2002 - Storytelling That Sells - Using Stories to Resonate and Succeed

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1:05Welcome back to our special retrospective series celebrating 2 ,000 episodes of The Thoughtful Entrepreneur. I'm Elisa Nolan, Chief Operating Officer at UpMyInfluence and your guest host for this journey. Today, we're diving into a theme that has been at the core of so many successful businesses, storytelling. In this episode, we'll explore how powerful storytelling in connecting with your audience and driving business growth. Josh, you've talked a lot over the years about the importance of storytelling in sales. It's something that not only helps to engage listeners, but also builds trust and fosters connections.

1:49Before we get into some of the specific stories that have been shared on the podcast, can you tell us why storytelling is so critical in sales and how it's influenced the way you've approached your interviews? Yeah, I don't listen. I don't think that there's likely no one here listening who would disagree with what you just said, right? So I feel like I'm beating a dead horse a little bit. Hopefully everybody knows that fill in the blank, facts tell and stories do what? They sell, right? And what I mean by sell is it's not so much about selling, right? It's about connection, right? So here's what I find that a lot of audiences do when you tell a story.

2:33They see themselves in your journey, right? And this is why in sales, storytelling is so critical Because if you can tell a client story, what your guest is hearing is potentially themselves within that same story. And they're imagining it's like they're trying on a suit or trying on a set of clothes or trying on a dress, right? They're hearing the client story and they imagine themselves in that. It's like, you know, my wife and I just went to improv and I've taken, you know, I've taken like a year of improv classes. Like I really, really feel like I grew a lot when I invested that year in improv, right?

3:16And in improv, you know, one of the reasons that audiences connect and engage so much with an improv performer is because they feel the uncomfortableness that that improv performer is being put on. And now they have to like sing a song on cue, making up the words. and all of us in the audience are feeling like, oh my gosh, that would be so hard in that situation. And it's like, so when they do it, you're like, I can't believe that, right? And it's, you know, it's a skill that you learn. It's kind of an art that you learn and stuff, but still. But the more you do it, the more comfortable you get doing it.

3:51Yeah, yeah, yeah, truly. You know, but I guess to my point is, you know, the audience is, you know, your facts are, you know, you could get folks nodding their head like, oh, thank you, nice fact. Okay, good, now I know something. But facts are independent from their emotional connection to you. Now, maybe you can give a bunch of amazing facts and they can think, I mean, that's possible. But by and large, if you want people to connect with you, tell stories in which the audience can connect with. So in my last episode, we talked about this a little bit and why this is so critical. But again, great guests come with great stories.

4:27And if you truly want to empathize with your audience, let them know through your stories that what you're talking about illustrate this, that it matters to them. And here's an example of how this might matter to you. And in fact, not often, I'd say maybe 5 % of the time, I'll have a guest who says, any feedback? Or what did you think of that? Or how did I do? Or oftentimes, they're either looking for compliments. But once in a while, they say, can you give me one piece of constructive criticism? And by the way, whoever the media person is that trained them to ask that, that's absolutely brilliant.

5:11Because if we don't know what we're doing, then we have no opportunity to improve and get better. And so, again, it feels good to have our ego stroked and so forth. So I get the desire for that. But honestly, the best question we could do as hosts is ask that question of like, you know, what can I do? I only share that because far and away, if somebody does ask that, I won't say, you stunk, here's what you should do better. I will never say that. But what I will say is say, you know, a lesson for me, unless they told, so I'm either going to give them a compliment or I'm just going to share it this way.

5:47Well, you did, listen, you did great. I want, you're fantastic. I know one thing for myself that I always try to remind myself to do is to tell more stories. And so I'll kind of give myself advice. Yeah, I was trying to soften it a little bit. So you're using storytelling as a way to help boost their storytelling. Storytelling is almost always going to be, like, if I were to be unfiltered, I would say, you know, I either loved your stories or as a reminder to myself, like, I need to tell more stories and better stories. Or I might, you know, again, and if I were completely unfiltered, I would say, you know, probably could have told more stories.

6:23I'm not going to say that in that way, but I could just speak generically to all podcast guests out there, work on your stories. And storytelling really is a universal thing. I mean, you see kind of like, and I say this as somebody who's read a lot of Joseph Campbell. Yes, I know. You know, there's so many themes that people really, you know, connect with and resonate with that are just universal. So one of the guests that who really emphasized the power of storytelling was John Levesay. And back in April of 2022, John talked about how storytelling is essential for connecting with your audience in a way that facts and figures alone can't achieve.

7:11And it's through stories that we draw people in and help them see the value in what we're offering. Let's listen to what John had to say. Let's talk about why stories are critical to connecting with audiences, connecting with customers, connecting with investors, you know, coworkers, you know, your boss, your supervisor. Like, why do stories win? Well, Jess, the number one reason why stories win is it makes you magnetic where you pull people in as opposed to pushing out information. and secondly it makes you memorable for what I call the meeting after the meeting which is basically they hear people present or pitch maybe two or three if you're a speaker like me they usually interview you know there's a final two or three and this happens in almost every industry and then they have the second meeting where they sit around they go well we heard all the pitches what do you think and people normally say well they all sound the same I guess we should go with the cheapest but if someone's heard you tell a story about your impact in the world they're gonna of go, Oh, Josh told this amazing story of a client.

8:17He helped. It sounds just like us. That's who I think we should go with. So the stories make you memorable and then somebody can repeat it and become your brand ambassador. Yeah. And, and so your, would you mind kind of, cause I, I want, I really enjoyed better selling through storytelling before we start talking about the new book. Can you just kind of recap the better selling through storytelling? Cause I I really think that, you know, anyone that, um, and everyone is in sales. Yeah. Would you talk about that first? Cause I just said that, and I'm assuming that everyone's jiving with that, right?

8:55Why is everybody in sales? Because you have to sell yourself to get hired, to get your ideas implemented, to get promoted. And even if you don't have a sales title, you're still in the business of getting people to join your team, um, positioning what your brand is. So it's all about selling yourself or your company, even if that's not your job. And when you realize that and you don't want to be pushy, the easiest solution to not feeling pushy is to tell a story that pulls people in. So it behooves everybody to up their storytelling skill game, become a black belt in it. Because when you become really good at storytelling, Josh, people see themselves in the story and then they want to go on the journey with you.

9:39It's not a pushy close at all. It's just simply that question. Does that sound like the kind of journey you'd like to go on with me? And bam, if you've told a good story that's clear, concise, and compelling, odds are they're going to say yes. John really hits the nail on the head when it comes to using storytelling to connect with your audience. Josh, you've interviewed a wide range of guests from different industries. How do you think business leaders can adapt their stories to resonate with different audiences? And are there any examples from the podcast where a guest did this particularly well?

10:17Yeah. So listen, stories don't have to be your own story, right? So if you look at who you are demographically, and that is just a slice of the big pie, and very few people maybe have had your background and your experiences, you may want to really lean into the stories of your clients that represent who your audience is, your team members. Just, you know, again, stories that you hear, stories that support what you're doing, but they're, you know, but they were shared by someone else. Like those, those are just as impactful. You know, And again, when you can tell other people's stories very well, I think it's really, really critical, Elisa, and I try to do this and I can always do better.

11:09You know, I'm a white dude. And, you know, for me to include stories that involve people of color and women, that's a priority for me. Because I know that most people listening to this podcast are not white dudes. I owe it to the two-thirds or three-quarters or whatever it is that are not white men to try to include stories or experiences or things that I've read and learned that might be valuable to show them, no, I do care about your experience. And I do want to relay that. So I can speak generally about that principle. And storytelling, really, it's not about telling any story. It's about telling the right story in the right way.

12:01So from your experience, what makes a story compelling and effective in the context of business and sales? And how can entrepreneurs and business leaders refine their storytelling to make a stronger impact? Yeah, I believe that a lot of us are visual people. Like that's a really key part of it. So I know for me, and again, I could always do better at this, but if I tell a story to include describing things visually, because again, if I can get my audience to see it in their mind, then they're invested. If it's just, I'm telling a story, but it's just, again, it's just very factual. It just doesn't have the emotional punch because they're, again, they're still at a very surface level with you.

12:50You want your audience to imagine what that's like. So one principle, for example, it's not necessarily, it's more of an, it's an illustration and less of a story per se, but one illustration that I commonly use when I am talking with a potential client or partner, and I say, listen, you know, if you were in the business development space or sales development space, lead gen is really tough today. And unfortunately, a lot of gurus that are out there are saying if you want to capture leads, that you need to kind of just spray and pray and go hunt and chase them and stuff like that, right? And I disagree with that.

13:31And the illustration that I use is imagine your goal were to attract butterflies. Now, I've got lots of butterfly plants. I've got purple ones. I've got yellow ones. I've got, you know, in the front part of the house, and I've got a bee bush in the back. And like, I really, I love having a property where butterflies come to visit. They're beautiful. It makes me happy. I smile, right? So if your goal is to attract a bunch of butterflies and some guru hands you an oversized net and imagine your hands around that butterfly net. And then he says, okay, well, now you got to run up and down the street like a maniac swinging and trying to hunt down and catch butterflies.

14:16I see that akin to how a lot of lead gen is being done or has been done, and it's less effective than it used to be. Plus, imagine what you look like or a neighbor looks like when they're doing that. It looks kind of silly, doesn't it? Crazy. So the way that, and again, my point is, if you want to attract butterflies and you had a few months to do this, how would you do it? Well, you would plant a butterfly garden. And so I invite you to get some purple flower plants, get some yellow flower plants, get some red flower plants, get them out there, and again, attract the butterflies to you. So again, not so much a story per se, but again, the illustration with some of those visuals are helpful to get someone to go, okay, yep, I got it.

15:06I feel like I was there a little bit. Another incredible story comes from Michael Houlihan and Bonnie Harvey, the founders of Barefoot Wine. In their episode from April 2020, they shared the journey of building Barefoot Wines and how they've turned entrepreneur stories into something even bigger through their consulting firm. It's a journey that's filled with lessons on persistence, creativity, and of course, storytelling. Let's hear a bit of their story. So would you mind by kind of sharing just a little bit about your journey and where did Barefoot Wines come from and how did you create such an empire in the wine world and kind of when was this and what were you doing differently that caused you to rise above the rest?

15:58Well, I think our key assets were that we had no knowledge of the industry and we didn't have any money. We were forced to be creative, to be innovative, to be resourceful. And we started off being resourceful by taking advantage of an opportunity that was presented to us. I had a client who was owed a good deal of money for some grapes for three years of harvest. He was a grower. And he was a great grower. And Michael went to the winery that owed him the money to collect the funds and attempted to collect the funds and found out that they had just declared bankruptcy. But he was able to get bottling services and bulk wine.

16:45So that's what we started with. A trade. A trade. And then eventually the grape grower had said, you know, I can't take on a new business. So Michael had the brilliant solution that we would take the debt and we would take the bottling services and the bulk wine, sell it on the, you know, to all the chains and pay the grower back, put a couple bucks in our pocket. And how hard could that be? Yeah. How long could that take? So it's one thing, though, to have an opportunity. So that's how we got started. Yeah. And some people might say, Bonnie, that you got lucky. But luck is where opportunity meets preparation.

17:29That's right. Absolutely. We asked a lot of questions because we really didn't know the industry. And the answers we got were the real key to our success. and we learned where there was a space in the chain stores where they needed another product which was in the larger size so that was a real big key it had much less competition and we were also told to make the name the same as the logo which we did and to make it visible from four feet away as she the female shopper in the chain stores where the majority of wine is sold, can see it as she pushes her cart down the aisle. So these were all gems that really helped us succeed.

18:14Plus, the full title of our book and our audio book is The Barefoot Spirit, How Hardship, Hustle, and Heart Built America's Number One Wine Brand. So it took a lot of all of those things. I'll say. Yeah, yeah. So another thing, of course, is talk about the wine world prior to Barefoot coming on the scene? Well, it was stayed and it was exclusive. Yes. I guess in today's world, you know, you would say it was stuffy or uptight. Snooty. Snooty, you know. And, you know, somewhat snarky toward people who couldn't speak the language. Right. It was mostly male buyers. At the retail level. Yeah, at the retail.

19:07Not the wholesale. I mean, not the end user. Ironically, the end user was like 75 % female. But all the buyers and gatekeepers were made of wines that were Saturday night brag wines that were vintage dated and vineyard designated. And here we come with a non-vintage varietal wine for$5.99. and old boy did get in trouble with the establishment. They said we were trying to cheapen wine. And of course, we were actually trying to make wine more available and to compete with beer and other kinds of alcohol beverages that were much less. I mean, people aren't going to get turned on to wine at$29 a bottle.

19:53Well, you showed them wrong. Yeah, it took a while. We had to beat them up. There was a lot of missionary work. You know, it's not enough to have a good idea. You have to get the other person to realize that there's a need. And that's called missionary work, where you're actually educating people. And it was much more than we thought. And we have clients today, and we listen to their great ideas, and we go, yeah, that's great. But, you know, you got to convince people that they need it. And so what were the conversations like when you were talking with retailers? Were they receptive at first? Not really.

20:39It was a new product that nobody knew. What they were most interested in was bringing customers, are bringing customers into their store to buy the product. So how are we going to sell the product, help them sell the product? So we sold and we supported what those communities were interested in, whether it was a park or whether it was cleaning up a beach or any kind of community nonprofit event. And because we were supporting these nonprofit events and we told them where the product was available in the marketplace, they would go in and buy them. And that worked very well for us. Because remember, I said we didn't have any money.

21:21And that was one of our key assets. So we couldn't afford paid advertising. So we used existing networks of nonprofits and supported them with all the free wine they wanted for their fundraisers. And in the hopes that their members would have a social reason to not just buy our wine, but to be advocates for it. Mm-hmm. And what went into the thinking of the actual brand Barefoot? I mean, obviously, I know what it comes, you know, what I start thinking of, but I would imagine that, I don't know if that was the first thing that came out of your mouth or mind was like, let's name it Barefoot. You probably thought about maybe some different alternatives.

22:07Well, we were talking to buyer, you know, when you don't know what you're doing, you're more humble and you uh you know you've got this opportunity you traded this debt for wine but you know wine's going to go bad if it doesn't get put in the bottle and sold especially white wine and so you know here we are we're desperate so we're asking people you know what should the label look like this and that and one of the buyers said well you know the label has got to be easy to read from four feet away. It's got to be a symbol that is the same as the word. And the word has to be in plain English. These are buyers talking to us, you know, and they've seen thousands of labels, and most of them fail.

22:51And so here they're giving us what they think is the ideal label. So the name is the same as the logo. So barefoot and a picture of a barefoot. And we like the barefoot idea because for one thing it was as far away from nose in the air as humanly possible yeah so it really distinguished snobs and the other reason we liked it was because it was you know the way wine was originally made you know in way back in roman times and uh the grapes were crushed with bare feet and and when you're barefoot the other meaning of it is you you know you're you're not uptight you're relaxed you're on the beach you're in the hot tub you're in front the fire.

23:32And so it's hard to be uptight when you're barefoot. What happens when you launch a brand and a company? And I mean, from my perspective, and you may have a different experience of this, but it got pretty big. And I don't know if it felt fast, that felt fast to you, or maybe it was a very natural evolution progression. But I mean, I don't know if you were ready for a company of the size that Barefoot came to be? Well, first of all, you have to remember, Josh, if you're pushing on the Queen Mary, it takes not just all day, but a couple years before it even moves. But once it starts to move, if you keep on pushing on the Queen Mary, you can actually get it rolling toward the mouth of the harbor.

24:25And then it can get under steam. It takes a whole lot more energy and focus to get it going from dead still than to bring it up to cruising speed. And it's called overcoming the inertia. And this is the problem that all entrepreneurs face, which is who is your first two customers and then how do you build it from there and then because you got these first two customers you find out what you're doing wrong because the customers are complaining and you have to get in there and fix things we like to tell our clients don't sell your product any further away from your house than you can drive and return to your house and apologize in one day And so eventually, did it get to a size that you're like, whoa, this is, I mean, do you just continue to keep rising to the occasion and operations get bigger and bigger and you've got more and more staff that are involved in this?

25:27What was your, how did you grow with your company? Well, one thing is we outsourced for all of our services. so that helped keep our employees down in number all of the employees that we had were managers half of them were off in the market they were sales people watching the distributors the retailers and supporting the communities and the other half were managing um the different aspects of what we needed in the office winemaking production production ordering all the supplies marketing logistics printing all of these things so that helped keep the number of people we were dealing with down and it's a real benefit to go to somebody else and have them do the bottling rather than are trying to gain enough money somehow to uh either buy a winery or to build one that that wasn't in our plans and our contracts were written in such a way that if our outsourced bottlers didn't do it exactly right according to the contract we didn't have to pay for it so if you have a winery for instance or any kind of a production facility making any product you are under a lot of financial pressure to put the product out even if it's not up to your liking and so you can put out a mediocre product just because you have to We never had to.

26:58We've always put out gold medal winning products. The other thing I was going to say about, about growth and scaling is that you really have to get very good at writing contracts. So you have to kind of cop an attitude that says, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. So you learn how to make mistakes right. and we say that's W-R-I-T-E, right? Not just R-I-G-H-T. So you make the mistake, you write down what the mistake was or how the person took advantage of you, and then you write down something. It might be a clause in a contract, a sign-off sheet. It's something. It might be 10 things.

27:44But the idea is your company gets better every time you take a hit. Never waste a perfectly good mistake. that's such a powerful story and it really shows how storytelling can take a brand to new heights yep josh after hearing so many stories over the years what advice would you give to someone who's looking to craft their own business story yes what are the key elements they should focus on to make sure their story resonates and drives results. Yep. I had a challenge. This is how I felt. This was the consequence. These were the consequences that I was afraid of from this current situation. Then you start your transition, right?

28:35So you start with the problem. You magnify the effects or fear of the problem. Then you introduce a solution. So I found X. So I discovered X. So I read a book. I read The Go-Giver. And here's what I realized. And then I tested it. And I wasn't sure at first. And I did it. And it wasn't perfect. But I grew or results started to happen. And then this is what happened emotionally during that process. And then I got to a point where, yes, clearly this was successful. And let me tell you some client stories. story one, story two, story three. And then like, listen, I've been through this and then kind of cap it up with a, you know, a sentiment of, listen, this was my journey.

29:25I don't know if I can help you, but certainly if, you know, if I can share some of my experience and, you know, if I can help you through maybe something that you're going through right now, happy to be of service, however that looks, even if it's just inspiring great ideas. Elisa, what I just illustrated right there, I think is one of the closest things to a perfect kind of a, you know, again, if we're thinking about sales, you know, when you're speaking to a larger group, I think it's probably one of the closest things to perfection that you can do right now. That general formula that I share.

29:57And again, you got your own audiences, you got your own stories, you got your own who you are and stuff like that. But again, if you can kind of focus on, I had a problem. this was the emotional weight of that problem. So don't just say the problem and then immediately go to solution. You want to get people to feel or identify with how you felt and connect with them person to person. I felt insecure. I felt afraid. I felt like, in my case, I felt like I wasn't being a good provider or husband or father or something like that. And I share how that felt. And then, you know, I kind of take them through the journey.