#84, Google Cloud MD UKI, Helen Kelisky on Diversity, AI and Cloud Technology

0:00I think we are in an entirely new era of digital transformation. information fueled by Gen.ai is technology is already improving how businesses operate and how humans interact with one another. It's changing the way doctors care for patients. It's changing the way people communicate and even the way workers are kept safe on the job. And, you know, Gareth, this is just the beginning.

0:26We have been so lucky to interview some incredible female tech leaders over the last couple of years and this is right up there with the best. Helen Kalisky is the Managing Director for the UK region at Google Cloud and furthermore is a philanthropist, a women in tech advocate and an all-round seasoned operator in the world of cloud and software. Her insight was absolutely fascinating. We covered the nuances of leadership, the landscape of global digital transformation, what sets Google apart and we also have a contemplation on how the evolution of generative AI will impact major players in the cloud industry over the coming years.

1:04Helen was a joy to chat to. She's recently been named in the Computer Weekly Top 50 Most Influential Female Tech Leaders in the UK, along with a couple of other ex-guests, may I add. There's no surprise as to why that's happened. Helen is absolutely brilliant.

1:25Helen Kaliski, I am so excited to get you onto the Tech Leaders Podcast. How are you today? I'm great. Thank you, Gareth. Fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. We always start with this one. You've held leadership positions in companies like Salesforce, OpenTex, and most recently, Google Cloud. What does good leadership mean to you, Helen? Oh, I think it means quite a number of things. I'd say a good leader, to my mind, puts themselves in service of their team rather than presiding. It's important that I am able to make everyone within my organisation do their best work.

2:03They are not in service of me. There's only one of me. So I am in service of them. So very important to be in service of them and not to preside. I think it's important to support your team, to give feedback and invite feedback back, right? Be prepared for that and promote a continued desire to learn. I think also something that's very important is a good sense of humor. Always helps. Yes, always, always helps in a number of ways. And a good leader is one that makes their team feel safe so they're able to create and thrive and be innovative. But also you've got to find that balance between warmth and edge.

2:42right so a good leader needs to be able to fuel a sense of belonging but also get the job done so ensuring that everyone is doing what they ought to do not just what they want to do always raises alarm bells with me if a leader is liked by everyone over a long period of time because it makes me question if they're leading in the right way what you want to be is respected which doesn't always mean like in my view doesn't always being liked by everybody have you got any examples of somebody or some historical figure in the public domain who people would know about who you look up to in in a leadership sort of context at all oh that's an interesting question it can be a literary character if you like helen i don't you know i just wondering if you've got any examples oh i think there's some heroes in movies i'm a big movie buff and you know you only have to think of movies like gladiator you know where where you know the hero the protagonist is not always like you know that makes the story because actually they're making the difference and they're changing the outcome no absolutely i really really keen that's the first time i've heard we've asked this question about 84 times i think yeah and a really interesting point about it's suspicious if a leader is liked by everyone i've never really thought about it like that but it is absolutely true i think of alex ferguson i mean people did like perfect example people did like him but they absolutely feared him these players were terrified of him so you know he had by default he was respected so um so yeah no it's a really interesting topic i could i could go on all day on specifically that that one question but let's let's maybe move on i noticed you've got uh nominated number 39 in the the computer weekly's most influential women in tech in 2023 i reckon you'll be in the top 10 next year, Helen, but that is an amazing achievement.

4:37Thank you, Gareth. What I was going to say, I think we did chat about this beforehand, but I think women in tech is becoming closer and closer to just the norm. It's not this sort of unique thing anymore. Why do you think less women enter the tech industry than men? What do you think the reason is for that at the moment, Helen? Well, what I'd start with saying, you know, I've been in this industry over a generation. Gosh, that sounds like a long time, doesn't it? And we have come a long way. I think some women are put off just by the thought of it, maybe because they think they have to be technical.

5:14And you don't. There are technical jobs and there are non-technical jobs. And I think everyone has got more technical and happy with tech as the years have gone by anyway. I think also the industry could do and I think is doing a better job at recruiting in a way which is more inclusive, helping create an environment that thrives on, you know, inclusivity and diversity. One of the reasons I love living in London is because it's such a diverse place to be. Oh, yes. And it is indeed. You know, I think I think the industry is getting better at doing that but these things take time and so there's still a way to go no that absolutely is but we are going in the right direction aren't we i just we are and as you say when we don't have to have awards for women and we don't have to have awards dinners for women and we don't have to talk about it we can just talk about people in tech then yeah we've got that and that's the end goal that's what i'd like to see 100 people in tech awards with women winning an equal share of the awards do you know what i mean across you know that's where we need to get to isn't it i've got two daughters and i'm just i just i'm suspicious that we still subconsciously unintentionally nudge young females towards uh stereotypical traditional careers like i said unintentionally and maybe we need to look at that from from that sort of grassroots level you know gareth you have the perfect opportunity to change it you are one One of the, you know, you're in a key position, given that you have two daughters, to make a real difference there.

6:58And I think some of it is, you know, the fathers that have daughters that is really going to help continue to drive this. Yeah, I feel under pressure already. Thanks for that, Helen. Not putting you on the hook or anything. You are a good leader, aren't you? You've got me, you've got me, performance managing me already. But yeah, no, no, absolutely. I do agree with you. I think it is about confidence, isn't it? And I think it comes from the family. It comes from the home, doesn't it? I mean, we need young women to aim for the top and they need positive role models like you. So, you know, so look, Helen, can we, for the listeners who don't know of yourself, they obviously would have heard of Google Cloud and would know about Google Cloud.

7:35Can you talk us through your formative years? Maybe what did you want to be when you grew up? Can you tell us about that early part of your career? Just to recap. So my name is Helen Kilisky. I am managing director of Google Cloud for UK and Ireland. I've been in tech sales leadership for more than 30 years and been in cloud, running cloud businesses for many years. I have a degree in business from Middlesex University, and I also have a diploma in market research. What I do outside work is also really important. So I love to travel, although the recent pandemic has sort of held me back somewhat.

8:09But I have this goal to visit 100 countries, and I'm at 51, Gareth. oh wow so I've got to get on with it that's a great goal by the way I'm actually going to steal that 100 I'm such an I love traveling myself uh love to play the piano I took it I used to play it when I was younger and then I took it back up with during COVID love playing the piano and swim and run and I've even run a half marathon I think I might I might consider carefully whether I ever run another one and I also love movies which we touched on so uh Formative years. So maths was my favourite subject in school. I loved anything to do with numbers.

8:48But I also enjoyed the social aspect of learning, making new friends, experiencing new things with them. And because of this, I knew I needed to do something varied and interesting that involved interacting with other people and learning and learning from them. And I'm constantly looking to learn from everyone in my life, my team, my customers, my partners, my children, my husband. You know, I always have this saying, every day is a learning day. And I joined the world from tech straight from university. When I graduated, I wanted a career in an industry that was fast paced and would give me the opportunity to keep learning at speed.

9:26And I thought the tech industry seems to be a good place to go. And I've never looked back really, Gareth. Yeah, sure. So can you tell us about your first opportunity then? How did you get into the tech sector? It was a good one. I went to work for IBM and, you know, stayed for 30 years. But, you know, there was a time when it was the right decision to leave. And then I went to join Salesforce and then eventually ended up in Google Cloud. And I always look to go to places, you know, if I'm given the opportunity where I feel I can make a difference. What are the important milestones do you look back on now and think, you know, that was definitely a milestone?

10:09Maybe on what hardships as well and lessons did you learn along the way? One of the standout milestones of my career was actually leaving a company after three decades. And I think while there are many benefits of building a career in a single organisation, You know, leaving it can be a little daunting, but embracing change is sometimes necessary. You know, in order, you know, I talk about my continued desire to learn and grow and that's important. And sometimes it was just time. So, you know, since taking the leap from IBM to Salesforce and now Google Cloud, I've learned new skills, witnessed new innovations, discovered new interests, you know, every step of the way.

10:49And that's really important to me. You know, one thing I also learned early on is to take a job where you feel you can make the biggest difference and learn the most. And that doesn't mean taking a job where it's the most popular or, you know, other people may not want that job, but you take it and it gives you an opportunity and you make it yours. And that's a really good thing to be able to do as well. I think what you put in is always going to be reflected of what you get out. 100%. And, you know, it's all about finding new opportunities to continue to learn and about having a growth mindset.

11:24One challenge I did face that always sticks with me as a leader was being asked by my leader at the time to let someone go. and I really didn't agree with this request or decision and it really would have gone against my values as a leader and as a colleague and I actually refused and discussed the issue with a so I sought help from another person I respected in the organisation to help me manage my way through it and it was a very uncomfortable experience because I was going against my boss but it actually you know worked I worked away through it and it taught me to stick to my values and seek help from those around me when I need it and be true to myself and I think also sometimes you need to take personal risk to be a leader 100 % sense yeah absolutely it does and I think you know you've touched on this guys but experiences that are smooth sailing aren't necessarily the ones that stick with you months or years later it's the it's the the hiccups that you you know that you you encounter along the way that you learn most for and that you remember and then you can apply that learning going forward yeah 100 i think sports coaches and managers say say it all the time don't they i mean you don't learn too much from your victories but you you learn a lot from your losses you you kind of win or you learn don't you and it's the same in your career i think it's the hardships that teach you the teach you the lessons i'm sure there's probably a stoic quote to back that up but um but yeah i don't know what it is but yeah i think i totally resonates can i ask you about culture because you've worked at some of the most i would argue probably the most impactful company in the ever in the tech sector or it's arguably anyway i mean which is ibm you were there for a long time salesforce very disruptive yeah organization as well and then obviously google most recently let's maybe start with ibm what did you the culture of IBM what lessons did you take from that experience that you took forward into your other companies I think the training I received in IBM um and working with brilliant people and dealing with you know IBM was and is and was a massive company and dealing with all sorts of different companies and sizes of companies and countries and complexities it was an incredible experience and worked and worked with some some great people so you know learned a lot it was foundationally very very good um for me and i loved the company salesforce great company very very sales and marketing oriented enormous fun super ambitious just you know a real fun very sales oriented company google has an amazing culture in that it's got this incredible learning culture and i keep talking i know i keep mentioning the word learning but um i'm going to movies Gareth so I don't know if you've seen the movie Avatar I have indeed I love that that movie I haven't seen the second one but I've seen the first one the first one's all you need and there's a saying Moat who is the heroine's mother says to the hero she says it is hard to fill a cup that is already full and I would say in Google no one's cup is near full and what I mean by that is everyone is keen to learn everyone is keen to help everyone understands that you fail fast you learn you move on and I think it's quite a unique precious culture you know it's really important and and you you kind of you get used to it you know you always sort of take it for granted until maybe you're meeting with other companies as I do and and you think you know and they ask you what's the secret of the google culture what is google's culture and you know it's explaining it to them yeah i mean some of the most disruptive i should call it software applications ever uh have come obviously from google but i've come from this this is legendary innovative culture they got there isn't it like things like google maps google pay you know it's come from project side projects of the staff have knocked up isn't it and in uh isn't it like one or two days a week they focus on their own project or something i don't know if they still do that but 20 project but is that i mean if you just have to talk about if you just have to talk about ai i mean you know it's important to remember that that sundar pichai our ceo announced that we were were an ai first company back in 2016 nobody was really talking about ai in the mainstream then were they they weren't no you know and we've got a long history of bringing ai innovation to enterprises and to consumers.

16:29We embed them into every element of cloud. We embed them into YouTube, search, which is used by billions of people. The culture of Google to stay on the cutting edge of things. Maybe this is a good segue into AI, because I was going to ask you about this anyway, Ellen. How does the rise of AI, How do you think that impacts your role at Google Cloud? I suspect it will accelerate the move to cloud even more than it's, it'll speed it up because, you know, you can't really take advantage of AI or gen AI unless you're in the cloud. So I think it will accelerate companies' digital transformation plans.

17:16I think that is true. That is true. I think we will, you know, we're embedding, as I said, AI into all our products and have done. We will be helping and are starting to help even and helping customers make the most of AI and Gen AI. We're helping customers such as L 'Oreal. We're helping all sorts of customers. I mean, more than half of the Gen.AI startups headquartered in the UK use Google Cloud. So it's almost the sky's the limit, Gareth, in terms of the use cases and the problems and the opportunities that we discuss with customers and how AI and Gen.AI can help them. So it's an incredibly exciting time.

18:07Yeah, I can imagine. How excited or fearful are you, Helen? Do you think we're going to have loads of people out of work replaced by AI or how do you see it? What's your take on that? So, you know, if you look at, you know, there's a big dearth of digital skills in the UK market now. So there's massive, massive opportunity for jobs in that area, in this area now. I see that jobs evolve and they have done forever, right? And they will continue to evolve. I think the thing I would say is AI won't take your job, but someone who understands how to use AI may take your job if you don't. I've heard that line.

18:48That is absolutely spot on, really, isn't it? That's exactly what it is. It's such an enormous advantage for a person, you know, a reason, you know, an intelligent person who's good at their job. You put an AI layer on top of it and they become infinitely more productive. is such a force, isn't it, to be reckoned with. So maybe moving the emphasis back to Google Cloud then. So can you talk us through what problems Google Cloud are trying to solve right now? Yeah. So, I mean, Google is here. And by the way, Google is 25 years old this year. So happy birthday to us. So Google is here to make information universally accessible to all.

19:28And that was our mission that was laid out 25 years ago. We have a similar mission here in Google Cloud, but for businesses. So our goal really is to create a cloud where users can operate as simply as possible. That enables them to drive insights and value for their business, Gareth. So, you know, the overall proposition and mission of Google Cloud is simple. It's to accelerate the digital transformation of every organization. You know, we serve customers in more than 200 countries. We solve critical business challenges across industries from governments to gaming. And, you know, we're at a very exciting time.

20:05Last year, we welcomed Mandiant to the Google Cloud family. It's a recognized industry leader. And Mandiant is what Mandiant is doing is adding critical capabilities to complement our existing Google Cloud security portfolio. So and our aim is to offer an end to end security solution for our customers. And then we had next London earlier this month in Tobacco Dock. and we celebrated the fact that over 40 of the FTSE 100 companies are Google Cloud customers. Oh, wow. Yeah, and as I think I mentioned before, more than half of the Gen AI startups headquartered in the UK are Google Cloud customers.

20:43We also announced a really exciting partnership with the likes of BT, Gymshark, Unilever, Formula E, who are taking the next step on their AI journey with us and using our tools and services. So really exciting. Because obviously you entered a marketplace which was dominated by two juggernauts. And obviously Google is a juggernaut in its own right. But I suppose you've been chipping away at market share for some time now. Yeah. But I'm quite surprised by those numbers. You've made some enormous strides in the last couple of years, I suppose. What was the sort of stimulus for that then, do you think?

21:20Why are you taking so much market share off the other two cloud providers? Well, I think, you know, there are a few core areas that I'd say set Google Cloud apart and why organizations decide to work with us. You know, so firstly, we have a unified data and AI platform, which means customers can really easily unlock the potential of their data to innovate faster and at scale. And I'll give you an example. So earlier this year, OXA, which is an autonomous vehicle software developer, tapped into our AI and data analytics to test and validate its self-driving technology, supporting the global uptake of autonomous vehicles in different industries.

22:00We have a modern infrastructure cloud. So this helps businesses and governments build quickly and securely and cost effectively using AI optimized purpose built infrastructure. So on average, a Google Cloud data center is 1.5 times as energy efficient as a typical enterprise data center. And we have we have lofty ambitions. We aim to run our data centers and campuses worldwide on 24 by 7 carbon free energy by 2030. and we're on our way. Yeah. The other thing is we have AI-powered features in workspace that are really helping more than 3 billion users do their best work across devices and locations.

22:43I got very excited about this, Gareth, as you can imagine. We announced recently that AI can actually attend a meeting for you and take notes. That is fair. And I think we'd all love to have fewer meetings. One of my favourites. Yeah, absolutely. You could have someone to do podcasts for you, actually. There you go. There you go. Who knows? I just wanted to mention security because it's just so important that, you know, we've spent 25 years keeping people safe online. And we save, you know, our we're building and we've built a set of offerings that really can save customers and companies a lot of money.

23:25You know, it's very expensive and difficult to hire security talent. And we continue to invest to progress to our North Star, which is what we call invisible security. So making it very pervasive and simple for everybody. Security is such a big topic at the moment, isn't it? I mean, with everything going on in the world, I think it's something that we have to be so mindful of going forward. Can I ask you about Mandiant? I know it was an acquisition recently. Can you tell me a little bit about Mandiant, the driver for the acquisition and just a little bit about the product? Yeah, I mean, Mandiant, we really felt that Mandiant was a key acquisition for us to, as I said, to complete our security portfolio, our security offerings, so that we can get to our North Star, as I mentioned.

24:18Really, it's all about threat detection and actually helping customers to make sure that they are safe and that their data is safe. And Mandiant work with companies and organizations across the world. And their reputation is second to none. With a very few people, they can turn up and really, really give incredible advice and help companies get back on their feet. or ideally avoid any security breaches. Security has always been really important to Google, right? So yes, it's important now from a Google Cloud perspective, but it's always been critically important to Google for the last 25 years or more, yeah?

25:08Fantastic. What innovation are you most excited about at the moment then, Helen? What tech innovation are you most excited about that Google are working on right now? So I think it's interesting, isn't it? Because, you know, I'm really excited about the next step for cloud computing, if you like. You know, the market has been through at least three iterations since the start of my career with cloud. The first being, you know, it was about cost cutting and saving money. And then it was about agility and the ability to really respond to business, you know, tech responding to business needs. then it's been about unlocking the value of data to drive better and more timely decision making I think today it really what makes me excited is it's about simplicity and it's about driving constant innovation in data security and sustainability and making each of those as simple as possible I mean we can't talk about the future of cloud really without considering the impact of AI.

26:10We unveiled a new technology called Duet AI in May. It's basically introducing powerful features across workspace and showcasing developer features such as code and chat assistant in Google Cloud. And this year's Google Cloud Next, which was in San Francisco in August, we went a step further and we're expanding the capabilities, integrating it across a range of products and services throughout workspace and Google Cloud. So it's quite exciting what AI can do. I mean, I've already mentioned that it can attend meetings on your behalf, which is top of the list for me. It can write emails for you.

26:49It can draft content in documents with virtual assistant. It can enhance sound and video on Google Meet. It can contextualize data and provide quick summaries. It can summarize and classify threat information for security. we've got customers already realizing the benefit of this i mentioned l 'oreal earlier but it basically l 'oreal are using it to help them make better and faster decisions for their data yeah and they're reporting engineering productivity gains of a third yeah so not insignificant i think we are in an entirely new era of digital transformation fueled by gen ai this technology is already improving how businesses operate and how humans interact with one another it's changing the way doctors care for patients.

27:31It's changing the way people communicate and even the way workers are kept safe on the job. And, you know, this is just the beginning. Imagine how good it's going to be in, say, five years, let alone 10 years, you know. Can I just tell you what my dream is? OK, this is how sad I am. Right. So basically, when it comes to AI and all the things you have just described, I would be absolutely delighted if I could sort of, you know, my working day starts, I log in and I've got my digital assistant who basically has responded to my emails that came in while I was still sleeping. And also, you know, put in front of me what my day looks like and suggested when I have a break.

28:11And, you know, I just basically have this like curated, like I said, almost like human like assistant who can just govern my day. You know, you don't have to attend this meeting, I will attend for you and I'll just take notes so you take a break then but you need to be focused for this meeting because it's important that type of efficiency driven assistant you know what I mean that has to be surely that's going to be possible soon who knows it may not be very far away at all I think some of this also will be what do people want you know what's the you know do people want that and well I do well that's a start Gareth so who knows it may not be far away at all we're kind of already there in many respects I know that are like the summary thing that you touched upon is incredible isn't it if I go onto a website or a website's not a good example let's say a blog there's a big blog I got two minutes until my meeting and I want to read this blog and the fact that it can read it for you and summarize it and give you the top bits that is unlikely to be of interest.

29:18I mean, that's an incredible sort of innovation right there for someone who's in a rush, isn't it? So I think things like that are just really exciting. Almost there, Gareth. So look, I just wanted to go back to yourself then. So you're a very busy person, Helen. You've got lots going on, lots going on in your professional career, certainly. You're obviously leading a big team you've got a lot lots of conversations to have and things how do you stay two things how do you stay productive okay and on top of your game on a regular basis but how do you stay organized and how do you achieve balance in your life a number of things one is morning exercise so i like to run or swim if i possibly can staying in the moment so being present yeah sure um and a good night's sleep those are sort of three quite foundational things for me and fundamental things you know you need to start and end the day in the right way and make sure you're present throughout i think that's yeah no absolutely no that's brilliant advice and have interests outside of work as well i think it gives you more perspective and i think helps decision making we talked earlier on i asked you about inspired if you were inspired by anyone on the leadership front, but just in a more generic context, okay?

30:38You could have a coffee with anyone, let's say a half an hour meeting with anyone in the world. We can chuck in people who have passed on as well, if you like. So historical characters included. Who would you choose and why? Can I have two? You can indeed, Helen. You can definitely take two, as long as they're good ones. Okay. Well, you can decide. My first one would be Keanu Reeves. Wow. That's a good, interesting choice. I love the movie The Matrix and I would love to be his trinity. Oh, great movie, I have to say. It is a great movie. On a more serious note, I think Queen Elizabeth I, so I'm glad you've said I could have someone who had already passed.

31:19My view, she broke with tradition. Now, she didn't marry. She was a trailblazer and she ruled for 45 years. That's not bad. And that's a long career as a leader. so 100 yeah in a time when queens were not particularly prevalent anywhere so i mean that was an unbelievable feat certainly how she was uh you know how her life began you know what i mean because obviously she was just a disappointment because henry the eighth wanted a boy sorry and then for her to turn into this probably the greatest tudor of all arguably was as an incredible story isn't it so um so yeah not fantastic choices i really like those and i have to say the matrix one of the most impactful cultural films certainly that come out of the 90s i think just incredible across the board i'm really with you on that one by the way helen that's a brilliant choice looking back now and i know you've got a long way to go and um you know loads of exciting things ahead certainly you know it seems like it feels like we're in the dawn of ai and i'm sure you're going to be heavily involved in google strategy around around that certainly Google Cloud.

32:24But looking back on your career, what advice would you give to that person who joined IBM all those years ago when you started your career? Knowing what you know now, what would you say to that person, Helen? I would tell myself to make the most of every day, to not be afraid to make mistakes. Time speeds up as you get older, so fail fast and learn from it. I would also say treat others the way you would like to be treated. This is the most vital career advice I would ever give. This applies, I think, to both life and business equally. It's an important trait for everyone aiming for success. Every sector and profession depends on interpersonal relationships.

33:06And ambition should never come at the expense of empathy, respect and open communication. And finally, I say trust is foundational and a thread that should run through everything you do. um i'm sorry one not quite final this is final make time for charity work too it makes you feel grateful for what you have it's good to give back absolutely can i ask you about your charity work then and also as well i haven't really gone in on this great answers by the way but i just wanted to make sure we cover your work with the witt okay and also promoting diversity and inclusion in the tech industry and also any other sort of outside of work commitments actually you know things certainly charitable commitments what are you involved with helen so i'll start with that first um so i uh belong to a a charity called melon educate and melon educate was started by a guy called nile melon who was a property developer he is a property developer but he now builds or renovates schools in south african townships and every year he takes a group of 300 people and we go out to Cape Town and we spend a week in the township renovating we split across a couple of primary schools and we renovate those schools and it is one of the most uplifting experiences that sounds amazing you can you can have yeah so we're doing this so I'm um it's it's front of mind because actually we go in the middle of November we're going to go so that's a that's an incredible thing to do and to see the joy on the children's faces when they get to see their renovated school is just unbelievable we will put that on the show notes that sounds fantastic and how frequently do you it's annually and it stopped for a few years because of the pandemic but um yeah it's a fabulous it's a fabulous thing to to go and do oh wow that sounds like a fantastic venture.

35:10How long have you been involved with that? Since 2018. And WIT, Women in Telco and Technology, I've been involved with for the last at least 10 years. And we're a networking group that really is there to inspire other women to get into tech and to build their networks and to learn so we hold events about one of once every six weeks for for our our network we have a network about 2 000 people 2 000 women yeah okay well look i think that that's um that's amazing i mean i have one final question helen okay so it's just about we love a book i know you love a movie as well so we can chuck that in instead if you prefer can you please give us a you know a book or maybe an anecdote or a story or anything you've been inspired by recently, recommendation?

36:06So books, I'd say the first one is Leadership and Self-Deception by the Arbinger Institute. Important book for anyone. It offers a real accessible way of understanding how leaders can unpack their own self-deceptions and destructive patterns to improve the way they work and the way they lead. I think it really helps you put a mirror up to yourself which I think is is important the other one I another one I like is The Tipping Point Malcolm Gladwell's book oh yeah great book read that yeah looks at social dynamics that lead to rapid change like sudden drops in crime or mass consumer trends just find it really really interesting and then and then finally the book a book called Factfulness 10 Reasons We're Wrong About the World and Why Things Are Better Than You think so it's quite an uplifting book and that's by Hans Rosling and Ola Rosling and Anna Rosling okay I've not come across that one I'll check that out it's quite a powerful book I mean there's a tendency in today's world as we know to always focus on the doom and gloom um but this book talks about how everything isn't quite as bad as we think and actually we're on a you know we're really on an improving trajectory in terms of people's lives I'd say so yeah of course You compare the way the world is now to what I know there's a lot of problems, but I mean, you look back 50 years, I mean, there was so many more people in poverty as a percentage of global population.