1663 – Patience With Organic Orders with Antonella Pisani

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0:58with us right now antonella pisani antonella you are the ceo and founder at ifull media that's e-y-e fullmedia.com we've got the link in our show notes but antonella it's great to have you here thank you so much for having me this morning josh good to meet you as well yes Congratulations on your success. Some nice rankings in the Inc. 5000s list. So congrats on that. And I'm excited to kind of pick your brain and hear, you know, some of your observations in marketing, because I know marketing is one of those fields that's constantly, there's principles that are tried and true. But then there's the tactics, I think, that sometimes can evolve quite a bit based on, you know, how the market is responding, what's been maybe overplayed in the past, you know, and obviously for this show, too, very keenly interested to hear some of, you know, your impact in the world as well.

1:57So give us maybe an overview of the work that Eiffel Media does. Sure. So we primarily focus on digital marketing and digital strategy for mid-market companies. I would say between that$10 and$200 million range is our sweet spot, but we've worked with multi-billion dollar firms and we've worked with companies that are a bit smaller. A lot of the foundational channels, paid search, SEO, paid social, copywriting, and then helping companies and manufacturers who really want to scale their dot-com presence and sell more directly, as well as selling more through marketplaces and different channels like that.

2:33About half B2C, half B2B. And then we work with a number of private equity folks as well, helping them through due diligence process. You have been in this space for a while. I'm sure you've observed some trends. What are some of the trends that you're interested in or you would recommend to other business leaders to keep an eye on over the next year or two? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think for me, I've never been a big fan of shiny objects. I've always been just keeping it very pragmatic. And, you know, it's interesting through the last few years, a lot of companies grew through brute force just during COVID and really didn't keep an eye on as many fundamentals.

3:15And then now as things slow down a little bit, they're really having to understand their businesses. And so, you know, some of the things we're always still talking to companies about just keeping that focus on reducing that cost of acquisition. I think a lot of companies really like the instant gratification of the paid channels, so paid search, paid social. You can drive a lot of traffic really quickly, but they fail to invest as much in things like SEO that you have to be patient. It takes a little bit longer to get those organic orders in, but those are the types of things that really reduce your cost of acquisition over time.

3:53And so having to balance out kind of that instant gratification with some of the delayed gratification, knowing that it's the right thing for the health of the business. You know, some of the things we're talking to companies about still is just a lot of the basics, really understanding lifetime value, getting into that. We're big fans of talking to folks about net promoter score, making sure that they're really understanding like how happy their clients are. And if they're not happy, what's going on that's driving that and trying to get in front of it. So for me, you know, there's a lot of people, a lot of things people are talking about, right?

4:30Whether it's the new social media platform or whatever. But I think for business owners, it's really maintaining an eye on all those fundamental things that indicate whether your business is healthy. And, you know, trying to balance out where you're investing marketing money to make sure that you're building a solid foundation for the future. Yeah. Do you find, so if you have a client, I'm particularly interested in the kind of the B2B world, certainly agency growth. Is there, I mean, any surprises or any observations around maybe strategy that you would say, I'm not sure I would do that a whole lot.

5:14Instead, I'd say if you're in B2B and or let's say you're an agency or service provider, you're probably going to want to do more of X, like any general prescriptions. Yeah, I mean, on the agency side, we tend to just do some white label type work. So it's a little bit different than helping them grow on the B2B side. I think there's still a real big focus on content creation and thought leadership. Just being out there. I think that, you know, it's something we've been talking about a lot. There's so much just email and some of those channels that I think have gotten really, really saturated and so to stand out.

5:50But, you know, it's the same types of things of really thinking about lifetime value and customer satisfaction. I think we work with a lot of B2B, especially like SaaS businesses, and they've gone from that brute force to that inside selling and now figuring out, OK, how do they invest in marketing and scale? really thinking about their messaging. You know, I think there's so many, there's some unique companies out there, but there's also a lot of competition among software and, you know, really nailing that messaging. We talked a lot about like empathy and messaging big fans of like story brand and things like that and putting the customer kind of let them be the hero.

6:30So, I mean, those are the things we really are leaning into today and trying to stay away from some of the generic, you know, just being out there. Yeah, facts and figures, here's what makes us awesome instead. So what you're talking about in messaging, can you maybe kind of dive a little bit more into that when you're talking about StoryBrand and making your client or customer the center of the story? Yeah, so StoryBrand is a framework. We ran across it for the first time, I think, several years ago. And it's really about that customer journey and helping them really feel empowered and that you're there to kind of lift them up and help solve their problems.

7:15And you're empathizing with the problems that they have. And, you know, one early example, we had worked with a company that sold software for like Chromebooks for students. And there, it's like trying to empathize with the teacher and the principal and your job's really hard and you you know you're really focused on teaching and so we're here to help you focus on those things that really matter to you by alleviating and solving that problem right versus like hey here's our feature and benefits list and so it's it's kind of guiding them down a path of here's what can happen and and success and here's what failure looks like um does that distinction make sense of yeah oh yeah for sure it's really it's the customer journey i mean that's that's the stuff that we're whether it's b2b or b2c um but a lot of times just really stepping back thinking about like what are those problems that person's trying to solve but also like what are they feeling right and and how do you tap into that versus just saying hey we offer these features and benefits because so many companies lean into that, that it's tough to discern which solution is going to be better if that's all you're selling on.

8:29That's kind of what we're seeing on that B2B side. Yeah. Antonella is kind of just looking at your content on social. And one article that you wrote recently for Harvard Business Review is actually quite good. It's what new leaders shouldn't do. I don't know if you recall maybe some of the tips you shared there. But, you know, there's five here. And what I'd like to do is maybe just kind of list these five really quick and then just have you dive into whatever you're most passionate about on this topic. So number one is don't let your ego win. Number two, don't do everything yourself. Three, don't impose your management style.

9:08Four, don't avoid giving negative feedback. Curious about that one. And number five, don't vent to your direct reports. uh by the way some really great tips in this article um we'll have that linked up as well um but maybe share maybe uh your your personal insights on any of those things that that i just brought up yeah sure thanks for uh for surfacing that it's funny because i'm a super positive individual and the original title was like things you should do and you know i think the things you shouldn't do i get some more clicks and so they flip the title around a little bit i mean but Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, my career was really on the client side.

9:52And so I had the opportunity to manage some pretty large teams. And a lot of times it was more junior leaders or first time leaders. And you just see these things over and over again. You know, I think the one that I've run across a lot and one that I learned early on not to do is like, go hire people smarter than you. Right. As many as you can possibly find that join your team. You know, I think that a lot of times, you know, sometimes leaders will feel threatened by having people that they perceive to be smarter than them. And they'll feel like, oh, this person wants to take my job. And for me, I always saw it as like, I want them to take my job so I can go do the next bigger job.

10:33Exactly. Yeah. Take all my jobs, please. Yes, take it off of my plate and let me, you know, let me continue to grow in the company and grow in responsibility by showing that I can build these teams. And, you know, a lot of times the mentality was like, how do I make myself obsolete, right? By hiring people that can run circles around me in their distinctive areas. And, you know, I think that sometimes with younger, less experienced leaders, it's just, it's this like threatening feeling or a feeling of inadequacy. I mean, I think there's so many people that feel or struggle with like imposter syndrome.

11:09And, you know, I think that that can make it worse sometimes for folks. But to me, it's like, go arm yourself with the smartest freaking people you can possibly find. Oh, my gosh. So, you know, I think that's a big one. I think the management style is a really interesting one. I went through like a year-long leadership course recently, and this was something we focused on a lot. And it's something I've thought about within my own company. You know, as I look at myself, there's certain types of leaders I like to manage. And I know how I like to be managed, but it's really interesting when you have a mix of styles where you've got a leader who maybe has a very direct style, and then they've got direct reports that really need a lot of that kind of personal connection and, you know, figuring out how to adapt to different types of people.

12:01I think a lot of times less experienced leaders are like, no, this is my way and this is how I lead. But really the best service you can offer to your people is to understand how they want to be led and guide them so that you're getting the results that you want. I think that's an interesting one. You mentioned the negative feedback. You know, we have a lot of really, really, really people. That I'm curious about. Yeah. I mean, I think we have a lot of really, really nice people on our team, right? And I think that sometimes it's, they're sensitive to sharing negative feedback. And, you know, that's really how we develop and especially as adults, right?

12:43Like we don't have a parent telling us what to go do theoretically, right? And so how you evolve as a person and as a leader is coming from a lot of times like that person that's responsible for mentoring you and growing you in your career. And a lot of times like people will kind of be a little bit too soft in terms of delivering feedback. And then the person doesn't really know what the expectations are. And then you just kind of end up in this little bit of like this vicious cycle, right? Where the manager is like, well, I'm not getting what I need, but they don't want to give that direct feedback.

13:17They feel like maybe they need to coddle or something like that because they've got, you know, nice people around them or they don't want to hurt some feelings. But I think for me, like from a personal interest side, I think it's been a lot of the, the ego, that piece of it. And I'm trying to remember what was the second one. And then the last one, the venting to direct reports. I mean, I think that people just, people become very friendly with each other and like, I'm close to a lot of people on the team. And I think that, you know, I've certainly seen it where someone will vent to their direct report to the direct report to one of their peers.

13:58And that's not what leadership is, right? I think leadership is pushed through and you know in any company in any situation like I worked in a lot of turnarounds

14:12what's your doggie's name my dog is Riley and he's Riley I think Riley's on your on your website too he is I just threw it on noise cancellation mode sorry about that um not a worry hey listen Riley's welcome to chime in he has very very strong feelings yeah he's got very strong feelings is about not venting the direct reports. I believe Riley's title, according to your website, is chief security officer. So, hey, you know, when Riley needs to snap into action, I think we need to just respect his face there. He's protecting me from squirrels right now, I think. But yeah, so I think it's just, I think it's, you know, you can be, you can have great relationships with folks.

14:59And I think the path I was going down is, you know i've worked in a lot of turnaround situations whether it was jc penny fossil guitar center and those can be tough environments to work in and people feel the need to maybe like share how they're feeling but do it with do with your boss if you have to but preferably take it outside of the company right talk to your friends talk to talk to an executive coach find find a good outlet for it, but doing that with direct reports is just not a good place. You know, as I think about, you know, like, and I'm sure that we as leaders have also all, you know, kind of been the recipients of a gripe session or, you know, one of our managers that need to vent about something.

15:45And I always respect, you know, it's, I want to validate their emotion. But I just really respect when they say, now, thank you for letting me vent. Here are my ideas, you know, some possible ideas to solve this. You know, I've been thinking about this. I want to be solution focused. You know, I have great respect for people that are able to process that maybe a little bit before. Like, for example, I think for me, I feel like I if I didn't do at least a little bit of my own internal work around that issue before presenting that conversation, I feel like that would be lazy of me to just say, well, I haven't even bothered thought about it.

16:27I'm not going to think about it. You tell me what to do here. I don't know that that, like, I wouldn't do that. And that's, I think, part of maybe what you're talking about here. Yeah, for sure. I think it's the, you know, one of the things I've read up on Fairmount this last year was just the empowerment dynamic, the drama triangle, and that's kind of the victim mode and the, hey, boss, come rescue me. And that's, you know, that's not what we want from leaders. You want what you said, right? It's okay. Like people are going to have emotions and be upset about something, but Hey, here's how I think we should solve it.

17:01Obviously if it's something really big and material and, you know, let's say there was, we've, we've been really, really fortunate with the quality of our clients and the quality of people on the other side that we partner with. But let's say someone's being like abusive or malicious. Like that's not venting. That's, that's highlighting a real problem. Maybe that's happening. Um, that's different, but I think, you know, being that solution oriented, not looking for someone to just come in and swoop in and rescue you. And, um, for sure. I mean, this is some of the stuff that we're doing that, that I think is really interesting is bringing a lot of these leadership topics to everyone at the agency, regardless of whether they're a manager level person or a VP, is trying to expose our team to a lot of these types of topics and a lot of these discussions that so many companies reserve like executive coaching and leadership for VPs and SVPs.

17:59We're trying to really develop everyone at the company. Yeah. Your website, iFull Media, who should be reaching out and what would you recommend that they do? Yeah, I mean, I'd love to hear from any of your listeners. We primarily work with, I would say, directors of marketing, VP of marketing, CMOs, we work with a lot of private equity folks, and then some CEOs as well, obviously, depending on the size of the company. Um, you know, we, much like we talked about in the beginning, like definitely a pragmatic approach. Like we're not here to build a portfolio for ourselves. We like to help businesses grow and push through some of the challenges that they have.

18:37Um, we have a contact form or email on there, or folks are free to reach out to me on LinkedIn as well. Yeah. Again, I full media that's E Y E F U L media.com. And again, Antonella, it's been great having you here. Antonella Pisani, CEO and founder at Eiffel Media. Antonella, it's been great having you. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks so much, Josh. Appreciate it.

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