Labour proposes new Danish-style immigration system

0:02Hi, I'm Charlie Duffield and welcome back to The Standard Podcast. If you're new here, hit follow and give us a rating. For all the latest news, head to standard.co.uk. Coming up later in the show, is the government overlooking the problem of rising legal migration? These reforms are predominantly designed to stop small boats crossings, to discourage people from coming here that way. But there is the other problem of legal migration and the fact that so many industries and services and employers are still reliant on foreign labour to keep going. But first, Home Secretary Shabana Mahmoud has announced a radical overhaul of the UK's asylum and immigration system, inspired by what Denmark has done over the past decade.

0:56The Nordic nation has famously tough measures, and the Home Secretary is said to be impressed by how Denmark has driven down the number of successful asylum claims to a 40-year low, with the exception of 2020 amid pandemic travel restrictions. Now, her illegal migration crackdown has been billed as the biggest change to the asylum system in modern times. But does it have the backing of Labour MPs? Here's Nottingham East MP Nadia Whittem addressing the Home Secretary in the House of Commons, followed by Shabana Mahmood's defiant response. The Denmark-style policies briefed in the last couple of days are dystopian.

1:38It's shameful that a Labour government is ripping up the rights and protections of people who have endured unimaginable trauma. Is this how we'd want to be treated if we were fleeing for our lives? Of course not. So how can we be adopting such obviously cruel policies Is the Home Secretary proud that the government has sunk such debt that it's now being praised by Tommy Robinson? I'm disappointed at the nature of the question from my honourable friend. I hope she will look at the detail of the reforms. And what I've said already on these matters is that we have a proper problem that is our moral duty to fix.

2:15Our asylum system is broken. The breaking of that asylum system is causing huge division across our whole country. It is a moral mission for me to resolve that division across our country. I know that the reforms I will be setting out later on today can fix this system and in doing so can unite what is today a divided country. So what exactly are these proposed changes to our immigration system? They include fast-tracking the deportation of illegal migrants, an overhaul of immigration rights law and changes to refugee status. The government has even said that people who arrive in the UK illegally could have to wait 20 years before they can get a permanent settlement under their proposals.

3:00The Home Secretary has also threatened to stop granting visas to people from three African countries, Angola, Namibia and the Democratic Republic of Congo, if their governments do not improve cooperation on removals of illegal migrants. The move was reportedly inspired by Trump administration Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noram, according to The Times. It's also been rumoured that visa sanctions could be imposed on India if the country does not take back more illegal migrants. And one specific move borrowed from Denmark is rumoured to be plans to confiscate valuables from asylum seekers when they arrive in Britain.

3:42It's been reported that this could include cars, bikes, jewellery and watches, but not wedding rings or heirlooms. Here's Home Office Minister Alex Norris speaking on BBC Breakfast about why the changes are necessary. Asylum claims are going up in the UK whilst they're going down across Europe. Our system isn't working, the British public know that. It's not fair, it's not controlled in the way that it has to be, and it's putting pressure on communities across the country. public confidence is low because they've seen a system that has uncontrolled people coming in an uncontrolled manner in small boats that they know is not fair that actually people who do need to get that support.

4:21I know our country is a generous, open and tolerant one, but they're saying people who need to get support have the queue jumped by people who don't. So, you know, public confidence is low. They need to see delivery. He also pushed back on the idea that the changes are a political strategy designed to appeal to reform UK voters.

5:02I know how generous, open and tolerant we are, but that's being tested because we haven't got that proper order and control at our borders. However, Shadow Home Office Minister Matt Vickers said that while the plans are small steps, perhaps in the right direction, they contain lots of gimmicks. He said the UK needs radical solutions to this horrendous situation and reiterated his party's call to leave the European Convention on Human Rights. Yesterday, before the Home Secretary spoke in the Commons, I chatted to The Standards' chief political correspondent, Rachel Burford, who suspects there might be yet another Labour rebellion brewing over their proposals.

5:40Rachel, remind us why these reforms are being suggested. These are being billed as sort of once-in-a-lifetime reforms, the biggest and most radical since World War II. They're really being used, the government says, to crack down on the number of people crossing the channel illegally, which as we know now, there are sort of tens of thousands a year coming across in small boats. This has become a real political issue for the government. We're seeing the rise of anti-immigration parties like Reform and politicians like Nigel Farage. And on a political standpoint, this is a way for Labour to sort of quell, I would say, public concerns about immigration.

6:23No government or Home Secretary has really been able to stop migrants and asylum seekers coming across the channel from France. So this is kind of being billed as a way to stop these crossings. And the number of small boat crossings has been increasing, hasn't it? Early this year, it was at kind of record levels. Immigration charities and asylum secret charities argue that there are very few ways to actually come to this country. For some people, some people are coming from these very war-torn areas. They've not been able to find other ways of coming across. The government argues that actually it's people trafficking gangs that are facilitating these crossings and they need to be cracked down on.

6:59When the weather is good, we are seeing hundreds of people a day sometimes coming across in these boats. It's a very dangerous crossing. We've seen a number of people die in the channel this year. It's a very visible form of immigration. People are seeing these boats crossing every day. It's something that voters don't like, and therefore the government feels it really does need to crack down on this. So talk us through some of these changes. Among those are things like visa bans. So the Home Office is singled out of three countries, African countries, Angola, Namibia, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

7:30For basically visa sanctions, they're saying that if they don't accept back people that have come here illegally and can't stay for whatever reason, have failed in asylum claims or have overstayed their visas. If those countries don't accept those people back, they will face a blanket visa ban on people that are coming here, tourists, VIPs and business men and women coming from those countries to Britain. The border minister, Alex Norris, said that the government was looking at other countries that refused to take back migrants as well and could impose visa bans on them, countries including places like India.

8:02That is a sort of quite a significant part of these reforms. They're going to be cracking down on deportation appeals. We've seen asylum seekers have many chances if they do fail to get asylum in this country of appealing that decision. And that can sometimes take a number of years for it actually to go through the courts. So the Home Secretary is set to outline changes under the European Convention on Human Rights. Basically, rules set out under the European Convention on Human Rights, things that protect people from torture or degrading treatment, and Article 8, which guarantees the right to family and private life.

8:40They're being looked at. Failed asylum seekers have used the legislation to avoid deportation from Britain. But under these reforms, only those with immediate relatives, such as children or parents, will be able to remain in the UK in future. And they will look at sort of fast tracking those appeals and deportations under these plans. And they're going to change the law as well so that multiple attempts to appeal against refusals for asylum will no longer be allowed. Let's go to an ad break. Coming up, find out what exactly about the Danish formula is so appealing to the Home Secretary. We'll see you back here in just a moment.

9:22Welcome back. Tell me about the most controversial measure. One of the really controversial changes is going to be on refugee status. So under these proposals, refugees will have temporary status and be required to reapply to remain in the country every two and a half years. And that means migrants will have to wait two decades, 20 years before they can apply for permanent UK settled status. It essentially means that people granted asylum could be returned to their home countries if they are considered safe in the future. So at the moment, you know, we don't deport people back to places like Afghanistan.

9:57But if in 10, 15 years time, Afghanistan is considered a safe country, again, potentially people that have made alive for themselves after being here for over a decade could be returned. And this has obviously created quite a lot of controversy among Labour MPs themselves and also with asylum charities who are saying that this could potentially lead to sort of a Windrush style scandal where you get mass deportations of people who've lived in Britain for many years. And the Refugee Council has estimated that the Home Office would need to review the refugee status of up to 1.4 million people between now and 2035.

10:34So it's a huge number of people. Another move sort of borrowed from Denmark's plans is confiscating valuables from asylum seekers. This is also controversial because these people arriving in this country with certain things could have them taken, including things like cars, electric bikes, jewellery and watches. But the government has said that won't include wedding rings and heirlooms, how they would differentiate between those things we're not sure about yet. And I think the government is arguing that these policies are designed to stop people coming across. There was some pretty provocative language by the Borders Minister, Alex Norris.

11:10He said, we want to stop the UK being seen as a golden ticket, was the phrase he used for some migrants, and to bring down those numbers that are coming across the channel. So these are quite extreme measures in some people's eyes and show the public that they are doing something about these channel crossings. And on a political standpoint, it's trying to head off that sort of rise of reform who are winning elections, both on a local level and soaring in the polls. And a lot of these reforms are said to be modelled on Denmark's system. Tell me a bit more about that. They introduced what's been described as sort of hostile immigration policies as a way to crack down on immigrants coming there after there was sort of anti-immigration sentiment in the country.

11:53The Home Office has been looking at other countries and what other countries are doing. So, I mean, some of the things like the visa measures are being modelled kind of on what Donald Trump is doing in the United States. These plans that Denmark have introduced to stop people coming are also being looked at. This idea that refugees can be returned en masse isn't correct, and that hasn't happened in Denmark, because people coming from brutal regimes, where there are dictators, war-torn countries, that doesn't get solved overnight. and Denmark haven't seen mass returns and therefore we probably won't here as well.

12:28So they're certainly controversial, but they are things that have been adopted by other European countries, which is why the government is hoping that they'll work here as well. Now there's been a strong reaction to this news. Do you think the government will face a challenge getting these asylum plans through Parliament? I think the real danger for the government is going to be their own Labour MPs. Tony Vaughan, who's the Foxton MP, he said the Prime Minister said in September that we are at a fork in the road these asylum proposals suggest we have taken the wrong turning. The idea that recognised refugees need to be deported is wrong.

13:00We've already seen backbench Labour MPs force government U-turns on things like cuts to benefits for disabled people. I think these are going to need to be very well managed by ministers and by the cabinet, because at the moment, there are a lot of backbench MPs who feel very uneasy about this. And it's not just MPs representing constituencies that maybe wait, there is a very diverse population like MPs in London, for example. But you've got MPs in constituencies where reform is a major issue with voters saying, actually, I don't think this is quite the correct way that we should be dealing with this problem.

13:40So I think there is certainly going to be pushback from some parts of the Labour Party. It's a very fractious party at the moment. There's a lot of MPs that do not like the way that Keir Starmer is running the party at the moment, do not agree with a lot of the policies. What is being seen as this lurch to the right to kind of see off reform is making some MPs quite uncomfortable. But the fact is they do need to do something about immigration. This is just to tackle illegal immigration. But what about those migrating here legally? What's interesting is legal immigration far outweighs illegal immigration.

14:16About 48 ,500 people came to this country illegally in the 12 months to June, that compares to 834 ,000 people who came to the UK legally for things like employment, to study for family or humanitarian reasons. There's a lot more publicity around, you know, small boat crossings and asylum hotels than there is perhaps about legal immigration. But people are starting to worry a bit more about legal immigration now too, and how many people are coming over. Now, a lot of those people are coming here to study from places like India and China, you get a lot of care workers and NHS staff coming from places like Pakistan and Nigeria.

14:55And I think that is also sort of being looked at. We've already seen earlier this year, there was an announcements about visa crackdowns for people coming here to work and how they were going to sort of try and wean the country off from what they call cheap labour, particularly in things like the care system. And finally, why do you say it's a problem for the government to solve? It's been an issue for well over a decade because of Brexit. We have fewer people coming from Europe and we've relied on countries like India and Bangladesh and Pakistan and Nigeria for workers where previously we perhaps relied on Polish or Eastern European workers.

15:32It's become more visible to the public and some voters are seeing it as a problem. when you talk to people who run care homes and people in the NHS, they say, well, without these people coming here, we would not be able to run these services. So there needs to be a balance. And if you don't want to rely on immigration, you need to train more British workers to work in those industries and get British workers wanting to be involved in them, which I think is a problem. So you can't just crack down on immigration and then have no answer to these employers that say, well, we need immigrant workers because British people aren't here to do those jobs.

16:19And that's The Standard. For all the latest news, head to standard.co.uk. If you'd like to get in touch, please do drop us a line at podcasts at standard.co.uk. We'll be back here tomorrow morning. We'll see you then.

16:38SENTANCE