#220 - Brain Health Ingredients 101 w/ Cognizin, Radicle Science, and Karma Water

25:17I resonate with them, not because of Chris Bumstead, but just because I love the fact that they have fun flavors. and it's like a substitute for Coke and Sprite and things like that. So I think that's what's really important is not just the individual ingredient and brand, but what the overall product is saying and how they're marketing it to other people. And I think Kelly with Karma does a really good job with that too. So anything and everything that we can say individually is good, but ultimately it's that final finish good, like what they're saying. We'll be right back. You know, it is so hard to raise money these days or really even know what VCs actually invest in early stage brands.

25:59But good news, we are bringing all those early stage investors together. I am so pleased to announce Startup CPG's founders and funders, powered by our friends at DOS. It's happening December 11th in New York City, and it will be totally unforgettable. We'll have the top 50 early stage VCs, meaning the ones really writing checks for pre-seed and seed stage brands. And we're pulling them together with the top 100 brands of the year. They're going to be amazing panels, one-on-one matchmaking, and tons of networking opportunities. If you know anything about us, you know what a ridiculous opportunity this is going to be.

26:32So I really recommend getting your application in early. The website to submit is in the show notes. It's fandf.startupcpg.com. Good luck.

26:47Okay, so that makes a lot of sense. And what about the dose levels? I mean, is that something consumers understand? I mean, I can say for creatine, that is probably the only product that I actually know how much experts recommend. And I just happen to know that even that number though is different in the US versus Canada, which a brand explained to me, like, I think it's five milligrams or something in the U.S. and three in Canada. And it's one of those things where having more than that doesn't really help you. Like you don't want more. Like that's just the amount. If you want to take it, that's the amount to take.

27:20Whereas there are other ingredients out there, I think, where like, hey, you want like more caffeine, it will do more things to you, you know, a higher level of it. So for something like Cognizant, is it a standard dose that everybody would understand or it is more scalable or malleable? What do you think? Yeah, it's definitely where learning is more scalable. If you're looking at mechanistic actions, like just working on phospholipids or working on acetylcholine levels, you can do that as low as like, say, 75 milligrams a day. But what we do see is when we do these outcome studies, they're around 250 milligrams a day.

27:53And so we tend to base our claims on that dose. But what we're seeing is when we actually up it to 500 milligrams, we're seeing differentiation in the benefits. So focus and attention is 250, but like mental energy or the motor function speed, reaction time, those are more 500. So it's like as we start to increase the dose, we're seeing changes in the brain chemistry and seeing those outcomes reflected in a clinical research stance. And there are studies at a thousand milligrams that are showing even more benefits. So we do have a grass at 2000 milligrams, but it is like such a really safe ingredient that you can even go above that.

28:32but we do stick to our grass rolling. So yeah, it is a sliding scale, you know, and we kind of help our brands with that too, by saying, what is it you want to say? And we'll give you the recommended clinical dose that's appropriate. And I could just kind of wonder, cause okay, caffeine, honestly, for me, it's not that I necessarily feel it right away. Like I have coffee every morning. I love it so much, but I don't know if I like necessarily feel that in a way where I'm like, okay, I just had the caffeine and now my brain feels differently than it did before. Like I have my whole morning ritual.

29:04I feel good when I start working, but it'd be hard for me to like point to something like that. I feel like maybe because I just have had so much caffeine in my life, I don't know, or I'm a bigger guy, maybe I'm more immune to it. Do you feel like the dosage levels for different people would be pretty different or is it more consistent? Yeah. So first of all, with the caffeine, you may not be, there's certain genetic dispositions for people that are like fast metabolizers for caffeine versus slow metabolizers. So you might be one of those people, but for Cognizant, just, just going out there. That's good to know.

29:35I thought you were going to say you're just so high energy. That'd be hard for you to use a secondary source for that. I feel it. Like I'm ready to go. It's depending on how fast they drink it too. And of course, how many milligrams are there? But with Cognizant, that's such an interesting thing that you said, because that going back to what Caitlin said about knowing who you're testing, knowing how they're going to respond to the ingredient. It's all about learning. So we do have an adolescent study. So this is that younger demographic that we're not used to testing 13 to 18 year old males. If you look at a 13 year old male versus an 18 year old male, they're going to be very different in just everything.

30:12Physiologically, you know, when you're talking about puberty, how much muscle one has, and they have their height growth, like spurts. So dosing wasn't really on the radar during time of study design and just went with 250 arm and a 500 milligram arm. And then afterwards, when they started unraveling the data, they're like, huh, there's kind of a dose response going on here. So we started to do like different calculations and formulas to see, oh, certain weight response differently. That was a pediatric population, probably should have dosed it for pediatric population. You live in your learn, right?

30:49Like, so now we know if we ever go back to that demographic, we know to dose it per weight. Now, when you start to get a little bit older and, you know, we're not fluctuating our weight as much between, you know, five to 10 years, depending on physical activity and diet and all the other factors, of course, we are finding there is a consistency between the 250 and the 500. Okay. I think since you said you're so responsive to caffeine, we should just do a live experiment right now. Grab some of those energy drinks behind you. Let's just go one and then the next, and we will all rate your energy.

31:23I actually did a podcast and we were sipping and sampling and I had almost, I don't know how many of each one. And by the end of it, I was so ramped up. I was like, I got to go. I got to go. I got to get up. Just ran circles outside. I love it. Okay. Last one for you. And then I want to chat a bit more to Kelly about Karma Water. What are some of the products people might know that are out there using Cognizant if they haven't seen them in person or might not know that they have Cognizant in them? This is one of my favorites. It's Goalie Matcha. Yeah, Matcha Mind gummies. I leave this on my desk because in the middle of the day, like if I just feel like I'm starting to like lose focus and productivity and I'm like, I am just bouncing between screens.

32:06I take three gummies and I actually don't feel it right away. But what I do notice is at the end of the day, I'm like looking back at my checklist and seeing, okay, what do I need to bring into tomorrow? What did I get accomplished today? I'm like, wow, it was really productive today. And the days that I don't do that, I realize there's a significant difference. So it's not like you said for some people that feel the caffeine rush right away. It's almost like an absence of feeling it to where you're reflecting going, oh, I was actually really productive today. Or other people around you. We've had study participants.

32:38And when we did that middle-aged females, the husbands were like, I don't know what you're taking in that study, but you should take more of it. And so it's almost like people are like, do you feel it? Is there experiential feeling? Well, that's variable for each person individually. But to know that you recognize it later when you're not taking it or when people around you are recognizing it, it's kind of cool. So that's my favorite product. I do have the Karma drink. I just haven't opened it. I do love the bombs. The lollipops are really cool. I think those are just such a fun application. They're different, right?

33:08People don't expect to get health benefits from a lollipop. And it's a Jolly Rancher watermelon flavor, which is my all-time favorite. I feel like we're at a dispensary. You can get lollipops. There's other format. Like, whoa, let's go. Mosh protein bars. Yep. I don't know if you guys have tried those. In the middle of the day, I'll just reach behind me and grab a mosh bar, and it's so good. Okay. So a lot of different products out there. That was also a very good sales pitch for Goalie. I think I definitely need to order that now and try it out and see if I can get through this ever-expanding checklist that I have of my to-dos for the day.

33:45Okay, so Kelly, you must have a lot of reflections on this discussion from this brand journey that you've been on. I wonder if you could just tell me a little bit more like back to how you guys decided even that you wanted to target some of these brain health functionality, make it like so forefront for your marketing and appeal to consumers. Can you tell me a little bit more about the backstory? Yeah, great question. So when we decided we wanted to launch an energy line, we didn't want just another energy drink. We want something that was science backed that consumers could trust. And that would also support mental performance.

34:23So we touched upon it a little bit. You have your physical energy, but then there's also mental energy. So that's actually I've switched from coffee in the morning to karma energy because I'm like, yeah, coffee will give me my caffeine. But with karma, I'll also get the benefits from Cognizant. I'll also get my vitamins for the day. And we found that consumers are just looking for more from their functional food and beverage. You know, they don't just want water. They want water with these different benefits. So yeah, when we decided to go with our energy line, it just really made sense to work with a branded ingredient like Cognizant because they are clinically studied.

34:59They have the research to back it up. And it's been really great working with them. They're more than just an ingredient supplier for us. It's really a partnership. So we work on, you know, co-branded initiatives and working on that marketing and that education piece, which is mutually beneficial to both brands. And so, yeah, it's just made sense. And then it's made sense ever since we started with them. Katie, can you tell me a little bit more about that? Because I know you guys do some of that co-marketing stuff with some of the people who work with you. Can you tell me what that is like? Yeah, here.

35:29No, I'm just kidding. This is a private example. You're a part of it. It's happening right now. Well, when this was brought up, we were trying to think of what brand to bring on to represent. And Maria tossed out some ideas. And then I was like, Kelly, because when I first joined, I met Kelly at Supply Slide and we did an interview together. And I was like, God, that partnership was good. We were vibing. Like, that was awesome. Let's bring Kelly back on. So this is a perfect example. Another one is I did a symposium for dietitians who are that write and do videos for media outlets. And we were, as a dietitian myself, I'm like, what are they going to be more receptive to?

36:06An energy drink, a gummy, a supplement. I was like, a food. So we brought the MOSH team on. And so I brought Mosh out with me and we did a co-presentation to everybody. And it benefits both people because I think Mayo Clinic was like all excited about their initiative behind Alzheimer's and Maria Shriver like behind the brand. And then they were also excited about the brain health aspect and clinical studies from Cognizant. So we continue to do the co-branding and it's probably one of my favorite things that we do because while it's fun talking about an individual ingredient to have a finished good and to have their mission statement align with our mission statement, it just makes it more fun and personable.

36:43So this is the perfect example. That is awesome. Okay, so Kelly, I looked on your website. I'm just going to read this because I want to make sure I get this right. So it says, and this is like going to be just about how much do consumers know about this? So on your website, it says, Elevate your mental performance with Karma Energy Water, fortified with the patented nootropic Cognizant. This clinically tested form of citicholine, a naturally occurring nutrient in the brain, provides the essential nutrition your brain craves for optimal focus and cognitive health. And then you have this super cool video, actually, which I think is just from the Cognizant team.

37:20And it's on there and explains in a really fun way how Cognizant can support your brain's neurotransmitters. And, you know, it's like for me, science is scary. And I did not find this scary. I thought it very interesting and fun to watch. So overall, like how much do you think consumers understand what it is that like how your product works and all of these benefits behind it versus just like a cursory look like, yeah, that looks good. I'll have that. Yeah, I mean, I think it depends on the consumer because I think some are looking for that deeper level of education and understanding. And that's where, you know, we can only tell so much of a story on our label.

37:56So our website gives us that opportunity to expand and let those consumers who want the deeper dive, they can go to our site. And that's another reason why working with a branded ingredient like Cognizant is great, because while we're the beverage experts, they are the scientists. So they give us those nice explainer videos. They make sure that the language that we're using is clear and accurate and actually reflects the claims that we can make. So it's definitely that partnership, again, in action is figuring out how we can best explain it to the consumer. Now, yeah, some want to know more. I think others are just like, oh, it's a flavored water and don't even realize all the benefits.

38:35So we're always trying to figure out the best way to educate and meet the consumer where they are. And you must get questions from them over email, right? Like people must be curious about this because it's just such an interesting product and delivery mechanism. What are the kind of questions that they typically send in to you most commonly? That'd be a great question for Taylor, our consumer relations. I think sometimes we get the, it just tasted like plain water. And you say, oh, they missed the whole cap. So it was just plain water. We're like, okay, maybe that's on us. Even though, you know, we have push cap to infuse.

39:10We have instructions all over. In general, I think a lot of questions come around, you know, how can we guarantee the claims that we make. And actually your last podcast episode about like label transparency, I love that one because that's something we pride ourselves on. And so it's really great for our consumer relations team when people are reaching out, being like, hey, am I actually getting, you know, all these vitamins or with our probiotic line? Am I actually getting digestive health? How can you prove that? With our cap, it makes it easy for us. And we do have third-party studies as well to back that up.

39:48So I think working for a product that has science-backed ingredients and we have unique delivery formats makes it easy for our consumer relations team to respond to those customers. I think that's a really good point. I'm glad you brought up that previous episode, the one we just did with Lauren Handel a few weeks back, who, yeah, just total pro on all this stuff, really helpful listen for people. And Caitlin, I think that actually could be a good question for you in the radical science perspective. So, you know, I think typically brands are making their product and they understand the benefits they're going for.

40:20They can read through details on the ingredients that they're using. Now, in this kind of instance, they might be wanting for the product that they're dreaming up to claim different things, like whether it's focus or memory or mood. And typically they would consult a lawyer or regulatory consultant, someone like that, to look at that stuff. But I wonder, Caitlin, if you have any thoughts about that or like tips for brands or things you think they should think about when they're actually looking to make sure they're on the right side when they make a claim like that. So, Katie, maybe that is a good question actually back for you and Kiowa, which is, okay, brands, when they get started, typically they're going to have something specific that they want to claim for their product or maybe some different options.

41:06Maybe they don't know exactly, but they want to read through the different ingredient specs and understand what they could possibly claim. They might be deciding between some different options or maybe their regulatory consultant or lawyer has told them there are a few things you could say, whether it's, you know, supports focus or memory or mood. How do you think they could be deciding between those different things and making sure that they can substantiate it and, you know, be on the right side with just, you know, in the case that one of these lawyers comes after them, which can happen? Yeah, I work with lawyers daily.

41:36Not my favorite part of the job, but it's very important. Label transparency, scientific transparency is really important. It's something that we pride ourselves on at Kiowa. And when I think about designing a study, obviously we're doing it not just for scientific exploration, but we want to be able to translate our results into a claim. So we need to make sure that the science is transferable. Like you are able, generalizable, I think is the better term. So generalizability is being able to say, I tested it in males and females of a wide range. And we used a validated tool. If it's not a validated tool, you're going to have a really hard time substantiating that in front of a court of law.

42:16Especially when it comes to a regulatory body like FTC and FDA. So validated tools are important. you want to be able to make sure that the endpoint that you're measuring is going to work in all demographics and age ranges. So that's why doing one study isn't always appropriate because you can't capture everything and everyone in one study. If you can, awesome kudos to you, but that's really hard to do. So that's why doing repeatability and having validity behind the test that you're using, the endpoints that you're measuring, that helps to build the totality of evidence around your substantiation for these claims.

42:50So then you can build out a dossier that says, we're looking at focus. We've done it in males. We've done it in females. We've done it in 13 to 18 year olds, 40 to 60 year olds, 90 year olds. We've done it on acute. We've done it for nine months. Like you have to have that generalizability of the data to be able to apply those findings to a product label, if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. So Kelly, then coming back to you on the Karma water slide, Let's say a new founder comes up to you and they're saying like, hey, I want to develop a product in this space. I really think brain health is important.

43:24And I just am having trouble figuring out even like what ingredients to use or what claims to make or how to communicate that to consumers. What would be some overall tips that you would have for them on how to do this right? I would say an overall tip would be find a branded ingredient. So we know how to market karma. And with this specific product line, because we're using Cognizant, they give us those tools. You know, they give us those buzzwords that do speak to the consumer. So mental acuity, focus, mental energy, they give us ways. They'll sit down with our sales team so that they know how to talk about it at trade shows.

43:57Because unfortunately, I can't just put Katie in my pocket and let her come to all the shows with me and talk to explain Cognizant. So I would say if you are looking to include, you know, functional claims, functional ingredients, it's worth working with a branded ingredient because they are, you know, another tool to add to your toolkit and they'll really help you. And it's a true partnership. That makes sense to me. Like when I had an energy product, for sure, one of the first things I did is once we got the formulation, I looked at who's providing the energy source there and, you know, go comb through their website, just looking at some of the different things that they tell you about the product and the story and the differentiators for their specific brand of the product and what it does.

44:43And a lot of that, I'm thinking about how to weave back into our overall story, whether that's a story I'm telling to buyers to help them understand why our product is so good and clean and all that stuff, or even potentially if it's stuff that I would then put kind of front of house, like facing towards consumers as well. But both of those ended up being really important and just like truly understanding your supply chain. But although I think the supplier probably would have been happy to get on a call with me, I don't think I was going to get access to all of their research and all of their scientists, all of that firepower that you really want to the point where, yeah, you have the kind of generalizability or transferability or whatever of the science behind the actual ingredient that I can almost claim as my own then as the brand because, yeah, we use that ingredient.

45:29So this is true for our brand as well. So I think that's a really good tip. I think that makes a lot of sense. obviously everybody has to look at you know the formulation and the cost of everything and you know make a good decision but that i can definitely see how that can make things a lot easier because i feel like if you go out and demo and you're a founder and you have a product and you're someone's trying your product they might ask you about the 30 like the 20th ingredient on your label and ask you like 20 questions about it you're like i'll be honest i don't know the answer to that i'd be happy to look into it and come back to you but as a founder of a brand like i'm not the person who actually makes this.

46:03I have the overall dream and idea, but I did not hand grind each of these ingredients from scratch. I don't actually, I'm not an expert on every single one of them. I hopefully know generally what's in the product and the pros and cons, but yeah. So I think, you know, when you can have partners who can really help you with that part of the education, it's really, really helpful as a founder, but you know, yeah, we just different people have different skillsets too. You might have some founders that actually go very deep on that op side on the science side, even some founders who really do come from that scientific background and others who are much more, I would say, marketing forward or sales forward or, you know, a lot of different kinds of skill sets out there.

46:39So that is very beautiful when you have partners who can really help you with that. And the science teams who can also then like radical science get in there and really take a close look at your finished product and test things like that for you. So I am going to wrap us up here, ladies, but this has just been such a cool conversation. you know i think probably every brand out there would love to be in this kind of a situation where they have a really strong science-backed story that's been tested by labs that they can you know really be very confident about not every brand can do that not every brand will have this kind of ingredient accessible to them for exact for whatever it is they're trying to do out there outside of the brain health ingredient space or whatever but that is it's a i think something that everybody can aspire to as well.

47:26So cool. As we wrap up here, I would love if maybe each of you could just give us any final words and also just, you know, if there's any way that people can follow along with you or your company, maybe you can give them the best way to do that. So I will start with you, Kelly, to wrap us up with Karma Water. Yeah. So with Karma, you know, success isn't just about selling drinks. It's about building that consumer trust and that journey. And that comes with using branded science-backed ingredients and, you know, always delivering a product that tastes good and actually gives you those functional benefits because that's what the consumers want nowadays.

48:02At Karma, you know, we're always looking to elevate wellness and, you know, mental performance and in a way that consumers can trust. And we're always rolling out, you know, new exciting flavors and product lines. So best way to follow along social is at Drink Karma and then Drink Karma Water. And then our website is drinkkarma.com. We're also, you know, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, you name it, we're on it. So give us a follow and you'll see, you know, we'll cross post with Katie and the Cognizant team as well. I love it. All right. Great. Thank you so much. And congrats to you guys on all of that success.

48:38Really seems like you're on a great journey. Okay. Caitlin coming to you next for Radical Science. How can people follow along, learn more yeah uh well radical we're moving into gen 2 we are in a whole new phase of newly customizable protocols and new measurables or measures and wearables and biomarkers and digital biomarkers so we're in a new phase which means that finding a way to say it about that by the way we have to talk yes yeah it really is cool okay caitlin coming to you how can people follow along with radical science and learn more yeah well you can find us radicalscience.com we're also pretty active on LinkedIn for the different updates we've got going on.

49:18Right now we're moving into Gen 2, which means we have more customizable protocols than ever, more measures. We're incorporating wearables and biomarkers, digital biomarkers, a lot of new stuff we're able to do. But radicalscience.com or LinkedIn are the best places to keep up with us. Caitlin, I love that. Also, just fun fact for everybody. I actually know the co-founder and CEO of Radical Science, just much more socially though, because we were friends in LA and ended up jamming together as musicians. So he's a multi-talented guy. I don't know. He also has a TED Talk out there that you can check out, but he is a very solid guitarist and we've jammed and it's great.

49:57That's so cool. Yes, we love multi-talented people. Okay. Katie, coming to you to wrap up from Keowa, how can people learn more, follow up with you guys, all the good stuff? Pretty much everything that Kelly and Caitlin just said. LinkedIn website, social media, Kiowa has its own website where you can learn about the mission and vision of being a Japanese company, especially our fermentation process. So that's really innovative and cool. And then if you wanted to go to the Cognizant website, it's just cognizant.com. If you're looking for products where you can find karma water and other, like I think we have over 300 products now.

50:29You go to the buy Cognizant tab and you can even sort through, you know, if you want beverages versus chocolates or capsules, It's a very easy navigational tool. And then same thing if like Cetria, you can go to the Cetria glutathione website as well. All right, perfect. Thank you each so much. This was super interesting. And I am very excited for all the brands to get to hear this. I think they will have a lot of follow-up questions for each of you. So don't be surprised if your LinkedIn start blowing up. So, all right. Thank you, everybody. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to our podcast.

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