The real reason Ben Stokes retired & Is Carlos Queiroz right about "vulgar" 48-team World Cup?

0:00Gabby Logan:One of these stories of the sporting year, let alone the sporting weekend. This is my last two days as your captain. So we've had Keir Starmer, Steve Clarke and now Ben Stokes. He just looked as if he was at the end of the road. It was almost as if he was mentally disengaged. Has it devalued the tournament at all that the likes of Cape Verde are through the group stage? And maybe Scotland, were it not for a couple of goals, would have been through the group stage. Why are you so offended that there are 48 teams there? For years there have been discussions about how Africa has been underrepresented at that world stage.

0:34And now you've got a greater representation. And look how well they have all done. So I think some of it's like football snobbery.

0:43Gabby Logan:This is a Global Production.

0:52Gabby Logan:Hello, welcome to the Sports Agents. Hi Gabby, hi Nadam. Hello, Mark. Hi Nadam. How are we all? A little bit jet lag, Chappers? I'm all right, actually. Yeah, I'm okay. I am, and I've been nowhere. I know. I landed a couple of hours before recording this. I'm doing Germany-Paraguay later for radio. Well, you're doing it for telly, aren't you? So I think I'll still feel on US time at that point. I know Nadam's struggling being back on UK time and watching games, aren't you? Yeah, unfortunately, I've realized that I'm actually limited and maybe some people know this, but men can't really multitask.

1:30So I'm either watching the World Cup or I'm looking after my kids and I can't do both. Unfortunately, I've seen probably a few too many games. So yeah, maybe it's time to focus on the kids again. All right. I feel jet lagged because I did the Portugal-Colombia game after England's game on Saturday night, which meant UK time. We came off air just before three. So that meant I was getting into bed in Manchester sometime around quarter to four. And, and then I came back south because I was told that I might have to do the game last night, I ended up coming back south, and then found myself just having a little lie down at three in the afternoon yesterday, and then waking up five hours later.

2:10Not quite. So I'm the most jet lagged of the three of us. It's tough. The schedule is no doubt is tough, isn't it?

2:18Gabby Logan:It's, and it is for people watching as well. It's difficult. Oh, I don't mean us. I mean, for the consumer of this tournament. It's very, it is difficult to stay across everything as a fan. You know, it's just, there are so many games. And the other thing as well, the kickoff times are random. I mean, I would say that, and this is mainly, I think, because it's being held in three countries, but you would always know in tournaments gone by, it's at four it's at seven it's at ten for example and and and those kickoff times would never change throughout the the group stages or the last 16 or whatever whereas now you know we're not at that unit sometimes it's at six o 'clock sometimes it's at half past eight sometimes there's no so you can easily miss a game because you you're not in those regular kickoff times you know what so that's a very very good point and i'm gonna try and be balanced here because i can hear all those people complain, it's, no, no, everything needs to be built around Europe.

3:25Fair. Oh yeah, I get that. I get that. But what I would say is, well, what makes it tricky? It's not even, for me, it's not even the three countries, it's the three countries in the four time zones. And so even when, for example, we were in the US, I remember being on the East coast and a game was kicking off at midnight. And I'm thinking, why is this game kicking off at midnight? I thought this was supposed to be like a tournament for the US, but that was for that section of the US. And in terms of tracking it and so on, I think in it, in it's, maybe it's us being involved in broadcasting that we actually want to take notice of all the games that go on but would the everyday person actually have the time to be able to do that generally even if it was like a 1-4-7 there are a lot of games i get that and i think to be honest if i could just mention one thing my biggest concern with the 48 teams and i'm sure we'll talk about this is just more so for the teams that you care about you have to wait longer between their games as for the other stuff you can always pick and choose as to whether you want to watch it whether lose 48, 32, 16, whatever you want.

4:18So that's the only thing for me because you kind of lose rhythm a little bit. So we are going to talk World Cup today because we've reached the knockout stages and of course, England's game at the weekend, which Chappers was at. And you were, weren't you?

4:31Gabby Logan:Yes, I was, yes. You looked quizzical there. Have you been swinging the lead, Chappers? Have you been on a jolly? We've got a lot to discuss about now. The bracket is taking shape and we can kind of plot countries' routes potentially to the final. can you can you predict it maybe you maybe you'll disagree and say this is a very unpredictable tournament and cricket chappers as well we'll discuss that today that that that is the story of the weekend for me but obviously i'm very i'm very cricket biased but but the name i am i am i know the nature of the individual the talent the talent that he is the drama that has been around him in in recent weeks and then the the truly bizarre nature of his announcement that he was going to retire yesterday make it make it one of these stories of the sporting year let alone the sporting weekend for me so we'll talk Ben Stokes I know Steve Clark thought all the phone-ins were going to be about him didn't they but turns out and you don't get long do you to kind of uh kind of wax lyrical about someone and their departure we've had Keir Starmer Steve Clark and now Ben Stokes but you'll be pleased to know that only the latter is getting talked about on the podcast today.

5:44So tell us Chappell's what was it like in the stadium? What was the atmosphere like? How did it kind of feel the match?

5:50Gabby Logan:Well inside the stadium it was very wet. It was incredibly wet and I do think England have struck lucky a bit with their two games that they've had so far that have been outside because obviously the first one was indoors in the Dallas stadium but then they've played in Boston and New York in pouring rain. Both days felt like autumn afternoons back home, really. So the climate has done them a massive favour in their two group games. And their next game, which is in Atlanta, will be indoors as well. So it's only if, and again, it's not getting carried away, but it's really the climate will come into its own and will become the test for them if they have to go to Mexico and then that will well they will have to go to Mexico and then that will be at altitude if they beat DR Congo and then of course they have Brazil in Miami but the first thing that was really noticeable was the the the climate has really really benefited them and then and I felt this and you you obviously did the Ghana game for television and I don't know really what the feeling was after that or what the analysis was like after that but you're sort of left with it's neither brilliant it's neither terrible they're through and there are questions that could be asked but are they going to play like that if they are playing in a knockout game if they're playing Brazil and by that I mean they only really had one holding midfielder against Panama so they did look a bit vulnerable at times but is that vulnerability down to the personnel selected was it down to the formation or is that or is it because they're actually not playing very well or they may be struggling defensively and losing their different options and it's not their first choice at the back so you are left with questions but I don't I don't know Nadim you may you may contradict me but I don't think you can go overboard one way or the other really they've they've they've done what they've had to do they've qualified and now we see where we go next yeah I am very much with you on that and I think the two the last two games that they've played have been have offered a different sort of test which you probably wouldn't expect to see later in the tournament should you make it that far so for them to be able to just check the box and say they've made out the knockouts that in itself is a positive and you probably know more about how england will perform if they go deeper into the tournament based on how they played against croatia and it almost felt like it was a bit of a nervy start croatia was stepping up and then england were like dominant to start the second half and you saw some of their free-flowing play and then playing as i say with that sense of freedom and with the quality of the players that they have it made more sense because i think as the further they go in the more you probably find teams that will like want to go toe-to-toe with them because the ghana game for example i think ghana obviously did very very well very very well to sort of frustrate england but they also had 21 possession i don't think there'd be many teams in the latter stages of this tournament unless you know it's the weirdest tournament ever we'll be in a position to where like their their position numbers are that low even panama 33 so england ended up having a lot of the ball but coming up against a team that were happy, teams that were not happy, they were happy to not have it rather, and to defend, maybe try and hit on the break and so on.

8:59And that does cause issues. But interestingly, they're probably going to see the same thing against DR Congo as well. We were, yeah, yeah, considering, so I like, I was born in Nigeria, word Nigeria at this World Cup, considering a quarter of the world is at this World Cup, Nigeria not there, and it's because of DR Congo. So I'm kind of split in terms of whether I want them to do well or not. But yeah, they've proven to be, to be very, very solid and robust as well. but with like quality up front because they've got the likes of Wisser, you know, 60 million pound player up there. So I think from my perspective of England, it's going through the gears, going like just ticking the boxes, finding a way to get through.

9:33And as we've seen, whether it's club level, international level, the end goal is to make it to a final, to give yourself a chance of winning something. And ultimately these games won't matter if you get that opportunity in a couple of weeks time. Mark touched on defence there and that seemed to be having done the Ghana game with the guys who are going to kind of BR England pundits through the tournament. And then two of them were there to do the post-match analysis ahead of the Portugal-Colombia game. And defence was the area that was most concerning, I think, if not just because of personnel changes.

10:05They said to progress in any tournament, whether it is the Champions League or whether it is the Premier League, generally your defence is kind of solid and it is also, personnel-wise, is quite consistent through a tournament and through a competition. And obviously that's been an area of change, forced change as well, because of the injury to Rhys James, which again should not have come as a surprise given his previous kind of record with injury. And now Kwanzaa taken off with what looked like a knock. So how this England defence lines up against DR Congo is going to be, Nadam, a bit of a mystery, isn't it?

10:42Yeah, I think it is. But like the points that you're making there are really good points. but what I found with this World Cup, as is the case with Euros and so on, when it comes down to talking about England, we sort of look at it specifically through like an English lens and disregard everything else that's going on around because we can say that they're struggling at that right back position without having the people that we would want to see there, but how much will it impact their next game? Like who is the left winger? Who are the strong players on that left side for Congo that are going to make this game almost impossible from an English standpoint?

11:11And you think, well, I'm not really sure. And even going into the rounds after that, Are we talking about, say, like, Quinones, I think his name is for Mexico, that's going to cause them all manner of trouble there because nobody can do it? Well, now you're overhyping something that you know is good, but now you're almost making it seem great. So I get the anxiety around the personnel and the consistency that you want to have. But to go on the other side of things, like France are probably favorites for the whole tournament. And we say that not necessarily because they've got probably two of the best center halves on the field, but we're saying that because of the forwards and the attacking options that they have.

11:45Because yes, obviously you want to be defensively solid, but then also you look at England's last two games and a lot of people have been very upset about the lack of creativity. Is that due to Rhys James not being there? Is that due to Kwanzaa being in there? I think there are other issues which will probably be bigger going forward because Tuchel, whoever he plays in there, can do a job. And ultimately, the team can build from there. So I'm not really buying into it too much. I think this is now when the players that did make the play, their value goes up 10, 20, 30 million because they would have made all the difference.

12:13But with most of these guys, we've seen before that, you know, they just form part of the system and then the same anxiety still just happen anyway.

12:19Gabby Logan:I always think as well at the moment with England, probably more so than, say, take France as an example. France have that attacking talent and then you're not as worried about the different combinations when you look at France or there isn't as much discussion about, well, if they have Dembele there, then where does Elisa go there? And what's the role of Chouameni behind them in the midfield and so on and so forth? Where I feel that England have more questions about how they combine and interlock. So if Nico O 'Reilly is the left-back, then that's a very different left-back to Jed Spence. So how then will that affect Gordon or Rashford?

13:02Gabby Logan:And then how much can you judge Gordon or Rashford when one of them has played in front of Nico O 'Reilly, but one of them played in front of Jed Spence. And then that's slightly different again when you look inside because it's Declan Rice and Elliot Anderson for Ghana, but then there's only Elliot Anderson for Panama. So then how does that affect Rodgers and Bellingham ahead? And then how does that affect, how does that then link in with Rashford? And then you've got Saka on the right. Do you know what I mean? There are far more, and Thomas Tuchel himself said this after the Ghana game, that if you are looking at them not necessarily working down the left side, which is what he said after Ghana, then that isn't just about Gordon.

13:42Gabby Logan:That's about the relationship between Spence and Rice and Gordon. And I feel like there are a lot more moving parts with this England squad than maybe there are with a lot of others. Yeah, I think overall that would be fair. And the France example, again, I'm going to sound like a proper England truther here almost but the France situation is where they've got really like an incredible front four I think the two centre-halves are the best in the whole tournament as well and obviously they've got good players Koundé around it and so on the midfield's really really good but all those things you said about England are options that they have based on what they'll be coming up against like I don't know if necessarily from the France perspective they could be say as versatile in that same sort of manner like maybe there is the difference between Hernandez or Dina but it's kind of the same thing whereas like if we're talking about Nick O 'Reilly playing left back then we've got somebody who can both be on the left side and also find his way into the box you know France don't necessarily have that and if you have the right sort of midfielders in that space then you can have the balance because they all work very well together so Tuchel's probably got more options in this squad than we've seen for many many many years from in fact maybe ever from an England perspective because it is people that play these roles that complement each other.

14:57But yeah, France, they're special. I think, to be honest, I'm back in France all the way at this moment in time. But the only way I think they would stumble is if they lost control of the midfield a little bit. Because for as good as, say, Rabiot and Chouameni have been, and I forget what the other guy's name that's played in there as well, because they've used three of them. If it comes down to a game of control in midfield, you'd rather have three midfielders in there than two and a 10. And I think for France, when they're in the ascendancy, the two and a 10 works really well. But if they lose control, then I think they could be very much outrun.

15:25And if England, for example, were to play against them and get that combination right, then in some ways it negates the attack that France have and gives England a great opportunity. Can we just talk a little bit about something that we were discussing before we pressed record on this podcast and we said we're going to get the negativity out, which was a little bit to do with the size of this tournament. Carlos Quiroz came out and I think he said, you know, for something to be special, it has to be rare. And he was kind of basically saying this tournament is too big and it's not special. and teams that are not playing great football are getting through out of the group stage.

15:56And it is hard to keep across everything when there are so many matches that are out of our time zone. That's a very parochial complaint. Has it devalued the tournament at all that the likes of Cape Verde are through the group stage, that DR Congo is through the group stage? And maybe Scotland, were it not for a couple of goals, would have been through the group stage. So if we're going to talk about devaluing the World Cup, I think there have been more boos about the game being split into quarters and some of the other issues around that, more so than the number of teams, in my opinion. Because even when you say, look at some of the teams that Carlos Kuros is possibly mentioning, there are lots of teams that aren't there.

16:37Like I mentioned before, Nigeria aren't there, Cameroon aren't there, Cameroon who performed. Both those teams were at the last World Cup as well. So it's not as if everybody is there. You still had to qualify. And yes, there have been some weaker teams, but we're also missing the likes of Italy, looking at Denmark, you know, Poland as well, if we're just talking about some of the European ones. So he has his issues, but he's also talking about it from a different perspective from one of the teams who many would perceive to be one of the weaker nations anyway. Many people perceive that. So I'm not fully on board with that.

17:07And like I said earlier, my biggest concern is the rhythm of it all. Because if you want to follow one team, then you're waiting six or seven days for your next team's game to come in. and from my perspective again as is the case with most of these things you don't have to watch every game anyway whether it's 48, 32, 16 like nobody's forcing you to sit down at 3 in the morning and watch this match you can just go to bed and watch a brilliant highlight show or something afterwards so don't overdo it and if the bigger teams or sorry if the more successful nations relatively speaking cannot beat some of the ones who are perceived to be minnows then that's more of an issue with those guys so I'm okay with it to be honest Carlos Kiros, like his point about it as the coach of Ghana and as previously been the coach of like some of the nations who many, with all due respect, haven't paid the most attention to on that sort of national, on that worldwide stage.

17:57I think it's interesting. I think it's very, very interesting. And from my perspective, again, when it comes down to these World Cups and these large events like this, you don't have to watch every single game. so realistically why are you so offended that there are 48 teams there like you haven't had to watch say the three Jordan games to pick a team at random for example if you want to watch Arden Sina watch them if you want to watch Spain watch them you can still watch the same amount of games for the teams that you liked anyway so I don't know I think it feels like a lot and it also misses the perspective of what it's like to be say Vazina in goal for Cape Verde you know for people from the Arkonga what it means to be representing their country at this time you know curacao like these are history makers these are people who were inspiring so many not just in their home country but nations of a similar size and to that i guess chappers you were on the plane last night flying home from the states i'm not sure you saw any of um canada

18:47Gabby Logan:south africa no i didn't and of course because they finished second they ended up playing in la not in front of a you know a full full house of canadians um they never got out the group before you know they never won a game before this world cup they're now into the round of 30 so 16 having beaten South Africa. That was the first knockout game. And I've got this soft spot for Canada. My dad played for Vancouver Whitecaps and lived in Vancouver. And to see what it meant to them in a country which is dominated by, you know, two or three other sports before and to feel that maybe this is a moment where the sport grows in Canada.

19:22I got quite emotional. And Eustachio's goal was, you know, the highlight for them in terms of the performance. There wasn't really, it wasn't a great game but but it was a moment and is a world cup just that it's a collection of big moments isn't it that you remember in years to come it surprised me and that it hasn't

19:39Gabby Logan:been too bad at 48 there are flaws i think some of the group stages have been a bit crap because of the qualification process i'm not i don't like eight best third place teams that just doesn't sit right as a so do you go to 64 well i mean that's that's what a lot of people are saying aren't they but i mean i just come on wheels i just don't you know and you can go to that but then what happens to international football within those two years because qualifying then becomes then becomes a i mean should become even more straightforward and even less dramatic although you know italy may disagree who knows they still can't get it that's that's one of the weirdest like stretches of football history italy the european champions in 2021 that haven't qualified for the last three world cups i think just from my like final point on this for people who say 48 is too many we'll name the 16 teams that somebody believes shouldn't be there because ask yourself would that feature say for example south korea that have been knocked out you know Czech Republic or Czechia that's been knocked out because there are plenty of teams here who've underwhelmed who you might expect to be there anyway.

20:51I don't think those other sides are the real issue and even to put it into perspective. So you usually have five teams from CAF, African continent and now you've got ten and you've got nine of them making it to the next round. So realistically we're speaking as if people are dragging the level down but for years, for years there have been discussions about how Africa has been underrepresented at that world stage. And now you've got a greater representation and look how well they have all done. So I think some of it's like football snobbery, but I suppose that's the way it goes, isn't it?

21:25Gabby Logan:Right. Nadam, thank you very much. A quick reminder to catch up on our previous episodes on YouTube, Global Player, or wherever you get your pods. And please subscribe, follow, leave us a review while we're there. And coming up, we will talk Ben Stokes' retirement from international cricket with the broadcaster Mark Nicholas.

21:48Gabby Logan:Mark, thank you very much for doing this. What an utterly bizarre month. What, in the world? Yeah, well... Bizarre, wherever you turn, chapeau. It's pretty weird in America as well. I would argue that in Ben Stokes' life, what an utterly bizarre month, and in the world of English cricket. Yeah, I mean, I... You know, they're paying really probably for Australia if you wind it back to the inability to read the tea leaves. And if you go to Australia, you've got to be ready. You can't win in Australia unless you're at your best, A, and very well prepared. I would say over-prepared, really. The last England side to win there played three state games.

22:36A game against Australia, A, was there a month before the first test and really used the time well. That was Andrew Strauss's side. That side went there without one practice game, got in a strong position in the first test, blew it and never looked forward. And I think that legacy has hung around the guys in charge and has hurt Ben badly. It was a mission in his life to win in Australia. And he changed dramatically during that tour, both in the way that he thought about the game and the way he played himself. I mean, he, having encouraged adventure and the free spirit and a sort of concept of trying to play sport without the fear of failure, which is a kind of holy grail because, you know, you're relaxed, your shoulders, your hands, your muscles are relaxed if you're playing without a fear of failure.

23:28When that goes too far, you lose accountability. It all becomes, almost becomes irrelevant whether you lose your wicked or not. And you lose accountability for your performance. and and i think cover recovering from that without any changes in the management of the team and and prescient modern thinking to apply to the challenges ahead of them has cost them a bit and his frustration with everything around him the fact that he's tired he's 35 he's had a lot of injuries that he's gone through rehab from he puts his body through enormous strain when he bowls has meant that he's a bit diminished as a batsman and as a captain, that's difficult for you.

24:10So there's been a lot of things on his mind outside of whether or not he's having a set two with the ECB. I don't know. I'm not sort of in cricket mainstream in the way that I was when I was working in television. So the rumours are that he's had a set two with the ECB. So if that's there as well, then you can imagine his mind is a mess. They will miss the player and they will miss the captain, won't they?

24:34Gabby Logan:I mean, Stokes as captain, I know they've lost a lot of tests under Stokes, but I was looking at some of the stats on Sky this morning. They've only drawn two tests since Ben Stokes took over as captain, which shows the kind of cricket that they've played in very much a win-or-bust style for a lot of the time. And we will all miss watching him, the cricketer. He has been one of England's great all-rounders, Mark. Yeah, I think that's fair. I agree with that, Chapo. I think he does get into the great category. And it is interesting how in a run of three, we've had three all-rounders, sort of larrikin people in both some Flintoff and Stokes who, you know, they're men of the people and they've done extraordinary things and they've had their nation behind them in a way that very few other sportsmen have had.

25:33And so it's sort of, in a way, a bit sadder. What I thought yesterday watching him is he just looked as if he was at the end of the road. It was almost as if he was mentally disengaged. And actually, all over the place by the ongoing pressure of that. There's this four-year cycle amongst test captains, and not many get past the end of that four-year cycle. It's a very demanding job. And he is a great player. Would it have been a situation, would it have been feasible that he could have been given some time away and, you know, make a decision when he's recuperated, when his mind and his body felt back to something like normal?

26:18Would that have been... He did that. So you've nailed that. He, when he came back from Australia, he took a long time away from the game. So they were back in mid-January, well, early January. the last test finished at all i think on the 7th of january um ben had a long time considering his future um he he had thought that the failure in in australia might be the end of the road for him but then of course they've got next march they've got the 150th test at the melbourne cricket round recognizing 150 years of test match cricket um it's an australia england match a one-off and then the australians come in the summer so he had another crack at australia lined up and that's i think what most encouraged him to have another go at it he also got himself back to bowling fitness he solved the knee problem he solved the hip problem he you know he he was in great shape but you forget what it takes out of you once you're you're back playing and apparently it was during the lord's test when he was padding up to bat in the second innings that hit him that he doubted he had the mental strength to get out there and do it again.