1718 – Intellectual Property Protection with Esqgo’s Mario Simonyan

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0:58with us right now mario simonian mario you are an intellectual property law attorney and the founder of esco esco is found on the web at esco.com that's e s q g o.com mario thank you so much for joining us absolutely josh it's a pleasure all right give us an overview of your work with ESCO? Sure. So I'm the founding attorney here at ESCO and we represent third-party Amazon seller brands, right? So that's anyone selling on Amazon. Most people that buy from Amazon, they may not realize it, but probably 70, 80 % of the time they're buying from Amazon third-party sellers, right? That may be people like me and you or your neighbor.

1:41So we represent them when they get into trouble with the marketplace such as Amazon, or they have issues with competitors, Right. Once you get really successful on Amazon, things get very competitive and can sometimes turn a bit nasty. So that's why we're there to help out these third party brands. I'm sure you get plenty of 911 calls, but do you also work with clients proactively so that they can protect their brand and help avoid future problems? Absolutely. Absolutely. So the second practice area that we have is IP. So trademarks, copyrights, patents, because it's all about having that, especially now with Amazon.

2:20And I think all of just e-commerce getting more competitive, it's imperative that you have your trademarks, copyrights and patents in place. So we do also help with that. Yeah. What does that work usually look like? I mean, so let's say that someone like they recently just maybe they sourced some product overseas right now. They seem to be making some good traction with that product. They're kind of looking at the competitive environment and they kind of see a path where, you know, this is probably going to work out pretty well for them. What work might they or should they be doing with you? Like what is particularly I'm thinking of like the stuff that they can be doing proactively ahead of time so that they can be very smart if they're planning for, you know, global domination with their product.

3:05Yeah. So very good question. So initially it starts from the beginning, like before you even have a website, before you even have a brand name, right? What you want to do is make sure you've got an IP attorney or a trademark on your roster, on your list of sort of advisors, right? And from there, you're looking to come up with brand names. Any brand name you come up with, you want to have the IP attorney or the trademark attorney run a clearance search just to make sure, Josh, that no one else is using that name, that brand name, right? The worst case scenario you want to get into is building a foundation on of your brand name and then realizing a year later once you're ultra successful or the brand's ultra successful that you know what actually josh in texas has this and he's been using it before me now i need to rebrand so all that packaging all that material all that marketing down the drain now you need to rebrand so it starts with the trademark and then after that you're looking at what products do you have can you protect your product or your idea with some sort of patent, some sort of copyright or trademark.

4:07So that would be the second step. Right. But my advice is talk to talk to an IP attorney. If you like, I've got an interesting story of one of those where I wish I knew back then what I know now. But I had sort of funny, but not funny story. So I used to be an Amazon seller myself, too. I started selling in while I was in my second year of law school. And my first product that I brought in from China, private label where it's got my brand name on it. Josh, it was a three-in-one avocado slicer, pitter, what else? Cutter, right? Sold out within two, three days. I remember sitting in my law school class and I'm just constantly refreshing my Amazon Seller Central account to see what the sales are.

4:52And I remember the second or third day I'm looking at the sales and I'm thinking, And I'm very confident I made more money right now than my professors standing in front of me. So that happens. And I get a little bit too cocky, a little bit too confident. And at the time here in L.A., the city of L.A., or was it the county? One of those. They were giving out reimbursements for anyone replacing their lawn with artificial turf. I don't know if you guys have that. But I thought, you know what? This is a great opportunity. I already know how to import from China and all that. Let me bring in a few rolls of artificial grass.

5:33So I bring in four or five big, large rolls of artificial turf, and it's just sitting there in my driveway. I realized I can't sell this on Amazon. So I was looking at Craigslist that sort of listed on there. I was able to sell one, but it was such a big pain. I had to hire a few people to help me move it and deliver it to the guy who purchased it. At the end, I don't even think I made any money off of it, right? So these remaining rolls of grass are just sitting in my driveway for a couple of months. One morning, I'm having coffee, just looking at this, just in maybe regret, you know, just what was I thinking doing this?

6:15And then I had the idea, let me cut this up and make it into doormats. So I was like, you know what, that sounds like a good idea. First size I did was 18 by 24 inches and then 24 by 30. So I go down to Home Depot in Burbank, grab a few helpers, come up and I'm like, cut this up. And they're like, are you crazy? So we ended up cutting it. I had poly bags from Uline that I ordered and just some really crappy looking stickers for the packaging that I printed off a color printer. And we sold out. We couldn't keep those on the shelves, right? That's amazing. Yeah. But my mistake, again, if I knew now what I know back then, or if I knew back then what I know now, right, I would have protected with some sort of IP, whether it's a trade, a design patent or some sort of trade dress, right?

7:10But now the market's flooded. But that's one of those situations where it's like, you know what, don't be like me, you can be creative and most entrepreneurs are right. But talk to an IP attorney, because I think a quick call would have saved me a lot of money because back then I was in law school, second and 30 years of law school. So that would be my little story of what you should do. As for someone who's not an Amazon seller, what is, and I know that there are a lot of opportunities for things to go sideways when you are leveraging the platform, right? I know that Amazon, you know, is pretty buyer focused and centric.

7:48And unfortunately, I've heard stories of, you know, sellers just being in an unfortunate circumstance. And sometimes, you know, getting that support from Amazon can be challenging. Is that accurate? Or because I just know this, because I've had these conversations, I've just heard these horror stories. I'm like, no way. So it might be nice to have some folks in your corner should something, you know, at no fault of your own happen? Yeah. So your seller account can be suspended for really several reasons, right? But it boils down to it's either something that Amazon does. Amazon is sort of the culprit or it's one of your competitors or it's yourself or your team, your employees, right?

8:30For example, if you don't ship on time, if that's an issue, Amazon may suspend your account. Or it could be something that Amazon is where Amazon system sort of picks up on, but it's not accurate because at the end, Amazon is sort of the judge and jury in these cases, right? So it could be just Amazon's mistake where it's sort of a false flag where you didn't really do anything wrong, but somehow their algorithm or systems suspended you for no reason. Or the third category is it could be one of your competitors who's playing dirty. For example, if you were a competitor of mine and I was just a horrible person and said, you know what, Josh is a competitor of mine.

9:06We're both selling pens. I'm going to file a bogus trademark complaint on his account, right? And get the account suspended. Now to Amazon's credit, Amazon has gone better about suspending the product listing or the ASIN instead of the account. So they have gone better about that. But again, it's still an issue because things are always changing. It's always a cat and mouse game with Amazon and those that are playing dirty. Amazon's always coming up with new programs to sort of fight that. And again, those people, they do what they do. So it could be several, several reasons. But yeah, one of the reasons that our law firm exists is to help those third party sellers, because sometimes they feel lost.

9:47Amazon doesn't provide much guidance, right? So that's why we exist. What does the relationship typically look like with your clients? Like I just, you know, for someone that maybe has an engaged backup or has never engaged intellectual property law attorney, how do you typically work? So most of the cases that we have are flat fee, just because we've done this so many times, we know exactly how long it's going to take and what these issues are. But for those more unique or miscellaneous situations, we do charge hourly. Like one of the weirdest cases that we've probably gone that we may never get for the next 25 years is one of our clients, larger seller, had 80 ,000 UPC codes that their company had purchased because they were launching products as they were going along.

10:36Well, they're getting ready to launch 25 new products, Josh. And then they realize someone else is using our UPC codes. It's not us. It's some other random person. Turns out someone had found that list of UPCs that they had purchased and they weren't using it. So they started using it. So now our client has 25 products that they're launching. And we're talking about a couple million dollars. So we were able to reach out to Amazon's attorneys and have Amazon's attorneys help us fix all of this. But it was all over. It was worldwide marketplaces where people were using their UPC codes. We had them sort of give us about 25, 30 UPCs.

11:16And it's like, now go fix the rest. But now at least we can launch these products, right? So it could be just miscellaneous, very, very unique situations that we could also help with. And I think that's what's also interesting is with Amazon's attorneys, it's sometimes very collaborative, but other times it's very adversarial, right? And to their credit, they're pretty good about balancing those roles. Yeah. Mario, for our friend that's been listening to our conversation, they're an Amazon seller and they probably should start putting their dream team together, right? You know, because of those, you know, it's like, hopefully, you know, you're doing that ongoing SWOT analysis on your company.

11:58You know, you've got, yeah, Hopefully, that tea box is filled with, especially as an e-commerce, like you should try to come up with all of those risks, all of those potential threats out there and have a plan. Should, heaven forbid, you know, one of those things happen. But how do you typically, like for a friend that's been listening, what's kind of their next step? Maybe, you know, we recorded this episode and they're listening to it six months later, 12 months later. And, you know, they came across it because they were searching on the topic. And now they know they're ready for that next step.

12:29and maybe a conversation or something like that? Sure, absolutely. So they could always contact us and schedule a consultation through our website. That's esqgo.com or call our office 424-363-6233. But that's how they could contact us as far as what they should do on their own. Definitely do like an IP audit, right? Make sure your IP is all up to date. Make sure everything you need protected and want protected is protected with IP. And that's where usually I always say, talk to an IP attorney, because sometimes you may not even know that something can be protected with a trademark copyright or patent, right?

13:09You may sort of just brush that aside and say, well, I didn't make that many changes to this, right? To this product. It's not going to be able, I'm not going to be able to protect it. But IP attorneys may be able to show you the right way. From there, I would say on the Amazon side, again, Amazon has made some significant changes to their credit, right? But one of the things that they came up with is the account health rating that's available on your Seller Central account. Make sure that that's in a healthy range so you're not at risk of suspension. But the unfortunate sort of sad aspect of this is sometimes it could just be a competitor who's playing dirty.

13:47And we've seen some dirty tricks, Josh, where even bribe people on the inside of Amazon to suspend your account because you're such a large competitor. So and again, in those cases, we're here to help. So anything we can do, we'd love to. Love it. Mario Simenian, again, you're an intellectual property law attorney and you are the founder of ESCO. ESCO, again, the website is linked up to our friend that's listening in your podcast player. Just click on the little information button, click around, click, keep clicking. You'll find it. We've got a direct link, esqgo.com. You have some really great content on your website as well that I'd recommend if you're an Amazon seller, you go take a look at.

14:31So Simon, it's been great. And Mark, it's been great having you here today. I appreciate you so much for the conversation. Thank you so much, Josh, for the opportunity.

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