Will Arsenal handle the pressure this time? | Clarence Seedorf

0:02This is a Global Player Original Podcast. Arsenal is not a dead team. They're not dead. They are still much alive.

0:09Mark Pougatch:She was so unusual. There were no women in those kinds of positions, in any kind of administrative positions, and she has been a real trailblazer. Lilian Turam, I didn't like to play against him. He was like, any part of his body you would touch would be hurtful, you know, would be painful. So when I joined Real Madrid, it was seven years they didn't win the league and it was 33 years they didn't win the Champions League. The robot shattered a world record for a half marathon. I genuinely couldn't give a s***.

0:49Mark Pougatch:So we're going to talk about a lot of things. I think while we have, we should say his name, Clarence Seedorf. We haven't guessed on the clue. In the Sports Agents, we should talk about the run-in. He knows all about the pressure of kind of go for multiple trophies, doesn't he? I also kind of just, I know it's got to be current and we want to talk about Champions League and we want to talk about the title run and so on. I just quite like reminiscing with players from a different era. Particularly, there's something, I know he was slightly later, but for me and our era, There's something magical about Dutch players who played for AC Milan because of the first great wave with Hullet and Van Basten and Rijkaard who were all there.

1:33I just love talking to Dutch players about their experiences in Serie A.

1:37Mark Pougatch:Having worked alongside him for the last couple of seasons, he's very giving in talking about that era and the greats that he played alongside. So you'll have a lovely time, I think. Thank you very much. But we will talk about Arsenal's run-in and what the rest of Europe thinks of Arsenal as well. because we get a bit myopic sometimes, don't we? And he's definitely a man of the world, is Clarence Seedorf. He is. And I am coming from the perspective that I actually think Sunday might help Arsenal because I thought that's the best they've played for quite a while. So perversely, even though they lost, I think it may help them as well.

2:14And it is marathon week, isn't it? So we've got plenty planned for the pod later in the week. But I haven't really followed this. I don't really understand. A robot runs fast in a marathon.

2:24Mark Pougatch:Yeah, I mean, that kind of is the story, but we might expand on it a little bit as well. Welcome to the Sports Agents. So Wolves finally are condemned to their fate, which is to play in the Championship next season. I was just looking through their finances this morning. Oh, were you? Yeah, I just thought I'd have a quick look. They don't seem to be in a bad position financially. Right, OK. So they seem like they've sold a lot of players, obviously, which is part of the reason why they're in the situation they're in, having been in the Premiership since Premier League since 2018. So it feels like they're equipped in the way they run to come back up.

2:58I also think they've been planning for it for a while. I think even the appointment of Rob Edwards was kind of with one eye on getting back out of the Championship next season. I think some of the transfers that they did in January, and as you say, selling players and moving someone, and bringing in someone like, I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but bringing in someone like Adam Armstrong, who is a very successful championship striker, I think they're already preparing for it. The thing that I am trying to work out is what this means for Spurs, who now play Wolves.

3:35Mark Pougatch:I asked this question on Match of the Day, because psychologically, I think you did as well. Is it better or worse for Spurs? I don't know. Would you rather be facing them when they've got something to fight for, but when their shackles are off, are they a harder team to play? Exactly, exactly. And I think if you're a Spurs fan, you're not just thinking, I mean, it's just our luck that they now will have, there's no pressure, they will have... Because you see it, don't you, so many times. You do, absolutely. Just one thing after another for Spurs. We're recording this, if we move away from the pitch, we're recording this on the morning that it's been announced that Karen Brady is leaving West Ham after a very long time.

4:1716 years? Yeah, 16 years.

4:20Mark Pougatch:And of course, as a 23 year old, she's 57 now. It's when she first took over at Birmingham City, having persuaded the Davids, Golden Sullivan to buy Birmingham City. So she's been a football administrator of some sort since she was 23 years old. So that's a long time. It's 34 years she's been working in football. And it's very easy to forget, especially if you're in your 30s or 40s, that she was so unusual back then. You know, there were no women in those kinds of positions, in any kind of administrative positions. And she has been a real trailblazer. And she's held her own in a very toxic environment at times.

4:55Mark Pougatch:And I just read a piece Martin Samuel just wrote in the Times about... He was very full of praise for her, wasn't he, actually? Yeah, he was. I think, you know, putting into context just how hard that journey has been in terms of the... Obviously, she moved West Ham out of their beloved Berlin ground. and she took them into what was the Olympic Stadium, now the London Stadium, which was a tough journey for West Ham fans. It had to be done, though, in terms of increasing the capacity. And somebody had to take that ground as well. That was the thing. Spurs were obviously vying for it, weren't they?

5:27Mark Pougatch:And she got that deal over the line. But from a personal perspective, she was so encouraging and supportive of me when I first started out. Yeah, she would reach out. She'd send me little notes. She once sent me some flowers for something that I'd kind of won. And I felt that she was a real, you know, she just held her hand out and said, you know, you can come on this journey type thing, but without being patronizing at all. And then I interviewed her for a documentary I made about women in football. And one of the things she said will stay stays with me forever, which is about supporting how she supports other women in business.

5:59Mark Pougatch:And that is that she her own personal investments. She never invests in anything if a woman isn't on the board because we talked about quotas. Because at the time there was a Norwegian exec who was on the UEFA committee. She was the only woman because Norway has a positive quota system and we don't in this country. And she said the way she supports it isn't by saying we need a positive kind of, you know, quota. It's by actually putting her money where her mouth is. And I thought that was really powerful because, you know, she does her kind of supporting in a slightly different way, you know, for women in industry.

6:33Mark Pougatch:And I think she's been a force for good. But it's interesting that we were discussing this morning, there aren't that many women around her. Well, no. Spurs had a high-powered female chief exec, and Everton did as well. And they have both moved on in the last 18 months, two years. And I do, when we were discussing it, in any walk of life, you're going to have to have diversity. of I mean diversity full stop but diversity of thought and if you've just got a whole load of middle-aged men as chief execs sitting in a room at the Premier League debating stuff you're not really going to have that much diversity of thought are you no or a will or a willingness to maybe do things differently that's the bit that's the bit I think if you've lost the three of them I don't think that's I don't think that's going to help the overall game no it doesn't kind reflect well on the industry does it that that is the case that the decision makers are so predominantly white male middle class you know yeah and that was her point to the point of having women on the board is diversity of thought like she said you know people need to come from different backgrounds have different experiences to bring you know their their ideas to the table so um although that that documentary that you did always makes me laugh because that was it wasn't supposed to no no no but do you know why it makes your life because what was it 10 years 10 years ago a bit more than that a bit more than that 15 i think and i was interviewed no you didn't interview me you didn't come down to interview me for that but because i was presenting 606 and my producer of 606 was a woman but they interviewed me uh in the match of the day makeup room and i had a can of hairspray over my shoulder and that's what i remember one of the girls trying too hard to fit again.

8:26Mark Pougatch:We have a completely different landscape in broadcasting now, clearly. And nobody can deny the changes in front, behind the camera, in production, every part of the industry. But I think football administration is a different thing altogether, isn't it? Agreed. We are in marathon week. Are you ready? One of my favourite weeks of the year. Yeah. Already had my first production meeting and it's only Tuesday. Yeah, something big's dropping on Friday. I think I already accidentally said it on this podcast. Did you? Yeah, and it got we had to kind of like remove it because I went early with it. Doesn't sound like you.

9:00Mark Pougatch:I know, imagine me releasing some kind of news or important information ahead of the press release. Yeah, there's a very big character running the marathon. Okay. I kind of, you know, for children, an iconic character. Oh, that one? Yeah. You were never meant to say that? No, no. I've since interviewed that thing.

9:23so um it's so that doesn't that's not announced till friday apparently not you know what if it

9:29Mark Pougatch:i think you mentioned it at the start of february i went really early with that one um so i'm i yeah i love it there's there's not there's been a few big dropouts emil caras who was probably going for a british record has dropped out um there's been a few high profile elite athletes dropping out but it's never really about those stories i mean sometimes you get a gift and an amazing story going on at the very very front but it's about the human kind of stories that we hear from so many incredible people so um get your tissues ready because i've seen some of the stories i know i think here we go again it's that it's that time where we all watch it on sunday i think we'll do that maybe next year yeah you've been saying that for a while maybe next i know i have uh i know i have over the weekend then this robot what the robot shattered a world record for a half marathon it was 50 minutes and 26 seconds 26 seconds in china yeah had its batteries changed though along the way i'm not surprised i'm not sure what this proves really i genuinely couldn't give a shit beautifully put i i don't understand i don't understand why it's a why it's a story that Guess what?

10:42Mark Pougatch:Also, a car could go faster. Yeah, yeah. And it's not the future. Clearly not the future. But, you know, it's quite funny seeing a robot run, obviously, because it just is funny, isn't it? Seeing something that's not human kind of running down the street made of metal or some kind of plastic. But don't worry. Sunday, we'll have no robots. It'll be all human, brilliant, wonderful stories and great people. OK, next we will talk success and heartbreak in title races. The one and only Clarence Seydorf joins us next.

11:23Mark Pougatch:Clarence, great to see you. Have you dried out since our last meeting at Anfield? Sort of. Knowing you, you've probably been in seven countries since last Tuesday. Yeah, more or less. Did you have a chance to see any of the big game in the Premier League this weekend, which was, of course, Manchester City against Arsenal? Yeah, of course. And what did you make of that? Well, I think there are some indications that Arsenal is not as fresh in the legs as they should be in this stage of the season. They lost a lot of duels, midfield, many times there were four against two, and then City ended up having the ball time and time again.

12:19Second ball's transition was not the way we know from Arsenal. They had their chances, they had a bit of bad luck finishing sometimes, but I think that the luck comes to your part when you do all the right things as well. And I think, of course, unfortunately, a psychological aspect with a young team in terms of experience in winning prizes showed in this match the difference between the two. So, yeah, it was not a disappointing match because I think Arsenal still competed. But those details make the difference in the end. That psychological side of it is the most fascinating, isn't it? and the belief that City have.

13:07There's a stat going around, Clarence, that since Arteta took over, Arsenal have spent more days at the top of the table than Manchester City have, but City have won four Premier League titles. I mean, that is crazy. Yeah, I do believe, you know, Inter Milan had a similar situation maybe 20 years ago. You have to win to break the cycle. There's no way around it. You have to just win to break that cycle. And it comes with players with big personalities, leadership on the pitch. I think Arteta has done his part. It's also up to the players to do their part. And I hope Arteta is not doing the wrong things in preparing the matches, of course, because some boards can make a difference for the good or for the bad.

14:04But I believe he has been shown to be very competitive with his team for so many years now. So I believe that it's also up to the group to really have that belief. And there's one aspect I think that Gabi and I spoke about this a while ago, is that when I was in AC Milan, we would do the pre-season and the physical preparation thinking about being fresh in March, April and May and we would pay a bit of the price because it would be heavy training in the beginning of the season so it would be with slow starters and then around December January we would have another moment of preparation to really be at your best physically in this period.

14:51And I believe that is something I'm seeing. I don't see that in the team of Arsenal and many other teams. But those teams who actually are used to this, I think they prepare for it. It's a mental thing. And scientifically, you can do this, right? Because if we have athletes who prepare four years to go to the Olympics to sprint nine seconds and something, but to be at that moment, at that peak, it means that science can help sports science can help to prepare for it and we know that in England a lot of matches are played but it's not about that it's really just prepare the group that you want to be at their fittest at that moment when the damage is made fit and I believe that Arsenal doesn't have all the players available first of all and also is not performing in the same with the same freshness that I saw Man City had in this match.

15:49Mark Pougatch:Do you think as well, though, Clarence, because you think they've got all the psychological, kind of physiological help. They've got this amazing backroom staff. They're stronger as a squad than they ever have been. They've brought in some brilliant players over the last two transfer windows. Has Pep got into Arteta's head? And if you took Arteta kind of out of that scenario, or you took Pep, actually, let's go back to that one. You took Pep out of that scenario, and it was somebody else managing Manchester City in the last couple of seasons. Do you think Arsenal would have got over the line? No, I don't think so.

16:24I think it has to do with everything. It has to do with Arsenal itself. Anything that is external from Arsenal would be an issue for me. I think the winning or the losing is something that comes from within. And it's not over yet. So I believe that this match, I have to say something. I've seen this match in a way that I say, okay, Arsenal is not a dead team. They're not dead. They are still much alive. But the difference between the two for one match was definitely visible. But I think that if Arsenal would be able to perform in the same way they did against City, against the other teams that are upcoming, they will be able to win their matches that's what I believe but again if the fear will start having the upper hand.

17:22Clarence can I go back to the the winning mentality side of things when you played for some of the great European clubs was was that winning mentality passed down from generation to generation? Yeah, I mean, winning helps winning. It is a funny part of things. When I joined Real Madrid, it was seven years they didn't win the league and it was 33 years they didn't win the Champions League.

17:53And it took a new, fresh team. It took a lot of different elements coming together, huge belief. but there always was this belief within Madrid even so many years passed by but that's what I felt when I came there there was like a crazy optimism when it came down to the Champions League and in general just winning but it came from within the group and I have to say actually we had a very difficult year the first year with Capello we won the league after the seven years and the second year Capello left the team he went back to AC Milan we had Joop Hankins on the bench with us and we struggled it was not a we struggled in the league we were I think 6th or 7th we ended up that year but we won the Champions League and it was really it came down to the players actually that drive the world to really go for personalities we had leadership we had experienced players as well some that already won the Champions League but mostly there was a great mix of let's say unexperienced and more experienced players I don't like to go to the age stuff because that is not always relevant but yeah it does go down and then the whole environment the belief of the fans to give you an idea from a cultural point of view in Spain I think three four months before the final they started preparing the celebrations of the final and we were still in the quarter finals at that point so and yeah that is also cultural because in Italy we didn't even have anything prepared with AC Milan a week before we would play the final so because of because of high superstition But I think in the case of Arsenal, and I think Inter Milan is probably the best example because Inter also for I don't know how many years didn't win the Champions League, didn't win the league.

20:10And then they got this amazing squad together. They win the treble. And from that point on, they never look back anymore. So I think really it's about the players and also it's about the staff in the terms of how they prepare this play because you need to put the players in the right conditions, as I said before, about the physical part to prepare them to be at their best in March, April and May.

20:40Mark Pougatch:On the players, a lot's been made of the clip of Declan Rice, unusually for a Premier League footballer, not covering his mouth and saying, this is not over on the final whistle, saying to his teammates, you know, this is not over. And if I was an Arsenal fan, I would take great comfort from knowing that one of the best players for them this season, arguably one of the best players of the season until a certain point, has got that belief that that wasn't it on Sunday. I hope it is belief and not something else. You know, we know how psychology is. It's very profound. Sometimes we say things where we don't believe it as much.

21:19Sometimes we don't say things that we believe actually very much. So I think it's about putting down the performance that is needed as a team, the belief as a team. I think that was probably a little bit lacking in the match against City for so many reasons. That little difference makes a difference. But they were, in my opinion, competitive enough that I can see them winning the next matches upcoming. And they have all the reasons to still have this high energy because they're still in the Champions League semifinal. there's no reason for Arsenal not to believe in themselves but again the fear can kick in about okay what if if the what if comes in your mind that's a game you don't want to play with yourself I hope they will be capable of doing it it's all up to be seen I wonder, I mean in some ways we're all guessing aren't we I wonder whether there actually is a bit more of a freedom for them now everything had been building up to this game.

22:23Can we keep City at arm's length? We lost at home to Bournemouth and now City are within three points of us. Now they literally just have to go out and win every game and try and score a hat full of goals. I know that's very simple but I do wonder whether in some ways it frees them a little bit from the pressure? Yeah, that is very possible. I hope that will be the effect as well that you don't have nothing to lose. I mean, they should, in my opinion, focus on their attacking capacity again and their transition. The strength that they showed defensively had a lot to do with how they attacked in the first half of the season.

23:03Very compact, very aggressive as a team, right? And one of the things that stood out for me was that many times in even four against twos, it was the two of Man City City who would come out with the ball and it was happening too many times, it was so unlike Arsenal even the first goal coming and dribbling four plays in the box that would not happen maybe five, six months ago but those things can be adjusted based on what you just said, maybe now that pressure is off we've done the Man City match and now we can just crews back in in in our old uh fashion way and and get the two nils you know and and win the matches

23:48Mark Pougatch:i do i do hope they they they can manage and and uh clarence in terms of um the the kind of reflections around europe on arsenal you know you're a man who you work on italian uh coverage of italian teams for prime you know you're you're a citizen of the world i know every time i speak you've just got off a jet from somewhere else. So that we're not too myopic here, what are the rest of Europe thinking about Arsenal? Are they revered? Are they admired? Oh, absolutely. Arsenal has always been admired because there is a clear philosophy, there's a clear way of playing. Even Arteta has changed a little bit that aspect of nice football and not winning.

24:30He actually knows also how to win ugly, if you want to put it like that. Very concrete, very solid defensively. I think that is something that we haven't seen from Arsenal in the last maybe 15 years or so. That defensive capacity that makes a difference and that made a difference for Arsenal. And there's a lot of respect for Arsenal. But there's also the same idea about Arsenal that, okay, but are they going to do it this time? So it's more expectation, a bit of doubt. but that expectation because many people would love Arsenal to actually win because they deserve it in the eyes of the fans and stuff.

25:13Mark Pougatch:If they overcame Atletico Madrid which of PSG and Bayern Munich do you think they would have a better chance against in a final? I think Bayern if I have to say because I believe PSG is a bit more solid defensively than Bayern is and I think Bayern and we have seen many goals in the last match of course. I think Bayern allows a little bit more space for counter-attacks but they have an aggressive ability to score goals and create chances pretty easily. But between the two I think that Paddy's... Former Spurs player. Yeah. Well, yeah. But their goal record and what they've done is phenomenal. Yeah, phenomenal.

26:02I mean, Kompany has done an amazing job with the team. And Paris Saint-Germain has, even more than last year, I believe they are capable of doing both very well. Like they can attack and go and score and create chances. But then when they decide to sit a bit lower and it's hard to get through the defence, I think Luis Harrique has done a great job. And I think that is also the experience of having won the Champions League. They had moments where they struggled, especially in the beginning of the season. So the experience of this young team, because still they're very young and a lot of young players there, can help them through certain phases of the match where you need to read and say, OK, we're going to be very compact now as a team.

26:50And I think that's why Paris Saint-Germain would probably be a little bit harder to play against, I think, than Bayern. But actually that brings us full circle, Clarence, doesn't it? because that comes back to the finally getting over the line in something and how that changes not only the mentality of the people involved for Paris Saint-Germain, but actually how we view Paris Saint-Germain. And even this time in the league phase when they weren't that brilliant in the league phase, but they sort of did enough again. At no point did you worry that much. Because you've seen it before. Because we've seen it before.

27:25So that's how quickly the perception changes and the feeling internally and externally. changes yeah true true true but but you know we've said it so many times as well gabino i mean at the end it is about these last three months to to get in your best form and um that has to be in your mindset um as a coach as a club um from the athletic coaches as well um with a specific focus on your most important plays need to be fit in this period.