1907 – Scaling the Fractional CMO Model with Sara Nay

0:28Hey there, thoughtful listener. next six to eight months with no spam, no ads, and no sales. What I teach has worked for me for over 15 years and has helped me create eight figures in revenue for my own companies. Just head to upmyinfluence.com and watch my free class on how to create endless high-ticket sales appointments. Also, don't forget, the thoughtful entrepreneur is always looking for great guests. Go to upmyinfluence.com and click on podcast. I'd love to have you.

1:06With us right now, it's Sarah Nay. Sarah, you are the chief operating officer at Duct Tape Marketing, a brand that many of us are quite familiar with. And again, your website is ducttapemarketing.com. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me, Josh. I'm excited to be here. Truly a legacy brand in my world, getting on, I think, 14 years. Do you mind maybe just sharing a little bit about who Duct Tape Marketing is for someone who's not familiar and kind of what you and John do and your impact in the world? Of course, yeah. So we've actually, Duct Tape Marketing has been in business for about 30 years now.

1:46And I've been with the company myself for 13, coming up on almost 14 years. And over that whole entire time, we've always been focused on the small business world. So we absolutely love working with small businesses. And we really have two sides of our business. And so we are a strategic marketing agency where we'll come in and we'll create a marketing strategy for a business. And then we move into a long-term retainer, which we call the fractional CMO plus team retainer engagement, where we're basically staying very high level strategic for our clients, but we're also bringing our team to implement the marketing strategy.

2:20So in a way, we're becoming an outsourced marketing team based on strategy. So that's one side of our business. And over the last 15 years, we've also been certifying marketing consultants, coaches, small agencies, and our fractional CMO plus approach as well. And so that's a certification intensive where essentially we help people build, grow, scale marketing businesses based on the fractional CMO approach. As an advocate for small business and small business success, what would you say would be some of your, I'd say, your positions of advocacy before small businesses? Like, I don't know if there's anything that you hear or see in, you know, kind of that world, right?

3:04If you're thinking about, you know, marketing professionals, marketing agencies, marketing consultants, you know, folks that are doing that work, are there things that you see that you're like, yeah, you know, we're, we're hoping to protect this group from making bad decisions around X or Y, like anything immediately come to mind in that, you know, kind of zone? Yes. I mean, I think it's really challenging for small businesses to scale their marketing effectively because sometimes they decide to keep it in-house and marketing is evolving and changing so frequently that I think you need to have like a senior level person, but also multiple implementers.

3:35So a lot of small businesses, it's hard for them to justify that from a budget standpoint. And so they start outsourcing or partnering with agencies. And two key areas that I see a lot of small businesses being burned in terms of marketing is they work with an agency and they just dive straight into tactics without taking time to understand their business and their target market. And so maybe they're launching paid ads for this small business, but they haven't thought about target audience messaging, what happens after someone sees the ad, what's the landing page look like, what's the email series look like.

4:08And so really marketing can't be just tactic based. You need to have an overall strategy in place. And that's the number one way I've seen small businesses waste money over the years is just diving into a tactic because they've been told they need to do it or they see their competitors doing it or whatever, and then it doesn't work for them. And then they decide marketing doesn't work. Marketing works if you do it strategically. And so that's one area. And then there's a lot of people in the marketing space where I've heard a lot of horror stories with businesses working with agencies and they pay them all this money and they have no idea what they're doing or the results they're getting because they don't understand the metric side of marketing.

4:44So my advice to small businesses, investing in marketing and working with different partners, like there's a lot of really great agencies out there, but there's also agencies that are very tactic driven. And so my advice would be find an agency that is strategic on the front end, but also really pays attention to the metrics and reporting and help you understand that data as well. If someone is hiring a marketing professional or they're doing this in-house, or again, they're providing leadership in and around marketing, it might be tempting for anyone to say, yes, we do strategy. We're really big on strategy.

5:21How does one know that they're truly implementing a thoughtful plan as opposed to, yeah, no, you're just focusing on tactics without a broader plan? Are there ways to know this? Yeah, I've seen that over the years as well as a business. Like, oh yeah, we've done a strategy. And I'm like, great, show me it. And it's a list to tactics. And it's like, that can be a part of the strategy, but it takes a step, you know, beyond that. For us, you know, we start with a 30 to 45 day strategy engagement before we'll even talk about any implementation. And so I just think that dedicated time to do the research and to learn the business is really important.

5:56And so if someone's like, we'll launch your full Facebook funnel in 30 days, and you'll start getting results. It's like, maybe, but like, there's just, There's a lot of research. There's a lot of strategy that needs to go in to get to that point. And so, you know, when we're talking about strategy, we're looking at target market. We're looking at messaging to make sure you know who you're targeting, what message aligns with them. We're looking at the customer journey, which is one of our core concepts that we call the hourglass. So it's how can people get to know, like, trust, try, buy, repeat and refer from a business.

6:28And then we're going to say, OK, what content you should be producing on what channels? Like that's the last step of strategy. So it's really a research phase and a planning phase. But that whole customer journey piece is so important, I think, for businesses, because a lot of times people might think they need more leads, but maybe that's not what they need. Maybe they need the right leads or maybe they need to take care of people that are already in their space, already in the world with like different nurture campaigns. Or maybe they need to sell more to their existing client base, if that makes sense.

6:59And so that's why the strategy really helps us understand which areas of your marketing will help you get the most predictable growth fastest. Yeah, you know, and you and I were talking before we hit record and I thought, man, I didn't know that you were on my schedule for this week when I was working on my own presentation for, you know, kind of launching our new product for Up My Influence. And so I needed a quote that expressed my sentiment that, you know, in business, there are a few problems that exist that sales can't solve or just, you know, more opportunities, more at bats. And so I was doing some research and using ChatGPT and some other tools, you know, just trying to find out, like, who do I like who has said good things on this topic?

7:46And I found John, John Jax, you know, again, the author of Duct Tape Marketing and the founder. but he said that lead generation is the lifeblood. Now, I don't like the term lead and lead generation, even though it's a popular, and I've got my own reasons for that. But the quote, lead generation is the lifeblood of your business. Without a steady stream of leads, your business is starving, right? And so hopefully that's a big part of our strategy is how do we create consistency and predictability and we have that right quality that matches with our ICP. Do you mind maybe just sharing a little bit more on that top level, keeping kind of fresh connections coming through the front door?

8:29Yeah. I mean, it's always something that you should be focusing on in your business. We work with, as I said, a lot of agency owners, fractional CMOs, coaches, and a lot of times they'll get very into their client work and they'll forget about their own business. And so I'm always encouraging to set blocks on your calendar every single day where you're out there and you're marketing and you're selling and you're making conversations and you're speaking and you're podcasting and you're doing these things to get your name out there. And so it's always got to be a focus of your time and not an afterthought because when it's an afterthought, things slow down, things dry out, maybe you lose a client or two, and then you basically have to start from scratch to build more of a lead or sales or whatever you want to call it engine again.

9:09And so it's definitely something that should, as a CEO or someone that's building your business, it's something that should require your focus or your sales team focus every single day, I would argue. Yeah. No, there's some serious consequences to getting, you know, kind of resting on your laurels. You know, oh, we got full roster clients. We don't need any more. Things happen. And oftentimes they don't have anything to do with you. It's just something that happens in a, you know, a couple of key clients lives. Right. And if you're not prepared with the inflow, it's like always having a roster full of folks that are in play.

9:46Yeah, that's a really dangerous and risky place to be. Because guess what? Those bills are coming due. Your expense is likely as an agency owner, as a consultant or consultancy, or again, as a marketing professional. It's really, really critical. What would you say, Sarah, for someone that maybe, like me, was an avid fan of the duct tape marketing brand? I think I started listening to John's podcast seven, eight years ago. It was a long time ago. And then maybe haven't been paying attention to the work or the thought leadership that duct tape marketing has been producing. What are you really into right now?

10:26We're really into, I mean, marketing has evolved and changed. and with the tool AI tools and everything that's happening in the space like there's just so many new things that we're always learning about and exploring but like what we've always been into is this idea of strategy before tactics and so we're like if you followed us over the years that's something John has been preaching as early on as his first book that he wrote duct tape marketing years ago now but that's still what we believe should be the leading force of all marketing so our tactics and our implementation has evolved to include different tools and resources that are now available, but we will still preach 100 % strategy before tactics.

11:05And that's what we're really into. But we are having fun exploring and playing with the different AI tools that are available out there. And one of the frameworks that we're now teaching this a newer framework that we're teaching is how to do the research on the front end to come up with topic ideas that you want to share with your audience to become a thought leader on. And then And we teach people to record videos on those different topics. And then we teach people how to take those videos and use different AI tools to create social clips and blog posts and email newsletters and social texts and all the different things.

11:39And so really, we're approaching the development in AI with how can you be more productive with your team and time? And you're creating this content. It's originally you. You're the thought leader. But then you're turning it into different forms. So stuff like that's evolved for us. And I think it's really exciting times to learn more about that. because there's a new AI tool you could learn about every single day if you wanted to at this point. Yeah, no joke. Tell me a bit about for someone that has not engaged other than maybe they've just really appreciated and loved the content, the book, and that sort of thing.

12:12Tell me about the work that, like, how do people engage with duct tape marketing? What do you do? And I think there's a couple of audiences that you serve. Yeah, so the two sides of our business is we work directly with small businesses. and that's where we'll come in and create a marketing strategy. And then we usually move into a long-term retainer engagement. Our longest client at this point is 15 years. And so we typically work with home service providers, professional services. We work with national B2B brands. Really, it's just the right fit. Typically, people that have been in business for a few years, maybe they've tried to work with different marketing companies or they've kept it in-house and they're looking to grow.

12:49That's kind of our ideal client for that side of our business. And then our other side of our business is we certify and train fractional CMOs, coaches, consultants, small agencies on our approach. So they essentially can position themselves as fractional CMO plus team moving forward. And that side, you know, we work with anyone like leaving corporate and have a bunch of marketing experience, but they're looking to launch their own business. that's a really common group of people that we work with, or like a smaller agency that has been very tactic-driven that now wants to shift more into the strategic side of marketing.

13:26And so we'll help them adapt our strategic model into what they're already doing, essentially. So those are the clients we work with. Yeah. What are the advantages for a potential client working with a fractional CMO that's been through duct tape marketing. So I think that it could be tempting for any consultant to say, you know what, I'm going to start providing fractional CMO services. And maybe they just have a background in whatever they've been doing. But you know that if it's someone that's come up through duct tape marketing certification program, there's some certain standards. Do you mind sharing a little bit about what those standards are?

14:04Yeah, they're going to come in and they're going to lead with a 30 to 45 day strategy engagement. And then they're going to execute that strategy and they're going to stick to that strategy. I think that's where a lot of consultants sometimes, you know, when they come in and they don't leave a strategy and then they almost just become like vendors to the client and the client still has to direct them and tell them what to do. Like when you're coming in with a fractional CMO through our program, like they're going to leave strategy, they're going to complete the plan or they're going to create the plan and then they're going to make sure that the plan is executed, whether that be your in-house team or the team that they're bringing, that's a really important piece.

14:38And so essentially they're becoming a CMO or a leadership person on your team. So they're tasked with like reporting the metrics and the numbers and the impact and adjusting the strategy. And then they're essentially reporting to you as the business owner on how things are going. And so marketing really is off of your plate. Like you still want to be involved and understanding what's going on and be there for the monthly meetings, but you're not in the weeds of the tactics anymore. Yeah. So your website is ducttapemarketing.com. By the way, do you like that I pronounce that correctly? Yes, I appreciate that.

15:16marketing, stucktotapemarketing.com. And I know you've got so many great resources and in particular, I want to talk about the growth tools in a moment. But do you mind just sharing about the scope of resources that you, John, and all of DuckTapemarketing makes available to the marketing world? Yeah, I mean, we're really big on a ton of value on the front end. And so we've been producing content on the website for years and years. So we have countless blog posts, we have resource guides that are free. We have eBooks that are free. John's written seven books at this point that are all there. There's just a lot, probably too much information there to keep you busy.

15:53He's been podcasting since 2005. So there's a ton of free, valuable resources. If you just want to go and check those out, there's a lot there. Yeah. So in particular, you have a website with several resources for our listener right now. I'll give the website. It's DTM, standing for duct tape marketing, dot world slash growth. So again, DTM dot world slash growth. So if you go there, Sarah, what are they going to get? Yeah, there's a couple of different paths. We have some free resources for if you're a business owner listening to this. And then we also have another path with free resources if you are a marketing consultant agency on a fractional CMO.

16:39And so you can choose which resources you're interested in and download them. They're all free. And if you're interested in connecting with me as well, there's an option to schedule a one-on-one call just so we could explore getting to know each other more. Yeah. Sarah N.A., Chief Operating Officer at DuckTapemarketing, the website, DuckTapemarketing.com. And of course, this special page with the resources that are all free, dtm.world slash growth. Of course, you know, if you're an avid podcast listener, make sure that you are subscribed to Ductate Marketing, the podcast. But Sarah, it's been wonderful having you.

17:13Thank you so much for the work that you do. Thank you for not just doing great work and helping great marketers, but also for setting a positive culture, which is one thing that I really, really appreciated about, you know, kind of the values around duct tape marketing is just very pro collaboration, very pro partnership, which I absolutely love. And I think that together, you know, it's a rising tide lifts all boats kind of thing. And that's certainly part of the culture that I picked up on pretty early in John's work. Absolutely. Josh, thank you so much for having me. It was really fun being on the show.

17:52Thanks for listening to the Thoughtful Entrepreneur Show. If you are a thoughtful business owner or professional who would like to be on this daily program, please visit upmyinfluence.com and click on podcast. We believe that every person has a message that can positively impact the world. We love our community who listens and shares our program every day. Together, we are empowering one another as thoughtful leaders. And as I mentioned at the beginning of this program, if you're looking for introductions to partners, investors, influencers, and clients, I have had private conversations with over 2 ,000 leaders asking them where their best business comes from.

18:33I've got a free video that you can watch right now with no opt-in or email required where I'm gonna share the exact steps necessary to be 100 % inbound in your industry over the next six to eight months with no spam, no ads, and no sales. What I teach has worked for me for more than 15 years and has helped me create eight figures in revenue for my own companies. Just head to upmyinfluence.com and watch my free class on how to create endless high-ticket sales appointments. Make sure to hit subscribe so that tomorrow morning, that's right, seven days a week, you are going to be inspired and motivated to succeed.

19:14I promise to bring positivity and inspiration to you for around 15 minutes every single day. Thanks for listening and thank you for being a part of the Thoughtful Entrepreneur Movement.