2234 - Mastering Leadership by Balancing Flexibility with Core Values in Uncertain Times with Kevin Eikenberry

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1:05With us right now is Kevin Eikenberry. Kevin, you are the chief potential officer with the Kevin Eikenberry Group. That's you. Your website, kevineikenberry.com. To our friends that are listening, you just simply click around in your podcast app and you'll find the direct link to Kevin's website. Kevin, you're also the author of the book, Flexible Leadership, Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. Very apropos for the time. Kevin, it's great to have you. Josh, it's a pleasure to be with you. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Before we get going, just in your personal life, what have you been listening to, watching, into?

1:44I don't know if you have any main hobbies that you love that you've been quite passionate about lately. Well, forever, as long as ever since 1980, when I stepped on campus at Purdue University, I've been a big fan of Purdue sports and a huge fan of men's college basketball. And we've had a really good team for a number of years, which makes it extra fun. So that's certainly one of those things. We're in the lull of that right now. You know, now if you're a big geek in that stuff, you're paying attention to who they're recruiting for two years from now. But fundamentally, that's one of the things that I love to spend time doing.

2:18I bet. So how far are you from Purdue? We live about an hour away from campus. Okay. So I would imagine you get the season passes. You have your, I don't know. I do not because of my travel schedule. I'm not always there, but I don't ever miss a game. Like I had, I had to, I had to, I had to sign up for Paramount Plus so I could watch a game that I would have been at, except I was on a plane with my family to Hawaii last, before last Christmas. And so then after that, of course, then I started watching a bunch of other shows on Paramount Plus, which I never would have watched if it hadn't started with it needing to watch a ballgame that was playing down the road from where I live, but I was on an airplane.

2:57Nice, nice. I recommend the show Hell on Wheels. That's what my wife and I are watching. Early kind of railroad, transcontinental railroad is pretty great. Well, Kevin, let's talk about the work that you do. And certainly we'll talk about flexible leadership. But do you mind just kind of giving us an overview of your impact in the world and your services? Sure. We're in the business of helping leaders make a bigger difference for their teams, their organizations in the world. So we're in the leadership development business. And that plays out in all sorts of ways from Josh, from me giving keynotes to us doing workshops, for me, being on podcasts, writing books, developing e-learning, having a social media presence, and lots of other stuff.

3:38But we are in the leadership development business. Well, in your subtitle, you talk about navigating uncertainty. I think it's fair to say that there's always a degree of uncertainty. But I think particularly right now, as I talk with a lot of leaders, there is definitely a lot of uncertainty systemically. And I don't know if you have been adapting your message to some of the larger macro elements going on. But I'd love to hear your mini TED Talk on this. Well, listen, as human beings, there's a whole lot of things that are truly uncertain. It's just that a lot of those things we're used to. We don't know what's going to happen when the day starts.

4:23We know that we're pretty confident there'll be oxygen to breathe and the sun's going to come up and the sun's going to go down. But beyond that, like, there's very little in our world that we have control of, right? We have control of ourself, right? Of what we do say, think, feel, and choose and everything and a whole lot of other stuff we can influence. And then a few things we have neither control nor influence over. But the point is, since we're in a world where we influences our realm more than control, then that means that we don't know. Like, and so you can do something, Josh, like I could do, 75 podcast interviews and I could expect to get a certain kind of question and I could get that question a bunch of times and it could land, my answer could land really well.

5:07And then that question could get asked again and it might not land well at all. I don't know that. I can improve my odds. I can improve the odds of that happening. So I would say that we're always living in uncertainty. It's just that we've gotten used to a lot of it. Now you sort of hinted at sort of geopolitical stuff, bigger picture stuff. And we could focus on that, but we can also focus on the fact that the way that we think about work has changed dramatically. And it started in a weekend. It took 80 years for us to determine that work really meant eight to five, Monday to Friday. It took eight, it took 80 years to get from work is six days a week, 12 hours a day to work is five days a week, eight hours a day.

5:47And then in a weekend we said, well, we don't even know where we're working anymore. So there's all the uncertainty that comes with us continuing to unpack and decide and figure out where, when, how, and what we're going to look like. That change was coming, but the uncertainty that came with it came in an instant, as we all know. And we're still living that out as one example. We've got all of the uncertainty that comes with things like AI. Now, what we can know is that there have been other technological changes, that there have been the whole range of from doom and gloom to best thing since sliced bread kinds of conversations.

6:30In fact, you and I, you just mentioned Hell on Wheels, a show I haven't seen, but I just wrote down, that you could go back and read when railroads were, when trains were coming out, all of the things people thought were going to happen. People can't travel that fast, all of these sorts of issues. And so some of that gloom and doom continues for any new technology. And yet we could say that this AYI one, like it's a pretty big flipping deal, right? So if we're leaders and we're trying to navigate this for ourselves and with our teams, that's the challenge as leaders. We aren't just doing it for ourselves.

7:01We have to try to figure it out for those that we're leading. then we have to be aware of those things. We have to be thinking about those things. And that leads not just to uncertainty, but the complexity of that uncertainty. And that's really what we're trying to help people with as leaders today, if we have the same message that we've had forever. Well, and I would imagine through history, history has left some lessons of incredible leaders during times of great turbulence and great uncertainty that rose to the occasion and recognized that they were the right person in that moment when maybe lesser leaders may not have carried that mantle.

7:43And I'm sure that there's maybe some examples through history that have inspired you, but anything come to mind? Well, here's what I would say. Like, first of all, your point is critically important. There are lessons we can learn from history, and many choose not to learn them. And so then they will be repeated. But rather than me talking about an Abraham Lincoln or whomever we might want to pick in the past, I'd rather us realize this, that in your business, in your situation, you have a choice to make. You may never have the impact of a Lincoln or a Rockefeller or a Churchill or whomever we might pick in the past.

8:20But you can have a huge and massive impact for your team, but not if you continue to do things the way you've always done them in a changing. So, you know, we can think in that sort of grandiose picture, Josh, but I would really hope that people can say, OK, it's hard sometimes to translate that because, well, that didn't mean. But here's what I know is true, that there's been a time that someone's come into your office and asked you a question and you didn't just give them immediate answer, but you stopped and said either to them or in your head, well, what we do next depends. It depends. You've said it depends.

8:55And if you've said it depends and then stopped and considered what it depended on what I would call the context of the situation and considered options in terms of what you might do next as a leader, in that moment, you were being a flexible leader. Because if you weren't, if you just went on your autopilot natural response, you weren't flexing, you were just going. I'm suggesting that we all have had those moments where we said to ourselves, it depends, and then considered other options. At the core, being a flexible leader is being flexible on how we lead in a given moment. And we all have done it.

9:37I'm just suggesting we need to do it a whole lot more. And we put some framework around some of that. Yeah. And I'm curious about the framework of the flexibility, right? And if there are maybe core values that are not as flexible, but yet those are kind of the guiding principles that we use. And within that realm, then, you know, giving ourselves that freedom, I don't know, like, where do we come back? What's that fulcrum that we come back to that allows us that spance of responses? Because I agree with you. A rigid leader is just always going to say the same thing no matter what. They dispense in the exact same advice that they were dispensing 10 years ago.

10:21I think most of us would recognize that that's ripe for some pain. The tension that you're describing is important, and I'm really glad that you brought it up, Because the tension between, well, aren't we supposed to be consistent, solid, stable, a known quantity versus flexibility? How do we juxtapose those two things? And so here's how I would encourage you to think about it. Think about it like a tree. A tree is rooted. It is stable. It is consistent. It's lasted a long time because of its roots. And our roots as a leader are our values, is our purpose, is our why, is our organizational goals.

11:00It are the principles of human dynamics. Like humans aren't really changing that. I mean, the dynamics of how humans interact, those sorts of things, while the context of the technologies that we use to do it might be changing, humans aren't changing as fast as the technology. So the principles, the values, the purpose, that stuff, we should be rooted in those things just as a tree is rooted. But all you got to do is look at a tree in anything other than a photograph, and you will know that it's flexing in the breeze. And so we as leaders must flex in our how while being rooted in our values, our principles, the principles of human behavior and group dynamics.

11:40And if we are rooted in those things, but are able to flex based on the context of the situation, the harder the breeze, the more the flexing, right, for the tree, same for us. And in greater times of uncertainty, having a broader range of things we're comfortable in flexing to because of that context becomes our key. I wanted to ask you something somewhat related, or at least get your point of view on this. It's just something I've been curious about lately, and that is our role as a leader and how we get wrapped up in our identities as a leader. And I wonder, you know, what your perspective is on kind of that healthy level of identity in that I am a CEO.

12:27I've got my big business pants, you know, big businessman pants on. And, you know, at some point, I don't know, can you address maybe like that healthy level of identity in that role? And then, you know, maybe coming back to, you know, well, and also I'm a dad, I'm a human, you know, I'm this, I'm, you know, I'm a kid just trying to figure out the world myself. you know well let's just start here and i love the question let's just start here everybody um who you are is not what you do like there are two different things going on here and that there's there's value in an identity until there's not and here's when identity gets in our way when we have said this is how i this is me i lead this way i've taken this assessment and i have these letters after my name, or I have this style, or I have these strengths, or these are my weaknesses.

13:20This is who I am. If that's where you're at, it's extraordinarily difficult for you to flex. And if we take identity and then unhealthily put ego with it, back to your point of, well, I am the CEO. Well, that is a role that you play. That is a hat that you put on. But if you aren't able to change hats, if you aren't able to see yourself as more than just your role, but rather, like there's a difference between who we are and what we do. And being clear about that is really important. And the last thing I'll say about this is that if we've taken style assessments, we've taken all these kinds of things which can be of great value, they tell us something about our tendencies.

14:07And if we have a tendency, we can recognize that and then flex from that tendency, even if it's uncomfortable. But if we've taken tendency and made it identity, it's extraordinarily hard for us to flex. Yeah. Kevin, can you share maybe just a bit about your work? Obviously, we've been talking about your book, and the book is called Flexible Leadership, Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. It's available at kevineikenberry.com, where you can order it from everywhere. But Kevin, do you mind maybe just sharing a little bit about, do you work, do you consult, do you coach? Yeah, all of the above.

14:46So we work with organizations around succession planning, culture development, organizational development, change management, all things that are at the top of the list for leaders. We do workshops based on all of our IP created over the years through the number of books that we've written and the work that we've done. I do keynotes. I do some and people in our organization do coaching. So if it's related to, and we have all sorts of online tools, both free and paid. So fundamentally, if you're thinking about wanting to develop as a leader or develop the leaders in your organization, it'd be worth a conversation with us.

15:25We might not be the right fit for you, but the chances of us delivering something in the kinds of ways you might need, pretty high. What might be some indications that someone might be a really great fit for you in terms of like maybe the size of company, but I'd say most importantly, maybe some of the gaps that they're curious about within their organization? Well, the first thing I would say is, and chances are, if you're listening to us right now, you meet this first criteria, which is that you realize that having more effective leaders or being a more effective leader will have a huge positive impact on your organization.

15:58And you're willing to invest in that. Like organizations, regardless of industry, regardless of size, if they don't have that mindset that developing leaders is a great or can be a great investment, then we're probably not a good fit. But if you've gotten to that point, then there are a number of pains that you might be finding that we might be a good fit to help you with. If you're really working through major change efforts, we've done a lot of work to help leaders change their mindset around change and helping creating the skills to create great, highly effective change. We've done a tremendous amount of work with organizations who wanted to reframe, rework, create an aspirational organizational culture.

16:39We've done a great deal of work around that. And then really leaders at any level, trying to help them grow. So one of my books was called From Bud to Boss. So we do a lot of work helping frontline leaders or brand new leaders be more effective in that really most difficult transition of our careers, as well as leaders of leaders and on up through. So again, the most important thing, Josh, is that the organization realizes that investing in leadership development is a good investment. It's not an expense, but it is an investment. That's the great mindset that's needed for there to be a chance that we might be successful helping you.

17:17For our friend that's been listening to this conversation, what would you recommend Next Steps be? Obviously, the book is available. It's on Amazon and everywhere else. By the way, it's also available in Kindle. It's a hardcover Kindle and audiobook. So thank you so much for making the audiobook available for us. And audio by me. So if you haven't liked my voice, then don't go audio. But if you say, well, he's not too bad to listen to, then the audiobook is actually me doing it. So next step for a friend that's listening to this podcast. Well, actually, here's the next step I want to give you a gift.

17:53So my gift to all of you. The last word in the subtitle of the book is the word confidence. Navigate uncertainty and lead with confidence. And so if you're listening to this, I want to give you a gift. If you go to kevineikenberry.com slash gift, I will give you our masterclass on building our confidence in the confidence of others. You can get access to that for yourself and anyone else in your organization. Just go to kevineikenberry.com slash gift. There's some more stuff about the book there. but that masterclass that we sell every day for$79 is yours with my gratitude. So please feel free to take advantage of that.

18:30And I failed to mention Kevin, that you also have a podcast. It's called the remarkable leadership podcast. So here's another next step. If you like what you're hearing, just go subscribe to the remarkable leadership and, and carry on in the conversation. What do you talk about on that, on that show? So there's two parts to the show every week. I do an interview much like this a little longer and with thought leaders, mostly with thought leaders around anything around leadership, whether that's personal development, organizational development, leadership in general, the future of work, et cetera, all of those things you'll find there.

19:06And then every week also, there's a short three to five minute piece from me that originally comes out on YouTube called Remarkable TV that we also put on the podcast as well. Kevin Eikenberry, keynote speaker. You are the chief potential officer, author. Your website is kevineikenberry.com. Kevin, it's been a great conversation. Thank you for joining us. Thanks, Josh, for having me.

19:38Thanks for listening to the Thoughtful Entrepreneur Show. If you are a thoughtful business owner or professional who would like to be on this daily program, please visit upmyinfluence.com and click on podcast. We believe that every person has a message that can positively impact the world. We love our community who listens and shares our program every day. Together, we are empowering one another as thoughtful leaders. And as I mentioned at the beginning of this program, if you're looking for introductions to partners, investors, influencers, and clients, I have had private conversations with over 2 ,000 leaders asking them where their best business comes from.

20:20I've got a free video that you can watch right now with no opt-in or email required where I'm going to share the exact steps necessary to be 100 % inbound in your industry over the next six to eight months with no spam, no ads, and no sales. What I teach has worked for me for more than 15 years and has helped me create eight figures in revenue for my own companies. Just head to upmyinfluence.com and watch my free class on how to create endless high ticket sales appointments. Make sure to hit subscribe so that tomorrow morning, that's right, seven days a week, you are going to be inspired and motivated to succeed.

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