested, Mandeep, as far as you know? Are they finding themselves? I know rugby is big in Japan, and you'd imagine power to weight ratio. You'd have a similar draw, wouldn't you, for a lot of the forward positions? It's still their national sport. It's actually part of their university culture. So it's very much embedded in their culture. And as you touch upon, there's other sports that are also gaining in popularity in terms of rugby and basketball and such like. But sumo is still very much there for those people who would like to get involved. So you mentioned Amateur Sumo here in Britain.

20:07So how did you get involved in Sumo? And what is the interest and strength in depth of Amateur Sumo? I'll be honest with you, Mandy, by you, I've never had any other connection with somebody who does Sumo in Britain, to my knowledge. Well, there's only so much I can say. It's really something worth experiencing. So you're most welcome to come join me in a class that I deliver on a weekly at Brunel University. This would make great content. Isn't it? Can I start by just watching, Mandy? Yes, of course. Okay. Of course. Good. And then after lunch. It's been in the UK since 1985. 65 we have over 10 clubs from north to south so it is growing do the english clubs all observe the spiritual rituals as well is that very much part of what you do in the same way that a lot of martial arts it is all part it's not just going for a workout it's because you know you if you wanted to do a workout you could go and do a bit of greco-roman wrestling couldn't you or something that doesn't necessarily have the other stuff going on with it i'm not comparing the sports I was just going to say there's no comparison to sumo, but there are some rituals that are observed in terms of, for example, the Chirichozu, the pre-bout ritual.

21:31And there is an awareness of the common values in both professional and amateur sumo. But then we have to adapt as well so we don't do the salt throwing and we fight on canvas rather than on clay to make it a little more kinder when you land. Dave can I go back to the negotiations in bringing it over here was there any sort of pushback from some people connected to sumo in Japan in the same way whenever we talk about this on the sports agents you know talk about taking any sport abroad you know a Premier League game abroad there are going to be people going how dare you take our sport away from us I mean is is that exactly the same here?

22:13I think we weren't taking away from the schedule that they have. So it's quite different to, you know, AC Milan going to play Roma in America and actually being a Serie A kind of season game because we're fitting in between their schedule. So it's a two-month every other month schedule in Tokyo and the bash shows that they have. And financially, they're adding to their... Financially, it will hopefully be work for them. but of course the key thing that we had to get across to them is that we are taking it with the utmost seriousness and we are going to do everything we can to present sumo in its kind of full majesty and one of the ways that we were really able to get this across is by having hosted it we were very fortunate to have hosted it before because you have that trust and you have that knowledge the royal abert hall hasn't changed that much since 1991 in terms of the look the feel the the colour of the seats, the weight bearing of the roof.

23:10We haven't changed that much since 1871 on some of those elements. They could do it on the roof. So having someone like Martin there in the room with us when we went to Tokyo and we met them in their arena and had conversations with them about how we were going to stage the tournament, having Martin there who could kind of very much give us the stamp that we were doing this with the utmost seriousness, I think put us in the best position to be able to bring it back to the UK. Why do you think, and you must have known commercially this was going to be a success because you wouldn't have done it, but why do you think it has, and I've seen it everywhere, maybe because I'm aware that maybe we're going to talk about it, but also it just seems to have grabbed the imagination, doesn't it, over the last few days?

23:53Absolutely. And I mean, for those of us at the Hall, we've been working on it for a year and some of us for 20 years. but this week it seems to have we are having a real viral moment not only the amount of you know normal press and podcasts and broadsheet uh papers but especially since the wrestlers and the rikishi have landed in london because they are out there in their traditional clothes and the clothes that they have to wear whenever they're out in public there's brilliant photos of them on abbey road or that's such a good photo that that's such a great photo is that or riding line bikes or whatever it might be.

24:29And I think everyone, especially in London, who sees them out and about, that's really what's bringing everyone in. And hopefully as the tournament proceeds, because it's not a one-day event, it's a five-day tournament, hopefully by the time we get to Sunday afternoon, the UK and the London crowd will really have an idea of who these people are and have someone that they want to win. Have you got anybody going on chat shows or anything like that? Are they only Japanese speaking? Can they... There is some language skills within some of the Rikishi, and they're not all Japanese. So we have Mongolians, we have Ukrainians, we have Kazakhstanis, Russians.

25:08Do those foreign players all speak Japanese as well? Yeah, they all speak Japanese. They've all come through the Bayer system, so the kind of stable system, which is all based in Tokyo. And I was privileged to go and visit one of the Bayers in May this year and to see how they train on a daily basis. and they are truly remarkable athletes. That was one of the things. You mentioned the lad from Hull, didn't you, Gabby? But one of the things he has to commit to is learning Japanese. I think that's one of the criteria for getting in. Nicholas Tarasenko. Yeah, Nicholas Tarasenko for getting into that stable.

25:41He would have to commit to learning Japanese. If we were to watch this, Mandy, over the next two or three days, what happens in sumo that gets you off your seat when you're watching? like what should we be looking for i think it's just very gripping because it literally lasts for a matter of under 10 seconds like a a hundred meter sprint so it's it's the initial charge that's the most exciting almost like human ball fighting when they touch their fists down and then they go and then from there who gets the advantage and is able to absorb or attack and take the person either over the line or off balance and then that's it and you move that's it and you mentioned nick uh earlier nicholas tarasenko his father was there with me at the event watching on day one and dave is there genuine concern that if you are sat in the front row you could get landed on members of the team in the hall have been slightly concerned we've obviously spoken this through we made sure we've done rigorous planning in terms of audiences being safe but there's always an element of risk in in some sports like this uh so there is a waiver when you when you've bought the tickets i mean they are the most expensive tickets in the hall i think some people would quite like it well exactly and if you watch if you watch videos there is the occasion where a wrestler will come off at speed but we do also have the judges and the sumo association in front of the audience so they sit there so we didn't have any issues last night and I'm very hopeful that we'll get through to Sunday without any issues.

27:19I mean, I've never said this before in my life, but I would actually quite like to see your risk assessment. I think that could be quite a good read. I'm just thinking of other practical things, because I've been fortunate enough to be backstage in the Albert Hall, and you've just got normal shower cubicles, haven't you, I think? Yes. I mean, do they get showered up? I've been fortunate, Mandeep, also to see the athletes training in Tokyo, and they get very sweaty very quickly, don't they? Very sweaty. So do they wait till they go back to their hotels or have you managed to get some kind of bathing?

27:50So we've got them across various different spaces based on their rankings. So the top two Yokozuna have got, they'll be using the same dressing room as, you know, Eric Clapton would be using when he plays at the hall in the kind of principal dressing rooms. And as they go down the rankings, they're more in the rooms that we might have whole orchestras or choirs based in. And those have kind of more locker room style feels to them. So we haven't had any issues on that front. But we've had to put in additional carpeting, additional matting on the floor because they walk around barefoot. Most of the time we've had to put down temporary flooring everywhere.

28:24So there's been a lot of thought and planning gone in by all of the teams. That would be the same. If we did the sports agents live at the Royal Albert Hall, Gabby would be in the Yokozuna, Eric Clapton one, and I'd be in the locker room further down. Oh, we've already had that chat affair. Yeah, don't worry about it.

28:41going forward will this be regular day are you able to tell us is there a is there a multi-year deal or does it depend on this or are there other factors there's no firm plans at the moment uh we're just going to see how this week goes and make sure that everyone is happy that as i say they're already traveling to paris next year and i think their plans are maybe to go to other places around the world and their schedule is such that they have to be in Tokyo or in Japan every other month and they don't want to they can't wrestle too often because they don't want to avoid injury so that's a bit of a politician's answer really that's another thing to think about isn't it how they travel I mean you know it's been where do they sit so we've had to spread them across various different seats in some instances so they're sat across two seats some of them we've flown 130 people over from Japan so it's not just the wrestlers it's the ring attendants, it's the judges it's the referees it's the people who have built the Dokyo but they're not going to be 190 kilos all of them are they?

29:42they're not all at 190 kilos exactly so it's 40 any excess baggage sir? but a lot of the people who work in the Asumo Association are ex-wrestlers and actually the chairman of the of the sumo association who gave opening remarks last night was the winner of the tournament in 1991 wow so there's a really so much history and heritage isn't there and legacy which is fantastic and therefore future wise would you expect mandeep to get more people showing interest off the back of these five days i would definitely hope so yes there's a real conscious effort being made to let people know that women too can wrestle and as i said before no age restrictions or no set restrictions on size are there either with amateur sumo there's different weight classes so everyone can have a go they can enjoy the professional scene as a fan and they can have a go themselves have i imagined this or have i seen women wrestling as well amateur sumo yes not in japanese sumo association okay they don't it's a male only setup within the japanese association and structure but this is how it this is how we're going to get it into the olympics which is a real uh you have to have both yeah that's right but that's the aim is it mandy an olympic sport uh yes absolutely it's been recognized by the international olympic committee and there is a real amazing number of skilled women doing it in different countries we want to have more women doing it if we can kids also i've actually got someone at my club who's partially sighted there's a way to adapt the tatsy eye they're already locked in and they start from there when the referee says hakiyo-e.

31:28Mandeep you are so laid back and softly spoken and gentle do you turn into somebody different when you are? Incredible Hulk. Or is it actually that calmness that helps you within the sport? I think you need composure actually i think you need calm and composure for sure especially when someone comes out at you and sort of almost has to behead you yeah if you react rather than respond then you're going to go down even harder so you really do need to be able to read the situation uh very quickly otherwise it could be very wrong this is the most zen episode of the sports agents we've had who'd have thank when you're talking about sumo.

32:14Mandeep, thank you so much. I hope you have continued to have a great time with the whole weekend of action. Thank you. And I also hope you get your aim one day in Olympic sport. Dave, thank you so much. Thank you. Tickets for Coldplay, anything you've got going on there, more than gratefully. We'll do a review for you, whatever you want.

32:37Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks so much.