Spygate 2.0 vs Bloodgate & The 'small ball' debate

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. I didn't realise being top would be as painful as what it's been. It's like Scooby-Doo, isn't it? Some people are citing he's an analyst, others citing that he's an intern. If this poor intern... Other people saying he works for MI5. I mean, we just don't know. That's the Marley Packer that's got 115 caps.

0:21Katy Daley-Mclean:I was involved in Bloodgate. If I want to bring you both in on smaller balls, Ugo. I'm not a fan, Gabby, yet. I get quite animated about this, to be honest.

0:37Katy Daley-Mclean:So welcome to the Sports Agents and it's just me today and we're talking women's rugby because England's Red Roses are on a 37 match winning run which is incredible but as we come to the end of this women's Six Nations and they of course face France for a grand slam both these teams going for it is it about time England were beaten or are we unappreciative of this winning run would it be the best thing for the tournament for England to actually suffer a defeat. England legends Katie Dely-McLean is with us, as is Ugo Monia in the studio with me. And we will talk about all things Women's Six Nations shortly.

1:12Katy Daley-Mclean:But Katie, I'm not going to necessarily expect you to be up on Arsenal's title challenge. But Ugo is an Arsenal fan. And as we sit here and Manchester City have notched up another victory last night. So that gap is still two points. Are you starting to feel a little bit nervous about the next few days? Did you hope last night they were going to drop points? Were you feeling that was a possibility? I'm enjoying where we are in the league, of course. But I've got to say, the last four months have been so painful. It's been so painful. Every Arsenal fan says this. Honestly, I didn't realise being top would be as painful as what it's been.

1:49Because I haven't really been able to relax. I don't remember the last time I fully relaxed. I love watching football. It's my first love. But I don't remember the last time I was able to watch Arsenal and just sit and enjoy it because it matters so much and because it's been so long. And so if someone said to me 22 years ago when I was six, why are you laughing? That it would take us 22 years to be in this position. I would have laughed at them. We were the invincibles back then. So I went back and looked at things that occurred that year. Guess what? Strictly aired for its first time 22 years ago.

2:28It's been that long. Oh, I thought you were going to give me a Strictly parallel with this. I was going, Anne, what's the relevance there?

2:35Katy Daley-Mclean:It's had that many episodes. It's been remarkable. But with two games to go, I'm excited. I'm very excited. And of course, there was a bit of a twist in the story, wasn't there, last night? Because Manchester City rested six players ahead of their FA Cup final. Oliver Glasner made a comment about potentially resting players against Arsenal for the final match of the season because they will then have a Europa final a few days later. So did that give you a little wry smile thinking that you might have a weakened... I mean, already I would expect you to beat Palace if the title was on the line, but that could open up the door even further.

3:06100%. We're playing Burnley, the second worst team in the league. On Monday, I'm going to the game. Can't wait. It's our final home game. We should beat them. And then we play Palace, as you said. and then three days later they've got a European final. All eyes for them will be on that European final. So I've now inquired and been able to get tickets to that Palace game thinking that that's going to be the day that we win the title. We should be better than them and we absolutely should be better than them considering that they'll probably rest six, seven, eight. I mean, they could rest their whole team.

3:39Katy Daley-Mclean:Still a nervy week to go though. You can sense it, can't you, Katie? And the other thing football related, which I do want to bring you in on, Katie, is Spygates, which has not resolved itself because obviously Southampton have been accused and also it's been taken very seriously. It's being investigated of spying on Middlesbrough ahead of their playoff, the first leg, and they came through the second leg. They'll face Hull in the final. And that has caused a lot of Middlesbrough fans to kind of go, whoa, hang on a second. We're still going to get ready for this because we think they should be thrown out of the competition for this spying incident.

4:14Katy Daley-Mclean:now it's extraordinary it's like something you couldn't it's like Scooby-Doo isn't it because the way that the spy was William Salt is the spy he was on the technical staff brilliant name I mean it does sound like a Scooby-Doo character even Tonda Eckhart who's the manager sounds like a made up name doesn't he and so and Eckhart hasn't got much of a kind of history in football management so his rise is incredible he will go from being Southampton's manager in the championship to potentially a Premier League manager in a year his CV has got nothing else on it right so these two are under the spotlight and presumably the manager is the one who would carry the can if this all uh kind of was proved to be true but it has to resolve itself before that final doesn't it it's so bizarre and it would be utterly hilarious if it wasn't so serious and the ramifications of it are worth what it used to be called the hundred million pound game it's more than that it's about 150 they reckon so it's um honestly it's so bizarre but the amateur nature of all of this i think calls lots of things into question because there's like photos of will salt who's only been named because he went and bought a coffee at it's his credit card that they've managed to trace there's a photo of him with his iphone and a set of headphones and i'm wondering like why why did you do it the other thing about we know why to get to get intel right but then the rules suggest that you're not allowed to do that within a 72 hour period of the game been kicked off so are you allowed to do it 73 hours like i don't really know that for middlesbrough they train on a golf course which is open to the public in 2015 where england hosted the rug world cup here the all blacks actually stayed on that golf course and refused to train there because they're like it's too open so if 11 years ago there was concern some international teams were looking to succeed but maybe middlesbrough should also look at how they can keep it slightly more private as to how they resolve this i haven't a clue but the whole thing i often feel that sport trips itself up where things occur that you never ever envisaged occurring like spying like who would have thought it's like an episode well it was something also katie that the manager said when they they knocked arsenal out of the fa cup and the manager said we spotted something a weakness in them and now arsenal fans are wondering how they spotted that weakness so we will presumably be tracing William Salt's credit card back over the last year and seeing if he turns up at various training grounds along the way, which would be fascinating, wouldn't it, to see the kind of information they could glean.

6:47Katy Daley-Mclean:You're obviously heavily involved in performance at Sales Sharks women's team. Do you ever worry about spying? To be honest, Gabby, that's the least of my worries, if I'm genuinely honest. What raffles me about all of this is, what are you worried that they've seen do you know i mean like the sport now is across all sports is so so much data on everybody that everybody can access without spying what are you worried about that you've done in that one session one free kick a corner routine what is it that will have well i guess it's just that isn't it if they've come up with a new set piece play which we can we can relate to in rugby can't we that they could then you know this they think this is their game winning moment and if the opposition already know what they're going to do they're going to be able to defend it yeah no but you're absolutely right but so are you katie i often we have conversations about this and that and when we speak to coaches about x y and z and they're so reluctant to give us any intel i'm like you've only got to have a look at or watch telly across the last year to understand that it's all out there it's everything is out there so you kind of think of like risk and reward the risk of being caught which you have been versus maybe getting a one percent it's not worth it i was involved in bloodgate in 2009 i was on that pitch where if we're going to talk cheating let's put it all out on the table exactly that was blatant cheated i mean we manufactured um a blood substitution via someone taking a blood capsule i mean the whole thing and the reason i brought it up because that was such amateur workings a physio who went to a joke shop in Clapham to buy a blood capsule to give to a player.

8:27Katy Daley-Mclean:If you've never heard the BBC there's an episode, wasn't there, a whole podcast on this on BBC Sounds. It is such a great listen because as you described there, it's like as we were joking before about the name William Salt sounding like something out of Scooby-Doo. The whole thing is just farcical. How amateurish it is. It truly was and I'm looking at this now scenario with Samton Middlesbrough and I'm thinking what were you doing? What were you thinking? And clearly you weren't thinking bright enough because it was It's evident across the two legs they didn't need the 1%. They didn't need William Salton and his iPhone 12 recording something in like 16 megapixels.

9:04Do you know what I mean? Like, guys, you're good enough. You're in a playoffs for a reason. Just back yourself.

9:09Katy Daley-Mclean:And it also used to happen in the North East at Newcastle United's training ground at Maiden Castle that they had open training every day. I was a student and I could walk in and put my kit in the same dressing room, changing rooms, that, you know, Newcastle United were using. the likes of David Genola and Les Ferdinand were going out. So anybody, they'd have thousands there watching training. So have we just become more paranoid? Maybe. Maybe in this age of everything being available to everybody, the pendulum's swinging into paranoia because everybody can see everything. Yeah, no, I'm fascinated how they solve it, how they fix it, what the ramifications are going to be, not just for the club, but also Will Solt.

9:51I mean, some people are citing he's an analyst, others citing that he's an intern. Other people saying he works for MI5.

9:57Katy Daley-Mclean:I mean, we just don't know. Watch this space. Okay, we are going to talk about the thing you're here to talk about in just a moment. A quick reminder, you can catch up with previous episodes on YouTube, Global Player, wherever you get your podcasts. Make sure you hit subscribe. And also, if you can, follow and give us a review. But we are going to switch very much to a rugby mindset. It is the denouement of the Women's Six Nations. And Katie and Ugo will be talking about that Grand Slam decider in a moment.

10:30Katy Daley-Mclean:Let's talk about this Women's Six Nations then. And we'll get to the nitty gritty of the whole tournament in a moment. But we have an exciting decider, as it always is between England and France. And it is ultimately what decides the tournament pretty much every year. So I guess if there's going to be some jeopardy and some excitement, Katie, France are going to win because that's going to give the tournament a kind of whole different slant, isn't it? England winning is boring, isn't it? We can't say that, Gabby. Previous Red Rose, I definitely can't. I think, to be honest, this will be France's biggest chance of them beating England.

11:0812 Red Roses missing to injury, pregnancy, a whole raft of problems. But I think France have been in average form, new coach, ex-Canada coach, seems to have brought a bit of structure to them. So if they're ever going to beat England, it doesn't get any better than this weekend.

11:24Katy Daley-Mclean:It doesn't. And we can go through kind of their tournament, play by play, match by match. But I think in terms of the context of the whole tournament, we loved England's journey in that World Cup. We wanted them to win the whole thing. And to do that, they had to win every game in the way that they did. But we also want Jeopardy in a sport. Yeah, Jeopardy at Elite Sport for me is everything. It's the thing that brings people to stadiums, to watch it on TV. and I really feel as if we've got it this weekend. We go back a year ago to this very fixture with France. I mean, they got themselves into such an incredible position to potentially go win it.

12:01They drop a restart. They lose the game by a point. Fast forward 12 months and this England team, as Keita already said, are depleted for lots of positive reasons, some unfortunate. But if France, I don't want to be too harsh. I said this yesterday, but if they've got anything about them, they go and win this match. I mean the stadium is set the stage is set 42 ,000 sold out at Bordeaux it's brilliant England missing so many influential players and actually the USP of the Red Roses is their power game and they're missing 8 from their forward pack so France the challenge is there there won't be a better opportunity or time for you to win this thing to beat England than this Sunday so the opportunity go and take it

12:47Katy Daley-Mclean:So let's have a look at England and areas where they might be a little bit fragile. They've conceded nine tries in two games and they gave away a bonus point to Wales. First time they've done that in 10 years. So are they a little bit defensively frail or fragile at the moment? Well, I mean, the stats are saying yes, aren't they? I think what's interesting defensively, we can't not look at the players that they're missing. You know, no Zoe Allcraft, no Moena Tallon, no Alex Matthews, no Sarge Kabea. And where England, for me, are really defensively frail is around the breakdown, which typically is where you would see those players defended.

13:21No Hannah Bottom and no Lark Davies in there as well. I think what worries me is France like that breakdown game. Boudoune Sansouce loves the little snipe. She loves the little ball back inside. And I think what Italy did very well last weekend is exploit that. So, yes, England defensively are frail, but they've also had a week to go and work out things that if they solve the problems, France I don't think will capitalise as much as they potentially could have.

13:49Katy Daley-Mclean:They have won eight Six Nations in a row. Well this would be eight Six Nations in a row sorry and obviously multiple Grand Slams in that time as well. They are an amazing team. We love their talent. You mentioned Pauline Bourdon-Sonsu but there are other talents in this team especially your area of expertise. They've got some flying wingers haven't they? They do. And I'm glad that Katie just mentioned the level of physicality that England are famous for, but also the level of physicality when France are at their best, that they're famous for. And I go back to last year again, I'd be watching that game as a blueprint.

14:24Where did France get at them? Through the guts of England, beat them up physically and then spread the ball out wide where they ripped them to shreds. I don't think the Red Roses back three defensively are as good as where they should be, actually. I think one of a World Cup hangover? Maybe. I also think just individually and Katie, you might agree with me on this individually. Just one. I doubt it. This would be a first. Just their one on one tackling out wide is not where it should be. Not at this level anyway. So France knows that if they can get front football, if they can win the physicality at the game line, then they can cut them out wide.

15:03So I'm excited at it because sometimes, and you know how it is, Gabby, sometimes you have to manufacture a sense of excitement or jeopardy. You don't have to this weekend because France truly can go and win this. The bookies have got England as favourites. Why wouldn't you? They're world champions. They win every six nations forever. But this is a match away from home. And for anyone that's been fortunate to watch any of these type of fixtures from home or better still be there to witness it. Playing test rugby in France is part of your rugby education. It is special and it's going to be hostile this weekend because I think for the first time in a long while, you'll have every French fan believing their team can win and every Red Roses fan believing they're going to win and that is all the ingredients you need.

15:56Katy Daley-Mclean:We have to give a shout out, Katie, though, to Marley Packer, who I think, we had conversations, didn't we, a year ago when England, nine forwards missing from this Six Nations for England. But a year ago, in that build up to the World Cup, you're looking at the back row thinking, wow, there's such an abundance of talent here. Does Miley Packer even get in this squad? And then the conversations were, well, yeah, because her leadership and her experience, she should be in and around this squad. But she was not a starter. She was certainly, you know, would any of us have thought a year down the line, she would be captaining England again and having the run that she's had and the try scoring kind of, you know, she could end up being top try scorer in this tournament.

16:36Katy Daley-Mclean:So let's kind of give her a shout out and her leadership in this team and having to step up when she needed to. I think for me, it's a resilience as well. I think you look at her and Emily Scarrett in that World Cup where realistically they didn't feature as much as they previously had, both kind of spending a lot more time in that non-playing group. I think what Marley's done is she's stuck at it. She's worked hard. She's been in good form at Saracens. But to be honest, I give a man of the match against Wales because I thought the ability to be able to do that when you haven't been playing week in, week out, and you know this could be your only shot.

17:11Obviously, Sadio was injured and she knew that was the opportunity she was going to be given on the back of that. But then to take it in the way and what she did, I thought, for me, is just a sign of, you know, the great players you talk about and players that we've played with. But to be able to do when you have the adversity she's faced and it would have been probably easier for her ego to walk away and just said, you know, it is I'm done. But to say their fight and then back that performance up with four tries against Italy. That's the Marley Packer that's got 115 caps and what, 59 tries. I think she's on now, 58 tries, two away from the record held by a winger.

17:46Amazing.

17:47Katy Daley-Mclean:We all want the shiny new thing, don't we? But, you know, for a 36-year-old to come in as she has done, I think it's given her legacy a different and a kind of nicer glow, I think. I couldn't agree more. I think people are soon to forget the start of your career. They'll always remember how you finish. They'll always remember how you finish. And Sir Alex Ferguson, I think he once famously said, you're better to go a year early than a year late, because that's how the fans remember you. do you know what I mean and so for Marley who's in the winter of her career now to be finishing or whenever she decides to finish and actually her form now may have extended her ambitions for herself and international there's a British and Irish Lions tour next next year does she think oh my gosh I'll tell you what I've got a few more miles on the clock maybe I could be in the frame to be able to do that but I'm so pleased for her I do agree with you Katie but I'm also very aware and haven't been in that position myself where you feel as if your time in the game's coming to an end, that you appreciate every opportunity.

18:54So for her to go and captain the team again. I mean, Sadia is a joke who's unfortunately injured. She's ridiculous. She was player of the match in the World Cup final. She is utterly world class and she's usurped Marley. Marley, once upon a time, was the best in her position on the planet. And sometimes, in the same way, if you speak to like Nadal and Federer they needed one another to sharpen one another to keep their focus I think Sadia coming in is definitely sharpen the tools of Marley as well as sharpen her focus and we've seen exactly what she's done the last couple of matches she's been tremendous but I have to say for a team that is lacking or missing some players and more so in the forward pack having Marley on that type of form with that level of mentality knowing what it takes to win away is going to be imperative to England's success this weekend.

19:44Because there's a lot of inexperience there Katie isn't there? It's huge I think you look at short you look at head in there you look at Delaney Burns in there and the thing that the lack of experience does is obviously self-explanatory but going to France when it's loud you can't hear your line-out caller like having to deal with that and understand the systems and I look at England's line-out how it developed that's where Abby Ward came up with her blinking and looking because they couldn't hear each other so they needed something else.

20:14Katy Daley-Mclean:So she's the person that you trust because of that experience in that environment. Do you think she could be the difference? I think there's going to be a big old responsibility on her to make sure the others are prepared for that because like Ugo's touched on there, France are going to come hard, they're going to come physical and they're going to want to dominate that young pack. They're going to want to get stuck into them really early doors and the crowd as we all know is so hostile in France. It's brilliant. It's what you find an extra 10 % you never knew you had but you've got to be able to deal with that as well and not let it affect your performance in a negative way before you find that 10 %?

20:47Katy Daley-Mclean:Did you play with anyone, either of you who had a rebirth where you thought it was all over and they came back and had a wonderful flourish towards the end of their careers? Danny Kerr, a good friend of mine his last four years he had he existed on one year contracts because I don't think Harlequins even knew what would happen to him at the end of the season and so he started over one year, got to the end of the season, so playing really well, top assists, playing every single game, so they gave him another year, followed by another year, and Lovie was like, hey, this is a joke now. Someone needs to commit to this relationship, because you just keep teasing me, and then he ended up retiring.

21:25But I think he was out of the international circuit for four years. Yes, he was in the international wilderness for four years. Danny and I were going to film a show called Hunted, you know yeah so we shot all the videos for it we'd already planned our routes everything honestly it was amazing we're going to get a helicopter from birmingham to my old school and we're going to stay on my old school site for a couple of days then we're going to head down to the south coast we were never going to get caught so danny and i had already committed

21:56Katy Daley-Mclean:to this show does this show extend the budget to a helicopter or were you putting in a favor calling in favors calling in favors and i think um danny'd already spoken to lord tindall we're going to stay at their house he's he's got some connections you know and a bit of security he's got a bit of security so we were so excited for this summer of fun and then a week before we're going to be filming Eddie Jones calls Danny and he gets called back into the England squad to go to Australia I was like what so where's this come from I mean he was so retired we were doing reality TV and then he goes and plays for England out in Australia they win that tour next thing you know he's playing in a World Cup in I don't think you can top that Katie no I'm not even going to try that is remarkable yes rebirth and I wonder what the mindset is when that is going on because you know somebody like Danny and we've spoken to him actually on the sports agents about that whole period he didn't give us the whole stuff about hunting but I wonder in the back of your mind if you're if it's always there that hope that the international call will come or if he was focusing week to week and day to day on being a Harlequin player yeah it's i think loads of people say that they always still hope they're waiting for that phone call but in reality and practically every single day i think sometimes it's really hard to serve two masters especially when you're on in the winter of your career because you just want to be able to give a hundred percent of a hundred percent to this one course and i think that's the thing that then gets you the international call up by being so brilliant by being so focused and And given everything you can to your team, you're able to then put yourself in the shop window to international rugby.

23:41So that's what happened to Danny. I was so pleased because for someone with that amount of talent to have ended his career, I mean, it would have been 80-odd caps to snuck out another like 21-odd caps and go to another World Cup. I think it's a brilliant story. And Marley is living that right now. She is the epitome of resilience and what world-class behaviours can get you.

24:06Katy Daley-Mclean:before we kind of wrap up I want to bring you both in on smaller balls here you go Katie obviously Zoe Harrison was very outspoken other players have come out and said that the WXV Global Series announcement that they were going to use a 4.5 ball which is smaller than the ball that they would is it a 5 or a 5.5 that they use was unnecessary it was also from a point of view of just actually practicing and playing with the balls would be very difficult to adapt to but you know a lot of kind of question marks as to why the sport suddenly felt it needed to do this what was your reaction i'm not a fan gabby i get quite animated about this to be honest um it is a ridiculous idea and zoe harrison is exactly right i think you know what is the thing we're trying to fix usually you are bringing something in right to fix a problem but ultimately we've just had the most successful successful women's world cup the game is probably the highest skill level we've ever seen you've got kickers nailing them from the touchline.

25:04You've got Meg Jones throwing 15, 20 metre passes off both hands and she isn't the only player in the Six Nations to do so. So what is the reason? And for me, it just feels like world rugby have got an itch that they need to scratch. They've put some money in this. They've got a bit of research and now we're all going to be, this ball is going to be pushed out there because they have an agenda. Because ultimately, it doesn't benefit the top end game. It has massive knock-on effect in the grassroots game because how do young girls and how do clubs get hold of these balls? Because they're not mass produced.

25:31you end up with a cheaper version that doesn't fly as well doesn't kick as well and ultimately you're hurting our game by not really in my opinion thinking this through i've heard a lot of that opinion and i'm i don't necessarily disagree but where i would good because i will fight you to the death about this i would just try and just have a little bit of balances there's a huge amount of negativity before actually seeing this trial it's it's a trial period it's a trial and the game's trialed lots of things some some of them been binned some of them been accepted and some of the consequence of it is actually if the ball if you can't kick the ball as far that might mean that teams are more likely to keep the ball in hand if you keep the ball in hand then we're seeing more time with the ball in play more passes more offloads more tries that's a potential outcome which no one's talking about i look at the top end of the game and England are the world leaders at their kicking game.