The case for preserving London’s nightlife, with Fabric co-owner Cameron Leslie

0:06Cameron Leslie: Late night venues across London are feeling the post-pandemic squeeze, with licensing issues, higher running and staffing costs and rising rents contributing to the city's late night demise. So will Sadiq Khan's London Nightlife Taskforce go far enough to preserve London's late night scene?

0:29Cameron Leslie: Hi and welcome back to the Standard Podcast. I'm Tamara Kormornyk. For all the latest news, head to standard.co.uk. Coming up, the case for preserving London's nightlife.

0:50Cameron Leslie: Let's cast our minds into the future. It's February 2030, it's a Friday, and there are no major clubs left.

1:05Cameron Leslie: This is what the Nighttime Industries Association predicts will happen in the UK if venues continue to close at the current rate. the late night hospitality industry is crying out for support from Sadiq Khan who last year commissioned a nightlife task force report that draws upon suggestions put forward by a diverse set of representatives across London

1:32Cameron Leslie: in today's episode I speak to a stalwart of London's club scene Cameron Leslie the co-founder of the iconic Fabric London who is also the chair of the Independent Nightlife Taskforce. After Fabric's licence was revoked in 2016 following security breaches, Cameron was able to stop the club from closing with the help of the Save Fabric campaign, with 116 ,000 petitioners and over£300 ,000 raised via crowdfunding from dance music fans. Without further ado, here's my conversation with Cameron.

2:17Cameron Leslie: so Cameron thanks so much for joining me on the standard podcast delighted to have you today thank you very much for having me tomorrow so Cameron as chair of the independent nightlife task force could you walk listeners through some of the task force's latest recommendations and how these conclusions have been drawn? Sure.

2:39Tamara Kormornick: So this wasn't about defending clubs and venues. This is about modernising governance for a city that shouldn't and doesn't stop at 6pm. So we looked at licensing, safety, transport, sound management, access to space, workforce conditions economic sustainability and governance without sort of going sort of deep into all 23 recommendations the big shifts which have been accepted the big shifts are about clearer and more consistent licensing smarter partnership led safety approaches fairer handling of noise complaints, better late night transport for workers, stronger protection and access to cultural space and crucially the creation of an independent nightlife commission which would be the evolution both of the task force and of the night styles role.

3:45Tamara Kormornick: So this isn't about deregulation it's about clarity and fairness and London's night time economy which contributes about 21 1 billion a year, supports 1.4 million people working in it. It deserves governance that matches its importance.

4:05Cameron Leslie: Sadiq Khan has said that he's working to create a system that will end the licensing postcode lottery. What exactly does he mean by this? And as the co-founder of Fabric, have you ever been unlucky with the system? And do you consider yourself a winner of the

4:21Tamara Kormornick: postcode lottery at the moment um no i wouldn't characterize it that way at all actually thinking about it because i mean you know fabric even before it opened um my co-founder keith riley spent best part nearly a decade searching across london for a viable space for this venue it really wasn't easy even in islington it took persistence negotiation a lot of rejection before we found something that could actually work and then since opening we've had you know very public challenges we were closed in 2016 um you know we've had to rebuild a degree of trust and systems and relationships and none of that was luck that was about reform and transparency and and hard work so i don't really sort of subscribe that we've somehow won the post-grad lottery and nor do i I think that anybody necessarily wins a postcode lottery.

5:22Tamara Kormornick: I think what it means is that there is inconsistency and that similar venues can face very different expectations in different boroughs. And that's something, that's an issue that the taskforce has been trying to address.

5:39Cameron Leslie: I just wanted to get your thoughts on something that Geoff Barclough, the Cabinet Member for Planning and Economic Development at Westminster City Council has said. He said that licensing is not even close to the top issue that hospitality businesses face. He's saying it will do little to fix the capital's disappearing nightlife. What do you make of these comments?

6:00Tamara Kormornick: Well, look, it's fair to say that licensing isn't the only pressure facing hospitality. I mean, rising costs, rent, staffing, energy utility bills. I mean, they're all major issues. But when we engaged nearly 3 ,000 Londoners, we spoke to operators, venues, people that were trying to get into spaces but were unable to, licensing came up consistently as a structural friction point, particularly in central areas, including Westminster. that operators there and elsewhere told us they experience unpredictability, inconsistent interpretation and conditions that don't always feel proportionate to the risk that they are taking.

6:49Tamara Kormornick: So the problem isn't regulation itself, it's the inconsistency and unpredictability. So I wouldn't describe these new powers in any way as a silver bullet. So, you know, I accept that And they're not going to solve the cost pressures, but they are governance matters. And this is about modernising a framework so it supports responsible businesses while still protecting residents and public safety.

7:18Cameron Leslie: So you talk about this framework. if these um changes that the nightlife task force come up with are implemented what do you think the landscape of london nightlife will look like in say five years because the projections

7:34Tamara Kormornick: as of a year ago were pretty pretty shocking well look i'm i'm cautiously optimistic about it i i feel that you know in five years i think we could see things like more predictable licensing stronger partnership between venues and police better transport alignment protection for grassroots spaces the ability for grassroots spaces to even start if we can arrest the decline and closure of venues that are in place and encourage new ones to actually come into the market if we don't do it the risk isn't going to be dramatic collapse it's just going to be gradual erosion and losing that diversity and emerging talent is something that we just have to overcome so this is an opportunity which is about resilient, mixed-use, inclusive night-time economy.

8:22Tamara Kormornick: And I think the adoption of these recommendations across the board will have a cumulative effect that I believe will be a positive one.

8:35Cameron Leslie: We'll take a quick break. Coming up, I asked Cameron about his feelings towards the prevalence of club nights being held in mixed-use spaces, the pressure that comes with elevated expectations of club goers, and his case for why preserving late night life should be a priority for London.

9:05Cameron Leslie: Welcome back. Let's get back to my chat with Cameron. What are your views on multi-use spaces being used for nightlife events? because Fabric is obviously an enormous club and a lot of these multi-use spaces are quite large. They put on these high production, high value events. They sell tickets that can be quite expensive. Is the competition harming the business? Are you finding that you're having to invest more into club nights in order to kind of keep up with the clubbing Joneses?

9:41Tamara Kormornick: Yes and no. I think we've always stuck by what we think it makes Fabric special in its own right. I mean, what we do now probably differs very little from how we opened in 99. Expectations have changed. Audiences are more intentional now. People don't drift into venues in the way that they might have 15 years ago. They plan ahead. They buy tickets in advance. They curate their nights more carefully. And that shift has changed quite a lot of things. So production values are definitely higher. Sound systems, lighting, stage design, lineups, all of that requires serious investment, whether you are a pop up or a fixed venue.

10:29Tamara Kormornick: Audiences expect quality. rightly so they're paying more they're choosing more carefully they want a memorable experience but at the same time margins are tighter costs energy staffing I was touching on insurance compliance these have all risen dramatically so you're investing more while operating in a tougher financial environment and you know if I look at a venue like Fabric which opened in 1999 the landscape for venues has become much more structured in that time stronger compliance systems more formalized welfare and safeguarding processes working closer with police and authorities more sophisticated ticketing and data analysis more deliberate programming as a consequence so spontaneity hasn't sort of disappeared but it sits on top of a far more say a disciplined operational model and I'd say the sort of biggest challenge over perhaps the last decade is that nightlife has become a lot more accountable and transparent you can't run on instinct alone anymore which was certainly something that I feel like we we did a lot of at the beginning you need governance data structure and a really really clear identity and I don't think that makes it less creative it just makes it more sustainable.

11:58Cameron Leslie: I feel like back in the day it was just easier to put on a night you know you can have an idea get the guesses together and you know just just just make it happen and you could make some serious money so so quickly um so it seems now that it's kind of leveled out I think there's there's a lot of truth in that um

12:18Tamara Kormornick: I don't know if making serious money but um but I but I think that ability to do things quickly and and spontaneously like that yes I think that has has definitely changed and and you know one of our big recommendations in the task force was access to space and for young entrants to the market being able to find somewhere that they were able to get licensed get planning application get licensed even if it was just meanwhile use if it was for a year or a couple of years to give them a footing to be able to start something even on a micro level that tests out builds a you know a following builds something that may lead to something bigger whether that's on the same site or whether it's somewhere else but it just gives a lower risk opportunity for somebody to enter the market that certainly in the last decade has proved to be very very difficult and is one of reasons why we struggled to have new entrants coming into the market whereas perhaps historically we had a lot more so just trying to ease up those barriers to entry could be transformative.

13:37Cameron Leslie: And just to wrap up our conversation for people who might not see saving clubs as a priority for London among so many other issues that the city is facing at the moment what would you say are the main benefits of preserving London's nightlife scene?

13:55Tamara Kormornick: Well I'm a staunch advocate and supporter so I'm going to be carrying the flag very highly and I'd say look nightlife isn't just about clubs it's about an ecosystem that feeds the rest of the city's cultural life. You know London's global reputation in music didn't emerge from boardrooms it emerged from basements and warehouses and late night rooms you know we've had genres like jungle uk garage grind dubstep all of these were incubated in clubs long before they became international exports and the same is true of fashion designers stylists creatives they test ideas in nightlife spaces Trends go from dance floors to runways, visual aesthetics, subcultures, identities.

14:50Tamara Kormornick: They're shaped at night and then absorbed into mainstream culture. So nightlife is where these ideas collide, whether that's across race, class, age, sexuality, disciplines. DJs connect with filmmakers, artists meet coders, you know, promoters collaborate with fashion labels. You know, there's cross-pollination going on and that cross-pollination fuels innovation, which goes far beyond the four walls of a club. And then there's the economic infrastructure. You know, the nighttime economy supports 1.4 million people, as I said before, workers that contribute 21 billion a year annually. It drives tourism.

15:37Tamara Kormornick: It sustains hospitality, supply chains. It activates streets and keeps areas lively and actually busy nighttime areas are far safer than quiet streets. If you remove nightlife, you don't just lose parties, you lose a testing ground for culture, a pipeline for talent. It's a social glue that holds creative communities together. And a global city that, believe me, doesn't stop at 11pm, that's not a global city. Preserving nightlife is not some indulgence. it's a long-term investment in the cultural engine that keeps a place like London distinctive

16:22Cameron Leslie: well thank you so much Cameron for joining me on the standard podcast it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you thanks a lot tomorrow thanks for having me and that's the standard for all the latest news head to standard.co.uk if you're new here hit follow and give us a rating. If you'd like to get in touch, email us at podcasts at standard.co.uk. We'll be back here tomorrow morning. See you then.