Why Ronaldo is CHASING Messi one last time?

0:02This is a global production. They haven't conceded after 71 seconds. Their game plan might well have worked against Morocco. I just want a positive and brave performance. We talk about Ronaldo, his celebration, where he pointed to his temple with his finger in a kind of, see, see? I wasn't putting myself first. It's the Jedi mind trick, isn't it? You know what I mean? They are potentially on a collision course. Portugal and Argentina, Messi and Ronaldo, to meet each other in a knockout match. As we all know, there is a sense of ego with the attackers. Breaking news. They do like to score goals.

0:34They're a tournament team. They know how to win and they've got this alien running around the pitch trying to make history. He's challenging himself physically. He's taking himself to the brink here.

0:52Hello, welcome to the Sports Agents. Nadam, how are you? Do you know what day it is? Do you know where you are? I don't. I mean, as in for me, I don't know where I... It's World Cup Day, yeah. Today? Do you know what? We're recording this. Today's even more of a World Cup Day than previous days have been World Cup days. Because today is the first six-game World Cup Day. Wow. Multi-view, split screen, this is it. The deciders, battle for first, second, third, fourth, all that stuff, yeah? First, second, third, fourth. You ready for that, Chappers? I am, yeah. I am very much on the bandwagon that this third place thing isn't very fair on teams that go first.

1:37And I'm not even Scottish. Oh, you're linking it to the Scots. Okay, okay, okay, okay. By the way, speaking of things that I thought were unfair. I thought the criticism of your shirt the other day was very unfair because I really liked it. Well, thank you. I actually think the criticism was quite minimal and driven. I'm not on social media, but minimal and driven really by quite a jealous pundit in Micah who hadn't got the bravery to try it and then tried to start a movement against it. I've seen Micah wear that type of stuff off air. so yeah the fact that he couldn't do it in front of a camera probably says a lot yeah and I just thought I just thought it's the summer it's the world cup and you know I've got that really summer summer world cup vibe in the studio in Salford why why not go with with that kind of why not go with that kind of shirt that's seen on the on the canal in Salford listen chaps you nailed it you nailed it but anyway anyway what are we talking about today I was just saying, the reason I think the third place thing is not great for Scotland is because, I used this example last night, if they're 1-0 down with 20 minutes to go, they have a, obviously they would like an equaliser to get to four points and that would guarantee it.

3:01but there's also an element of well if their goal difference then just stays at minus one and they finish third with three points that could be enough but they won't know whereas if you're playing on saturday and you're a third place team you definitely know what you have to do yeah uh that's if you're playing on saturday you're a third place team that can control the game so much that you can dictate the outcome um i think that's i think what you've considered there's best case scenario but most of these third place teams probably are not that but yeah yes i get that i get that we're um it's a good we're going to talk leonard messi a little bit later on uh felipe cardenas from uh the athletic will join us there south and north american football expert so we'll park messi uh what else has uh has stood out for you the other the other thing to say about recording this is we're doing it after uh england nil ghana nil in boston which doesn't really need much discussion, does it?

3:56So what else is to do? Solid clean sheet, Chappers. Solid clean sheet. That's what you've got to think about that. Yeah. No, it's a clean sheet for England. But no, that was a massive game for, say, Ghana. And to be honest, like not just West Africa, but just Africa in general, getting a chance to play against England and to do it in that manner, where it's fair to say that England didn't offer their best attacking performance as such, but Ghana and their commitment. I think in some ways, for me, it sort of highlighted one or two of the flaws and issues that England might face going further into the tournament.

4:29Because I think sort of creativity, almost the type of creativity you could possibly have with a couple of tens in there. But that, you know, they're on holiday. But yeah, creativity and things like that. I think that's going to be key going into the later rounds. Because the way that, say, Ghana defensively played, not in terms of their positioning for their defending, but the nature of it when it became close to their penalty box. Lots of other teams will be able to do that further down the road. So for England, who has the spark, who has the magic to be able to do that? And I think a few people caught wanting yesterday, in my opinion.

4:59But then if you play two 10s, you probably are losing one of Rice or Anderson, aren't you? No, no. Because you don't know more. Or are you not? No, I was talking about the two 10s that didn't make the squad, if you know what I mean. No, yes, I know. Sorry, yes, I do. I do. But what I meant was last night when he brought Rodgers and Ezzer on and use them both as tens with, he still had either Madweke or then Rashford and then Saka out wide. You are going to have to lose one of Rice or Anderson, aren't you? I know what you mean about Foden and Palmer, but you're going to have to slightly change your formation, which he might very well do.

5:36Yeah, I'd like to think with Thomas Tuchel that he's seen that and he's not somebody that's going to be really up or really down like we've seen with other managers before and just look at it analytically and decide what the best way is to sort of solve those problems in the future. I think for me as well I do like it when like in a game like that the nine stays patient and literally tries to pin back say the defenders for the opposition because as they then start to roam then they're always gonna as in the nines and so on talking about Kane in this particular instance then it makes the job for the defenders that a little bit easier to a certain extent and I think as I say people need to be patient when they're playing against teams like that but that means also patience in terms of staying in your position if you don't get a touch stay there because that will create space for others as opposed to in the end.

6:18People just gathering in the same sort of areas and just losing some of those battles. But I'm sure Tuchel will be fine. But congratulations to Ghana. Congratulations to them. That's a massive result for them. What else have you enjoyed? This whole, like how it's just ended up that say Mbappe, Haaland, you know, all these players are all playing back to back to back. Like storyline wise, that's great. But then obviously you've got the likes of Cape Verde as well. But to see the stars be top of the like goal scoring charts is exactly what this tournament needs when it's in the USA. And I like, this is my bias slipping out.

6:49I like the fact that Haaland scored a couple of goals as well. Then I asked him afterwards, thinking about this game against France, like it's a massive one for him. He says, I doesn't care. You know, because for him, he's Norwegian and the fact that they've made it out of the group is still the most important thing to him. You know, more so than any, like this star versus that star, this meeting of the Goliaths. He's just like, just says it how it is. Listen, I've scored some goals at this World Cup and we're in the knockouts. This is an incredible feeling and that purity, you know, of spreads for a lot more teams than I think we give credit for.

7:19They're definitely firing each other up, aren't they? And there is definitely, if one of them doesn't deliver, so that was Ronaldo in the first round of group games, and maybe on the basis that he didn't find the back of the net, you would say Kane from the second round of group games. If you're looking at Haaland, Kane, Mbappe, Messi and Ronaldo, then maybe after each game where they're not finding it, they just fall back a little bit. Yeah, and I think the danger with some of this, and don't get me wrong, as we all know, there is a sense of ego with attackers, breaking news. They do like to score goals, and they are being pinned in this sort of way.

8:00But you'd just be worried if, for example, they start playing a more selfish type game. Because if you're, for example, how many of those forwards that we've named would be happy if they didn't score a goal again, but the team won the whole World Cup? The answer should be all of them, but I'm not necessarily sure that it is. so yeah that's something to keep an eye on through these like Star Wars anyway Well from your earlier answer on Haaland your suggestion would be that Haaland would definitely be happy if Norway won the World Cup but he didn't score Kane would The other three would be quite interesting Yeah it would be and I'm not going to point any fingers because I don't want any of these fan bases attacking me online because I am just about online but yeah as I say I think some people are very much enjoying the moments that they are having at this World Cup.

8:46Let's just say that. But we'll see if they end up being the difference makers further down the road anyway. The other thing that I really liked in talking about Ronaldo was his celebration after Nuno Mendes scored the free kick, where he pointed to his temple with his finger in a kind of, see, I wasn't putting myself first. I wasn't putting myself first. I was thinking, and I gave it to him. it's the Jedi mind trick isn't it you know what I mean you bring out the Ronaldo from a free kick and people think he's going to take it well how could the keeper possibly save it when someone else other than Ronaldo scores it you see this is it chappers he's locked in he's locked in final one tactically which when people listen to this it may be after Scotland Brazil so it might make us both look daft how would you approach Brazil if you're Steve Clark because the other thing with Steve Clark the sort of background story there is that every time he goes to a back five or tries to be defensive he does he said it himself in the press conference he gets he gets massively criticized yes but yes he does but it nearly worked again i mean if they hadn't i know it's i know it's ridiculous inside if they hadn't scored conceded after 71 seconds their game plan might well have worked against morocco do you know what i mean you know what i mean by that yeah yeah i know i know what you mean jeffers and i'll be honest with you uh i did get a bit of pushback from some scotland fans about, say, like penalty decisions and stuff.

10:07But one place where I don't think I did was deciding or thinking to myself that they were possibly a bit too negative against Morocco. Because I think this Morocco side of this World Cup hasn't felt like the Morocco were four years ago who made the semi-final. And as the game was sort of going on, I thought Scotland could have and probably should have sensed that the game was there for them to go and take something from it. But I think the initial response to be defensively solid, that's great but then it just means as time passes you don't really get into an attacking rhythm and at some point you do need that because it's good to be like defensive first sure but you need the balance to be able to pick two accrued points and the first game against Haiti like it's an incredible result for them to win that game but I think there were issues with the performance which probably manifested themselves in that second match as well so I think the if we're completely honest playing against Brazil thankfully for them Rafinha's out so for the way that Ancelotti probably wanted to play changes but you can't necessarily let them get into a rhythm because if Brazil get into a rhythm, they're not the Brazil of years gone by where we say, oh my gosh, this is some of the best football we've seen.

11:11But they're good enough to get into a rhythm and to cause Scotland a lot of trouble. But the danger is how do you do that when it's now 35 degree heat in Miami instead of Boston? How do you manage to try and win some of those battles where to a certain extent, who's going to stop Vinicius Junior? Who's going to be the one that is matching them in midfield and so on? But I just want a positive and braver performance where people actually try and get on the ball more instead of just allowing the opposition to have that ball. Maybe that comes with people like Ferguson, you know, McGinn's and others, getting their foot on the ball, dictating a bit more tempo to it.

11:46Because if it ends up being a game where they're just chasing shadows for long periods because they want to be defensive, like in that sort of heat, that makes it a very, very long day. Quick reminder, you can catch up on our previous episodes on YouTube, on Global Player, or wherever you get your pods. You can subscribe or follow and leave us a review while you're there. And we will come on to Lionel Messi next as he becomes the all-time leading goal scorer at a World Cup.

12:16So let's talk more Messi then. Nadim's still with us. We're joined by Felipe Cardenia, senior writer at The Athletic, South and North American football expert. Felipe, thank you for joining us. One of the astonishing things, I think, when you look at Messi's stats is that whilst maybe not getting better as an individual in what he's doing on a pitch, his goal scoring numbers as he's got older seem to get more phenomenal. Like 12 of his 18 World Cup goals are since he turned 35. I think with age, it's easy to say, oh, he's like a fine wine and all that. I look at it from a different perspective when you're playing against him.

12:56I feel like it's gotten more difficult perhaps because of the way he's playing now. He appears in moments, in spurts. You can lose him even, I think, more easily during matches because he's not consistently on the ball. He's not constantly in the middle of the field running at you the way he has been when he was at his peak. And so over the years since he's come to the United States, when he came in 2023, I've spoken with coaches at Inter-Miami and sources around the team. And the one thing that I was always told is, we need to get Leo Messi closer to goal. And so that tells you a little bit of the strategy behind his goal-scoring numbers in his 30s.

13:41And certainly over the last few years, and what he's done with Argentina too, he led the qualifiers with eight goals, and he didn't even play in every single game. He had some injuries where he had to sit out. But they're getting him in positions around the goal where he has to take a couple touches and finish. And I think I give credit to the players around him. It's not easy to play that way, to find him in those spots. It sounds easy because it's messy and you just give him the ball and see what he does. But there's a lot happening around him. And then to defend that is certainly more difficult than it appears as well.

14:19Felipe, it seems as though whenever you see Messi play, especially for Argentina, there are a group of players that would do anything for him. And, you know, we've seen really good players exist in the past, but what makes him so different to where people are willing to do that? And every time he has a moment, it's like they share a moment with him. Yeah, I think it's the standard that he sets and it's a difficult standard to meet. Again, going back to conversations that I've had since he's come here, again, he comes to MLS and people think, well, he's taking a vacation And, you know, certainly you look at him physically and I think the league, the way the league is structured, the style of play where after the 60th minute, it becomes a track meet in MLS and you've got to run.

15:00You have to be willing to to be fit, to be in this league. And that's something that I've heard over the years. Yes, he's getting fitter. You know, he's put in the work, but the standard that he upholds, and this is also mainly in training, can be really difficult for players to match. And when you match it, though, you enter into this circle of trust that Messi has. And Argentina, I think, is just a different animal. They're there already. They understand how to play with him. He understands that the players around him are very high-quality players, that if he puts a ball at your feet, the first touch is going to be like a pillow.

15:37He doesn't always get that in the United States. And so there's been a growing process here for the players around him at Inter Miami to get to that standard. But once they meet it and he understands that they're trying to meet it, there is a camaraderie that becomes unbreakable around Leo Messi. It's just it's not easy to get there. Trust me, there have been players that haven't met that standard, that as soon as he sees that they can't do it, they can't do it in training, they can't put the ball where he wants it, they're not thinking fast enough. He will essentially discard those players. And so it's difficult.

16:10It can be difficult for players to meet that standard. But if they do, and you look at Argentina from 22 until now, it's just a machine at this point. Argentina, they are a machine. They don't always play beautiful football. But they know how to control games. They know how to get Messi involved. And they just understand that he's going to pop up and potentially win games for them consistently. That sounds like you, Nadim, doesn't it? When you passed to a teammate, it was like a pillow.

16:41I'll tell you a story off air, mate. I'll tell you a story off air. It's the exact opposite of that experience. You know, Felipe, so I'm somebody who played in MLS and I know how it works and I really enjoyed my time there. Like I take real pride in saying that I did that. But when someone the size of Lionel Messi was going to MLS, did you think he'd do as well as he has done? And did you think he'd almost have the desire to be successful in the way that we've seen across these last few years? I had my doubts. I have no issue admitting that. And it wasn't because I doubt Leo Messi. It was everything around him.

17:17You know, was he going to, you know, I talk about that standard, like how long would it take for him to realize that this isn't good enough for me? You know, it's the drop off is way too much. How do you adjust to that as an athlete that, you know, this is a superstar athlete, as someone who is used to being at the highest level, playing at the highest level, where everyone around him has the same mentality. And that mentality is the biggest issue in Major League Soccer. As you know, it's a league that's growing. It's a league that is physically demanding. It's a league where there are a lot of good players here.

17:53And I'm not an MLS truther. I'm not trying to defend the league. I just know that behind the scenes, there's a lot of work being done. But for these great, great players that have played at the highest level in Europe and have won World Cup, sometimes there is an adjustment period where they have to understand, OK, the players around me, it's not David Villa, it's not Zidane, it's not Pedri anymore. and Messi I think I didn't think he would still be going and breaking records and putting in these performances consistently in such a physically demanding league. What we're seeing at the World Cup this is what I've told people that reach out to me what we are seeing right now at the World Cup those of us that have been covering Messi since after the World Cup in 22 he comes to America and he just controls our life now that's all we do all we do is cover messy uh and so we know this is what he does every weekend okay he does this every single weekend multiple goals taking over games in the last minute in the last few minutes of a game you're thinking he's tired he doesn't have it the team is not good enough and then boom three goals two goals an assist a worldly and so he still has that and you know that that that's i think the power of leo messi that when you think you want to doubt him he pops up again what um what motivates him and then the second part of that is what will keep him going that is that is the million dollar question because you know there's there's a very famous interaction with some argentine reporters in paris after he won the world cup he's still with psg right he's not happy there but he's in paris doing the interview and after the interview they shake his hand and one of the reporters says let's keep going let's get one more and he looks at them like one more like like it was almost like i've done what i need to do yeah and here he is four years later you know chasing another world cup a back-to-back world cup which is you know so rare at this level so you know i think there's been some criticism some from some detractors in argentina saying that he's fallen into this uh record chasing um you know I don't think he would ever admit that, but perhaps you could argue that that's something that he's doing.

20:12He breaks the record here as the all-time winning goal scorer in the World Cup. If you think he doesn't want that, you're not facing reality. These guys want these records. Someone like Messi wants these records. Of course he wants to win, but it's a difficult question to answer because, like I said, every time you think he's going to say, maybe this is my last year, maybe this is my last World Cup qualifier, maybe I won't play at this World Cup, he's still doing it with this motivation of a 22-year-old. And then because of the personal motivation, that's also why I sort of asked it, because you kind of wonder whether you're in a situation with him and Ronaldo of who blinks first, and neither of them give any indication of blinking first.

21:01Right, right. No, I know. I mean, we're having this moment, I think all of us that lived through whether you were covering it or you're just a fan, you know, that 10 year plus span where Ronaldo and Messi were just going at each other as competitors. I didn't think we would ever be able to relive that. And we're getting a taste of it again, you know, on the biggest stage. if you didn't think Ronaldo was motivated yesterday to get himself in the headlines, I mean, you're not watching the same movie as us. And so I think we are at that point again. Who blinks first? Whose team gets fractured first or gets knocked out first?

21:43And they're on a runway here, Portugal and Argentina, to meet each other at this World Cup. And I've said it for the last few months here. If that happens, it's going to be one of the biggest sporting moments that we've ever seen. It's going to be on the American stage, which makes it bigger and, you know, whatever, however you want to, you know, describe it from a media perspective, but it'll be something like we've never seen. Where could, I keep looking at the athletic bracket of trying to work out who will end up where. Where could they, could they meet in the quarters then? I'm pretty sure it's the quarterfinals, yes, yes.

22:16Yeah, I mean. It's a big could though, it's a big could. Yeah, it's a big could. Like at this point, we just don't know. every day there's a different third-place team that pops in, and it's difficult to keep track of. But they are potentially on a collision course, Portugal and Argentina, Messi and Ronaldo, to meet each other in a knockout match. I can't think of a similar duel like that getting towards the end. Even if you look at, I don't know, say, maybe the best tennis, maybe tennis is the best equivalent of the modern era of this time of Messi and Ronaldo. But I don't think Federer, Djokovic, Nadal were all looking at when the other one would retire.

23:06From an American perspective, and again, I don't think it reaches the heights of those names that you just mentioned, like Federer and Djokovic, but you see it a lot here in the NFL where these veteran quarterbacks that have won everything and then they meet in this big playoff game and there's this moment where after the after the the game is over they meet in the middle of the field and hundreds of reporters are there and it's like this you know these two goats you know it's Mahomes it's Brady it's like that is perhaps comparable but you take Messi and Ronaldo and you have to multiply it by like a hundred to reach you know the the stature and the impact that it would have I was just thinking about this sort of rivalry and first things first like Messi has two years on Ronaldo so you know that that promise you that makes a huge difference but then also as the as the players have gotten older the conversations around them have kind of changed and you can kind of you can see the way that they are as players and the impact that that has in terms of the way that let's say football is played now because for Ronaldo in my opinion like he's built around the service that's provided for him whereas Messi himself can be the service and the finisher.

24:13And so with that in mind, people having long discussions about should Portugal still be playing Ronaldo at 41? They can never make the case for like Gonzalo Ramos to come in and replace him, but they're all trying to make the case about why he shouldn't have him in the team. Whereas for Messi, there's no discussion around whether he should be in the team. It's more like, should this player play alongside him? Is this the right person to compliment Messi? And I think Scaloni basically summed it up from Messi's perspective when he said, Everyone sees him as a god, but they also see him as just another power from the neighborhood.

24:43When you have that level of feel and power within not just a group, but a nation as well, then he's going to play until he decides he doesn't want to play anymore. Whereas for Ronaldo, I think he was dropped at the last World Cup by the previous manager for Portugal. And many people probably thought that should have been the end of his international career. They both had incredible careers, but Messi seems to be getting better. Messi just, and he's not, I don't think Messi is trying to play a role here. You know, he's very, I think, honest with himself. He played 90 the other day and he was exhausted, completely exhausted in the post-match interviews.

25:16He was asked, what's your favorite World Cup goal? And he's like, I can't even think right now. I'm too tired. You know, like he's not trying to hide from the fact that he's going on 39. He's challenging himself and he's putting, he's challenging himself physically. He's putting, taking himself to the brink here. And you mentioned, you know, what Scaloni said about his role in the team. And yes, it's not going to end until he's just not part of the team anymore. And that's something I think the players for Argentina now understand. I think there was those moments from 22 until now where they weren't sure if he was coming back and they had to think about it.

25:51They had to answer questions like, what's this team look like now? But they still have him. And I think when you still have a player like Messi, you take full advantage of it. You play with him. You understand the moment that you're in. And I had my doubts about Argentina coming in this World Cup. I was wondering, are they hungry enough? Are they hungry enough? Did they take their pre-World Cup planning as seriously as they should have? The answer is probably no. They even admitted that they didn't. And look at them now at the World Cup. They're a tournament team. They are a tournament team. They know how to win.

26:26And they've got this alien running around the pitch trying to make history, trying to score goals, trying to be happy on the pitch. And that's a dangerous and scary, I think, scenario for a lot of opponents. Felipe, thank you for joining us. Appreciate it. Enjoy the rest of the World Cup. It's my pleasure, guys. Take care. Thank you. Thank you, Felipe. That's it. If you've got a question for us, you can drop us an email, thesportsagentsatglobal.com or message us on social media at thesportsagents. Please make sure you subscribe or follow and leave a review. And we'll see you on Thursday.

27:04This has been a global production.