Weekend Edition: A letter from the Lionesses to the Prime Minister

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast.

0:06Chris Paouros:With the Euros final on Sunday, memories come flooding back of England lifting the trophy at Wembley. England have won a major trophy for the first time ever. And of the letter they sent to the government immediately after the win, asking for equal access to school football for girls. Memories also of Spain's spoiled trophy celebrations at the World Cup a year later, which were overshadowed by the incident with Luis Rubiales. And Spain's high court has found the former soccer head, Luis Rubiales, guilty of kissing player Jenny Hermoso without consent. We are going to bring you much more on this story.

0:44Chris Paouros:So after this Euros, if the England players wrote a new letter, what could they ask for to make football more inclusive for women? More social media protection after the racist abuse Jess Carter has got online perhaps. More support for women working behind the scenes or is there something else? Welcome to The Sports Agents.

1:08The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

1:15Chris Paouros:Hello, I was on my own this week and this is what we did on the podcast. Marcus Rashford has moved to Barcelona. We discussed that with Spanish football reporter Guillaume Balaguet. I hope he doesn't speak Spanish because that will isolate him a little bit from all the noise that's there. But all the noise is really directed towards La Minha Mala at the moment. Obviously, Lewandowski is a big personality. Pedri is considered one of the best midfielders around. A lot of talk on him. In a way, he doesn't come to Spain as the Marcus Rashford that gets published in English media. He's a completely different guy.

1:49He's just a player that has to break through the first team. People remember him being very good at certain moments, but can he get to that level? That's the talk at the moment. There's no more about his background, about all the stuff that may have affected him on the way to the top. So in a way, and I'm sure he hasn't had this kind of conversation that Villa did in terms of protecting him, in a way he will be protected because he won't be the main star of that changeable.

2:16Chris Paouros:And after Scotty Scheffler's dominant win of the Open at Royal Portrush and the comparisons that are being drawn between him and Tiger Woods, we spoke to Andrew Beefy Johnston and BBC's golf correspondent Ian Carter about whether or not he really is the new Tiger. I think it's too early to speak at the moment. Being only a quarter into Tiger's major hall, I think it's too far out to start suggesting that. I haven't seen anyone since Tiger dominate tournaments and look so comfortable in major events since Tiger. So if we're breaking it down, Ian, Justin Rose said that the ability to close out tournaments is what separates Scotty and Tiger.

2:56Yeah, absolutely. And that's what I would say, because the key to your question was at the moment. And at the moment, I think you can compare him with Tiger Woods. I certainly have not seen a more dominant golfer since Tiger Woods in his pomp. And you look at the other events that he wins. You know, when Brooks Koepka was winning his majors in a quick spurt, he was doing nothing on the PGA Tour. and Rory McIlroy went that 11 years without winning a major but Scheffler is winning the biggest tournaments he plays week in week out whether that's the majors or it's the players championship he's the first player to successfully defend that he wins signature events for fun the only time he's been out of the picture was when he was recovering from that self-inflicted injury at Christmas time since he's fully recovered from that every single tournament he turns up at he is the man to beat and that's what the case was with Tiger Woods.

3:53Now whether he can match Woods longevity and this period has come at a slightly older age than it did for Tiger Woods but the span between his first major win and his fourth major win now is exactly the same number of days 1 ,197. So he is winning at Woods like rate and I think the fact is that he does have that clinical ability. And maybe it's through the perspective thing or maybe it's just because he knows he's better than everyone else in the way that Tiger Woods knew he was better than everybody else. He can shut the door on fields. And when he wins, he wins big. You know, all his major wins have been by three shots and more.

4:32Chris Paouros:And we had reaction to England's magnificent win over Italy. They're in yet another final. The BBC's kind of campaign of this Women's Summer of Sport was headlined, names will be made. I think we can all agree the biggest name that's been made has been Michelle Aujemang in terms of her breaking into the public's consciousness. And I read a brilliant column today on her saying that, you know, everything she embodies, the whole nation needs a bit more of. That kind of desire and energy and belief and never giving up. Did you come across her when you were coaching the under-23s, Anita? Yes, of course.

5:07She came through into our 23s programme relatively recently, you know. And I think she totally embodies all of those things. And everybody in that squad, including the staff, were like, wow, you know, this kid has something. Because she just settled into the group like she'd always been there. And I think that's been the same with the seniors. Just under two months coming into that senior fold and coming in, being impactful, looking like the pressure, the expectation, the occasion hasn't phased her at all is Michelle. Well, like she's enjoying it as well.

5:42Chris Paouros:There's a difference in not being phased and also just totally embodying it, enjoying it. Absolutely. You're seeing her going up to the crowd, giving it all some of this. You know, she's really relishing the moment. And I think we're going on this journey with her. We're literally watching in real time a star be born, in my opinion. And, you know, I think it's fantastic to see because tournament football is all about these incredible stories. And now she's got these followers now who are going to want to follow her. Catch up with all episodes of The Sports Agents on Global Player or wherever you get your podcasts.

6:15Chris Paouros:Hit subscribe or follow and don't forget to rate and review. So with the Euros final this weekend, we remember England's letter to the government demanding change. The Lionesses sent this immediately after their win in 2022. What should they put in it this time? We'll ask Vice Chair of Kick It Out, Chris Poweros, and UEFA whistleblower Sally Friedman, who both join us from Switzerland. The Sports Agents.

6:41The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

6:47Chris Paouros:Chris, Sally, welcome to the podcast. I've framed our chat as potentially a look at what the Lionesses would write in a letter that they sent to the government if they win the Euros, as they did three years ago. At the time, that was demanding more equal access for girls to play football across schools around the country. And to a large extent, you know, we've seen this massive success in that respect and the government committing to more coaches and more access. This time round, I don't know, it feels like the letter might contain some very different themes. Chris, I want to start with you on what we've learnt in the last week from so many of the Lionesses and their support for Jess Carter in terms of the rise of the abuse and racist abuse that they're receiving online.

7:31Chris Paouros:and even my mum, right, not a massive sports fan, 75 years old, she said, why is this happening? I don't understand. It didn't used to be like that for that women did it. And maybe it was, maybe it was just lesser. I don't know. What's your take on why this has become more of a thing or we're hearing more about it with regards to the women's game? I don't know if it's necessarily become more of a thing. I think one of the things that we've told ourselves is that women's football is more inclusive. It's always had a problem in terms of racism. I mean, you only have to look at the number of black players that are at that elite level.

8:05There were many, many more. If you look back to the early 2000s, there were many more black players. If you look at, you know, the lionesses of the past, whether that's Rachel Yankee, Leanne Sanderson, Anita Asante, a plethora of black players. Although, of course, the minute you can name them all, it still means we've got a problem. Right. And I think we sold ourselves a story that women's football is more inclusive. and it is in one sense but not in terms of race and ethnicity and I think Jess speaking up I think you know we have to sort of stand by her and actually in the middle of the tournament to have to say that is a big deal and you know she's one of the best defenders of the country and I think what she's telling us is you know your talent won't protect you your achievements won't shield you you can do everything right and still be dehumanized we saw it you know Bunny sure during the season had to take a step back.

8:56There's some women in sport research, actually. 48 % of black girls fall out of love with sport in their teens because of racism, misogyny and inflexible structures. You know, Kick It Out did some work with tackling online hate in football. And that sort of showed a sharp rise in misogynistic abuse during major tournaments. And they found that there was an increase of 584 % of misogynistic slurs online between the 2013 and the 2022 women's euros so if you kind of wrap that up with with the racism that comes with it so misogynoir if you like it's too much I mean I was at the game on Thursday and I missed the live broadcast but my friend Liz Ward didn't and she pointed out on her socials that a major broadcaster twice failed to name Michelle Adjaman when she came on and scored the equaliser, every other net player was named except the black player.

9:54Now, once is an oversight, twice is a message that you don't matter. Now, all of this together, whether it's kind of, you know, hot takes that Jess Carter's having a terrible game that then flips over into racism. And when Liz called it out, and Liz's a black woman, she got trolled. So we often say that women have to work twice as hard to get half as far. And for black women, that's twice more and then some.

10:20Chris Paouros:As you point out, though, so many of the heroes of the past of the lionesses, you know, and the inclusivity, I wrongly from my perspective, which is very different to being a young black woman, would have seen as being so inclusive because we know for years about openly gay players and about, you know, there's this sense that anybody can come and play women's football, the heroes that, you know, one of my colleagues, Alex Scott, and so many young black girls who found a safe space, it looked like in a sport and a sport they wanted to play and the access was there. It feels we've gone backwards then, doesn't it?

10:53Chris Paouros:Is this a football problem or a societal problem? Is this a, you know, do you see this in other sports? I know it's not your domain, but I work in athletics and I don't hear many of the black athletes talking about this kind of abuse on their social media when they've won Olympic gold medals or, you know, got into finals? I think the thing here probably is around the level of profile. So you probably, I mean, I know, you know, the black athletes are at the top of their game. It doesn't have the same level of profile potentially that something like a Euros would or that the WSL is beginning to have.

11:27And then I think when you couple that with online spaces, then you really are in a place where, you know, and you see that stuff. We have to hit the social media companies where it hurts them in their pockets. Because actually, you know, it's part of their business model, clickbait, online hate. It drives more and more traffic. And that's what they're after. Now, I'm not an expert in any of this, but you cannot tell me that it's not possible to build some algorithms to root it out. And actually, you root it out. And then if you don't do it properly, you're penalised. So we have to hit them in the pocket.

12:07You know, we've got the online harms act now that Kick It Out has been working sort of tirelessly behind the scenes on. But we have to see actually have some teeth. You know, we have to protect the players.

12:18Chris Paouros:Sally, your experiences are institutional. working within football and the organisation, particularly Euréfer, that you worked for. Just give us a couple of examples of the things that you experienced. Sure. So an example that comes to mind that's in the book was around the Euro 2020 uniform. Euro 2020, as we know, was postponed the men's tournament to 21 because of COVID. All staff at the office and on site were given a staff uniform. The trousers and shorts which went with that uniform were transparent. The girls quickly realised that when they tried them on at home. So everyone started wearing black or blue jeans because clearly we didn't want to wear transparent trousers to the office or on site at a stadium.

12:58I went to the office one morning wearing my jeans as every other girl was doing. And I was asked by a senior management of staff why I wasn't wearing the staff trousers. And I said, oh, I've heard that they're transparent. That's why I'm not wearing them. And he said, well, maybe you should wear them tomorrow so I can check. That's just one tiny little anecdote.

13:18Chris Paouros:So those kinds of incidents and battles, you're shaking your head there, Chris. They're just so unnecessary. They sound almost ridiculously childish and stupid because it's the kind of thing that you think would have been eradicated 10, 20, 30 years ago, that we're still talking about things like that, which is so easy to change. It's no wonder, is it, that stuff that's harder to change and more systemic is not getting addressed. I think this stuff is systemic as well, though, because I think everything Sally's just described, it resonates. And sadly, I don't think it's rare. What we see again and again is that individual experiences like Sally's aren't just bad luck or isolated incidents.

13:59They reflect those kind of deeper systemic issues about who football is built for and who it's not. so this is what happens when you've got structures that exclude women but expect us to fit into it so it's not just one organization or one incident it's the culture that football tolerates and the systems it refuses to change and you know we talk about football in this instance but that's you know this can happen in a number of industries that are so sort of so male dominated but football dominates our culture so it matters to sort it so for me i don't think it's the problem isn't that women are in the wrong place.

14:36It's that the space was never designed with us in mind. And so what Sally's just described is sort of anger making, exhausting, and the burden always falls on us to raise it, call it out and keep going. But this isn't necessarily ours to fix. It's for football's leadership to change the environment and not just ask us to survive it.

14:56Chris Paouros:Are there places, are there clubs, are there countries that are getting it right, are doing it better? And you must come across many different working practices, Chris. Yeah, I do. And I think, you know, I think what's difficult is that what we have to do is sort of make sure that we do proper sort of work on pipelines to ensure that you just have more women in the organisations. organizations you know we've got to redesign that pipeline and fund it properly because when we say we want more women in coaching more women refereeing more women in leadership we need to back it up we need to make it more affordable and we need to sort of ensure that we're not just talking about women at entry level or non-exec directors that we can put on a form saying we've got non-exec directors on our board there's a hole in the middle so you know if we've got women in all of those positions in the in the workforce I mean look are there clubs doing it well I mean yes probably but I think the problem is is that you know what you don't want to have is like one good outlier we need to ensure that we figured out how we how we sort of sort the system to ensure that it that it works for all of us and I think you know we've had the visibility now we need accountability we haven't even started talking about sort of setting minimum standards for tackling violence against women and girls across the football ecosystem you know what happens when you report something does it get minimized brushed off etc what sally described there is the thin end of the wedge we know it is some kind of online abuse is the bottom of a pyramid of abuse you know we let all of that happen and it gets worse and worse and worse so i think policy and structure is important and you need that as the baseline to begin to fix cultures.

16:44Chris Paouros:You've had incidents at matches. I know, Sally, in 2020 at the Euros final, which of course was playing in 21, somebody grabbed you round the waist and kissed you non-consensually. You've had incidents where you've had the title of your book, Get Your Tits Out For the Lads, shouted at you at matches. So there's the workings inside a club and an organisation And then there's the match day experience that I think that game, that final was quite something, wasn't it, in terms of what was going on there? It felt lawless in many respects. We know about the fans charging into seats. It felt like there was a lot that day that needed to change.

17:21Chris Paouros:But your experiences are not minimised because of that. You know, there seemed to be a lot of drugs and alcohol being used as well that day. But that doesn't make for good reading, does it, if you're wanting to get involved in football, if you feel like this is a safe space for you to go and enjoy a football match? It was definitely the perfect storm that day. You described it very well. I think the England fans were described in one documentary I saw as unleashed animals. Certainly, I've been fortunate enough to see football around the world and I've never seen anything like it. The walkway to Wembley was petrifying.

17:51And as you described in my book, I tell a story of a drunken fan grabbing me and planting a kiss and asking for a photo. I didn't know him, complete stranger. And he told my brother that was with me to look after your gorgeous wife. and my brother said that's my sister not my wife similarly recently I was in Munich for the men's champions league final having a photo with the big giant ball behind me on my own a girlfriend taking the picture for me and then some fans ask if they can join in and have a photo and I'm like yeah of course come on in and we had a photo and then I saw it coming this time exactly the same thing a guy that was next to me went to give me a kiss on the cheek for another photo and I actually ducked out of the way and sort of walked off.

18:33So I obviously had learned from the experience. I mean, I'm saying it with a smile on my face. We shouldn't be smiling because it's not right. And that's what we saw Rubiales do in front of the entire world. And although that was such a horrible incident, the only positive out of it I saw was that finally the world was listening. Yeah, we still have a lot of work to do. And I think you asked Chris the question about what clubs are doing well. I can mention one in particular that I think is doing a good job, and that's the club that I support, Brighton & Hove Albion, they are currently researching to build the only purpose-built women's-only football stadium, the first one in the UK.

19:08And in doing that, they are looking at all elements of what makes women's football different to men's football. Does the pitch need to be different? Because we see ACL injuries are seven times more likely in women's football than men's football. Is the grass that men play on the right surface for women? Toilets, for an example, at the Women's Euro here in Switzerland. Of course, there's huge cues for the women's toilets because women don't normally go to football, so there aren't enough. So in a stadium built for women's sport, will we see more women's toilets? Will we see breastfeeding rooms?

19:36Will we see all different things like that, places to park your buggy? So it is changing, although there's a lot of doom and gloom. I am hopeful and there are some glimmers of hope that I think we should talk about as well. Right, and they're also doing some work on developing women coaches. There's a brilliant programme in the NFL, Sam Rapoport, who did the work in the NFL. She spoke at the FA Summit last November and Brighton were the club that went, actually, this is interesting, and went out and got Sam and got her to do some consultancy to understand what it means to build more women coaches for men's football.

20:09Chris Paouros:More women's coaches across the board are needed, aren't they? That's the thing. And we talked about this to Lisa Nandy on the podcast recently. And I've read many kind of sport England studies that have been done about where women drop out and why they drop out of coaching as a career, going from kind of grassroots and then trying to incorporate it in their otherwise busy lives as mums and workers. Because at some point you're going to have to get paid for it. You can't keep doing it for free if you've got all these other demands in your time. And there is a cultural question there, isn't there?

20:37Chris Paouros:I had a conversation, wait for a big name drop, with Billie Jean King about this recently. And she said in tennis, it's completely normal for a dad to pay massive interest in a daughter's tennis career and be part of the coaching team when they're in the early, you know. And it's how in other sports, perhaps, you know, and we're seeing the change, I think, in women's football, aren't we? More and more kind of dads taking their daughters and it's getting both sexes involved in that kind of coaching relationship and not seeing it as a, you know, as necessarily just the mum's role in that. and that if you get dads involved, that also changes their opinions massively, doesn't it, of women's sport and where women fit into sport.

21:16Chris Paouros:Because this has to be a journey, I feel, Chris, that involves men. You know, it's not women in isolation, is it? Absolutely. And I think, you know, when we're talking about any of this, I think we need to reframe the role of men in driving change in this. This isn't a women's issue. It's, you know, there are leadership issues or there are coaching issues or there are refereeing issues. and it's overwhelmingly male in football even in women's football you know from a coaching and a refereeing perspective and you know we keep asking women to sort of speak up lean in push through everything we were talking about with Sally earlier but you could sort of argue the system isn't broken for us it was never built for us so instead of asking us to continue to be resilient whilst changing nothing around us we need to fix it and we need men to think about what that looks like and to think about how we can build a better game for it you know we we know there's countless stuff around sort of you know the business case of ensuring that you don't have group think in anything you're doing right whether that's in your coaching team whether that's in your refereeing cohort whether that's in your marketing team your commercial etc so actually if you want to ensure that you've got the best talent these are always marginal gains in sport and whether that's on or off the pitch and to ensure you've got the best talent you can't just have the same kinds of people doing stuff.

22:33So we have to think about what do we need to build our football pipeline on and off the pitch.

22:39Chris Paouros:Okay, so finally the Lionesses, they win that final this weekend and they sit down and they pen another letter on Monday. What should be in it? One of the most powerful images I received during this Women's Euro tournament was from a friend in the Netherlands that's got three young girls and they were all watching the Netherlands match and the little baby, the youngest, was actually at the TV screen, almost stroking the players. And for me, that was wonderful. That's such a nice image, powerful, that these girls are growing up, like I did, watching women play football. It's simple. We hear it all the time, but you need to see it to be it.