Should kids be allowed in pubs?

0:02Hi, I'm Charlie Duffield and welcome back to The Standard Podcast.

0:30and eat crisps, and be under the table playing, and having a nice time. And that absolutely can still happen, and fine if it does. Generally, though, that's sort of like, you know, it's your local neighbourhood, maybe around the corner, and maybe there was a bit more of a sense of community in times bygone, and a little bit maybe more safe, because people knew each other and knew their neighbours, and I just think it's changed a little bit. But first, picture the scene. It's finally Friday, and you've headed to your local for a well-deserved pint.

1:02Except you find yourself surrounded by not one, but several children. Perhaps even a whole gaggle of small people making a mess, screaming, crying and generally behaving badly. Today we're tackling one of the capital's talking points. Should kids be allowed in pubs? It might seem surprising today, but children have only officially been allowed to enter pubs for the last two decades. and some think boozes should be adult-only spaces. Since the Licensing Act was introduced in 2003, under-16s have been permitted into ale houses around the UK, provided they are accompanied by an adult and if the landlord allows it.

1:44But now an East London pub has barred children from 7pm after customers complained it was starting to resemble a crash. Bosses at the William IV pub, located on Leighton's High Road in East London, said they have received feedback from customers regarding children in the pub. Although they insist they want the pub to be welcoming to everyone, the owners declared that children will not be allowed inside at certain times. They added that unsupervised children can pose risks to themselves, staff and other customers. And they're not the only pub to take this type of action. In Lancashire, the new inn announced it was to close its doors to children, citing complaints over the mess some were leaving behind.

2:2660 miles away in Chester, one pub has enforced a blanket ban on children after promising punters a unique and old-fashioned atmosphere for grown-ups only. Meanwhile, in Manchester, the airport pub has invested in its play area facilities to cater to customers of all ages. Joining us now is The Standards news reporter Megan Howe. Megan, why has this pub in particular decided to ban kids after 7pm? So in a bid to sort of curb unruly behaviour, staff are also sort of cracking down on disruption during the daytime. If you have a look at some of the Google reviews, they mention sort of badly behaved kids who bounce off the walls, sort of babies crying constantly and buggies blocking walkways.

3:08So the pub basically announced their policy change on social media, saying that the move was necessary to maintain a comfortable and enjoyable environment for everyone. So the new rules effectively come into force today. And are there any other examples of this type of policy? It's not the only pub that's obviously done this. Meanwhile, the Kenton and Hackney is also reviewing its policy on children following a number of incidents involving repeat offenders. So the pub also took to social media to say there had been accidents involving children with some parents blaming the venue rather than supervising their little ones themselves.

3:43they also reiterated in their posts that this is a pub not a playground so it's kind of brought back that debate about whether pubs are the right sort of spaces social spaces for children a national debate that obviously took off sort of last year do you think other pubs in the capital will take similar action i think it's certainly possible if they haven't already i mean this isn't necessarily a new thing lots of pubs in london have sort of curfews for children per se with sort of adult-only hours after sort of 6, 7, 8pm. I would say a blanket ban on children in pubs is rare. There was one instance last year when a man posed for a photograph next to a sign which said, friendly, child-free, outside the lower Red Lion in St Albans.

4:26It sparked a national debate around the issue, with some accusing the pub of sort of fuelling a culture where it's socially acceptable to hate children, while others claimed a pub is not a place for children, So very much as a sort of divisive topic on where the pubs are, are the right spaces for children, really. So what's been the reaction to this news then? There's been mixed reviews to the news. The William IV in Leighton turned its comments off on its social media post. This was reportedly because it had caused some controversy. However, there has been a lot of support for the move as well, with some of the comments on the Kenton's page saying that they'd obviously done the right thing by sort of putting their foot down and that pubs were not the place for children to be running around, climbing on furniture, etc.

5:10Particularly after early evening time or when food is not being served. There are some people saying, you know, why are children in pubs if food isn't being served? Or, you know, it's early evening time when people are obviously there to drink. And what about you, Megan? What's your opinion about all of this? I think during the daytime, on the weekend, when families obviously want to meal out together, then that's absolutely fine and that absolutely should take place. Particularly given many pubs are struggling with the rising sort of operational costs, energy costs, cost of living and sort of changing customer habits as well.

5:49To a certain extent, pubs obviously rely on families and the customer families to keep afloat. So that's really important. However, pubs are a shared space. Children should be supervised. they shouldn't be running around or disrupting other customers. Do you have anything else to add? The Kenton put it in the right way, really, which is that pubs are not playgrounds. You know, they're there for all people of all walks of life to come and enjoy. Children, particularly young children, should be supervised in pubs. Let's go to an ad break. Coming up, is the pub even an appropriate environment for children?

6:24We'll see you back here in just a moment. Welcome back. Now the standers Niva Yadev took to the streets of the capital to find out what Londoners had to say on this topic. Should children be allowed in pubs? Yeah, I think they definitely should because even though there can be atmospheres where there can be quite drunk individuals, drunk men, I feel like that doesn't mean that all lives are in danger in any sense or it doesn't mean that kids are going to be affected by that. I think that as long as the pub is run in a way which is safe and makes sure that the staff know that the kids are safe, then it should be completely fine.

7:05And in a sense, part of British culture is going to the pub, having a nice family meal, and I think they shouldn't be not allowed. It's a part of childhood to go to a pub. I mean, normally the thing every weekend you go to the pub with your family. That's how you meet family. That's how you communicate and connect. What about people who say it's too rowdy? then I think like obviously like there might be some pubs where like people like locals might know that the atmosphere there is too rowdy so I think it's up to the parents to like you know choose to take their kids to that pub it's also up to the pub staff or like the manager to like make sure it doesn't get too rowdy because that's on their behalf but yeah and do you think that you can let your hair down if there are kids at the pub um yeah I think so yeah if you know the area yeah I know the people are quite common with it.

7:55When my children were small, we took them into the pub because we would be going out as a family, and it meant we could keep an eye on them. Obviously, there needs to be controls done, but yes, I think it's a family environment. And sometimes there is a thing that we make alcohol have a mystique about it, that then when they get older, they just want to go out in the pubs themselves. I don't think children should be allowed in pubs after certain times because when people have had a drink, children are running around and can cause problems. Obviously, once it gets a bit lively past, I'd say, what, 9, 10 o 'clock, then maybe it's time to go home.

8:40But I was a pub kid growing up. We'd be in the pub all the time when I was a kid. Yeah, I was the same social club down until... 10 o 'clock and then we had to go home because it was past over 18s only but I think that's how it should be run yeah as well I don't know it's not a black or white issue right it kind of depends on the establishment kind of depends on time of day have a young daughter I wouldn't bring her to a pub at seven o 'clock at night or eight o 'clock at night when you would figure it's mostly like an adult clientele I think if it's early in the day off hours maybe a little bit more at the parents discretion but at the end of the day though it is kind of up to the establishment too they have a right to decide who's you know who's allowed and who isn't but as a parent you know appreciate the flexibility of having places you know to bring my whole family.

9:29Up next here's The Standards food and drink writer Josh Barry. Josh what did you make of this news? Do you see it as a particularly controversial topic? I don't think it's controversial at all. I don't think it's a debate. I think it's down to the landlord or the lady of the pub. It's their decision, it's their business, and there's nothing to moan about. There's no debate at all. It's entirely the business owner's decision. So does it perhaps depend on what type of pub we're talking about? Yeah, as ever, this is a debate on social media, so there's no nuance whatsoever. Pubs differ wildly, you know, from the city centre pub, from a pub in Soho, from neighbourhood places and countryside pubs.

10:06It's a case-by-case basis, and a lot of pubs are no kids at all, and that's fine, that's up to them a lot of pubs are sort of old kids up until 6 or 7 p.m that entirely makes sense because you know in the day they tend to be a little bit more subdued and come evening more raucous and some are more family friendly I mean there are loads of pubs in London that are more welcoming to kids and that are geared up to that and maybe they're more upmarket or a little bit more modern there are loads of pubs that are more kind of wet-led that are for playing pool or whatever and a bit of darts and so on and that all of this is completely silly to me because it's just down to the business owner and people just love to complain don't they it's just very tedious indeed i don't have kids so it's not a concern of mine i certainly have been in pubs or restaurants where kids have been loud and noisy and annoying and i like that there are some child free zones really just as much as yeah fine some pubs i'm all good towards families and that's how they operate and that's the business model and it's a safer and softer environment for youngsters and then the pub owners will yeah geared up towards that so they offer kid-friendly meals and stuff and make just as much money a different way.

11:16Now you have experience growing up in a pub don't you which gives you more of a unique perspective what was your experience like? Last year this same thing happened another pub said it was going to disallow kids so the same argument was wrought and my dad's pub so his pub was divided into two sections the saloon bar and the public bar which is how most pubs used to be divided kids are allowed in the saloon bar until 6 7 p.m and not in the other side where adults just went to have some booze and play darts whatever just come evening kids weren't allowed in that was pretty pretty standard i thought and more generally can you tell us a bit more about what sort of states pubs are in right now a lot of pubs are geared up towards children and that's great and their business model probably relies in part on families coming in like you know the roast dinners or whatever there are a lot of pubs doing very well indeed and a lot of pubs that aren't and it's true I think that fewer people are drinking and maybe the pub isn't quite the bedrock of so many communities anymore but which is a shame because they're such invaluable assets and a lot of pubs in kind of the center of town Soho and stuff are doing just fine a lot of pubs in more populous areas where a lot of young people go is great and it's more it's more the sort of like satellite town pubs or suburban pubs or neighborhood pubs where they're not doing as well in some senses.

12:32And there's no doubt at all that here's the most inspiring comment for me. The economy is bad. I think, I mean, as insightful as that is, that seems to be ringing true. But obviously, I don't want good pubs to close because they're part of our country, aren't they? The British pub. Anything else to add, Josh? I think it's lovely to see families and kids running about in pubs in some spaces. But just to reiterate, you know, if this pub is decided it doesn't want kids anymore, then that's up to them. The parents can complain all they like, but nothing's going to happen. In this instance, the children are being badly behaved.

13:07Well then, you know, get them out. Either control your children or don't go to the pub. It's quite simple, really.

13:18And that's The Standard. For all the latest news, head to standard.co.uk. If you'd like to get in touch, please do drop us a line at podcasts at standard.co.uk. We'll be back here tomorrow morning. We'll see you then.