#260 - Packaging Changes as you Grow with Evie's Snacks and Belmark

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1:20We kind of expanded on some of the earlier designs for EVs and we got the pouch made. We put it in front of a buyer for a category review. And the feedback we got was, oh, I thought this was laundry detergent, which wasn't, which is, you know, not really close to roasted pecans at all. So I think one of those earlier learnings for us was, hey, you probably do know a lot about your product, but like maybe go ahead and spend the time to put it in front of some buyers before you finalize it, because they're going to be incredibly helpful for did my packaging do the selling that it needs to. When you're first launching, things generally change.

2:02I mean, I would say 50 % of the people that I've worked with from Startup CPG, their art hasn't been the same on run number one to run number two. Because, I mean, they figure something out. They're new to this. They go with a co-packer. That co-packer didn't work out. I had to change this. So really helping them, like, this is the right quantity to go through. I mean, too many times that people make those mistakes. Welcome to the Startup CPG Podcast. I have a newsflash for you. However good you think your packaging is right now, it's going to change. It does for everyone, and that's okay. Something might work well in the early days, but as you grow, you get feedback, you refine your branding, you learn what's important to your consumers, and you adapt.

2:44On today's podcast, we have Evie's Snacks talking about all the things they had to change as they grew, first from farmers markets into independent stores and then into national retail. We're also joined by our partners at Belmark. They probably work with more brands from our community on packaging than just about anyone, and they've seen it all. If you want to chat with them about stand-up pouches, labels, or cartons, you can go to belmark.com. It's in the show notes, or hit up Cody Ponsler in our Slack. He's always there. He will respond to you right away. All right, here we go.

3:20All right, welcome everyone to the podcast. I'm so excited about today's discussion because I recently talked to a founder of a company that you all know who had recently expanded into mass and convenience and was making very substantial changes to the packaging because the old packaging just wasn't going to play once you got out of the natural world. And it really made me think about what are those changes that people make over time? Because I think every founder, when they get their first beautiful packaging, thinks, no, this is it. I know everyone else has to change their packaging over time, but not me because this is perfect.

3:51How could it not be? But then inevitably, everybody does change it because you learn things and you got things wrong and you get suggestions from buyers and feedback from consumers. So today we're going to talk a lot about what that journey is like for one particular brand. So I'm really happy that we have Eve from Evie's here and also our friends from Belmark, the experts in packaging. And we're just going to talk a little bit about the brand and what those things are that make you change over time and what are the impacts and what can brands learn from it. So, Eve, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

4:22First of all, can you just tell everybody all about Evie's? Yeah, absolutely. Daniel, thanks for having me. We are Evie's first direct from farm pecan snacks. We focus on fun, nostalgic flavors. They're crunchy, snackable, only have one third the total sugar of leading brands. And the best part is they're all sourced from my family farms in South Texas. They're so good. First of all, everybody knows it. Anyone who's had it is like, damn, they're so good. You guys are such a good time at trade shows, too. We love the cowboy hats. We have fun. Also, you have a special place in our editor, Caitlin's Heart, because her daughter is named Edie, and she loves your products.

5:04So that's just a double bonus. But how is it possible that it tastes so good and it only has a third the sugar of the competitors? Because it's amazing. Well, you know, if you start with really fresh, high-quality pecans, you don't need to put a ton of sugar on them. That's kind of the secret. And we do have a double bake process to get that, you know, really nice crunchy texture. What a good answer. Just use high quality pecans. All right. That's what we like to hear. Beautiful. Okay, cool. Cody, I'm coming to you. Thank you so much for joining us. We love having Belmar in the community. Has always been the most recommended packaging expert on these kind of stand-up pouches that are so common in this category.

5:44So, Cody, give us the intro. Thanks for having me, Daniel. And y 'all, hey guys, you probably see me bouncing in and out of the Slack channel. I just love the collaboration on there. I love making the connections, whether it be finding a designer, a co-packer, you're looking for packaging. Even if you're not just quite sure what your question is and what it leads to, shoot it to me. So happy to help you guys and really excited to be part of the Startup CPG community. And this is true. You can hit up Cody with pretty much any packaging question in there and he will help you and he knows who else can help you also.

6:14So, Cody, thank you. We've been tag brothers in the Slack for a long time, always tagging you into the to all the questions. OK, so Eve, coming back to you, because you guys have come so far. I wonder, can you wind the clock back all the way to the beginning and talk to me about here's how we launched and here's how we thought about packaging in that moment? Yeah, absolutely. You know, we really started simple and we were just wanting to learn, not really optimizing for perfection in any way. So pre-retail, we were really just at farmer's markets, focused on D2C and trying to learn, you know, what our customers cared about and how to talk to them on the packaging.

6:52So we really, our first packaging was simple. It was just a standard craft vibe with labels and they were black and white. A little bit of time afterwards, you know, we brought in a freelance designer. We said, hey, maybe we should have a logo. Let's create a small mood board. Let's start to get a feel for what the brand could be. What are some of the colors we want to bring in? And at that point, we designed custom stickers that we kept applying to those craft bags. So we stuck with that for quite a while. And we really wanted just to keep learning from our customers, keep getting feedback. Eventually, we got to the point where we said, OK, I think it's time for a fully custom printed pouch, which is where we started to work with Belmark.

7:29And I can't say we knew that the custom printed pouch would be great for just shelf life, for protecting the product, for like the ultimate customer experience. But we still had a lot to learn what that bag looked like. And we didn't come out with our packaging we have today. It took some time before we did a full rebrand. So some advice and food for thought is definitely don't rush it. Really take your time. Let the packaging evolve and keep it simple in the beginning because a lot of things are going to change how you describe the flavor or claims or certifications you want to get. So we really took our time there.

8:06And, you know, when we got to doing this larger rebrand with Pulp & Wire, we were much more informed about what the packaging we should be prioritizing on the pack. So let's just dig into your current packaging a little bit, because I think for me, I love branding that is self-explanatory. And I give these examples all the time, but brands like yours and Just Ice Tea, where it doesn't require a lot of consumer education. You can just look at it and you immediately know what it is. It takes you one second to understand what that product is and it looks good and you want it and you take it. That's the kind of stuff for me that can really stand on its own without all the consumers understanding.

8:44What is this thing? What is the what are the adaptogenic properties going to do to me? Like all this stuff. You don't need the story behind it. It's just that looks good. I'll have that. So, right. Like if for anyone who hasn't seen the EVs packaging, definitely recommend that you check it out, go to their website, maybe throw an order their way. But it's sort of like a kind of refined, modern, old fashioned combo look with big, fun, bright colors. And so you have the EVs written in cursive and then in big, bold, Texas pecan. And then the biggest ever picture of a beautiful, high quality looking pecan.

9:18And then the flavor name in big, bold below that. It's so simple. And then honestly, there are things around it that look good, but they're not too distracting. But I probably don't even see most of those when I look at the package. I just see this beautiful pecan staring me down saying, eat me. And it just looks good. So just current, like, what is your thought about the packaging overall now? Is that like what you're going for? Or what is it that you want to convey to people currently with the packaging? Yeah, no, it's a great question. I'm kind of a little bit echoing what you said, Daniel.

9:51We got some advice early on from a mentor of ours who works, has worked in potato chips for years. And he said, you know, you have three seconds with a consumer and they ask themselves two questions. One, do I want the product? And two, can I afford it? And so your packaging needs to solve for at least question number one of like, do I want product? And for us, we have a lot of secondary feel good things. You know, it is a family farm. They're from Texas. It's women-owned, non-GMO. But first and foremost of like, do you want pecans? Do you want a snack on pecans? And so we really needed to make, have a really sexy pecan out there and make it really easy to understand these are snacking pecans.

10:30So certainly we wanted to make sure that photography, that visual there was as attractive and as appealing as possible. And part of what really stands out here is like that flavor profile. You know, it's these are sweet roasted pecans and a little bit different than what you see in the nut snacking aisle. So we we really wanted those flavor names to be big, to be bold and to be recognizable. So those were kind of some of the hierarchy on the pack is that big pecan, that flavor name. And then, of course, you know, Evie's Texas Pecans. For us, I love brands where you kind of know who's behind them and who's making the product.

11:06And so for us, that was a big part of it of that is a connection point with people. And so that was also really important for us. But as you mentioned, you know, there's a lot of secondary things that some consumers who want to know more might be looking for non-GMO or might be looking for a specific certification. So we have those. And but they're definitely kind of priority number two. And you have to be pretty restrained. If you have too much, you actually they might not pick up on any of that. So for front of pack, definitely hierarchy and priorities is really key and being restrained. Can you educate me a little bit on the pecan category?

11:42So you said you mentioned the nut aisle. Like, can you explain like where is this typically merchandised in the store and what is the competitive landscape? Like, are there national pecan players that you're going to encounter in the natural channel or versus in conventional stuff like that? Like, how does that work? Because that'll help us also understand the role of the packaging. Yeah, absolutely. In nuts, so snacking nuts is, we usually sit kind of in snacking nuts, which is in the larger like salty snacks set. So depending on store, it might be a pretty big section. Sometimes you're sitting next to pretzels, popcorn, maybe chips.

12:17But for us, we're sitting with a lot of the other like snacking nut companies. So think Planters Peanuts, Wonderful Pistachios, Blue Diamond Almonds. Like there are some pretty big names and some pretty big behemoths in the space. And a lot of the other nuts have a pretty defined household name. Not totally true for pecans, which is great for us. And so that's one thing. There's not a clear winner in the pecan space, which is why you have to put your best foot forward. Packaging also having kind of the attributes consumers are looking for. But one of the other learnings that we had just early on is there are quite a few kind of savory rose, savory mixes in the nut space.

12:55and not a ton of sweet-leaning flavors. Luckily for us, they just go well with pecans. And so we really leaned into that. And as we've talked with buyers, for us, we've really made the pitch for, hey, this really grows in that category because we're giving consumers new ways to interact with that. So you could throw it on yogurt or a salad, have it on a charcuterie board or kind of a sweet afternoon treat. So it gives us a little bit of white space to play in and it also helps grow the category, which is usually a win-win for a buyer. Okay, so that's super helpful. And when it comes to people discovering your product, if in the case where it's just sitting in a nut set, what would make somebody choose your product?

13:35Is it because they are there looking for pecans or they're just open to a nut in general and they see your packaging stand out on the shelf and like, oh yeah, I wanted nuts, but I kind of also have a sweet tooth and that looks great. Like what is their journey the first time they discover you? Yeah, usually that, you know, you kind of talked about it. Like this is someone who's already shopping the nut aisle. They probably already are snacking on nuts throughout their week. It's already part of their kind of daily life. And we're trying to present them with, hey, this is a kind of a sweet leaning flavor.

14:04Like this does kind of satisfy other use cases that maybe your smokehouse almonds hasn't satisfied. So definitely it is playing in that healthy indulgence category. But for us too, one of the places that we have had to educate consumers is pecans haven't been the most snackable beforehand. It's usually put in something. It's in a pecan pie or it's in a baked good or it's in ice cream. There haven't always been so many pecans sitting in that snacking nut set. Or if they have been, they're not super modern or kind of meeting the attributes that customers are looking for. I'm so hungry right now.

14:42Pecan pie, pecan ice cream. Let's go. Okay. I think Cody, you got to be starving now at this point. Let's tag you in here. So Cody, you know, this thing that I'm saying about EVs, and I honestly, I really think that any brand out there that's early, I really recommend that you look up this packaging. I really mean that. I think it is a great example of a brand that can play anywhere. And it's they don't have to already be nationally recognized for somebody just to seat on the shelf and want to grab it. And the brand name is nice and short. It's not complicated. It's just like pecans. Good. Grab it.

15:14Okay. So I'd love for people to take a look at it. But Cody, what do you think? Do you feel that same way about it? Because you see so much packaging, right? Probably more pouches than anybody that I've ever known will see. So how does this compare to a lot of other stuff that you've seen? Do you see what I see in it or what are your thoughts? I couldn't agree more. Like, so he was talking about, and now everyone take this for the green itself because I am not in marketing, right? When people ask me for their opinions, they're getting mine. But what I like to tell people is, Eve, you went with a great picture on the front of your packaging.

15:47Some people go through windows. It kind of is like, what is your product? And what does the story that tells? Does it just look better on a window or on yours? You have a great photograph. You can see all the textures, all the sugars on the almond. Like it looks fully enticing. So that's something that I talk with people a lot. Like, do you have a product that you want to have see on there? Or is it like, you know, like a beef jerky? You're going to want to see like, hey, this jerky is fresh. Like, I think you made a great decision with a beautiful picture as opposed to a window right there. How did you make that decision, Eve?

16:17Because I think that's a really good point. I can't imagine your packaging without the photo on it. As good as it looks even just, I mean, that is what the pecans look like, but the photo just really makes you want to grab it. Did you guys go back and forth on that question? How did you think about it? Yeah, early on, we started with the craft bag, so we did have the window. Over time, it became more of kind of an operational decision or an operations decision. We, by not going with the window, we could get a pouch that just had more protection, could preserve that shelf life a little bit better by not having that, you know, clear plastic film.

16:51So ultimately for us, it was, you know, hey, it came down to operations and wanting to protect shelf life, protecting that. So I think people have to kind of know their product, know the category of what are those shelf lights you're trying to hit? What are you seeing other people doing in the space? And of course, like there's different questions of do you want to see the actual product and is that really important for your customer or is it more so just being representative of and meeting that expectation when they do open the bag? What is your shelf life currently, if I can ask? Yeah. So our top SKU, Sweet and Salty, is 12 months.

17:25And then our other three SKUs, Cinnamon Churro, Banana Bread, Brown Butter Rum, are nine months from manufacturing. Awesome. So and just to in case anyone's not as familiar with some of the rules around shelf life. They're very important. Shelf life can make all the difference. And obviously, I mean, the number one goal is to have a good product for the consumer, right? You want your best quality product out there. You want them to experience the best taste and all parts of your product as possible. When you have 12-month shelf life, so a lot of the big distributors will require when you sell into them, they will require 75 % of the shelf life to be left.

18:01In my experience, I don't know if they're always enforcing it, but that is in the rules. And so So that means if they require that shelf life of 75%, that when EVs, Texas pecans are produced, they need to go into distribution within three months, right? So that it still has the nine months left. If you are talking about, let's say, Cody, what could a window potentially impact on shelf life? Would it take it down by, you know, a third or half? But I know there's not an exact rule on this, but when you have that, you know, the light coming in and affecting the product. It does. It does affect it.

18:34And then percentage-wise, I always tell people, so we're not food scientists. We're like the packaging expert. We could tell you the water transmission, the air respiration. But what I'm looking for really on that, like we know we could have had a window on this. I always think about what tells your brand story better. She is getting a little bit better of shelf life on this. That's the kind I try to focus. We have the correct film. If you needed like extended shelf life, there might have been another film we're going to go to as the clear. I think in Eve's decision making, that coupled with the images that she used, that's what tells her brand story best.

19:10I gotcha. Okay, so that makes a lot of sense. So there are a lot of different ways you can do it. Again, I think you guys made such a good decision. But it definitely, if you're cutting down shelf life, even by a couple months, then you have even less time to sell it into the distributor. And gosh, like the clock is ticking, right? Because especially when you're a growing brand, and your forecast is already so variable, like, am I going to get that national account? or not. I don't know. I have all this inventory. I don't want to waste it. So they have a nice long shelf life is a very attractive thing.

19:38So that makes a lot of sense. Okay. So Cody, what are the first conversations like with you and brands usually? Because there are so many people asking for packaging. I sort of winced a little bit when Eve talked about having that first packaging of just, yeah, you know, we like got the, those sort of like manila covered bags, then throw a label on it? Because I sometimes see brands at our events pitching those to national buyers. I'm like, don't do it. No, no. Like, I can't the full thing. But yeah, one of those first conversations, like, it's so tough because when you're an early stage brand, you don't always have the money for a big print and all that stuff.

20:14So you kind of do what you have to do. That's a great question. Those are the conversations I'm having every day. And Eve's story is exactly the way you're supposed to do it. People sometimes they want to run before they walk and like, but they don't completely understand their product, right? Like Eve's doing this. She was in a craft pouch with the label and you're at a farmer's market. That's where I'm suggesting people to start. My first conversations are always, what is your brand and where are you at and where are we going? I want to be more of a packaging consultant and like, where are you at right now and where are we going to?

20:47So that's what kind of leads me in my conversations. So, okay. To dig into this one a little bit in my experience, because you got, you know, I meet a lot of founders and I'm very excited to see their products and very like the earlier, the better. We want people to find us when they're even just thinking about doing something so we can help them with all the resources. But it is very common that someone will come up to me with maybe not even packaging yet, just like a plastic baggie, which we'll try it. Like, you know, we're interested in to provide some resources, maybe introduce them to Cody to help out.

21:17But I do find sometimes people, even in that state, Eve, where they still have that really original packaging with just like, you know, a kind of label home printed stuck on it. I often will be like, yeah, have you thought about maybe upgrading to the. And I think sometimes for them, the state that they're in, it's actually hard for them to even recognize that it could be so much better because they're like, it is very exciting. That first time that you make your own product. Oh, my gosh. And like a label and it has my name on it, my brand. Like, that's so exciting. So I think sometimes it's actually even hard for them to receive the feedback or even just wrap their heads around the idea that maybe it could be something 10 scales above that.

21:58Cody, is it like that when you're talking to brands? Are they like, no, I mean, it's pretty good already. Like, I guess you can give us a sample, but what's it? I mean, how is it going to be this? So generally the conversations that I'm having, when it gets to me, it's like, hey, I'm ready. I have all the ideas and I'm ready to scale and I want to see what's out there. so then that's what i'm doing is i want to understand their brand and help them tell their brand story right and i don't mean that from a design package like i always tell people if you're looking for me to say hey you mix brown and yellow and i don't know if that looks good or not that's not the kind of feedback like i'm probably best at giving what i'm thinking about is like what's the story you're telling if it's luxury kind of premium product i probably want my packaging to reflect that.

22:42Maybe if it's more commodity price, like, hey, we have solutions for that as well. But like I tell people, I wouldn't want to retail something for$1.99 and then get the highest, most premium package. I want to have something that fits for my product. That makes sense. So, Eve, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about also of just that, like, no, it's great. And it works in the farmer's markets and everyone's going to accept this, right? There must have been a moment when maybe it was the first time someone sent you a sample of what the upgraded packaging could look like, or maybe you just saw a competitor and you're like, yeah, we should look more like that.

23:15Do you remember that feeling? Yeah, I think it just goes back to kind of like knowing what stage you're at and like knowing what stage you're at and what is the right solution. So when we were selling at farmer's markets and selling just online, totally fine to have the craft bag and like, and we were really changing it all the time. You know, we got feedback. This flavor name is really not, customers are not understanding it. We needed to update it. And luckily we could do that quickly. But it was once we started kind of next stage, starting to go into independence, you know, you have a sell sheet, you're selling into independence.