#217 - Creative Briefs 101 with Janice Greenwald and Kat Karpati

23:31But whatever your launch strategy is, let's hope that your product is designed to do well in those shelves. And I did exactly what you're talking about, Janice, where when we got designs, I printed them on my inkjet printer or whatever and wrapped it around a package of a competitor because we didn't have our own products yet and then went to a store and was just putting it on the shelf and looking at it. And even that, I feel like, Janice, you said you're not so creative i'm not so creative like you're hopefully you're more creative than i am it's so hard for me to envision something that i'm just that someone's describing or i just like i need to see it and to actually know that's why i don't tell the creatives what to do i mean i'm like really desperate if i'm telling a creative on a design i'm in a desperate situation i'm just one more thing on the shelf set like because i see this all the time when an agency presents back and they put like all six of your SKUs and they have equal amount of facings as every other competitor.

24:25Like, let's be a little bit honest. Like, sure, like sure, the agency might do that for you. But on the side, maybe you make your own shelf set that's a little more realistic. It might even be a photo of an actual shelf set where there's 65 facings of Doritos and then you're going to have like just two of your SKUs are probably going to get in. And well, what's that going to look like? Do you need it to be a brand block? Do you need it? Do you want different colors? Like that's right now, it's very hot right now to have different colors, right? But like you're not necessarily going to get your full rainbow.

24:54So you have to consider all of those things and consider that you're going to get these top two skews in. Do those two skews look good in the context of the whole shelf? Are they going to pop? So those are all just like very important things. It actually photos of the shelf set. I didn't put it in my brief. I don't always put it in my brief, but it should be in my briefing document. It's pretty interesting also. I mean, it seems like there are trends of these things like that flow over time about movement towards more minimalist kinds of packaging in order to stand out, or there's lots of color, or maybe go against the grain for a while, depending on what you're trying to convey about your product and what the set is looking like and what's in the zeitgeist consumers' minds, what's going on.

25:33But I've heard interesting theories about the use of color on packaging. And yeah, I am not the person who knows the most about it. Honestly, I'm lucky if I can even tell you if I like something or don't. Just like, okay, yeah, let's go with that. But, you know, it's been explained to me before that it actually is hard for a brand to own over a certain number of colors. And I don't know if it's true or not, but people have said it's very expensive if you're trying to have, for example, really different colors on each of your SKUs. Because that's a hard thing to then teach consumers to associate all of those things with your brand for them to be able to, you know, then look across all of them.

26:08and be like, yes, that is all part of this one brand that I like. Even if you wish for them to know all the things that you know about the brand and delineate them the way that you do in your mind, it can be tricky, right? I don't know. Kat, do you have any view on that about how far you can go with different SKUs? And I thought of it just because Janice is saying how the agency is going to be like, yes, look at this. And if you have three facings for all of your 10 SKUs, it's going to look like this. Yeah, that's not going to happen. You might have one facing on two of your skews there. So what do you think, Kat?

26:36Yeah, I think it's always a question in our heads, right? Okay, usually the color strategy has to do with flavor and how much we want to lean into flavor distinction, especially when we're talking about food, right? But even if we're doing that and doing a packaging that has drastically different colors, you need to figure out how to create that brand block. So going back to Nature's Bakery, in that crowded bar set, right, everyone had a color Nature's Valley-owned green, kind, and black. Us having a rainbow of colors was differentiating, but we had a really strong masthead, right? So started to create some graphic devices that bring consistency across the packs becomes really important.

27:12Crave is another great example. Crave Jerky, right? It has a lot of bright colors involved in it, but it has a very strong central grounding element that then provides it some element of unity. And so I think if you're going to go a color strategy where you are leaning into owning flavor, you just need to make sure that you have another design element on pack that really grounds that and unifies the portfolio. And then I think we also often lean into having a master brand color when we do something that's so vibrant, right? And so it's like when we're thinking off pack, how does that look, right?

27:46Because you're not always leaning into flavor. So how do we lean into one of those individual colors so that it elevates to a master brand level? Okay, perfect. So I want to get into just some of the specifics of the actual creative brief. So I know one of the key elements, for example, is a positioning statement. Can you take me through, Janice, let's start with you on just, you know, what's a good one? What's a bad one? Like, how do you actually make sure it's going to be reasonable, interpreted well by the agency? How do you really come up with something like that? There's a methodology for positioning.

28:19So believe it or not, there is like a formula for it that people spend a lot of money and some people spend tens of thousands of dollars just to work on their positioning statement. But it's basically a few lines that explains what the brand is, like who the brand is for, why it matters, like its place in the category at the unique point of difference, as well as the functional and emotional benefits. And there's a literal formula for it. And I have an example in my notes if you want me to let's do it yeah maybe you could give us uh you could read out a good example of that so we can hear what it's like i don't want to say it's like the best positioning statement ever but i will give an example that i have permission from a client to share which is el nacho so it's four families who want bold flavor better ingredients and a snack that brings joy to everyone at the table el nacho is the chef crafted snack brand that combines elevated, rebellious flavors with clean ingredients and a luchador spirit to deliver fun, flavor, and connection in every bite.

29:25Unlike conventional snack brands that play it safe with bland flavors or compromise on quality, El Nacho is proudly bold and built to stand out with flavor that punches a story that sticks and a story that sticks. Okay. So, and I love El Nacho, which you know, if anyone hasn't had it, you should have it. it's so good it's like a better for you version of doritos but it tastes real you know you can actually by actual chefs yes like the the corn tastes like corn but it also has all of that amazing flavor that i mean i do like doritos too but these are better corn don't be knows this but we use white corn yeah so el nacho pitch there it's been it's fantastic it's a truly incredible product.

30:11Now, that's a great positioning statement. I guess just I have one bone to pick with it, which is you started by saying it's for families. And I'm on my own here and I want it and I want it to be marketed to me because I love it so much. But that's interesting to hear that. I mean, OK, yeah, so they're marking it, I guess, sort of a family angle, which I don't know how that actually eventually then translated into the packaging, which is cool, too. But can you tell me a little bit more about that? We backed into it a little bit because the The packaging was our, the theme of the packaging was already designed by our amazing creative director, Ryan, before like we kind of went back and worked through some of the positioning elements to sort of take the brand to the next level.

30:50But for that brand, like, again, like it could be for anybody, you know, any, and we want it to be for anybody, but we also know that we want it. We wanted the kids to really resonate with the product because like the luchador characters and whatnot, like a lot of kids really love, like this isn't a product like meant for wrestlers. I mean, Of course. We have some mega wrestler fans out there. We totally do. But we knew we wanted it to be for like both the parents and the kids. I gotcha. It's a good time. Yeah. I mean, if you think about who's eating Doritos, that makes more sense to me now. Although now that there is a better for you version of it, then maybe that will expand to people like me who probably feel like, oh, I can't be seen to be eating Doritos.

31:31But there's always going to be the Halo target too. Like I'm working with a brand right now who gave me like six targets and I was like, I get it. I get it. But we have to pick one that we want to, it's not just what you're designing for, it's what you're innovating for. Like, what does your future look like for everything that you're doing? When you have one target in mind, it's a little bit easier to do that than if you're trying to do, like, be something for everybody. It's funny. And I also, it just kind of makes me wonder when people have a product like that, like a, you know, big bag of chips or an individual size bag of chips.

32:00What, yeah, what's the consumption occasion for them? For me, it feels like a personal thing. Like I'm getting that bag of chips and I'm probably eating it by myself. There are occasions where you would share it with people, especially if it's El Nacho and you want everyone to try it. But in a lot of instances, I'm just like having lunch, sitting somewhere, having that or just like having a snack in front of the TV, something like that. So it just kind of makes me interested to hear that part. And it also ties into another question that I have, which is how do you determine who the target consumer is?

32:27Right. Because like, OK, it can often it shouldn't be everyone. No, it's for everybody. Like that's not you know, that's always a red flag. But how do you know when you're picking a target consumer, then? Is it too broad? Is it too narrow? Like, you don't want people to think that you don't have much of an addressable market. But, you know, you can't be for everyone. Yeah, I mean, I think your addressable market is different than your target consumer because there is going to be a halo. So I wouldn't be too concerned there. I mean, a lot of it, I think, is just like in the early days talking to people and seeing like who this is resonating with and who do you like think you want to design this product for.

33:03is not necessarily who's actually like let's say you've already launched just not necessarily even who's currently consuming it it's who do you want to be consuming it who's your aspirational consumer like sometimes you're going to have your consumer base is not actually aligned with how you develop the brand to be because it's aspirational so like it might be like young gen z but really like millennial moms or whatever are the ones consuming it but they're still like enjoying the instagram of like you know they're wishing that they were that in that phase of their life or whatever. So it, I mean, it's really hard, but I mean, honing in is very important into both like demographics, psychographics, like every single thing about that consumer.

33:41I always write like a persona, like try to really understand like, who is this person and what is her mindset? What other brands resonate with her? So that like, you can kind of picture like what's in her basket, but also like, what does her life look like? Is she listening to NPR or is she listening to Joe Rogan? Like these things are going to be very different. So. Janet, just to build on that, like the The psychographic piece, I think, is so important, right? Because brands tend to get so hung up on, okay, who are we for from an age and demographic standpoint? But the psychographic piece is like what ends up inspiring something unique in the packaging.

34:12So even with the El Nacho example that you just gave, right? You said for families, but it's that who want bold flavor. So it's like those bold flavor seekers that then start to give us something that we can like lean into creatively. So that becomes like a little bit more of a hook. So it's not just like the rational piece of it, but it's much more the emotional piece. And I mean, there are data based ways to try to figure this out, too, because, yeah, you're not going to know in most instances, unless you're like, no, I am a runner and I built this product to fit into my life. And this product is for runners who don't get access to that.

34:45Like, OK, you might have a pretty tight story there. But in a lot of instances, you know, you might just be targeting a particular category and you can start and you can look at data about who actually purchases that category. Right. It's out there. You can find some free sources that's on places like Statista or just Google searches and understand like who buys this, what's the purchase frequency, like, you know, household size, like you can get some of that stuff out there. One thing that I did in the past then was even to run a white label kind of survey just to understand, OK, I know who buys this category.

35:17Great. I can ask a bunch of questions on an online survey about like, why do you buy it? What are the things you care the most about? and you actually learn some pretty interesting things even. Like I just remember when I was looking at the energy category, even understanding like why people buy something like Red Bull, a lot of them don't know it has caffeine, which is so interesting. They're just like, you know, like energy, like where does the energy come from? Like sugar? I don't really know. It's just stuff that you wouldn't really put together. So I like doing that. The white label survey then I would, like we didn't have the packaging, obviously.

35:48This was to create the packaging and understand it. We would just run kind of a like blank can almost, but just put some of the general idea and then understand who says that they would purchase that. Like, okay, how are they different? And why would they buy this? And what do they feel like is missing? And who's most likely to? That was pretty helpful for me. But then also just really talking to people and doing interviews with people that I know are heavy consumers of the products and like, what do they like? And what do they think about the different products? And then being in the store and just looking at people, if they pick something up, like, hey, why'd you buy that?

36:19you know it's a little a little creepy but hopefully you can do it in a way that's not too creepy but just like seeing people interact with the set seeing how much they purchase it what time of day are they purchasing it who is the person that purchases it is it for them is it for family what do you think janice i know you stalked some shoppers well i've definitely done shopper intercepts before sure thing no i mean i agree with all that i think the hardest part with like quantitative surveys which i love to do is finding like you have to ask the questions to the right people and then so to your point like who are those right people and that's the hardest part because if you ask a bunch of questions about like to your existing d2c audience of 100 people or something like that like you're just talking to yourself but if you're looking for a broader audience and doing it to gen pop to try to learn like who are those people like demographically and then psychographically like there are a lot of research that you could do there like statements that people agree with like i you know look for organic foods or whatever so there's a lot of different ways to get to like more of a quantitative look at it but a lot of it is, I think in these early days, is just like having talked to a lot of people and being like, there is a white space in the market for a product like this for this person.

37:25Yeah, I think that's totally right. I wonder, Kat, when you're getting these briefs sent to you, how much data do you actually usually see in there? Is it all intuitive? Are there people who are just dumping data your way? It's a mix of both. It just honestly depends on like client size and sort of like client marketing background. Sometimes it's simply gut and reading Amazon reviews or reviews online of like, okay, who's buying it? What seems to be working? What's going on with the competitors? And who's buying those? What's not working there? That sometimes is the amount of information we get.

37:57Other times it's like bigger companies that have spent the money to do bigger studies and have really clear ideas of who primary target is versus secondary target and done the whole. I mean, we're not getting into that here, but it's like literally which consumer segment is purchasing for which day part. I mean, there's a lot you can do that we obviously are not diving into here, but that quite literally could cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's why I kind of said, it's a little bit of gut in the beginning. So yeah, there are a lot of ways you could spend money as an early brand.

38:30I'd say some of them wise, some of them not wise. At some point, you just need to get the product out of the market because you're going to learn things along the way. And yeah, all those big brands with their big money, they miss an awful lot of the time, especially when they're trying to do something innovative. I feel like sometimes those things you can kind of get to innovation by committee at a big brand, which is a great way to kill something that could be cool. Right. So yeah, I really appreciate a data driven approach when you can muster it, at least like looking at what's out there, trying to understand it.

38:59But yes, you will not always be successful as we know. Design by committee is also a thing that happens a lot among the clients. And I really just urge people to try to avoid going back to your agency with this is the answer that we want. Again, I'm going to say this again. Go back and tell them the problem that you are seeing and really try to avoid telling them how to fix it. I mean, if you have like a true belief, share it, sure. But like let them try to show you how they might approach it. And so you mentioned guardrails earlier, and I think this is a good one to ask you about, Kat, also, because you may come in and say, okay, we're going to have guardrails.

39:37All right, it has to do this, or we actually have the logo already, and it must include this logo, and that's kind of the premise for it. But I've also worked with great agencies that ignored that, and then, like I was mentioning before, gave us something that was so much better. We're like, well, I guess that's not really a guardrail after all, or it shouldn't have been. And I bet when you have that whole committee doing things, you get a lot of guardrails that a smart agency is going to know what really is a guardrail versus where they should push back a little bit. Kat, what do you think? Yeah, for sure.

40:04I think that's a great, great point. What we usually like to have clients answer is on a scale of 1 to 10, how far are we changing, right? Like 1 is like a tiny zhuzh and like 10 obviously being like a whole new brand. And that starts to give us like a sense of like our appetite for change, which also helps versus telling us exactly what needs to change. And then we often do for established brands an equity audit, which we then evaluate the positioning because usually there's been a positioning change from like the last time they've done a packaging and refresh. Evaluate the positioning against their current equities and figure out which ones are actually delivering on it.

40:37And maybe the logo works, but maybe it can be evolved. And so that is a better way for an agency and sort of a client to tackle equities versus just mandating, OK, this has to stay the same. All right. OK, another one for you, Janice. you got to put in what the competitive set is, right? And I think like, I don't know, probably every early brand is, I'm going to take all the big guys, you know, let me go and here's my competition is Unilever, Kellogg's or whoever. But then like, there are also early brands you might think are interesting and like, well, I'll put that in there. But I don't know, what's their distribution even?

41:06How do you really pick an effective competitive set to list that into your creative brief? I put everybody in because I think that there's, I said this on the podcast, but I feel like there's a dark horse, like always somebody that you don't realize who's coming up right behind you. But at the end of the day, when you're looking at the shelf set and you're like deciding, I would probably choose, is it going to go back to your channel strategy? Like what's the key couple of retailers and what does that shelf look like? So if it's Whole Foods or if it's Kroger, it's gonna be pretty different, right?

41:34So I would make sure that those are the brands that you're probably focusing on the most ultimately. Okay, cool. So next one, maybe Kat, this is a good one for you. As a brand, especially once you get the product developed and you got the formulation and you're like, Look, these 20 things are true about our product. And I want everyone to know all of them because it is gut healthy and also makes you good at sports and also is non-GMO and gluten free. And also, oh, well, like we should tell the vegans that it's vegan. And also, you know, the like NASCAR like car approach where you see all the logos on there.

42:06And that's the thing you want to avoid, right? Because it's very hard for you to process that much information, especially, you know, from five feet or whatever. So how do you work with PeopleCat on kind of like prioritizing the messaging that they really need to get across? Yeah, we see that often. And one of the things we always say is, you know, three claims. Consumers have appetite and understanding of like three things front of pack. And the front of pack is really meant to be a beacon that's going to like pull you in. And so it doesn't have to do everything. You just really want the consumer to like see you and then ideally pick you up.

42:37And oftentimes clients forget that there's like a whole entire rest of a pack, right, that you can use to help communicate some of the other key points that is really important to telegram. So we often, you know, especially with smaller clients, look at the big guys. Okay, what are the big guys saying on shelf, right? What are the points of parity that we need to make sure that we're communicating? Maybe this whole category does need to have a protein claim, right? Probably these days. And then maybe low sugar is the other one, but maybe there's something else that makes us different. And we just try to focus in on like, what are those three things to usually being points of parity to make sure we're at least being competitive on shelf.

43:13And then one being a differentiator that hopefully gets enough attention to get people to pick it up and look at the rest of it. I love that. And I feel like especially without that prioritization, I've seen a lot of examples of products where a brand will show me their packaging and I look at and they're like, and look at this and look at this. And I'm like, okay. I mean, one question I have is what is this? I look at this product. I don't know what it is. And I'm not even sure if I saw it in the context of a shelf if I would know what it is. Like I need to have some kind of understanding and expectation of the product to take a chance on it, right?

43:43Because snacks are delicious, drinks are delicious. You know, you don't going to into a store expecting to buy a bunch and drink a bunch at the same time, like you're placing a bet that can be risky for, you know, your, your stomach that day. So how do you make sure you really in the end communicate or like, you know, how do you prioritize that? Just like a clear understanding versus all of the fancy stuff they want to do. Yeah. Usually in our minds, it's most cases, Costco possibly aside, right? It's brand first so that people understand like what your brand is and then like, what are you? And those are the two main things that we need to communicate.

44:13Then the rest of those things become reasons to believe whatever it is that we're trying to say what we are. I just want to add to that because I've worked in a lot of new categories. So when I was working at Rhythm Superfoods, we were like early to market or first to market with kale chips. And we were pretty focused on like making sure people knew that it was kale chips because kale chips were sort of coming up and kale was really popular at the time. And so we actually, in this thing that you put into your brief, said that we wanted it to be 50-50 hierarchy between category and brand and then flavor coming below that.

44:44So for us, it was like pulling the category out since we were an unknown entity as a brand. Like people weren't going to stop for rhythm, but they might stop for kale chips. So that was important to us as well. Okay, cool. Just to build on that, We usually see that as like some sort of completely new to the world type of product, right? It leans in on what the product is first. Batchen's Japanese barbecue sauce, right? Like we're Japanese barbecue sauce. And then eventually as people get more familiar with it, it's like, okay, let's make sure we establish ourselves as the Japanese barbecue sauce and make sure Batchen's is really clear.

45:17Yeah, exactly. Because then I've seen other brands come in places like that and they're like, no one knows the name of that company. We can do another Japanese barbecue sauce. thank you very much for all of the awareness of the category of products. Now I'll come in with mine. So it is good to maybe even switch that balance over time. In some instances, I've seen brands doing that lately. Okay, so just a couple more, let's say more tactical questions here on the brief now. So the like scope of it or exactly what you're asking the deliverables to be. I mean, Janice, what are you looking for from people like, hey, you know, because there's obviously there's logo, then there's full pack, then there's like, oh, but also how it's going to show up on the outer packaging and all this other stuff?

45:56What are you typically trying to scope the brief for? I mean, it totally depends, excuse me, on what the client needs. But let's say it's a brand refresh. I'm going to figure out like what SKUs. Are we having the agency design all of the SKUs or do you want them to do the lead SKUs and then put the rest of it to a freelancer? So how many SKUs are we starting from scratch with a new logo, all of those things. So are we looking for a full brand refresh? You have to explain all that up front, right? But then it's down to like what SKUs, do you need packaging mechanicals, do you need renderings, do you need a case designed?

46:26I mean, it's very like specific in terms of what you want to ask for so that it's clear. Like, do you need your renderings front end backup pack? Do you need multiple angles? Like you just want to make sure that whatever you're putting in is very crystal clear. Also like form factor, like are there limitations with the form factor in terms of like if you have any information about your printer so that you can explain what the type of printing is going to be as well. And those are questions that they'll ask you later on. The agency will always ask you and hopefully maybe ask you early on. But for example, like if you're working in beverage, are you printing on the can or are you printing on a sleeve?

47:01Like these things are going to be very different in terms of how the agency might approach it. When I worked on beverage, I only wanted to work and I was working on a rebrand. Like one of my mandatories with selecting an agency was an agency that had printed on cans before because I was like just not I was new to it and I wasn't confident in like what the colors were going to be and how that was all going to work out and I wanted to make sure the agency had a really good like grasp of that yeah that's important I've been hit with the business end of that one before we're just like yeah somebody who I think didn't have as much experience gave us a recommendation and something looked horrible off and that's why you want to go to a packaging agency too and not just a graphic designer it was a graphic designer if they've had a lot of experience in packaging, that's fine.

47:42But I mean, people who really understand like the details of packaging and how it's going to show up on different substrates and all of those things. Yeah, okay. Okay, another one here. As in, you know, there's this quote unquote RFP process, right? And if you're one of these big companies, you're probably very comfortable doing that. Like, okay, we're going to revamp this brand. Here's our creative brief. And I'm going to send this out to the top 10 design firms out there. And you guys are all competing for our business. So, you know, you better come correct. As an early brand, I would feel like I can't do that at all.

48:12We'd be super lucky for one great agency to want to work with us. So what do you think is really fair, appropriate for, let's say, an emerging brand to how they can actually run that process? Like, can you send, is it, can you confidently do it? Like, look, here's what we need. Give us your best and give us some ideas. How much can you even expect to get from them? Like, obviously, they can't just give you a fully baked design and branding for that RFP, but they can give you some ideas. Can you guys tell me a little bit about how this process starts, maybe, Janice, and then, Kat, how you guys typically respond to stuff like that and what you feel like is fair?

48:46I want to address the taking you seriously part. So when I do, I don't know if other people do it this way, but when I do my RFP, I'm including the brief. So that is my RFP, kind of, and that's so that the agency takes me seriously because I want to show them, like, I'm not messing around. Like we are a brand, if we're going to go and spend like agency level money, like 50 to$300 ,000, then I want to make sure that they know that this is serious and we're taking the process seriously and we're not wasting their time. So that is the reason that I spend all this time up front. So that the agency will be interested in our brand and our product because an agency like Flock doesn't have to say yes to everybody because they have plenty of work.

49:25And so, I mean, some of the agencies, like I have agencies where I have to like stalk the founder and be like, hey, did you see my note? Like, because they're just busy. And so that's the first part I wanted to address. In terms of what you can expect, when you work at a big company like a Unilever or something, like people pitch you full ideas. I don't know about packaging per se, but like in creative, like they literally that's their job is to pitch you full ideas. That is not what you're going to get as a startup. So what I look for is like some level of interest. So when they come back to me, first of all, like expressing interest in working with us.

50:00And then when they do the proposal, I put like a time frame, like please submit the proposal within this time. Most agencies will ask for a meeting, which is a good sign. It means that they're actually interested in learning more. I hope that they've read my brief so that they're asking questions relevant to the brief and not just rehashing all the things I already put into the brief, which was very thorough. And then they'll probably send back a deck with their capabilities, relevant examples. And then I think that's where you start to see like maybe people who are a little more interested if they start giving a little bit more like thought about your current brand.

50:33But I wouldn't expect like ideas or anything like that out of the gate. OK, Kat, what does it feel like when that stuff comes to you and how willing are you to submit just some information, fully baked ideas? How do you think about it? Yeah. So we love RFPs and we love having conversations. Pretty much every single time an RFP comes in, I ask for a phone call so we can have a conversation with the client about what is actually going on because there's so much that you can get that doesn't come across on that piece of paper. Plus, I think part of the success of brands that we've worked on is the relationship piece, right?

51:08And so there are those intangible factors of like, okay, how well can you guys communicate with each other? How well do you get along? Do you guys get each other's vibe? Like that's a big important piece for us as well when we're evaluating whether or not we want to participate in an RFP. And then in terms of like what we actually deliver, we'll always deliver a capes and an approach to how we will solve the problem for a client. We don't do spec work. We don't think that evaluating an agency based on work that they've turned around in like a two-week process is ever going to get you the best results.

51:38The best way to evaluate an agency is past work that they've done where they've had that back and forth, that relationship and that process with a client. And so we often do, you know, you made us think. And it's like considerations that we've seen by evaluating the category or things that get us excited about the brand. So we'll start to give some thought into like where we could go and just to show some excitement and some of the behind the scenes, what's actually going on. But we almost never present actual design work in an RFP process. So then the brand's going to be looking at, okay, how do they think about our brand?

52:12Because you probably get some of that info. What's the stuff that they've delivered before? And do I really agree with the approach that they're talking about? Does it feel like they get us and me and they'd be excited to work on this with us and vice versa? I think that's exactly it. Yeah. And Janice, is that how you would recommend a brand evaluates the responses to RFPs? A lot of it is chemistry. A lot of it is going to be chemistry. I have like a rubric that I use or I try to use to, again, this goes back to the alignment part of like, okay, guys, like that was amazing chemistry, but maybe the team hasn't solved this problem for other brands before.

52:52And this agency, like we liked the people, you know, but they've solved this problem like 10 times, you know? And so that's why having some sort of evaluation kind of rubric is helpful, but certainly like agency, like founder fit, like the chemistry is number one. I'll often it depends what you're looking for but I'll often be looking for how strategic the agency is like are they really understanding the problem we're trying to solve might ask for client references or I might do my own like back channeling that's how I got to cat in the first place was through some that I've actually never worked with cat true story but we've we've tried a few times it hasn't worked out but certainly like talking to other people who have worked with the agencies is great maybe relevant category experience would be great and I love seeing a little passion for the project.

53:35But you know what? Sometimes these agencies are really busy and I'm not going to completely like ding them if they don't give me anything custom in the RFP, if it's literally just the capabilities, but I really want to work with them. And I felt the chemistry on the call. Like I might still say, yes, that's why I try to write all these things. And then of course you're looking at the price and value and the project timeline and things like that. Cause, but it's, it's kind of a combination of everything. So just maybe last question as we wrap up here, Janice, when you think, when you're talking to brands and they're like, yeah, okay, they're working with you and we're great.

54:04We want to get a great agency on this. There are different tiers of agencies and budgets that may be available to you. Maybe you are a repeat founder, you raise a ton of money, come in, you got a hundred K ready to spend on branding. You're going to get an epic design, epic agency. There are others who are like, they're really proud to be able to afford you Janice. And they don't necessarily have that kind of budget now for the agency. They're trying to be scrappy. How do you think about the different options that they can consider at different levels and what is characteristic about those agencies at those levels?

54:34That's a hard question. I mean, in my, I've definitely seen brands be really successful with freelancers. I know a couple of brands where a co-founder is a designer and they've done beautiful work. And one of them even asked me to look at their packaging and they're like, do we need an agency? And I was like, this work is really, really good. And I looked at it on the shelf and I was like, y 'all, y 'all crushed it, you know? And so it's not to say you can't do it that way. I don't have like personally, like necessarily, like I find agencies just to have a broader like set of thinking. You're going to have more than one designer working on the project.

55:08You're going to have a strategist. Like you, it's a whole team of people thinking about your brand as opposed to just kind of one person who could get stuck in their own work. So I prefer going the agency route if my client can afford it. But one thing I have done is I've sort of like pieced together my own agency so this is like a scrappy way is I've hired like one time I hired three freelancers and I gave them all the exact same project and I told them all what I was going to do I was very transparent throughout it and they all like had a set budget to come up with just like the initial design concept and then we chose one freelancer off of that and then we actually chose a different freelancer to finish the mechanicals because he was cheaper like that's how that's how like detailed I was and I was very like open throughout like I'm going to use you to do the to flesh out the design more but i'm gonna go back to this other guy to finish it off because he's a lot cheaper than you so like i really had to piece it together that way but i don't i'm not as proud of that work as i am as as some of the work that i've done with like really good agencies i got you do what you gotta do the end of the day okay cool i'm gonna wrap us up here but i really want to thank both of you and as we end here do you mind each just sharing ways that people can kind of follow along with you or get in touch.

56:20Janice, do you want to go first? Sure. You can find me on LinkedIn, Janice Greenwalds or my website, janicegreenwalds.com. I'm pretty responsive if you ever want to email me or anything. All right, Kat. Pretty much the same. So Kat Kerpady on LinkedIn, easy to find. You can also find me through flockcreative.com and the contact information is there. I'm very happy to answer any questions and help emerging brands out. All right. Well, thank you for this brief overview of Creative Briefs. It's been quite lovely and informative, and I hope everybody feels really prepared to go in and start off with your freelancer or agency on the right foot with the right amount of info, and then you'll get the best result ever for sure.

56:59All right. Thank you, everybody. Thank you for having us. Thank you. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to our podcast. If you loved it, I would so appreciate it if you could leave us a review. You could do it right now. If you're an Apple podcast, you can scroll to the bottom of our Startup CPG podcast page and click on write a review. Leave your company name in there. I will try to read it out. If you're in Spotify, you can click on about and then the star rating icon. If you are a service provider that would like to appear on the Startup CPG podcast, you can email us at partnerships at startupcpg.com.

57:36Lastly, if you found yourself grooving along to the music, it is my band. You can visit our website and listen to more. It is superfantastics.com. Thank you, everybody. See you next time.