Sir Mark Cavendish: "They wrote me off but I’m a born racer"

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. How do you go from the best in the world to not even being capable and back again? Our guest today, Sir Mark Cavendish, the Manx Missile, was winning Tour de France stages almost every year before the Epstein-Barr virus left him at a standstill, depressed, fatigued and worse. Then in his late 30s, he made one of the biggest sporting comebacks to become the greatest cyclist of all time. And there is Mark Cavendish. There is Mark Cavendish through the centre. He's hit the front here. Mark Cavendish is there. There's a crash behind. Mark Cavendish. This is history.

0:38This is history. First there was Max. Now it's Mark Cavendish standing on the shoulders of giants. Mark Cavendish has 35 stage wins. More than anybody who ever came before. Most doubted. And it's crazy to think that in a world where data rules, he was struggling to get a job because the sacred data said he didn't have it anymore. Never write off a born racer, hey? Exactly. How did it feel to be written off? Was it fair some people called him a dickhead? We've all been there. And after childhood success in ballroom dancing is strictly next. We haven't all been there. I was going to say, it's all that about you.

1:19Welcome to the Sports Agents.

1:29the sports agents with gabby logan and mark chapman mark cavendish welcome to the sports agents thank you very much for joining us how how is

1:40Sir Mark Cavendish:you look very well how's retirement oh bless you made my day thank you it's wonderful i'm loving life not just cycling i mean loads of sports events this year i've been able to have a summer holiday for the first time and uh i'm loving it i'm loving life thank you do you think it helps to retire first of all on your terms and secondly knowing you did everything that you wanted to do in the sport because so few sports people get that privilege you're 100 right gabby it's i know how fortunate i am to do it don't get me wrong it didn't come from luck it come from hard work you know but uh i had a cake with the icing on it but to put that cherry on was like i'm in a very fortunate position to have to do that i can start my new life without kind of any regrets i guess you know okay things that always change in my career i've talked about that in my new book but i don't have any regrets i'll never go back and like wish i carried on and stuff you know i'm very content i was with uh sitting next to sam burgess the england rugby league player as we watched england australia at wembley on saturday and he winced at virtually every tackle bearing in mind he has experienced that all the way through his career and i'm thinking well thank goodness you're wincing then because that means it is as tough as it looks am i right in thinking that Now you have watched the Tour de France rather than be in it, you are astonished at the speeds that you reached when you were doing it and that they are doing now.

3:04It takes your breath away.

3:05Sir Mark Cavendish:I was there this year at the Tour de France watching. I was an ambassador for the Tour de France. Actually, it's the first Tour de France sprint that I'd ever watched because I was either in it or crashed out and I didn't want to see it. I watched them on TV, but being able to be there and see it, I was like, oh, they ride real close to each other. They do. I was like, oh, my life. Like, it's pretty nuts, you know. I guess you can see what makes it such a compelling sport for people and why it's such a brilliant, you know, kind of theatrical spectacle. But just going back to your retirement and being on your terms, it nearly wasn't.

3:42You know, you had to dig deep and stage one of the great sporting comebacks back in 2021.

3:49Sir Mark Cavendish:Yeah, like, it's just persistence, really. actually for me during the last parts of my career okay I can look back and say like I was older but I kind of became a victim of my own success I guess by winning a lot early on that like you know like one Tour de France stage makes a rider's whole career one in their lifetime would make their career I knew quite early that winning one a year and it'd be like oh it was seen as a failure you know but I came to kind of live with that but the hardest thing for me was not the winning in the end it was getting the opportunity to win and that was something you never kind of taught as a sports person growing up is it you're very performance driven and you work hard and you get better and the results come from that the nature of professional sport you know you have to be selected for the opportunity and there's a lot of people that want to do the same job as you do yeah you touch on that in the book the politics of fighting to be selected and fighting to be in the right team effectively well first of all it's trying to understand it as well you know because i'm quite a logically driven person and something that doesn't make any logical sense.

4:52Sir Mark Cavendish:It was hard for me to kind of understand. And then sport is completely scientifically driven now. If you don't fit into that science, if you complete racer, we don't have the ability to analyze that, you know? And that was kind of where I am. But that's it, isn't it, Mark? I suppose everything is scientific or more and more scientific and analytical and data-driven nowadays within sport. So much stuff. I mean, you know, team sports, individual sports. And yet, for all of that, sometimes things just happen. Or sometimes a once-in-a-generation athlete, cyclist, footballer comes through that could blow some of that data apart just because they are unique in what they do.

5:37Sometimes in searching for a reason, there is no reason for something that's happened.

5:42Sir Mark Cavendish:But when you have the majority of people that make decisions are only after that, it makes it hard for someone like me. that's like for instance Geraint is absolutely naturally gifted you know incredible bike racer incredible person but objectively looking like incredible talent so his numbers could say he'd be able to do this even if he hadn't done anything for a number of years his potential to do something is always there whereas with me it was quite the opposite in that so if you go off the boil for a month or two you know it's uh it's looked at as no kind of potential to do it it was hard for me get a job sometimes you know oh he's old yeah but like the very fact i'm winning at that age it does because i'm not winning six tour de france stages like i used to i'm still winning and like i said one tour de france stage can make a whole rider's career so getting back as a 39 year old in 2024 and finally winning that 35th stage then did it hurt physically more at 39 than it did at 21 oh 100 it does i think you you obviously have a base fitness and level that comes from years of doing what you do but uh it's harder to just get fit isn't it you know and i think post covid one like we talked about scientists come in you're able to pinpoint who has the potential to do something based on a lot more people riding bikes based on people can see what they can get from cycling like when i started cycling when garen started you didn't get anything from cycling other than doing what you loved you know now it's a real financial fame game from getting it so that is obviously going to be a drive to people want to do it and uh with all those you see that all sport not just cycling has lifted up a level obviously being a cyclist i noticed that that level lifting up so you have to adapt to that physically you know and uh that stopped from the back in the day when i could just go around my bike and i'd be good like you really have to look specifically at what you do and uh and try and real tailor it into to what the goal is at hand it's not just physically harder i'm guessing it's mentally harder as well because you just said it then back in the day you could just go and ride your bike and do what you do and when you're doing that you're probably thinking i've got hundreds more opportunities plenty more opportunities in my career whereas as you get older are you thinking this could be my last chance i didn't really look at it like that i kind of throughout my career i always looked at just trying to win as much as possible you know and i talk about in the book it was kind of a narrative that was spun to try and win 35 stages was not me saying that and i couldn't see how it's almost like you could fail for not doing that like we got say novak djokovic for instance if he doesn't have a 25th grand dance title does that mean he's failed at his career it doesn't he's 124 do you see what i mean yeah and it was just like that you talk about the personality that it takes and interestingly cav is somebody very different to mark and i think did you call cab a bit of a dickhead at times but mark wasn't i'm assuming i guess like especially of a sport where you're quite institutionalized quite young you have people saying yes or doing what you want and it's quite quite normal you know and i think i'm honest in self-reflecting saying you you like that you know and uh i like things out how i like them i guess and uh i'm just quite direct do you know what i mean so that's one thing you just learn diplomacy as you get older don't you that's not that's for that's for everyone that's that's not just me it's not just a sports person I think I'm I'm able to self-reflect on that and talk about it do you know what I mean and I'm willing to talk about it.

9:17In that period those few years where you were challenging with your mental health your physical health and challenged about getting back on a team something happened to you and your family which would rock anybody and would change anybody's perspective in life and that was the robbery that happened to be held at Knife Point in your own home with your family there. People's reaction to it as well, I think, surprised you. There was kind of some of it was quite jealous almost that you had things that were that valuable, watches that were that valuable that people would want to come and steal from you.

9:50And it feels that it's still a work in progress getting over that experience.

9:57Sir Mark Cavendish:Yeah, unfortunately, like things like this happen now. I don't talk that much about it in the book because actually talking about it it's not a nice thing to have to talk about and want my family to listen to as well you know and Gary you've got a nice life because of what you do and that you know and if you work hard you work very hard and you wouldn't like someone I don't know resenting you for it I guess do you know what I mean and I guess that's the same for anyone and and yeah I kind of steered out as one thing I did steer away from in the book because it's not nice to talk about and unfortunately these things happen in the world now and I wouldn't wish this kind of thing on on anyone you know did it fundamentally change you as a person though um I think not any more than a lot of other things that in my life have changed I guess you know would it Do you think, would it change you?

10:58Sir Mark Cavendish:I'm sure it would, yeah. Yeah. It changes how you see the world a lot. Not all the world, but just everyday things. Yeah. Just talking about the things that come with, it's interesting hearing you talk about the fundamental thing that you love is riding your bike and then as you get better and better and better, all the stuff that comes with it and you make the great comparison with other sports. And I always remind myself that when I'm doing the job that I do, that everybody who I'm talking about started off doing the sport they're doing because they loved it as a kid. One of the keys to the success is how you manage all the stuff that goes with it and stay sane.

11:39And I guess for you, reading the book, the family that you have around you is one of the things that is of absolute kind of vital importance. And you can feel the love that you have for both your immediate family and the extended family.

11:52Sir Mark Cavendish:I think everybody starts life, especially sports people, in the entertainment world as well. You have a big network. And when everything's great, this network's massive. When things aren't good, it really gets smaller and smaller, doesn't it? And I'm very fortunate that I've got this great little network, my direct family, and people have been with me often for the best part of my career as well. Do you have goals and targets now? We had Gerrides in the studio not that long ago, who was already felt like he wanted to run a sub two-hour marathon by the time we'd finished with him. He was setting all sorts of more physical goals for himself.

12:32Are you very laid back about what comes next? What are you thinking?

12:36Sir Mark Cavendish:I'm just retired, do you know, and I've actually enjoyed the year. I've done incredible stuff that I couldn't do the last 20 years. Have you skied? I haven't skied yet, you know, and I want to ski like the kids ski and we want to go as a family. I got the first summer holiday in August with the family for a long time. Oh my word. It was very nice, you know. And you've had the call, I'm sure, with your ballroom dancing background as a kid with your mum. I'm sure you've had the call from Strictly. Yeah, like, you know, I'm quite interested in the management side. I quite like to stay in cycling.

13:09Sir Mark Cavendish:What, of dancing? More than do that. No.

13:14Sir Mark Cavendish:I've been working quite still a bit in the sport. You know, I love the sport. I've seen the growth of cycling. and I'd like to see it continue to grow, you know. And I'll always give my opinion, whether they're right or wrong, I'll always give my opinion. When you talk about the management side of things, is that managing young cyclists and trying to guide them through this landscape? I think it all comes as part and parcel of that, yeah. Anywhere where there can be improvement, both personal and professional. I know I have experience in both, you know, that I can hopefully try and pass on. Do you still get on the bike now, pop down to the shops?

13:49Sir Mark Cavendish:I do yeah I actually I don't train on the bike like I don't go out and try and get better I go out and enjoy riding my bike like I did when I was younger on your own I don't go too much on my own do you have a tan because of that because it turns into training I do go on my own sometimes no I don't have a tan yeah but you can't possibly be going out with anybody who's anywhere near your level can you be surprised like really it doesn't matter like the midlife like for warriors the good thing about bike riding is that you can just go and explore as fast or slow as you want you know i don't go out if when i do go i don't i don't want to race i don't even want to race at the top of the hill i'd race as long as it doesn't hurt i don't really want to hurt anymore what's that what's a what do you need to cover to feel like you've had a workout or is it about the hills and speed i really don't want to feel like i've had a workout i want to feel like i've been on a bike ride it's really like that yeah so what 50 miles 60 miles knock that off quite easily yeah I did I did 100 miles the other week you still ride a bike I can I can ride a bike and just as it was for most of my career it's a lot in your head there's a finish line you just got to get there do people spot you I was going to say that yeah I mean because presumably you're you're all kitted up and everything so do you get spotted when you're out on your bike I think I Yeah, I guess so.

15:08Sir Mark Cavendish:It's just normal, isn't it? I don't know. It's too fast to hear the shouts. Do you guys ride bikes? Yes, I do, yeah. Good on you. There is a sense of freedom from it in there, do you know? Yeah, I'd do it all the time if I didn't feel so unsafe at times. It's cars that I'm, you know. I've ridden in France and they love cyclists, don't they? So you can ride. I've ridden in Portugal. I mean, 30, 40 miles, you don't see another car. and you're in England you just feel a car is at any moment going to knock you off into a bush you know I mean that's it I would do the Transpennine way here because that is hasn't got any cars on it and it's it's and that's beautiful and I was actually in in Bakewell yesterday and again there are trails there that don't it's the car side of it Mark that really kind of puts me off just going out on the open road I suppose it is really scary when you're on a boat with cars on country lanes flying past you isn't it yeah i think it's not you can't generalize drives you can't generalize cyclists you can't generalize pedestrians it's an individual in a vehicle that makes it it's not a generalization of what oh no it's just it's just that the possibility of a car yes seeing you and then you know and you know potholes in this country as well that was the one thing i noticed between cycling here and in france and in portugal they just weren't the potholes you know so you kind and weren't worried about them.

16:29So I just need to find safer routes. But when I go out with my husband, he lets me kind of stay in and he goes out and takes the majority of the road. And so then I feel... Is that on a tandem? I'm obsessed with tandems. No, it is not. But I mean, it is the most... It's a beautiful feeling when you have a lovely ride, isn't it? And you come back and you just, you feel great. And as a lot of people in this country have found out, thanks to you and your generation, you know, it's just been such a boom, hasn't it? over the last 20 years. And also, can I be quite shallow and say, the kit is marvellous.

17:03I'm obsessed with the kit.

17:04Sir Mark Cavendish:I love how you described that. That's exactly the feeling that I love. Actually, I've put on a little bit of weight, so I don't feel as great in like it anymore. Not much, but I just, you know. Welcome to my world, Mark, honestly. I was about to say, I'm sure you look better than Mark. No, I wasn't. You bloody were. I could see it. I'd get in there first. it's really great to have you on the sports agents and look forward to seeing what you do next i think we could all do with seeing you doing a cha-cha-cha though or a foxtrot on strictly with your background as a kid in dancing don't do it believe achieving the impossible by mark cavendish is out now and it is quite the read good to see you thanks for having me thank you guys when we come back we'll fill you in on what else we've been talking about on the pod this week including whether chat gpt is already running your football club and if this weekend's rematch between Chris Eubank Jr.

17:59and Conor Bent should have ever been allowed. The Sports Agents.

18:06The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Well, we've had a very varied week on The Sports Agents. We spoke about AI in sport, where it can be beneficial, how it has developed at a real pace, what are the problems with it as well. So to discuss it all, we had Stephen Smith, CEO of Kitman Labs, and Ryan Beale, the CEO of Sentient Sports. Teams like Liverpool and Man City, they've hired Harvard professors and physicists to process tracking data. So they've got all of these players on the pitch that they treat as sort of tracking particle physics, and they've built all of these incredible models over the top, which are using some AI to learn.

18:50And does that feed into tactics, the analysts? Yes, definitely. So that information will then be spread to Pep Guardiola. Yeah. And then we had Ade Oladipo and Robert Smith in. Robert, the General Secretary of the British Boxing Board of Control and Ade, of course, the broadcaster, who'll be covering the Ben Eubank fight. That's Connor Ben and Chris Eubank Jr., of course, at the weekend. It's one that has had some contention around it. Realistically, one's a 147 guy, a welterweight, one's a middleweight. how are we going to make this fight fair even on the night you could see the size difference between conor ben and chris eubank jr chris is so much bigger so the only way you could do this is by saying chris okay you can't be super big but there has to be a limit on it so that's why they've done this and that's why this is the only reason this fight could happen if they allowed chris to be as big as he wanted to be i think people would see that this is wrong that's it for another week on the sports agents if you've been listening to this on the news agents feed Just search for The Sports Agents, listen to the episodes in full at YouTube, Global Player or wherever you get your podcasts and hit subscribe or follow, please.

19:55And remember, we love you getting in touch on email, the sportsagents at global.com on social media or via the link in the show notes. We've got new episodes for you every Tuesday, Thursday and Friday. The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

20:13This has been a Global Player original production.