The REASON so many boxers take PEDs? | Garcia x Benn

0:02Nedum:This is a global production. I knew back then I was probably going to try PEDs. The PEDs was like, my thinking was, oh, that can help me be like a superhero. Do you feel like you are being judged? To be honest, I don't really care. We've heard everything. People taking their wife's medication. No athlete in any sport whatsoever is being tested weekly or daily. That's not happening. The Hall of Fame. You've got to think Don King's in there and he's done some pretty heinous crimes. You think Mike Tyson's in there? He's done crimes away from boxing. What's the odd drug cheat here or there? He made a statement saying, if you don't take it, you won't make it.

0:36There is no cancel culture in boxing. I've done documentaries on Lance Armstrong, and I know how many people were either pressured to follow his lead. Boxing doesn't really care about the safety of the boxers.

0:49Nedum:The majority of people are doing it. Is it cheating?

1:01Hello, welcome to the Sports Agents. Hi, Nadim.

1:04Nedum:Hello, sir. How are you? I'm very well. I'm sorry I'm not Gabby, by the way. I know you only like to sit next to Gabby. Well, no, but what I do find is interesting is that when it's just me in the studio, you'll come in. Yes. But when Gabby's in the studio with me, you don't come in. So I think I've worked out who your favourite is. And yes, I am that needy, number one. and number two i know she'll listen to this episode hello gabby hope everything's going well gabby now who's sounding needy so there's a big fight happening in vegas this weekend it's brought the issue of drugs in sport back in to the spotlight so on this show we'll ask if the fight between ryan garcia and britain's connor ben should be happening at all but we're going to get a fighter's perspective uh pd use amongst fighters is a complex issue so we're going to try and have the whole conversation today.

1:54There is a reason why many boxers take PEDs and there are many reasons why people are very much against them. When Larry Olabamiwa was a British heavyweight contender, he was a boxer who made that choice. Larry, thank you very much for joining us. Your story is fascinating and relevant as we go into this weekend. and it's really the boxing side of things that it's really important that we focus on and your boxing career but if you can as sort of succinctly as possible just explain how you arrived in the boxing world because that wasn't your sport as a kid was it no i was i was a sprinter first and

2:39Nedum:foremost but i always used to box in the off season to keep fit because i always had a passion for it and what happened was I think I've you know I've ripped my hamstring really badly happened again just got tired of the rehab and then just decided I was going to go into boxing and happened from there really you're you're and this is also relevant I think when we come on to the subject of performance enhancing drugs you got into sprinting because of I've got the note that you saw Ben Johnson win the 100-meter Olympics in 1988. It's a little bit skewered, but I didn't get into sprinting because of him because my uncle was an Olympic sprinter.

3:21Nedum:He competed in the 72 or 76 Olympics, I believe, sprinted a long jumper. But I greatly admired Ben Johnson, even to this day. I mean, I think he's the premier sprinter. If you look at everything that he can do and did do, And everything he left on the table, especially in that 88 final, when he lifted up his hand in the air, like, what, 15 metres from the line and slowed down, he could have literally run what Usain Bolt ran how many years later. But you admire him still despite everything. I mean, God, honestly, I want to talk to the boxing, but we're already going off down. Yeah, but you see, you're saying despite everything.

4:09Nedum:So let me give you an example to show you why what you're saying is very wrong. When Usain Bolt was at the top of the game, out of the top 10 sprinters in the world, he was the only one that hadn't tested positive for PEDs. Then there's the actual 88 Olympics, the race we're talking about, where it's sometimes called, and I think it's a bit, it's called the dirtiest race in sport. I think there's other races that were a lot dirtier, but that just goes to tell you that it wasn't just Ben Johnson. So I think people need to pump the brakes when they bash him, you know? Because you think that he took the fall for a lot of people?

5:01Nedum:Oh, if you read his coach, Charlie Francis, who is a brilliant man, shame he's passed. But if you read his book, Speed Trap, he tells you so many anomalies that happened during the testing of Ben Johnson that would have got many other sprinters off. but there was uh there was basically there was there was propaganda against uh ben johnson from certain other people who i won't name because i don't want to get sued uh clary to be honest with you so that's good it was very similar to how what happened with lance armstrong in the um in the cycling in that everyone knew that everyone else was doing it so and i think when we get on to boxing as a sort of more general subject in a little while, that will be a very interesting discussion.

5:57I've done documentaries on Lance Armstrong, and I know how many people were either pressured by Armstrong to follow his lead when it came to the drugs. I also know how many people went by the philosophy of, well, everybody's doing it, therefore I need to do it if I'm going to any chance of competing and and that that is a that is a belief and a philosophy that held true through so many people involved in that era of cycling some stood up against it and maybe lost their careers because of it but but this that is that is part of the crux of this whole discussion of how widespread these things are and whether people feel they have to do it otherwise they're

6:42Nedum:at a disadvantage but I know you've got some yeah I think I think that's a good point and it's great to have you on Larry because you're gonna be talking about things from your perspective and even the way you talked about Ben Johnson there isn't a way that I've heard anybody else talk about Ben Johnson before the way you're talking about say Usain Bolt and the group of people you don't hear that very often and what it sounds like in my opinion is somebody who is informed in terms of how like your beliefs around say doping and so on within sport but this is you today. Did you think the same way when you were younger?

7:12Nedum:Did you think the same way when you started, say, for example, your boxing career? Or is this something which you've sort of learned over time? I remember vividly, because I was only like eight or nine, maybe 10, when Ben Johnson got caught. And I was the only one defending him. I had a good idea, because even from being a very little boy, I was always a very critical thinker, which might sound weird, but there you go. but um yeah i i defended them even then and i said i said i said it in a few interviews i knew back then when ben johnson think when ben johnson thing happened that i was probably going to try peds um i was also all that you know this the kind of guy that loved superheroes and i was into marvel comics heavily as a kid um and you know i and and it's kind of weird because that's the kind of stuff that kept me away from uh recreational drugs and alcohol and stuff but the peds was like my thinking was oh that that can help me be like a superhero you know um silly but uh in hindsight It was sort of the beginning of how I started to view the whole situation with PEDs.

8:34Nedum:And then as I came up in sport, especially sprinting, especially the area that I came up in, and saw for myself not just what the public was seeing, but saw for myself behind the scenes what was going on. and then interacting with other sportsmen in other sports and saw what was going on behind the scenes there as well. It made me come to the conclusion that, yeah, pretty much everyone is at it. And again, I spoke about Speed Trap, Charlie Francis's book, and the doctor, Jamie Astephan, who was helping him out with the PEDs, made a statement that always sticks with me Because obviously he sided with them And that's why he started helping them And he made a statement saying If you don't take it, you won't make it And While I want to say that's 100 % It's It's It's the prevailing thought With a lot of people So to answer your question When I got into boxing As an amateur I knew that was going to have to be you know what i was gonna have to do so what what period are we talking about when you started amateur boxing and you were already receptive to the idea of peds even even as you started out as an amateur i started amateur boxing when I was about 21 2021 um but I didn't then I had a period off uh and then when I came back into the sport when I was about 26 27 um that's when I you know came to the conclusion I'm gonna have to indulge in peds in regards to that you say you had to indulge as such did you were you sought out or did you seek the the peds themselves and when you oh because because as you as you might know i have a degree in pharmaceutical chemistry so uh i i i saw at the uh the substances and i knew how to uh procure them and how to actually uh make sure that what i was getting was the actual stuff with the aim of making it a level playing field or how did you perceive it at that time because you say you wanted to be a superhero or you had that from when you were younger yeah from when i was younger that yeah to make it a level playing field but also um to make sure i give myself the best chance of uh getting to getting as far as i can in the sport When you turned pro, you had 11 amateur fights, didn't you, I think?

11:25Yes, yeah. Around the amateur fights, before we would get to you turning pro, were other people around you aware of what you were doing? Is there testing for amateur fights?

11:43And if there was, how do you hide it?

11:46Nedum:No one really was aware of what... I think there might have been a few people Because I did get a few questions from other amateur boxers Obviously they just looked at my physique It wasn't anything that I was saying But they looked at my physique And assumed that I was using PEDs And they asked me certain things But that didn't happen a lot as an amateur It happened a lot as a pro But as an amateur No one really knew what I was doing And to be honest The testing for amateur boxing is woeful at best, you know? Something I'm trying to square in my mind, Larry, is if everybody is doing it or was doing it, why were people also trying to hide it like yourself?

12:30Nedum:If it is rife, then why is it also hidden? Because it's against the rules. So you get back. So it's hiding it from your peers or from, say, authorities? I think it's hiding it. Well, because some of my peers, as a pro, and I won't name who they are, but they knew what I was doing because I was open with them. And that was probably because they were thinking of doing the same thing or did do the same thing. I don't know what they ended up doing because I didn't advise them as such and give them anything. But you basically hide it because you don't know who's going to tell the authorities that you are using performance and arts and drugs.

13:12Nedum:So that's basically it. but you you have a trusted circle who you can tell and uh you know when you turn pro did things did your mindset change as regarding as regards performance enhancing drugs you i mean you were inside that you you were a british fighter inside the the top 10 no if anything it actually made it uh made me even more uh determined to use peds because uh by that point um especially when i was southern area champion um i had traveled to america i'd seen plenty of stuff there and um obviously being in the circuit in this country and uh mixing with different boxers and training groups i've seen a lot so it just confirmed what i always knew to be honest with you larry i've got like two parts to this as such and the first one like from my perspective here i'm learning about boxing i'm learning about the perspective of somebody that was part of that scene that knows so many people within it.

14:10Nedum:So I do find it fascinating. But firstly, as you talk about your time and you talk about your sport or the sport that you were involved in, when you talk about your perspective, do you feel like you are being judged? And do you think that's fair? To be honest, I don't really care. I had a feeling that was going to be the answer. That's a perfectly valid answer. And as you look back at your career, if you were to have regrets, and not everybody has regrets, would the regret be more towards taking the PEDs or being caught? Being caught. And why is that? Was this a mistake on your part or was this just a change in the authorities that led to you being caught?

14:46Nedum:I was just very lackadaisical. Well, the way I was caught was I was getting a certain supply from China. America had this Operation Raw deal where they were trying to stem the flow of PEDs into America by going after the Chinese suppliers. They got some Chinese suppliers. my name was on one of their lists they sent that to UK anti-doping that's that's how they knew that what I was doing and that's when I got tested apart if that never happened um I probably never would have probably well if I got to a higher level in terms of like world championships I probably would have been tested um but I would have been prepared for that but basically the beginning of my career I was I was very diligent to make sure that my protocols would make sure that I'd pass tests and after like the first three or four fights when I realized I wasn't being going to be tested um until maybe a British title fight um then I was very laxadaisical with my protocol so no so there's there was there was no daily testing for you when training or in the build-up to a fight as a there's no daily testing period no matter what sport you're doing there's there's there's there's no daily testing like so when you when they do testing it's either targeted testing because they've got information on you or it's the routine out of competition testing or routine competition testing that's it there's no daily testing daily testing everyone all the anti-doping uh organizations will go bankrupt these tests cost a lot of money yeah we know but there are there are other people in other sports who have sat on who have who have been on this show and have talked about the testing routines that the the that they have to go through cyclists or athletes and their whereabouts the testers have to know every virtually every 24 hours of an athlete's life where they are and we've had people on the show who have who have fall and foul of drugs testing laws because their doorbell hasn't worked yeah so that's the whereabouts that doesn't necessarily mean that they're being tested that means that you need to let them know where you are did you have to do that uh at that point no no i didn't uh so just but just to answer your question that doesn't mean that they're being tested daily no athletes being tested daily no athletes being tested weekly yes you have to let them know where you are when you're traveling so they have the opportunity to test you um but in terms of like no athlete in any sport whatsoever is being tested uh weekly or daily that's that's not happening what's your overall perspective then on say performance enhancing drugs in your sport and possibly just wider in general because you you i've gone on record to say that you believe it was 80 of most of the big cards within boxing will feature people who are doping boxing itself from my perspective feels very different to other sports in regards to that.

17:54Nedum:And to name just like two other sports, in say something like track and field athletics, somebody that is classed as being, as doping is becoming an outcast and everything stops. Within football, somebody that gets caught doping in the terms of today, in the terms of today, I'll reference that point. People ask the question, well, why would they do that? you don't need to do it so how is it so different in boxing and realistically for example most people when they think about doping from a very very simplistic standpoint say it's cheating in your sport if the majority of people are doing it is it cheating so in answer to that question before i go into the other sports um no i don't think it is um you know so so let's go with the um so the anti-doping organizations go on this thing that they say the reason why they are they they want to eradicate doping from all sports is because of the uh fairness in sport and because of the safety in sport so let's deal with these two things for as far as the fairness is concerned there's no such thing as fairness in sport there's no such thing as fairness in life yeah you have athletes that have better cultures than other athletes is that fair you have athletes I have better equipment than other athletes.

19:17Nedum:Is that fair? So if anything, especially with the majority of PEDs, not all, but majority, they're very affordable by most athletes. So if anything, they actually reduce the gap. So we go to the safety aspect of things. So my argument would be that they're actually making it more unsafe because if you go to, and a very famous case of that, although there was plenty of rumors that it was going on beforehand but but a very big case that happened with designer drugs was the balco lab scandal so that was where uh victor conti who's now passed you know got some chemists to uh make some you know alterations to an anabolic steroid to make a new anabolic steroid that won't be picked up by the testing equipment and many athletes that use that including our own duane chambers which who i actually know i'm actually good friends with duane um and uh yeah the only reason they were caught was because a jealous uh coach called trevor graham sent in a sample of that drug to the anti-doping organizations to say that this group are taking this drug if he never did that um they never would have been caught So there's plenty And the thing is That was just a famous case That happened There's been rumours of other athletes That have money Hiring their own chemists To make different permutations To the testosterone molecule Or different other molecules To make it So that it isn't picked up by the testers The problem with this Is that these drugs are not tested For safety because they're literally new drugs, right?

21:10Nedum:So if anything, the anti-doping organizations are actually making it unsafe, more unsafe, because they're making athletes go that route. So then my solution to this would have been, look, some people have arguments that you can't allow all PEDs in because some are more dangerous than others. I can accept that fact. So then my solution to that would be, allow all the drugs that are naturally made in the body, which is your testosterone, your growth hormone, your EPO, allow those, because that's naturally made in the body, and ban everything else, and then test athletes on their health parameters.

21:57Nedum:That would take care of the safety aspect. When you came back from your ban, you said that you weren't using PEDs. Why not? I pretty much fell out of love with the sport by then. As you know, I'm an actor, and I wanted to pursue other things. So really, when I came back from my band, I was just boxing to fund my drama school, to go into drama school. So that's why I became a journeyman when I came back. Do you know what I find really interesting about that, the two sides to this, and I think this in some ways leads into the fight this weekend, is it sounds like within the sport, if you care and you want to be successful, you will at least look at the option of taking PEDs.

22:44Nedum:Whereas if you don't, then you'll just let it be. And I think, as I say, that's probably a good segue to talk about the fight this weekend. It is. It is. Just a final one, though. Do you feel huge sympathy for those in sport who tried to do it the right way? I take issue with what you mean by the right. I followed the rules. I knew you were going to say it. Follow the rules. You know, but again, we've got to use our critical thinking here, man. Again, rules, impulsions. Who's to say what's the right way? Who's to say what's the right way? If you mean the way that the authorities want you to do it, that would be a better way to say it.

23:26Nedum:Yeah, okay, yeah. So what was the question again? Do you have sympathy for those who have tried to make their career in a way that follows the rules of the authorities no because it's a choice

23:42Nedum:let's move it on not that i don't have a sympathy i don't feel either way it's you make a choice you go into the sport you make a choice that's it simple let's bring in our next guest in just a moment quick reminder that you can catch up on our previous episodes on youtube global player or wherever you get your podcasts, subscribe, follow, leave us a review whilst you're there, please. Still to come, Ryan Garcia against Conor Benn for the WBC welterweight title in Las Vegas this weekend. Both of those men have returned positive drugs tests. Both are likely to get at least an eight-figure payday for fighting each other.

24:18We'll talk about that fight next.

24:28so larry is still with us and uh boxing journalist and former editor of boxing news tris dixon joins us just just before we get on to the fight you you have interviewed larry many times tris you know him well you've heard what we've just been talking about where do you i mean god this could be a very long answer when i ask you this but what what are your initial feelings as you sit down to talk about the fight this weekend against the backdrop of what we've discussed yeah i mean i think larry is a really interesting case study uh i think people will probably be astonished that he and i get on really well really but given i'm meant to be the the moral majority or maybe moral minority in this case um and and i think yeah i think it's a it's a very interesting thing i think the thing is with larry and boxing specifically is when it does come to pds there i see a different set of moral guidelines and i'm not sure where larry stands on this but obviously we're not in the fight game trying to run faster jump higher um or lift more what's your moral damaging well obviously you know my moral guidelines would be following the rule books right and and and and adhering to uh to the to the rules in place about doping um but i also feel like there's a there's an ethical argument here about hitting people harder for longer um and being able to inflict more damage so there's very much that side of things and you know there are people out there who talk about doping and boxing and say you know if you do hurt someone and you are found to be taking performance enhancing drugs then it could be manslaughter um you know it could it could be could be murder because you're using weapons or artificial weapons at that um but obviously when larry's talking about it you know if you think everyone's on it then you've got the self-defense argument as well i suppose well let me just let me just let me just cut into that

26:31Nedum:quickly i've actually spoken to a few lawyers about that and that wouldn't hold because that that that stance would dictate that people haven't died in boxing already, which they have, and you can't substantiate how much of a PED, how much that PED contributed to that person killing that person. Do you see what I'm saying? So that wouldn't actually hold up from what a lawyer told me. Can you though accept, Larry, that performance-enhancing drugs make a dangerous sport even more dangerous by increasing your power artificially? creatine is a very very um a very good supplement that increases strength and power so are you saying that it doesn't matter if uh damage or death is done when someone takes creatine but then it matters when uh someone does it and they're taking a p.d.

27:25I suppose it's the level playing field because either fighter can take creatine yeah but if you're taking something

27:31Nedum:outside the rules then it's not creatine but it's but for me it's the death aspect because that's what you guys are going on so again is it is it okay why do you have so much of a problem if it's a substance that's not in a rule book as opposed to something that is in a rule book do you know i mean because that that was your central argument that that someone has more power to be able to hurt someone so then if you have more power due to having a supplement that's allowed in a rule book then do you understand what i'm saying it kind of kills that morality morality argument you can use that morality argument with epo and people who can afford to go to big bear and train altitude as well right you know if someone's can afford the whole setup to go to big bear and train altitude and say they're a top of the line fighter with good sponsors and you know high level promoters that gives them an artificial advantage but someone could get a similar effect by taking epo and staying at home but which one's cheating is that the way that you look at it yeah 100 100 you have guys who can get can afford hyperbaric chambers we don't even have to go to altitude training and just do that just lie in a hyperbaric chamber um when they're sleeping and get that same effect as well it what's the difference do you see what i'm saying like this this is what i'm saying like people need to come away from this whole moral thing because it doesn't work it just it doesn't stand the test you know it doesn't and and when And I understand people, because I understand that Triz is not for, just like Mark is and probably yourself, they're not for PEDs of sport.

29:06Nedum:And that's fine. But then don't use the moral argument because it doesn't stand up. Do you know what I mean? And that's my big gripe with these sort of arguments. Me and Triz are still good. Yeah, of course. From my side of things, I must say across sport in general, I don't believe in the idea of a level playing field because there's always something that somebody will have, which other people will not have but in regards to Tris's point this is something come from somebody on the outside of boxing here you said with some of these fighters they were able to punch harder and punch for longer so within the sport where people probably want to watch that why does it matter because surely a fight where people are punching harder and for longer is something which will draw eyes and essentially for as much as it's a combat sport people are wanting to be entertained by that as well boxing doesn't really care about the safety of the boxers and i'll tell you why so and i've had plenty of experience with this by the way so i know this is true and trish knows this is true because he's been in the industry longer than me there's many fights that are made last minute where the other boxer hasn't even trained and it just brought in last minute how's that safe you've got a fighter who's done a full camp maybe a 12-week camp and because, I don't know, a fighter's pulled out or maybe he's a prospect and you want a body coming in, you let them know, you've given them like four days' notice.

30:30Nedum:They haven't even trained and yet you want them to jump in the ring and then you want to talk about fairness and safety in the sport. It doesn't hold up. This is what I'm saying, like all of these moral arguments and if you look at everything unbiased and all the facts, you will understand that these arguments don't hold up. Can I ask, sorry, can I just ask Larry a question there? Larry, can I ask a completely hypothetical question? What if you had taken something and you had really badly hurt someone and they were a clean fighter? Would you have felt, do you feel like you would have felt a type of way about that?

31:06Nedum:I would have felt the same way I would have felt if I didn't take anything and I'd done the same thing. I would feel bad for the person, but that could have easily happened to me. So that's how I would feel about it. because again hold on a sec hold on a sec because again that could happen when no one's taking anything and this is the part that a lot of people seem to forget how many times as people have people died in the ring you know it's a dangerous sport it's you're hitting each other so unless we're going to take that out of the equation do you know i mean like we i suppose larry that the question will be and again probably have to come back to your pharmaceutical knowledge here is there a greater chance of that happening because of the pd well funny you say that because they actually they've actually done some uh um some uh research into uh growth hormone and how it's actually protective of the brain of fighters because uh um they've noticed that this was done quite a while ago actually they noticed that um a lot of fighters uh at the end of their career they produce a shockingly low amount of growth hormone and that's because of the blows they've had to the head and as a consequence uh it takes the i think it's the cerebral fluid it it makes it even less than it actually should be and they've realized that that actually gives a protective element to it so i find that quite fascinating but um it all depends on the elements because at the end of the day like i mentioned creatine is a is a is a very effective uh supplement for strength and uh anaerobic stamina now depending on who you are um like myself i'm a hyper responder to creatine creatine for me is like taking an anabolic steroid like that that's how effective it is and i know a lot of people like that so again it depends on on the person so i could i i literally could say in answer to your question that no in terms of using creatine because i can't really speak on other sports supplements but in terms of creatine which is allowed that wouldn't that i think it's the same sort of effect can i can i just ask a very basic question on creatine and then and then tris we'll get on to boxing as an industry and this fight but just because creatine keeps coming up a lot and you mentioned it's found in in red meat is and i'm not saying that you're using creatine as a as a as a justification for other arguments here but is would there be a way of managing the levels of creatine allowed because i know you say it's fat i know it's found in in red meat but if you took if you if you banned if you looked at levels of creatine and only allowed a certain amount of creatine within an athlete's body would that affect your argument no it wouldn't because and again these studies have been done already and this is why you also have hyper responders and non-responders to creatine so there's many athletes that have an abundantly high amount of creatine in their systems which is over the natural um over the natural limit for most individuals so you wouldn't then be able to say oh well you know you're you cannot you cannot perform in this sport because you've got a high creatine level it does it doesn't work that way the wider boxing industry then tris with this fight at the weekend before we get on to the fight at the weekend how would bear in mind these rules are in are in place and they you know there are drugs that are banned and performance enhancing drugs how is boxing set up as a sport and an industry to deal with people who are taking them well very poorly because as larry alluded to in the first part in the first part the testing is very very limited um even when you get the big agencies involved whether it's ucad or vada they can't comprehensively test year round really the wbc has a clean boxing program which they implement and they do hundreds of tests every year with some of the top fighters but i speak to people regularly about this subject i spoke to one of the top women's fighters michaela mayer last week or a couple of weeks ago and she said she's had very little testing and i spoke to a journeyman johnny greaves who had 100 fights didn't get one test in 100 fights And I know he's a journeyman, but even so, 100 fights and zero tests.

36:04And there's plenty of other good fighters who have told me they've had absolutely minimal testing. And as Larry said, you know, there's not the money involved. And I think there's possibly the wider issue is that there's no... And look, I don't really encourage cancel culture, but there is no cancel culture in boxing. and instead of there being council culture these guys guys that pop are generally rewarded for becoming for for coming either anti-heroes or having a redemption arc or something different or becoming more infamous with big paydays and and it's it's right the way through the sport you know with with with recent hall of fame inductions where you've had shane mosley roy jones james tony they've all got positive pds they've gone straight into the hall of fame straight into the hall of fame no questions asked like there's no there's no really strict punishments even when one of our flagship fighters canelo alvarez tested positive and he was banned he was basically banned for the duration that he would have been out of the ring in between fights anyway so you know because a lot of these guys and and this is another part of the problem fight once or twice a year and larry will be able to talk to you more on this than me but that allows cycling like which allows it to to become rife so you know i hate to say mark but like it's really it's really not set up for stringent testing and and i think there's so many people that slip through the net and i think just one of the most damaging things is i spoke to one of the more important drug testers in the world recently and i said have you done more than 100 positive tests and in many ways this is to larry's credit and she and i was told yes they've they've had more than 100 positives in boxing uh through the years and i said how many fighters have owned up to it and they went not one and everyone's got an excuse and you think the law of averages one person's got to be taking something intentionally somewhere but we've here and we've heard these crazy excuses you know from so far out of left field we've heard everything so people taking their wife's medication or they've eaten something random and you know and it's crazy but it's basically you know and we've mentioned lance armstrong there you know lance was attack attack attack these are guys deny deny deny and sweep

38:27Nedum:under the carpet and crack on so this is going to be linked to the fight this um this weekend But is it a case that within boxing, because it comes down to entertainment, sometimes rules and procedure doesn't really matter? And the reason I ask that is because for many, they're sort of wondering why is Conor Benn fighting Ryan Garcia anyway with the backdrop of, say, the PEDs, but also just the weight classes and things like that? Yeah, so obviously I think there's a big political question here. And I did speak to the head of the WBC this week, Maurizio Suleman, because Conor Benn's last fights were at middleweight against Chris Eubank.

39:02and now he's ranked number one by the WBC at welterweight, which is two divisions south, and he's got a title shot. So that's a big question itself. And Maurizio basically said, you know, Conor had always told him he was going to be going back down and wait after the Eubank fights, and so he was sort of keeping the spot warm for him. I'm not sure how the other fighters at 147 pounds feel about that. Well, I can imagine how they feel about that. But that, you know, you hit the nail on the head with your point. you know when when there's money involved and so much such a such a strong commercial aspect you can see exactly why it's why it's being made and it's not necessary you know people out there are saying oh it's the best fight in the best and i think there's a lot of fighters at 147 pounds that would dispute that as well um but you can't get in the way of these commercial juggernauts you just can't you know there's very little you know even when floyd mayweather had a domestic abuse charge around his fight with miguel cotto and they kept him out of prison so he could fight cotto in vegas and then he went to prison afterwards um you know where there's where there's a will

40:11Nedum:there's a way in this sport now tell me if if they're willing to do that what how much less would it be to be to cover up a pd test or a pd positive or you know just a do you see what i'm saying it goes back to your point about where you're where you set the moral high ground doesn't it yeah man and at the end of the day look sport is big business money talks yeah um and this is funnily enough this this goes to why you'll never get rid of peds because even before that even before there was money in sport there were peds there's all that you know people always want to push themselves and want to even if there's no money involved they want to see how how far human beings can go and and that aspect is never going to be is never you're never going to take that away from people so but then add money to the mix and it's like yeah well i'm trying to i'm trying to secure mine and my family's future so this is why i'm going to do what i'm going to do And Garcia-Bentress, just to finish this all off, do you think there's, is there more, I don't know whether anger is the right word, but are there more questions about this fight because of Ben going to welterweight than both having failed drugs tests in the past?