Why have English teams found the Champions League so easy?

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. Five English teams finished in the Champions League top eight to reach the last 16 without a playoff. If Newcastle join them, it will be the first time ever that six Premier League teams have made the knockouts. But how are these sides dominating Europe when we all keep being told or hearing that the Premier League quality hasn't been all that this season? Arsenal style has drawn criticism at home, but admiration on the continent. And then Europe's Premier competition has also provided some respite for the likes of Thomas Frank and Spurs, who are fourth in the Champions League group phase and yet are 14th domestically.

0:40Anthony Gordon thinks the Champions League style of play has benefited English teams. I think in the Champions League, teams are much more open. They all try and play. It's less transitional. I think in the Premier League, it's become more physical than I've ever known it to be. It's like a basketball game sometimes. It's so relentless physically. So is it about time with all the Premier League money that we're seeing this success? How does it reflect on the new look Champions League if one country is dominating? Or will PSG prove once again that the early stages don't matter? Welcome to The Sports Agents.

1:24the sports agents with gabby logan and mark chapman hello mark hi gabby how are you i'm okay thank you i see you had a night out on tuesday you scrubbed up and then got yourself a new uh a new person to make the trio up for the match of the day presenting roster we did i was uh i don't really do these things i can't remember the last like party like that that i've ever been to but the rate if you're on the cover of the radio times the radio times then have a party at the start of each year for everybody who's been on the cover in the past year and you and me and kelly were all on the cover so me and kelly went to this radio times party there were some celeb traitors there and there were traitors there and And I basically spent the whole night as Kelly's PA, just going round asking different members of the traitors if they'd have a photo with her.

2:20And that was it. But with Stephen, the three of us had the photo together. He was one of the winners of this recent non-celeb version of the traitors. Do you know what? We spoke to Faraz. We spoke to Harriet. We spoke to loads of them. But everybody was so nice. We had such a fun time. But I do think in the cold light of day the following morning that I may have had too much to drink because there was a long conversation with Stephen and Kelly and myself about whether one of his jumpsuits would work for me to do the FA Cup final. Well, here at Sports Agents House, we thought you'd been listening to last week's episode when you were away.

3:07We did on fashion in sport. And obviously you'd dressed up a bit for this party. And now you've revealed that conversation. Are we going to see some sartorial twists and turns in the match of the day chair? Can you imagine? He did say to me, he said, you know, I'm happy to I'm happy to lend you one of the jumpsuits if you want. I was like, yeah, well, maybe that's quite good BBC cross promotion. and then you know in the following morning i thought my god i'm at least 20 years older than him about 10 stone heavier than him nobody wants to see me in a jumpsuit cut down to between my nipples for the cup final well if you remember the previous presenter match of the day once started the show in his pants yes i mean anything is possible um and i i wouldn't put it past you if manchester united what's it well his was obviously if leicester won the league if Manchester United getting to Europe?

3:57No, we're not doing that. There's going to be no bets. No, nothing. We've got a big guest coming up a little bit later. Former American footballer, two-time World Cup winner, double Olympic gold medalist Tobin Heath's coming in, talking about her former club Arsenal and suggestions of favouritism surrounding the new Champions Cup. We'll discuss that with her. The sports agent is at global.com. If you want to send us an email, you can message us on social media or via the link in the show notes. And remember, you can catch up on all past episodes on YouTube, Global Player or wherever you get your podcasts.

4:32And when you're watching or listening, please make sure you subscribe or follow and leave a review. Next up, why are the English teams dominating the Champions League? We'll talk to football journalist Guillaume Balaguet.

4:47Guillaume Balaguet, welcome to the Sports Agents. Joining us from Naples, which actually was the scene of a bit of jeopardy and drama last night. Mark and I were chatting just ahead of speaking to you about the league phase in general. And I was kind of putting it to him that perhaps I'm not sure it's worth the seven matches or seven rounds that we go through to get to a night where there is some jeopardy. Have you made your mind up on the league phase yet? I love it. I really, really like it. First of all, two more games. Yes, two more trips. Not just for me, but for the fans as well. The opportunity with a new round to actually get the likes of Odoglimo, Karabakh playing again.

5:30The fact that there are more big games. And yes, the last day. All of that to me just sounds as a league phase that is giving us a lot. Because you don't have to compare it, as some have done, with the knockout stages. Oh, it's not as exciting as the knockout stages. It's not the knockout stages. You have to compare it with the group stages of previous years where most last days didn't mean anything. yeah I mean I used to find quite a lot of the old group stages very very dull and then there've been times this season Liverpool Real Madrid being a prime example of thinking well with about 20 minutes ago Real Madrid kind of they didn't go for it as they would do in a knockout stage probably because they thought they could manage this league phase and finish in the top eight which gives you an advantage straight straight through to the last 16 but actually that's been proved wrong hasn't it they haven't managed it and they made a right mess of it and Paris Saint Germain have done the same again Paris Saint Germain were fine and then have had a dreadful last two or three games into Milan even though they won in Dortmund last night lost three on the spin to suddenly drop themselves and so I keep going back and I keep going back and forth I keep sort of thinking are you playing within yourselves at times in the league stage because you know you'll be all right in the end is that because it doesn't matter because they've seen last year clubs finish outside the top eight and then go on and progress through the tournament and win it in PSG's case, Guillaume.

6:55But everything matters. Being in the group in the top eight, it matters a lot. And if you had any doubt if you should like or not this league, what happened at the end of the Benfica-Real Madrid game and not just the drama but the decisions that were made by the coaches which is for people that are so thorough in everything they do that they had to just improvised and in fact with not enough information. So you may have spoken about this, so cut this bit if you have. So when Mourinho brings two players on in the minute 93, he gets told that 3-2 is a good result. They go through. The players walk into the pitch and somebody says, no, no, no, no, we need another goal.

7:41What? It's like, well, I cannot bring any other players in, right? at the end when he asked the goalkeeper to go in the goalkeeper is running towards the Real Madrid goal not knowing why he doesn't know if he's got to score obviously they send him so it must be like yeah I need a goal but he wasn't sure Real Madrid was defending I think it was they had nine players at the time but they were defending with five players I think it was and they had three outside the box what? you could concede it could be bad for you no but they're thinking if we score another goal on the back of this, then we're okay.

8:19Isn't that great? Yeah. And also, it was an unbelievable header. It's elimination or glory. Oshnes takes... Trebin!

8:37Mourinho magic! A miracle from the special one!

8:47the most staggering of finales the least likely of goal scorers Anatoly Trubin forget it didn't hit him he didn't just sort of nod it it was an unbelievable header and not the first time he does it either against Porto he sent him over as well apparently Mourinho was explaining I haven't seen it but because he's tall and he's a good header of the ball. Let's get a little bit myopic, shall we, and talk about the Premier League sides and how well they have done in this league phase to end up with five in that top eight and then the three other teams representing three other leagues, if you like, as well.

9:29So, you know, there's not even a multiple in there. Is it a mark of the strength of the Premier League or is it just the Premier League teams finding that European football is really suiting them this season, the style of European football? Both are correct. But before we get there, let me ask you both one thing. It feels like because five have gone through the top eight, the impression I've got reading and hearing UK commentators is that, oh God, the Champions League is not what it used to be. Oh, it's so boring because five have gone through. And he's like, I can tell you, if that happened in Italy and Spain, we'd be like, yes, come on, we're the best, whatever.

10:09And why we are the best and why we have to make sure that we replicate so we continue like this. And by the way, wouldn't it be great if we had four in the semifinals? I was on Five Live this morning and I said to Rick, it would be four in the semifinals for Englishites. And he goes, oh God, that'd be terrible. What? What? No, no, it'd be great. so it's a little bit of of a feeling Do you know what it is exactly that Guillaume I think a lot of the supporters of each of the teams in there will be delighted for themselves that they're in there obviously and won't care what any general narrative is but they won't want to draw another I think the worst possible thing could be going out to another English team in a European competition so I think and also I don't think I may be contradicted I don't think the majority of fans of a club who are in the Champions League are worried about doing it for England or wanting other English clubs to be successful you want yourself to be successful you don't really want rivals to be successful so I think on that side I think that's why we're a bit and then I generally think for a lot of journalists and broadcasters they want a bit of variety and probably want to travel to some nice places some people I'm not saying Newcastle isn't a nice place but do you know what I mean Let me add something else the Premier League is the total priority for pundits, broadcasters, fans I think managers are changing their mind because a lot of them are Europeans if you like but it kind of feels like what I'm hearing is see, the Champions League is not that great.

11:54It's not like the Premier League that's really competitive. Won by two teams in the last few years, but never mind. So, you know, I think there's a little bit of that. But domination, yes, of course there is. It's obvious that it's got to do with the wealth, but more importantly, and that's the thing that everybody's trying to copy in Spain, in Italy, in France, everywhere, you get the best in every department, in every office. There is a professionalisation and a high level of performance at every level. Important to put into context kind of the difference in wealth. And ahead of Arsenal's trip to San Siro, this stat kind of blew me away a little bit.

12:36That four of Arsenal's summer signings are in the top five of all time of Inter's top signings, with only Lukaku ahead of them. and what Arsenal spent last summer is the equivalent of Inter spending of the last four years. Now, San Siro is being redeveloped and the idea is that the money, which will obviously be split between Inter and Milan, AC Milan, will help them to grow again and to bring in more players and strengthen their squads. But that, you know, when people talk of European football, they think of Inter as one of the great clubs. They've won the competition three times. You know, they have had some incredible nights and players, including last year's semifinal.

13:10But that difference in revenue, wealth and what they can achieve in terms of going out into the transfer market is stark, Guilherme. Yes, and there's so many examples of that. I mean, the wage list of Marseille is the same as, I don't know, Aston Villa, which is mid-table in the Premier League. Stuff like that you will find. But now money is converted into success. It's been coming for a long while that that has to be converted into football domination. But there is something else that is happening which has to do with what's on the pitch. and a good team dominates the four phases of football, attacking, defending, defensive transition and offensive transition.

13:51The best teams do that. They have to when they play in the Premier League. They have to be very good at everything, including the new trend, which is to be very, very good in defensive transition. That's what everybody's trying to do. Get the ball as quickly as you can. You don't give space to the others. That's how you dominate a football game these days. In Europe, you don't need sometimes those four phases when you've got quality with the players, or you need to prioritize one over the other. And now English sides are doing that. This is what Spanish teams have done throughout the years. In the league, they demanded certain things.

14:23When they got to Europe, they did the other things, and they did the other things very well. And that's happening with English sides. They're very, very good at being different depending on the context. That is so difficult to beat. And as I said, not even Real Madrid or Barcelona, only PSG and Bayern Munich are at the level of Arsenal, City, even Spurs. All those do the four phases very, very well. What do you make of Antti Gordon's comments that there's a more open style of play in the Champions League and the Premier League is just more physical and therefore the top Premier League teams benefit from, well, from basically teams not necessarily sitting back and waiting to hit a Premier League team on the counter.

15:09They try and give it a go. You know, a lot of these teams in the Champions League are successful and elite within their own country and think, we aren't just going to sit back. English football is at the vanguard of football right now. What is happening in the Premier League is what everybody's trying to imitate. And what's happening is what I was saying earlier. The domination is not by the ball. The domination is by squeezing space and time. That's what Anthony Gordon means, as well as, of course, set pieces and etc. But you have to be very quickly in your decisions and rhythm has changed. You have to be very, very fast.

15:46We are a step behind. We're doing the control of the ball. We're doing the domination of the ball. And then, of course, English sides feel that everything is a bit easier because they're not squeezed in so much, because there is not so much pressure on them. So Anthony Gordon, who's a creative player, We'll like a little bit of more space and time. Can I have that? Not in England, because that's where football is going and everybody's following that way. But at the moment, we're not there yet. So take advantage. You should have no pressure. And we said that earlier in the season. Four teams in the semifinals.

16:19And if you don't, it's failure. Wow. I'm exaggerating just for, you know, debate and clickbaits. But actually... Well, that's what I'm all about, KM. That's why you're on. That clip is going to go in. You'll see in the social. But obviously, there is room for surprise. Barcelona are very good in the offensive phase. Very, very good. And very good in the defensive transition, trying to get the ball back. But very bad in tracking back and defending in their own box. But you've got La Minna Mal. And that's the only thing between the Premier League and, say, PSG, Real Madrid and Barcelona. We've got top players.

17:02The top, top, top players, they're still attracted by, yes, the wages. That can be matching the Premier League wages. But also the aura of being at Real Madrid, being Barcelona, or being at Bayern, or being at PSG. And those guys, when things are very, very close, they can take the game in a different direction. But look what happened last season to Barcelona. The best Barcelona of this generation. They failed against Inter. What did they concede? Five goals in two games. you cannot win the Champions League like that. But then that leads me on to what I was going to ask you next. For all that we've talked about and styles and money and so on and so forth do you still think there's this sort of historical inferiority complex that can play a role when you get to the knockout stages?

17:49And I kind of feel we did it last night on the telly a bit. You're jumping ahead and going, oh right okay Real Madrid and Inter Milan are in the same bracket here as Manchester City for example um you know Paris Saint-Germain and someone I think I might be in the same bracket as Chelsea and I haven't got them all but you know we you plan ahead I think oh my they might get Paris Saint-Germain or they might get Real Madrid or they might get Bayern Munich do you think that you've you've described it as the aura of the elite players who are still at those clubs I wonder whether we also have that inferiority complex historically.

18:25You should have, because last season you had the same money and only Arsenal made it into the semifinals. So you should have a little bit of a complex and a fear, whatever you want to call it. But that's you and me and us discussing it and fans. I can tell you in the training ground, Arsenal knows exactly what they have to do to beat anybody. And so does, yeah, Spurs, even Spurs. And so does City and Chelsea. they know what they have to do. And of course, when you're Chelsea and you go to the Maradona Stadium like last night, and when it gets to 2-2, both teams needed a goal, but Antonio Conte looks at his bench.

19:02He had five less players on the bench than Chelsea. This is wealth, but it's injuries, etc. Meanwhile, Chelsea were bringing on Cole Palma. You think, OK, yeah, one hour I can last at your level, but after that, it should be the English teams going and taking the next step and winning. So again, everything you're talking about there, as well as the style on the pitch, you're talking about money effectively because to have those squads, it's about money. So 50 % of the top 30 Deloitte list of rich clubs, of the wealth of the clubs, come from the English top flight, right? And six of the top 10 come from the English top flight.

19:39So where are they going to catch up? First thing is the paradigm has not changed, by the way, because you've had this much money than us for 15 years and in the last 10 years you only won the Champions League twice. So, there's still, we're still not there yet but quite clearly it's going that way. The Super League already exists, it's in the Premier League and for everybody to catch up, you've got to do like for instance La Liga and Serie A are doing the money that comes in a percentage clubs are forced to put into infrastructures building new stadiums that will raise the money. Real Madrid and Barcelona are doing that.

20:16The rest, not so easy, but at least the training grounds are better, so you can do more work, you can impress better players in the likes of Villarreal or teams of the mid-class of teams. The difference of the money that comes in through foreign rights, for instance, it's so... Isn't it like$1.9 billion for England and just like$800 million or something like that? the only competition that we've been able to match in the last 15 years is through coaching and developing players and if the guys that have been doing that end up in the Premier League then yeah it's not going to be easy. So four English semi-finalists you're going for are you Guillaume?

20:57Say three plus one one could be PSG or Bayern or a good Barcelona. Which two are losing out then? Arsenal have got everything to win anything and it doesn't work anymore that what What is it that you're wolves in the winter and sheep in the spring because of you stopping as physically dominating? Because they can change the way of playing. Arsenal have got that. Even Liverpool have got that compared to European sides. There's your clickbait. Newcastle and Spurs stand no chance in the Champions League. Oh, no. He said plus one and I'm holding on to that. I'm holding on to that. And after the break, we'll be joined by two-time World Cup winner and Olympic gold medalist Tobin Heath.

21:55Tobin Heath has joined us in the studio to talk about the inaugural Champions Cup. This was supposed to sort out which was the best league, whether it was the North American Women's Soccer League or whether it was the WSL. But we're not going to get the final that everybody was craving. Yeah, it was. I mean, maybe it wasn't meant to be. Maybe the debate just needs to be ongoing. But it's these new formats that are allowing us to be able to actually see for the first time an African club team playing against a European club team that's never happened before in a competitive tournament. So this is the growth of the global game.

22:29The game doesn't just exist in the UK. The game doesn't just exist in the US. I know we want to debate back and forth, but Corinthians comes in and goes, hey, we're here too. And that's important. The big criticism and problem of the men's version, well, there were several criticisms of it, but one of them, and it's to do with the growth of the game, is the money on offer to clubs who were at the Club World Cup was so huge that it can then distort the domestic leagues in different continents with the amount of money that those teams got then going back into their domestic leagues. They are going to be considerably richer than a lot of their counterparts.

23:06Would that be a worry here if this competition continues to grow? Do Rabat go back with prize money that would distort their league? I mean, at this point in the women's game, there's no level of distortion that money at this point is even a question about. We need absurd amounts of money in the women's game. We're not even close to scratching the surface. So, yes, this is an incredible prize pool that was awarded in this tournament. But before we can even have that conversation, we have to look at the global ecosystem of the whole of football. And we're not even close to the conversation of any type of money being enough in the women's game to really affect the types of things that you're referring to right now.

23:46One of the things that ahead of speaking to you, we were chatting about and, you know, we're both across a lot of men's football, other sports. In this podcast, we talk about a lot of sports. This doesn't seem to have had the visibility that if I was Michelle Kang, putting the money into this that she has, 1.7 million, who, of course, is the owner of three clubs globally and owns the London City Lionesses, I would want a little bit more exposure for this. And I would want it to have a position in the calendar where it could could shine on its own, not be in the week, you know, that that the Champions League has reached its denouement in the league phase.

24:19Yeah, I mean, if you have a scheduling solution, because right now, both on the men's and women's side, scheduling is probably one of the hardest headaches, right? And then in our game, you know, we're talking about, you obviously have European football, which is the giant on the men's side. But in our game, we're talking about and it showed here in this competition, we have, you know, leagues like the Brazilian League and also the American League where they're completely flip flop. So we have Gotham and Corinthians in their preseason and we have Arsenal and Aspera that are in their season. So there's never going to be any perfect solution to this problem.

24:56And in the women's game, like you got to start. I know that everybody's like, it's not what we want it to be or the marketing or the timing or whatever. You have to start. And this tournament will continue to grow. The visibility and the understanding of it will continue to grow similarly to the Men's Club World Cup. And I know in football, in the history of football, especially on the men's side, it's really challenging to create anything new. But in women's football, actually, it's a really exciting time because we can create new things. And it's tough because there is like a religious aspect of football that it's like, no, this is the way football works.

25:32But women's football has the ability almost to reinvent and reimagine the way that sport can be. And I think for anybody, that's exciting because the world is certainly different. You know, 100 years from when we first started playing this sport that is today. So in that way, I think we have to encourage these new formats and these new competitions that are eager to put money into the ecosystem. So at any level that we have people that are stepping up, raising their hands, saying, I want to invest in this, we should be opening the doors to innovation and to the type of progress that we're seeing and interest that we're seeing, because you've got to start somewhere.

26:09Do you see it taking place this time of year? Because one of the accusations as well, Chappas, has been that it benefits Arsenal, obviously. Well, yeah, hugely. In its home city, in its home training grounds, and being able to use all their facilities they normally do, and be at this stage of the season. Or do you see it moving around? No, I definitely see it moving around. I think this is a great time for it. And for the Arsenal, they're being rewarded. They're being rewarded for a club that has shown up both on and off the pitch. I know what you're saying. They certainly are at the vanguard, aren't they, of innovation.

26:39And they have been the most committed club in terms of their women's team since day dot, really, in the professional era. You know, you played there, you understand what it takes and how committed and how much support Arsenal give their women. Absolutely. I know it's highly unlikely, but if Corinthians won this, then the thinking was, I tell you what, they've won it, deserve it. Let's give this event to Brazil next year. How would that affect the event? What would the attention be like in Brazil? You talk about sort of the growth of the game and where it is growing. What benefit would that be to Brazil and South America?