Wales rugby... What crisis?

0:02Gabby:This is a Global Player original podcast. There's been a lot of soul searching in England after the Six Nations disaster continued with their first ever loss to Italy. But for the team sitting one below them in the table, the problems run even deeper. Wales were a side that were ranked top in the world in 2019, but they've now only won two of their last 26 matches. And they have huge financial problems as well. one of four professional clubs is set to be cut. So how did it get to this stage? Has football stolen the limelight after the 2016 Euro success? And what do Wales need to do to get back to their former glory?

0:40Gabby:Their most capped captain, Sam Warburton, joins us. Welcome to the Sports Agents.

0:53The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Hello, Mark.

1:00Gabby:Hi, Gabby. Where are you? I'm sure it's a question that you ask yourself sometimes. In the same way that I'm like, where am I today? What am I doing? My alarm went off this morning and genuinely hadn't got a clue. Hadn't got a clue. Why have I set an alarm? First of all, I go, why have I set an alarm? Where am I? I'm in Newcastle ahead of the visit of Barcelona, who, of course, because of the way this competition is now, they've already played them this season, the first game of the league phase. I don't know what to feel about this, Mark. I don't know whether as a Newcastle fan, I feel like we're so up and down.

1:30We've had three defeats in five. They've had one in five. They score goals. We concede goals.

1:37Gabby:Trying to work out who and what Newcastle are at the moment is so difficult. With 10 men last week, they beat Manchester United. They then lose to Manchester City in the FA Cup on Saturday tea time when you did wonder maybe that was a good opportunity for them to get this cup run going. It's impossible. They could just as easily win 2-0 tonight as lose 2-0, couldn't they? I think we can win tonight. I don't know if we're going to do it over two legs. But anyway, it's been a crazy weekend, hasn't it? A rugby union which we're going to get into. You were involved in the FA Cup. Did you enjoy that?

2:17Gabby:I loved it, yeah. I heard Wayne Rooney say it was his most favourite game that he's experienced since he finished playing. This previous one, he said, was Barcelona, the Inter Milan-Barcelona game in the Champions League last year when he was with you. But now being with me has gone. Do you know what? We have to pull it round tonight. Yeah, exactly. It was really good. They're always great to go to, a Wrexham. And I know there is a lot of jealousy, maybe animosity from other clubs who think they get an inordinate amount of attention. And that probably has been the case. And they probably get picked for some games to be shown when you kind of go, really?

3:07Gabby:Well, you know, but there's the whole story there. But when you go there, the people are great. The people who work at the club are great. The fans are great. and I don't think anybody should begrudge a whole area that was struggling not just a football club but an area that was struggling being revived and to a certain extent reborn because of its football club and it I think it's a model to show you what is possible isn't it it's a model and to show what not just a football club but mainly a football club but also a sports club you know it could be it could be a rugby club or a rugby league team or a cricket team or whatever, how it can reinvigorate an area and give people...

3:51And I don't just mean the Hollywood influence because that's exceptional. It's just how that can impact an area. And something we don't really get into massively with Sam Walbert because we've already recorded this chat just a few moments ago is actually the communities in Wales where rugby has died, that traditionally were so associated with the industries of Wales and how, you know, and obviously this is a Welsh football story in Wrexham. So, yeah, I totally agree with you.

4:16Gabby:It's pride, isn't it, Gabby? Yes, yes, success helps. I completely get that. Success helps. But pride and, as we've mentioned on the pod before, the owners there have done it the right, they have respected the club and the area. They've tried to do it. You know, they haven't changed the colour of the seats. They haven't tried to do this, change the name. they've tried to respect the area and that's brought a lot of money with it and a lot of funding and i get all of that but there's a heart there isn't there and there's a heart in every sporting organization that just needs to be looked after and you you can't fake that no you can't you know there's an authenticity and any of those success stories you drill down and that's what it's all about and you know speaking of success stories happy second anniversary you actually missed it last week but um it's our it's our second anniversary of the sports agents we asked people to send in uh messages not not we didn't ask them to send nice messages we asked them to send messages pertaining to their favorite uh podcasts um so a few of those suggested were the one about sumo wrestling i loved the sumo wrestling one i loved the sumo wrestling one our trip to sail sharks got a mention yes yeah the enhanced games is still up there for people as well do you know in this building i don't know if it but in this building in the manchester global offices they they have all sorts of screens and and they they are either showing the track that's being played on radio x or heart or whatever but there is a screen that constantly has sports agents clips on a loop which is really off-putting when you walk into this office and in nine times out of ten it seems to always be the enhanced games clip that comes up comes up first and then the second one that i see all the time is us talking to john sople who who much as he's a we spoke to him out spurs one day i think didn't we yeah maybe he's a loved and respected colleague but you know he's not we need to get him back on again um if you've got any ideas of things you think we should be doing or you want to hear again uh you can of course do that when you email us the sportsagents at global.com and of course we'd love you to subscribe or follow and leave a review You can get in touch on socials as well at The Sports Agents.

6:29Gabby:As Gabby's mentioned, we've talked to the former Wales captain, Sam Warburton, particularly about everything that Wales have gone through and whether things are looking up for them. We'll touch on the whole of the Six Nations as well. He's next. The Sports Agents.

6:46The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

6:53Gabby:Sam, thank you very much for joining us. before we get into the rugby if you just move to your left slightly what's that that you're trying to hide behind you it's my it's my signed tottenham shirt which i'm very proud of still but it's not got pride of place at the minute because um it's gonna i thought it might initiate some stick but i haven't got away with it so um we have a theme or we have had a theme on this podcast in the two years that we've been doing it that most of my teams across a variety of sports whether it's NFL, football, rugby league, less so rugby union, cricket, they've all been crap for quite a long time.

7:29Gabby:So welcome, welcome to our world. It's the life of a Spurs fan, it's just so Spurs-y, I'm like well used to it now, I'm 37, I was six years old, five years old when I got my first shirt, so I've had 32 years of this, so I'm well prepped to deal with the possibility of relegation. Well, let's take you from the depths of misery in one sport to, I was going to say to another, but actually the few things that have happened with Wales in this Six Nations. We started off the campaign having chats about the politics off the pitch, what was going to happen when this kind of review finally gets kind of put into place, which clubs.

8:07but Wales have actually steadily improved on the pitch in the tournament alongside that England have capitulated so actually the noise around the kind of doom and gloom noise around Welsh rugby it's got a bit quieter it feels does it feel like that in Wales at the moment Sam?

8:23Gabby:Much more positive I like my barometer is when I walk the dog because a lot of people talk to me and then so many people now are like oh it's brilliant to see the team being competitive again some of the youngsters are really stepping up so even though we've still lost so many games in a row um apart from the sold japan win last year they're still on a on a bad losing run there's so much more positivity around the team now i don't think people have ever fallen out of love with the team people always have sympathized with the players and the team it's probably more the hierarchy i think the the criticism comes out but there's so it almost feels like a couple of wins because i think we worried we were going to become the 30 point whipping boys for the six nations and actually it's not the case wales have been very competitive and they could have they've come so close in a couple of games now so yeah much more positive on the field so fans are much happier back home i think they can see light at the end of the tunnel does that come from overall performances do you think does it come from moments and the re the reason i ask that is because if your prop dance dances through to score a try all of a sudden you know in the bigger picture it's not it's not winning a game but in the smaller things it puts a smile on people's faces and and every it has to start somewhere doesn't it i was listening to the ceo the six nations talk recently and when they were discussing about why rugby should be on free to air in certain home nations and with Wales they had data back which I this surprised me I only listened to this a few weeks ago they said that 70 to 80 percent of Welsh households have the rugby on during the Six Nations which is a massive proportion of the country and it and to your point Mark it does absolutely when Wales are we're not winning but they're competitive again it does lift the mood massively like because people have always taken huge pride in in the national team and you know with the with the fixture against france only being 57 000 in the first in the second round of the six nations which was an all-time low for the six nations you know then the crowds have significantly picked up since they went since the really positive performance against scotland and then there'll be italy at home would be a much more positive um crowd as well i wouldn't surprise if that was a sellout i've got people asking me now in the week have you got tickets and i never had that in the last 12 months now everyone wants tickets again so it's definitely on an upward curve and i'm really pleased that young players unless you're a george north or these freaky players very few players hit the international scene at 2021 like a pollock most people take until they're 24 25 until they can really grab the international game with two hands and we finally now got players who've had a couple of years now where they've been thrown in the deep end but dav jenkins derry lake eddie james these guys now are really stepping up to becoming i'm looking at going right yeah these are these are going to be test match players i'm really pleased to see that happening now with wales but it doesn't change the picture does it off the pitch and actually all those conversations we've been having over the last year or so about what happens next for welsh rugby to make sure that grassroots rugby and the supply chain you if you like of players is is going to be there we've kind of managed to skirt it the last couple of times i've seen you because things have been going better on the pitch in terms of the review that that happened and the and the announcement that you know first of all it was two then it's going to be one club where are we up to in that yeah i've got i've got away lightly actually haven't i gabby with her because we've been focusing so much on the performances i've got i haven't had a two headlines which has been quite nice because even though we do broadcasting believe it or not i don't like being in the headlines so it's been quite nice but um i've been thinking about this So with Wales, I look at the analogy of Fiji.

12:06Gabby:So Fiji don't have the infrastructure to have a domestic league. Their economy obviously wouldn't be able to sustain it for obvious reasons. Where they are in the world geographically, they've got a lot against them. But they don't use that as an excuse. They can still find a squad of 12 killer players to be arguably the best team in the world at sevens. Now, I think of that same analogy with Wales. We don't have the economy of scale and economy of England and the player base of England, France, South Africa and all these teams. But I refuse to accept that with the right pathway system, with enough provision, with enough feet on the ground, that we can't find 15 to 23 players who can fill a national side and be competitive at the world stage.

12:47Gabby:We can absolutely do that. I think we can. So what you need is, and my brother's actually working with you in the 20s. and I just messaged him the other day saying, right, who's the three or four from the 20s who will come through, do you think? And that's what we need to do is every 20s age group, you need three or four diamonds. That's all you need to look for. Even when you're 20s level, you know, Gabby, you know, Ruben's been at that level, your boy, like only not many still come through to make top international boys. But across an eight year age range, if every year for eight years, you can provide three really good boys, there's 24 lads there to build your national team.

13:21Gabby:Wales can do that. I absolutely believe we could do that. And they are now, to be fair, the W, there's a much more provision now at grassroots level, and we're seeing it now. There's 20s boys who people now are really looking forward to. People are talking about them in the next two years. That's silly. That's putting too much pressure on them. Like I mentioned, you've got to get to 23 to 25. In the next three to four years, those boys are going to come through, and they're going to be really competitive test match players. But that's going to be a five-year process from now still. which to be fair sam i suppose is what italy did yeah a decade ago it's exactly that exactly that and now we're looking at these players like oh where they come from it's like that's a slow conveyor belt which has been producing them but um regarding off the field the everyone voted in the chairman i say everyone voted in the chairman was voted in um by obviously the a good proportion to make change because how many times were we doing these podcasts people like there needs to be change doing the same thing is insanity now we've they're enforcing change everyone's like let's stay the same so let's keep forward now the thing with wales is is it's a fickle place people are saying we need to be aligned but what they actually mean is is let's stay the same and the wu give us more money that's not being aligned and that's not enforcing change and people want change unless it happens to their club now when the wu have had and i've been late noughties they've had something like three or four independent financial reviews now i'm not saying these are gospel because these independent financial reviews they don't understand maybe the landscape of the country and it's just looking pretty much at a black and white p &l now they've all said you've only got the money to sustain three teams wales have four teams this is what the data came back wales have four teams if you're comparing to england to every one of England's meaning that England basically have the players that we have provided our four teams per one club so we're hugely diluted which is why they we need to come down we don't have the same finances we don't have the same player pool but when people say we need to be aligned I'm like well all right well somebody when I was on and I'll be honest when I was on the Cardiff board I remember I was in a meeting and there was discussion about going down to three and I remember saying well okay well why don't we merge with the dragons and be the east team let this let you know let's take one for wales now if it means saving the ospreys and scarlets i think merging is better than just cutting one out so why don't we merge um double our budget and win europe as well but but a couple of significant people didn't want that to happen and i thought now i'm not burying cardiff we can super pump cardiff at the at the tier below and newport black and amber Newport, black and blue Cardiff.

16:03Gabby:And I've said publicly, we need to bring back Neath, Cletley, Pontypris, all these great historic rugby towns. So you wouldn't lose Cardiff. But for the greater good of Welsh rugby, if we have to go down to three, because four isn't financially sustainable, I'm like, I'll take one for Welsh rugby. I'll do that. But unfortunately, some people didn't want to do it because it affects their club directly. In terms of what's going on kind of outside of that politics as well. You know, we talked about in the introduction briefly, and this is something that's come up over the last decade, football's seismic kind of shift and rise.

16:39And, you know, it's gathered a different kind of fan base, maybe over the last 10 years. You see that kind of playing in the Cardiff City Stadium, which is a very clever move, you know, in terms of the atmosphere, the bucket hats, the cultural kind of resonance of football post-2016. has that had an impact do you think on the grassroots kind of um attraction both to play

17:01Gabby:and to support i i haven't seen that well i mean it depends in different pockets of wales but where i am we've got an under fives and the sixes which you think you know parents going to look at the data or what the proposed data is which actually rugby is very safe at grassroots level the data suggests it's more the the men's game we've got where i am 45 kids turning up every sunday to play rugby and i'm one of the volunteers who helps when i can when i'm not doing um rugby games and we've got 16 parents who have volunteered to be helpers we've got 45 players turning up every sunday with a waiting list as well so that the popularity is still there now when people blame and people won't like this but when people say the w aren't supporting grassroots look they're offering provision they offered all our coaches free workshops to go how do you coach kids like they're providing that provision grassroots clubs survive off the goodwill of the locals who want to help that club you can't fund coaches for every for the 300 grassroots clubs in in wales it's it would be impossible so the grassroots where i am and is is thriving because people are passionate about rugby they love it the kids turn up they're engaged my boy plays football as well um that football club's equally as is popular and football's always been popular particularly in cardiff and i go down cardiff city i've been there five times this year so i'd say i haven't seen a drop off in the popularity of the game where I am anyway if grassroots are complaining I'm like it's it's the volunteers you need to get there and um I'm fortunate where I am that the the families and parents are very supportive of rugby still a couple of things first of all is your son wearing the Tottenham shirt yes he has no no option with that still Mark even if we go down we're supporting him through thick and thin oh my god oh dear oh dear Mark you know you know the family dog is called Ledley don't you yeah he wanted to join the studio today but I wouldn't let him he tried to follow me in but led he had to stay inside unfortunately and then the second thing is obviously by talking to you the spot we're putting the spotlight on on wales and the spotlight is has been on wales over the last year the the the domestic issues the pathways the state of the national team there are financial issues with other clubs i mean let's not let's not forget looking at the gallagher prem you know that that they they're trying to ring fence this to make it to make it franchise based basically so there isn't promotion relegation me and gabby did have done a show at sale you know there are there are owners who basically are funding these clubs despite the losses that are going on the welsh issue isn't just an issue for wales is it no really when you look at the bigger picture no absolutely and that's why i think the gallagher prem are keen to expand because you know it means more more home fixtures for each team and I've always been a massive advocate of Anglo-Welsh.

19:45Gabby:And it's not because the quality of our league that the Welsh team is playing is poor. I think the quality is a very good quality. South Africans provide brilliant domestic teams. Ireland have always provided great domestic... And Glasgow Warriors have been brilliant at the minute. So it's not the quality. It's how much do the fans care? It's about the product. I'm sorry. I know it sounds... But it is weird. It is a weird league. It's a league of misfits, I've called it. Yeah. It's a league of misfits, and our fans, they're not passionate about, no disrespect to these teams, they're not passionate if a South African team or an Irish team or Scottish team comes to play.

20:20Gabby:But Cardiff City and Swansea in football play in the English system. Now, Cardiff City and Swansea will not be getting 25 ,000 people, no disrespect, if they're playing in the Welsh Premiership in football. No offence playing Newport County, TNT, they're not getting 25 ,000. They're getting 25 ,000 because they're playing in a product which is significantly better. No offence to the Welsh teams, but that's just fact. But what the Welsh teams need to do is they need to be good enough to add value to that league as well. It's just a bit of a catch-22. So we need them, but do they need us? If we're really competitive, then I think we've got a conversation.

20:55Gabby:Will they allow four teams to come in? That's maybe why the reduction needs to happen. Because then you say to people, this is why I think maybe the W can't be honest. But if they go, look, Anglo-Welsh might be on the table, but only for two or three teams. It will never be on the table for four. So what would you do? Now, if fans knew... Well, they've announced, haven't they? Sorry, Sam, but there is, you know, the announcement's on the table that they want to expand the premiership, the Gallagher premiership or whatever it will be called then, and they want to ring fence it. Now, that's very attractive if you're a franchise owner, isn't it, of one of those teams in Wales.

21:27Gabby:And then what I've read is, you know, Wasps might relocate to Kent, which means there's rugby in the South East. and then you know rotherham have been flirting around you because i think they really want another team up north as well yeah if there was an idea that welsh teams are possibilities they could go in which i believe there there's obviously been discussions about it then from a welsh perspective they should be like a rat up a drain pipe um to try and get into that angler welsh i understand the franchise nature because then an investor is more likely to put money in without worrying about immediate relegation which would be disastrous for them Before we let you go, back to the Six Nations.

22:02Gabby:Who's going to win it? What an open tournament. We say it every year, don't we, Gabby? But this year, I always say there's always one upset. This year, we've had about four. Yeah. I think France will do it on the last week. I think there's going to be a backlash from France. But we thought there was going to be a backlash from England when they lost to Scotland in round two, and there wasn't when they went back to Twickenham at home. I expect France to win, but I'd love to see Scotland win out in Dublin as well and prove themselves, probably, as much as anyone else. that they can be as good as everybody has hoped they would be over the past few years.

22:32Gabby:And I'm desperate. It's become a little bit of a rivalry between Wales and Italy now, particularly since I was quite vocal about relegation with Italy going back some time ago, which I'll admit. You just gave them – you poked them. You gave them what they needed. And I've ended up with a massive amount of egg on my face. And that's why I'm not embarrassed to be like, look, I got that wrong. And since I spoke to people, I'm like, okay, I agree now. Expansion's probably better than relegation. But I was just – at the time, they'd lost, what, for they'd won two games in nine years it was pretty hard to defend them but yeah sam the nature the nature of this job is you have to be wrong sometimes that's the nature of the job i got thick skin is fine i don't like i'm really happy that they're great my brilliant we want a brilliant away trip to rome where they're competitive so i'm over the moon that italy are and i'm probably as pleased as anyone that they're now well whales have only won two games in 26 sam so you know that that is coming right back at you if whales don't beat it oh gabby the amount of italians who've dm me on instagram going what do you think of relegation now and i'm like yeah fair enough although they got good english to be fair honestly look at some of my comments on my recent post it often from italian so it's a big game for me this weekend i think we've got any hope if scotland did beat ireland everybody every single man dog woman child in scotland is going to be doing something they never thought you know even imaginable they're going to be cheering England on later in the afternoon hoping they're going to beat France but isn't isn't the question to follow on from that is England can't play like Scotland did against France can they no but they can provide a physicality which France will find hard to deal with which South Africa did and I England did South Africa so I beat them in November and that's always been my question mark with France is but if someone dominates them physically can they do it and Scotland were brilliant physically now a lot of us were writing off Ireland at the start this championship i remember thinking ireland are a heck of a team they've been number one in the world world cup favorites two years ago that doesn't go when you've got a similar player pool as what they had before now this is the same with england that 12 game winning streak can't just dissipate into thin air that something is still there if they can find it so that's why i'm not ruling out england i'm you know i'm 80 certain france is going to win but if england can just rock up physically i wouldn't be surprised i wouldn't be surprised if they could stress france and then maybe the unthinkable for Scotland could happen if they go out to Dublin and win as well.

24:52On Rugby Special, you highlighted the disagreement that went on between Otoji and Finn Smith. When stuff like that spills onto the pitch, one can't help but wonder what's going on off the pitch with senior players. Does that potentially strike a kind of note of discord in that camp?

25:09Gabby:You know, like some players will do a book in three years' time and they'll talk about what's happened to Eddie Jones and stuff. Something like that is happening now. I think, look, this Felix Jones came and left and there's been no real explanation. Good coaches have come and gone, there's been no explanation. There's something that we're not privy to happening and that's what Bill Sweeney and the board need to dig deeper and find out because you just don't go from winning 12 games in a row to having your worst Six Nations Championship. There's something that we're not... We can tell something's wrong, but we don't know what it is and they need to find out what that is.

25:40In the longer term, though, I wonder what suits the hierarchy at the RFU. because, you know, the mood music is that Steve Borthwick might, you know, might be on very thin ice right now. And this would be the time to make a change if you're going to 18 months after a World Cup. If they pull out an historic win against France, does that change anything fundamentally with this England team and its coaching set up?

26:05Gabby:I think so. I mean, there is credit in the bank, but I do think a lot rides on this game. I do, you know. I think if they lost it, then it's the first time they've ever lost four in Six Nations history since it started. and if they win then it sort of gives them reason to hold on it's such a tough call it is such a tough call because a lot of good work has happened but I think if they can't see any improvement this weekend it's going to be very hard to defend to not make some change somewhere in the England set-up I will see you in Cardiff Sam can't wait lovely looking forward to it good to speak to you guys

26:44that's all we've got time for today You can always get in touch with us via email, thesportsagentsatglobal.com or message us on social media or via the link in the show notes. And remember, our past episodes are all available on YouTube, Global Player or wherever you get your podcasts. And please make sure you subscribe or follow and leave a review. And we will see you on Thursday. The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

27:10Gabby:This has been a Global Player original production.