1578 – The Power of Words with The Creative Copywriter’s Konrad Sanders

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0:57with us right now conrad sanders conrad you are the founder and ceo of the creative copywriter you're found on the web at creative-copywriter.net conrad thank you so much for joining us thanks for having me josh i'm happy to be representing the brits today on your podcast Well, the Brits come very well represented on this show, I'd say. I think we've got at least one a week, if I'm guessing correctly. So happy to have you. And I should point out that this is something you've been doing for quite a while. You've been a copywriter. And then, of course, you know, the creative copywriter has been around for over 13 years.

1:40So congratulations on your longevity in the space. thank you I've stuck with it I've got quite a quite an interesting story I'm sure I'll share some of it with you today yeah and you've also you've worked with some pretty substantial clients do you mind do it let's let's do a little name dropping just you know kind of before we get into it just so folks understand your um you know kind of your position and you know and who has historically trusted you for for this sort of work sure should I give you the quick spiel yeah I'll what we do as an agency we love quick spiels yes so what we do as an agency is we blend the science of data-driven content strategy and psychology with the art of creative copywriting basically to help brands get their words right at every step of the customer journey and sell more stuff essentially so in terms of name dropping yeah we work with some quite big sexy brands like TikTok, Adidas, Mercedes-Benz, Panasonic, Thomson Reuters, recently Acom as well.

2:45So lots of kind of global brands, but our bread and butter is kind of helping startups and scale up sort of grow predictable revenue and scale up and helping them on that journey using, you know, the power of words to do so. Yeah. And do you mind sharing like, you know, what does a company, you don't have to share specifics or whatever, but, you know, a company like TikTok, what are their copywriting needs? Well, TikTok actually came to us for quite a fun project whereby they were looking, this was years ago, looking to get more open rates on some of their videos. So they were trying to like promote certain videos to get them out there.

3:33And we were essentially writing funny memes to go with these videos to get people clicking essentially so you know big brands like TikTok also want people clicking they also want to you know at the time that they were trying to target a slightly older demographic because it started really with just teenagers and so looking to kind of grow into a new space new market new audience and grab the attention of of prospects that hadn't heard about TikTok weren't using TikTok so grab their attention you know get them clicking so it's brand awareness conversion all the things that we usually do and and you know you need words for that you need creative copy and in order to you know break through and the world is just saturated full of content saturation these days you know and everyone's wrestling for our attention wrestling for eyeballs so the more creative you can be with your copy the more you can pierce through the noise, you know, the better you do, the more you will achieve your marketing and sales goals.

4:38Yeah. And Conrad, today particularly, can you talk about maybe the importance or nuance of great copywriting today versus maybe what may have been like you could get away with, say, 10 years ago? What sensitivities do we need to have today, just kind of given where consumers brains are? I think it's a really interesting question, first of all. So thanks for asking it, Josh. I think that the interesting thing about copywriting is that a large, largely, or a large part of it hasn't changed, right? So you can look back at really great copy newspaper ads from 100 years ago um and and much of the best practices still apply because you know the human brain hasn't really evolved since then right essential psychology emotions the triggers the things that uh push us to action you know social proof the fact that we want to be liked the fact that we want to um you know we want to take shortcuts to to make purchasing decisions All of these things are still pretty much the same.

5:55And so a lot of the characteristics and qualities and best practices of copy literally from, you know, newspaper ads from 100 years ago still apply today to the digital world. but naturally I think the context is changing a lot you know the context platforms algorithms and over the last 10 years um I think that trends come and go people become things become maybe more saturated more quickly you know we we've grown kind of more immune to certain messaging that perhaps were working 10-15 years ago you know and and things one one thing you always want to avoid with copy with great copy is cliches so cliches don't work right if you read like something you read something that you feel like you've read a million times before your eyes will glaze over it won't grab you right and that's what you want to do it won't grab and grip your your audience's attention but the thing about a cliche is that there's a certain point whereby it's probably a nice you know common fun phrase yeah right there's a tip a tipping point when it becomes overused so naturally cliches will also come and go right naturally things that we've been saying in copy I remember when I was you know starting out and and learning the best practices of copy with you know the word discover for example was a copywriting power word there are a list of power words and we were taught if you weave these into your copy they'll work right because they'll just they're proven to work but again if everyone's been taught that and everyone's using right you know overusing it and not being creative and and and and differentiating then it becomes cliched and it just it doesn't have the desired effect so I think that a lot of the kind of power words and more like direct response copywriting from 10, 15 years ago is just not as powerful these days.

7:54You know, you come across like a car salesman and it's not what you want to do. Right. It's much more important to kind of use some of that psychology. Right. Like social proof, sense of urgency, et cetera, in a more subtle way and then balance it with all the other ingredients that are needed, such as getting the brand right, being, you know, zigging while the industry zagged, having that creative spark, taking an outside-in approach, so data-led copy, like actually understanding what your customers want. And I would, when answering this question, I probably have to refer to a framework I developed called the 13 lenses, which are basically 13 different ingredients in the secret source of copy and content that does what you need to do which is you know convince convert compel nurture etc because I mentioned a few categories there and they're actually lenses in our framework the creative spark lens the brand lens the action lens so it's about balance I'd say these days about getting the balance right understanding these changing platforms and the context and the fact that you know algorithms change you need to understand them social platforms change how people use them change.

9:08So you need to adapt and also avoiding cliches and keeping your finger on the pulse of what is cliched and what does come across as just generic sales copy or generic content. Yeah, I, uh, it's all, all, all copywriting works until it doesn't work, uh, or cliches work until they don't work. And, you know, it's kind of that, um, you know, paying attention to trends And, you know, sometimes I think it's easy to blame marketers for ruining everything, right? Because, oh, good idea. And then everyone bum rushes, you know, to get in on that. But yeah, I tell you, and I think there was a point. And I think, you know, like pandemic related cliches.

9:53If I see a pandemic related cliche today, it's like nails on a blackboard. Yeah, because some of that stuff got overused real too quick. And I'm not even a repeat. I think anyone listening to our conversation right now, you know what all those cliches are. Yeah, don't do those. It really did. And at the time, we were kind of running these sessions on communicating in a crisis, helping our clients and offering out free workshops for other businesses. And yeah, that's something that we were helping people to swerve and avoid is just sounding like a walking, talking cliche. and I'll tell you I'll give you a tip right I'll give our your listeners a tip on how to avoid that we call it the real talk lens and it's about being human right it might it might seem obvious but it often isn't especially b2b marketers like are so guilty of filling their their content a copy full of jargon and cliches and just things they think they should be saying because it's professional that the litmus test is do you talk like that at home right or do you talk like that at the pub if not there might be a problem make it more human make it more real make it more conversational right don't use these kind of overused words jargon cliches that are often quite meaningless you know in the b2b world using the word solution for example what does that really mean like is there a better way to say what you actually mean in a more human real conversational way because in the end of the day the reason why podcasts work well is because people love conversations that we're social creatures so our brains are kind of hardwired to to to be engaged by conversation um and that's what you want your copy to to be like and and again back to old copywriting techniques which did work back in the newspaper ads conversational copy worked back then and it does now.

11:54You know, obviously another one, and this is actually your pinned tweet on Twitter is, you know, here's a copywriting tip. Sell a good night's sleep, not the mattress. Can you share just a little bit about it? Because I think that that's one of the easiest, I would assume this is a lens, what you're going to be talking about, but this is one of the easiest lenses, I think, to look at our own copywriting. And are you talking about features or are you talking about the consumers, what their gap is, what they want, what's in it for them, what's the result that they're after? But this one is so easy, I think on your first drafts of like what you wanna say on a page.

12:36Okay, fine. It's like, could you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, sure. Yeah, it's a great quote. I'm glad you brought it up. It probably falls into two lenses in a way, but we've got one called the value lens and it's exactly about that it's about painting a picture of you know the value that you're truly going to provide your your audience um so possibly one of the age-old copyright techniques as you mentioned is is benefits not features or or i say benefits and features right marry them together whenever you're talking about a feature why why should they care it's a great question to ask in marketing why should they give a crap you know why what's the real reason why have you you know why have your products development team or you know or service development team included that feature there's a reason for it and and ask yourself what is that core end benefit how is it really going to change the life of that target prospect or the the life of their business um and and that's the value lens um yeah like you said sell a good night's sleep not the mattress and i want to add a throw an extra lens in there because we're talking all about lenses um one of our lenses is called the outside in lens and this is all about taking a data-led approach and not just basing your marketing content and copy on assumptions which so many marketers again are guilty of you know i i think i know what will work this this campaign messaging even businesses are built on assumptions and they often fail so what i'm trying to gear people towards our clients and we've done it right from the offset from the way we built our agency is gathering insights understanding truly what your audience are looking for so basing your decisions on demand and data rather than assumptions so by that i mean what we offer as an agency is surveying right and or buyer interviews with our the customers of our clients so talking to them and in the b2b world when it's high consideration decision we would usually dive into these five areas of buying insight so what are their triggers and pain points what are their desired benefits that's number two number three what are their perceived barriers what are their objections why might they not want to buy or purchase your product or service number four is comparison factors what are they using to compare your offering with other competitors on the market and number five is the buyer's journey so who and what do they trust during that buying cycle and if you can gather that that data it's so so powerful right so we would do buyer interviews understand um and transcribe those interviews then or pull out quotes and organize them according to those areas of buying insight and then really cool thing or at least i think it's cool we would highlight what we call voice of customer data so the words and phrases that those buyers are using to describe their pain points to describe their desires etc and then what you can then do is weave that into your copy and content and if we come back to your initial question which was about you know benefits how do we know what benefits they're actually looking for we know because we've done the research right and we've we've extracted those insights because then if you're writing you know a landing page for example where the idea is to convert then and there and you're listing out benefits the one that is that should go at the top is the one that's you know they've expressed is the most important benefit to them how do you describe that benefit with the actual language that they've used in that interview or that survey you're much more likely to increase conversion rates if you're you know literally describing things in the way that your buyers describe it but at the same time obviously you need to balance that with your own brand voice.

16:26And that's where the brand lens comes in. Conrad, today, who do you work with at Creative Copywriter? Like, let me ask you a different way too. Of all those who are listening, who should be reaching out and how could you potentially work together? Yeah, great question. I mean, look, we are sector agnostic, right? Our niche is words. that's what we're very very good at we've got our framework research you know strategy and words we do work with you know some as I mentioned some big global brands if you're going to twist my arm and say who could we help most we're doing a ton of work with tech and SaaS you know b2b tech and SaaS startups and scale-ups because usually they need us the most right they're born from the brains of techie people who aren't this got great products great technology not usually the best at distilling that technology down into a few words that resonates with someone in a few seconds that's what you need to do and also content marketing is usually necessary because you need the education piece and the brand awareness and nurturing piece in order to funnel people towards your offering so um b2b uh tech and sas startups and scale-ups come and speak to me you We can really, really help you grow predictable revenue by getting your words right at every step of the customer journey.

17:54Yeah. And on your website, I have to point out, your blog is really good. Let me make sure that I've shared this website to our friend that's listening to our podcast right now. Really simple. Click around, find where it says show notes or description, click on that little button. And we've got a direct link to creative-copywriter.net. uh go to the blog um there's just you have some really great long-form content here um if you really want to dive into this conrad you've put together some just some really really great content and aside from the blog what else would you encourage people to do next in in the uh you know now that they've heard our conversation well i appreciate that first of all um you know it's a testament to our skills we practice what we preach so I'm glad you you like the blog I mean following me or connecting with me on LinkedIn I'm quite vocal on LinkedIn I give a lot of value copywriting content strategy tips share my agency story as well so Conrad Sanders you can find me on LinkedIn you know and if you want to learn more about those lenses I can just send you a link to a free ebook that we offer which dives into the whole methodology and every every lens and and and how you can get those ingredients balanced.

19:14Yeah, yeah, by all means. And is that a link that you'll give to me and we'll put that, you can only find it in the show description. So you're gonna have to figure out that show notes button in your podcast player to our good friend that's listening. Conrad Sanders, again, founder, CEO of Creative Copywriter, the Creative Copywriter. Again, your website, creative-copywriter.net. We've got a link to the free ebook as well. I would also recommend to our friend listening, follow Conrad on LinkedIn, follow Conrad on Twitter. Your LinkedIn and Twitter game is really good. Your posts are just exceptionally high quality stuff.

19:56So Conrad, it's been a joy having you. Again, your website one last time, creative-copywriter.net. Conrad Sanders, founder, CEO. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks, Josh. It's been lots of fun.

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