2325 - Transform Your Relationships and Sales through Ethical Persuasion Techniques with Patrick Van Der Burght

0:04Well, hey, Thoughtful Leader. Welcome to the Thoughtful Entrepreneur. On this show, I interview purpose-driven founders, experts, and change makers who are making a real impact in the world. Want to be a guest? Simple. Go to upmyinfluence.com and click podcast. I'd love to promote your story to our audience of over 100 ,000 and across over 2 ,300 daily episodes and counting. Want to get booked on other great shows like this? Simple. Go to podverified.com and get your free guest authority score. Thousands of hosts are looking for high quality guests and Podverified connects you the right way. Now let's dive into today's episode.

0:58With us right now, Patrick Vanderberg. Patrick, you are the Australian Chiodani certified coach. You're Chiodani Institute licensed trainer. You are a speaker. You're an author of the book, How to Hear Yes More Often. And your website is ethicalpersuasion.com.au. It's so great having you, Patrick. Thank you for joining us. I'm really excited to be here. I think we're very much on the same wavelength. Yes. Well, I can't wait to hear what you have to share because already, Like I've read Influence. I think a lot of folks that are listening to this episode have read or listened to Influence and familiar with Cialdini's work.

1:39And I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan. So do you mind this? Oh, before we get into the meetup, I was so excited. I always love kind of breaking the ice and finding out, you know, what other high level leaders are into in their spare time. Patrick, what are you geeking out on lately? uh well geeking out on um i'm a little bit boring but i do like things that move at a reasonable speed i'm actually a certified pilot commercial pilot actually what so when i get a chance i i'd like to go out for a little spin here around melbourne and um i love my motorcycle me and my wife both ride and so any opportunity we get out there on the harley and uh enjoy enjoy the outdoors.

2:20Yeah. So on the, on the flying, what, what sorts of aircraft do you fly? Just little ones, pipers, chieftains, that sort of stuff. Nice. Well, that's what, what is that for someone who's never, like if someone were saying, you know, I'm thinking about getting a pilot's license. What, what do you think they may experience that, that might be surprising to them? Like, and if they've never been in a small plane, they've only just flown commercial airliners but they're like you know they've heard you talk about it and then they get there they start going through the process like what what might they be surprised with or what i think a better question what might they be delighted with if they went through that yeah well maybe what you might not expect is that um you know you relatively quickly get um you know your hands on the controls and actually flying just go and do a a trial flight with an instructor and they'll that experience in itself which is also by the way a great gift to give someone so you get a little bit of a theory background how you know does a wing work that sort of stuff and then you go to the plane and they show everything you know about the plane and and safety features and then you get up and they'll they'll take off and then in the air you'll you'll get to fly it move it around and of course you know you you feel much more that you're actually moving in a big airline everything's sort of dulled down everything's delayed where um you know little planes like you're on a skateboard sort of everything you feel and yeah it's just uh it's wow you're right that would be a really cool gift all right i'm thinking of people don't forget it i mean you know yeah you give somebody money and it just is right give them an experience goes for anything send them on a boat cruise or movie ticket or, you know, get them in a run.

4:08I got some birthdays coming up and in my little circle here, and that would be cool. So it's almost like kind of, you know, it's like driver's training. You know, you learn to drive a car. I suspect, you know, you've got a stick. The pilot, the real pilot's got a stick. So, you know, you're not going to, you're probably not going to do something too bad that they can't just grab the stick. It's like, okay, I got it. That's enough for you. And cost wise, I mean, you know, if you rent a jet ski on the beach or something, probably per hour more expensive than getting on a little plane and taking a lesson.

4:42So, yeah. Wow. Okay. I'm inspired. Patrick, thank you so much. Let's talk about the work you do. Give us an overview of the work you do with your clients and your superpowers. All right. So basically, I teach people to be ethically more persuasive using behavioral science. And so that is about why do people say yes to another's request? And what most professionals don't know is that there is actually a science to this, right? So we wouldn't expect an architect to do a really good job designing a skyscraper without knowing the science, right? You could probably imagine what the outcome of that is.

5:24But yet in business, we are at it every single day and it's costing us every single day, right? If you ask for one thing one way, you get a certain amount of yeses. But if you ask for essentially the exact same thing, but in a different way, you get significantly more yeses. And so without that science, we are constantly losing out. And I can give you some examples of how powerful this is. And there's no need to lie or cheat. And that's what I always loved about it. It's powerful. And yeah, in a way, it makes the world a better place at the same time. Yes. And what a great time for this right now.

6:08My question is, why don't more people operate this way by default? Because they don't know they're in agony. That would be my answer. Because let me, if I may, let me give you an example. And with all the stuff we always teach, it's always science-based, right? There's no gut feelings from Patrick you get from me, right? Everything we teach with Dr. Cialdini and the Cialdini Institute is all research-based. And the examples are often not from the same industry that you might be in. And that's completely irrelevant because it's not about the industry, it's about the fact that we're dealing with people.

6:49So let me give you an example that will slap you awake in terms of being in agony. This is an example from a school. There were a number of students that were there on probation. And if they didn't raise their scores, their grades by a full letter by the next semester they would be asked to leave right so stakes were high and of course we can agree that succeeding or not succeeding that that would have a dramatic impact on people's lives right okay so the researchers randomly split the group of students into three groups, three experimental groups. One group is not asked to set any study goals.

7:36Another group is asked to set study goals and keep them in their head. The third group is asked to set study goals, write them down, sign their name, make copies and give one to every person in their class. Now the question is how successful were they? And we should say that all of them were granted the exact same opportunities, same support, same materials, same people to help them. That was all the same. The only thing that varied was this instruction. Not ask to set goals, keep them in your head or write them down and pass them around. So how good did they do? How many people actually raised their grades enough to stay in school?

8:20In the group that didn't set any study goal, they didn't do very well. Only 14 % succeeded to raise their grades high enough to stay in school. The other group that made study goals and kept them in the head, what do you think? Did they do better? Maybe a little bit. I'm assuming it's not going to be that significant because you're holding your punching hand back there with the third group. But go ahead. Tell us the rest of the story. So the middle group didn't actually do any better. Also, 14 % only raised their grades enough to stay in school. But the other group, right, who wrote it down and made it public, 86 % of those raised their grades enough to stay in school.

9:08Now, my point here is, I mean, that's, you know, you go like, wow, that's interesting, right? But now put yourself in the shoes afterwards of the students and their parents who were part of the first two groups. How pissed off would you be that just because randomly, because they obviously didn't know what effect it is, I might have had an idea, right? But randomly you ended up in a group. And as a result of that, what is it? 72 % of them had to leave the school that wasn't necessary. If they had just been allocated to the other group, they would have been in an 86 % group. And this is where the penny hopefully drops, is that if you don't know the science with your business, you're in that 14 % group.

10:03right now there's so much you're missing out on that other people are getting and you're not right so i think this really you know slaps us away because in there's so much you miss out on and of course i see the world through the lens of ethical persuasion science i can't open a restaurant menu without going oh my goodness if they just change the order they would sell more not next weeks now. And I see that everywhere. And, but yeah, anyway, I get carried away as usual. So, so let's tie that now to ethical persuasion. Help me, help me connect the dots here. Why that, that illustration is so critical to helping us, you know, get, maybe get more of what we want in life, particularly when we are in interpersonal dynamics.

10:52Yeah. Sorry. What do you, what do you mean by that? Well, I mean, so we're talking about persuasion and you showed, told us a story about goal setting and letting people know, you know, what our goals are. So I just want to make sure I've connected the dots on that. Cause I agree. I, I, I can absolutely see why, and I can absolutely see why I'm inspired to be much better at writing my goals, not just keeping it up in my head and certainly communicating it. Now I've got some skin in the game here. Cause I don't want to, you know, I don't want to look dumb in front of my friends, you know, so if I say I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it.

11:27Because that social pressure, because I don't want to be seen as someone who goes back on my word. So you're right. Like, you know, if you put it out there, probably going to happen. Yeah, exactly. So there's seven universal principles of persuasion. Maybe that's a good place to go. So the universal, because they work in all languages, in all cultures and all countries, which is increasingly more important because all our cultures are mixed and it's much easier to do, especially business with people in other countries. So the example I gave before, that hinges on the principle of consistency. We want to stay true to past actions and statements that we've made, especially, and those are the amplifiers, if it was done actively, publicly, and voluntary right all these principles of activators things that turn them on and amplifiers things that make them go stronger so when i set goals and i keep them in my head well it's not really active it's not public because nobody knows about it and it is voluntary right so i've hit one of them but not the others we're passing in passing it around qualified for the other other amplifiers um so what are the principles that we have we have the principle of reciprocity which a lot of people are familiar with um and most businesses take that as in okay we gotta we gotta give things to people and then they'll give back to us and it's in essence that's right but on closer investigation that's not as easy as it sounds i don't know you got this right because i know you know you brief people before they come onto your podcast which i was really impressed with and one of the things that you highlighted was that you know if you're going to you know give something to people, don't gate it, right?

13:15Often on people's, on businesses' websites, we say, oh, we have a wonderful ebook. You know, they use it as a lead generator. We have a wonderful ebook. Just put your name in, your email address. We'll send you the download link, our gift to you. Nice try, but that's not a gift. A gift is something that's given without a requirement needing to be met. And in the case of the ebook, it was give your name and your email address first and then you get the goodie. No, I mean, that's like, you may as well just like, that's like opening up a store and it's just bartering for goods, right? I mean, that's everybody does that.

13:53You just go to your local grocery store and buy. I mean, that's, that's what you're asking for. Yeah, I agree with you. And it is surprising, you know, how many folks want to initiate or begin a relationship with, well, I'm willing to do something nice for you, but you got to do something. You got to give me some currency first. That's tit for tat. I'm a big Bob Berg advocate and devotee as well. And that's something that Bob would likely frown upon. You're right. And then it's like if you begin the relationship that way, you know, they say about first impressions, it's like, what, you don't trust me?

14:29Like, why do I have to give you something first? Like, why can't we just, like, openly get to know one another? And I know why, right? Because it's the marketers like, oh, I don't want to lose these people. Well, to me, that communicates that you don't have a lot of confidence. And some of this stuff might come across as a little ouchy for someone listening to us right now. And I figure that there are some people that are like, oh, I better change my opt-ins. Well, but I mean, I'm not saying it's a bad thing to do. It could be a good lead generator. But if you think, oh, I'm giving something away because I'm going to try and be persuasive.

15:02I'm going to try and invoke reciprocation. Then you're completely missing the boat. But you could combine it. I mean, why wouldn't you have a gorgeous e-book you can use as a lead generator to try and capture people's email address? But at the same time, you might have a one page checklist that I don't know, I'm making this stuff up. If you are a startup, right, I'm a business coach. These are the 15 things that you should get organized, regardless if you work with me, the 15 things that you should do to set yourself up for success. Right. And let that list be something valuable to them, even if they don't use your services and put that on your website and just go just right click and download.

15:45no email required now it's a gift right and now we feel hey you were nice to me and next time when you come hey we've got a webinar on do you want to come listen that that fact that that emotional bank account of i owe you something that's going to increase the chances the amount of people that's going to say yes to you and turn up to that webinar yeah and what what did it cost you to give away, you know, allow someone to download your thing. That's nothing, right? Nothing. Your book is How to Hear Yes More Often. I'd like to advocate for our founder-led agency owners, consultants, and coaches who end up having to do a lot more of their own sales.

16:29They are likely very good at what they do, but they have to do sales. And sales is kind of maybe a necessary very evil for them, maybe not their zone of genius, but they have to do it anyway. For someone in that situation, what would you say are, you know, and again, they're having sales conversations, they're doing account-based sales, relationship-oriented, that sort of thing. What are some common areas where you see folks in that environment probably missing the mark? I'd like to, what I'm hoping is maybe you can identify a couple of like really easy to fix things or easy to deploy things that might help them close more deals or, you know, I don't want to say close more deals, but truly allow them to do the work that they really want to do and make positive impacts in the lives of those who they serve.

17:16Okay. I'll give you a couple of little things people can easily implement, but let me elaborate something else first. So we could identify in our relationships with people that there's three areas that we need to have in order for people to take action and move in our direction so one thing is that we need a strong relationship sometimes you know you email someone and they don't go back to you in you know three weeks before they get back to you that's a signal right you don't have a strong relationship and if people don't have a good relationship with you or they dislike you right they'll actually actually put in effort to not deal with you right so relationship is a very important pillar to success now it could be that they love you but they're not sure about what it is you're offering right everybody starts at a point of uncertainty about your offer and then you know we need to convince them that what you offer is right for them and of course if they remain uncertain then typically price objections come up at the end because that's an easy excuse right so certainty or uncertainty could be your next problem you could have a good relationship but they're not quite sure about what it is you offer so that's something that needs to be worked on then it could be that they love you they love your product but they're just not getting it they're just not buying it right so now motivation is lacking and so with the principles of persuasions the particular principles that are good for building and strengthening and repairing a relationship other ones are good for reducing that uncertainty and then other ones are good for motivating into action and so we have to learn this stuff properly so we can identify as you know sleuths dr cialdini would say or detectives i typically say we need to see where we are right if you just met somebody it's no use trying to motivate them into action i mean you might get lucky sometimes but if you strengthen that relationship first and reduce the uncertainty you'll have a lot more success when you start motivating people so i think those are some critical insights in terms of some quick things people can do and these are maybe a little bit different than than than people typically might hear so in the principle of authority um one of the things is our believability our our trust factor let's say you can write a brochure you can do a pitch you can have a website and you just talk about how wonderful you are and we do this and we're starting great at this and we do you know we're wonderful and your audience is going to go well yeah maybe right there's a certain amount of believability credibility to what you're doing now one thing that i often see business owners shoot themselves um shoot themselves um is that when it comes to numbers is that they use rounded numbers.

20:12Let me give you an example. I do a fair bit of networking and a lady stands up and she tells her about her business and she says something along the lines of, last month we worked with the company and we managed to save them$300 ,000. Wow. Wow. Okay. Impressive. That's a lot of money, right? Cool. But now imagine if she had stood up and said, last month we worked with the company and we managed to save them$289 ,600. $312.56. You can feel the difference, right? When it's a rounded number, obviously it wasn't exactly$300 ,000. It was something else. But you decided to round it off. You took a liberty.

20:57And I don't know how much liberty you took. So by using rounded numbers, you're damaging your own credibility. where if you stick to specific numbers, it feels like you took it straight off an Excel spreadsheet. Yeah. That must be the real number, right? So there's more believability to that. Another thing that I always see, especially on websites, is that people are very much in a habit of using gain language, right? So we say, okay, this is my product, this is my service, and then I'm going to explain to you all the wonderful things are going to happen to you when you use, when you buy my product or service, right?

21:43With a car, you'll get there faster. You'll be in more comfort. You'll save money and you'll help the environment, right? That's all game language. Research shows that we are significantly more motivated from the potential of losing something than gaining that exact same thing. And all those benefits, those gains, you could express those in a way of what will they not get if they don't move in your direction. Right. So you'll waste more time. You'll waste money on fuel. You'll it'll be more of a burden on the environment. Right. So now we're losing out and we're significantly more motivated to progress.

22:32I can actually tell you a brief story. There was a study where they did assessments of insulation values of homes. Right. So they did a long assessment to figure out in terms of insulation, could you do better sort of a thing. And then at the end of the assessment, people were instructed about the results and half of the people were told the gain instruction, As in, if you insulated your house fully, you'd be able to save, let's say, a dollar a day. The other half of the people were told, if you fail to insulate, you will lose a dollar a day. 150 % more people were motivated to insulate their house fully under the loss instruction.

23:24Yeah. Right? And so we need to learn to explain to people in a nice and tactful way what they will be missing out on if they don't use our product or service. Now, I'm not saying you should use that every single moment you can. You can also use benefits. But you do want to highlight that these are benefits that you don't want to miss out on. Right? So we want to use that fear of loss. Does that help you? Yeah. Yeah. I am on your website right now, ethicalpersuasion.com.au. To our friends that are also taking a peek at your website right now, what would you recommend they click on? Obviously, there's your book, How to Hear Yes More Often.

24:03Do you mind maybe sharing next steps from this podcast? Yeah. So to learn more, we have some free information that people can access. So in the menu bar, you'll see free. And there's a couple of options. You can get, just like I explained, you can get an ebook, but there's no email required. Just right click and download yours. And you can get a lot more than we were able to cover in this podcast today. There is also a seven day email challenge. Of course, for that, we do need your email address. And so you get a little nugget of gold, persuasion gold every day over seven days. And it's a that's a great place to start.

24:41You're absolutely correct. I'm on your free tab right now and I'm looking at stuff and I didn't even give you my email address. How's that? But now you and I get to spend more virtual time together with no gate. I love it. And something else, I've got a little bit of a community project that I wouldn't mind some help with actually. I think it's awesome when you're in the middle of your life and you figure this persuasion stuff out and it's a bit painful because you realize how much you've lost out on already. but I think it's beyond painful to recognize that this is a skill people need at the start of their career, not in the middle.

25:21And I mean, even the World Economic Forum has recently put out a report putting leadership and social influence, which is another word for ethical persuasion, at priority number three for businesses to develop leading up into the next five years. And so I'm happy to donate some of my time to help schools, business schools, universities, to, you know, I'll do a presentation and introduce young adults, let's say 15 and up, into the science of persuasion. A lot more than we've done today to give them some clues. Because think about it, you know, they're going to try and, you know, enter the workforce and they're going to try and write a job application without knowing how to be persuasive.

26:03They're going to go, if they get invited even, they go to an interview without knowing how to be persuasive. And goodness, that might actually get hired, now they're going to have wage negotiations without knowing how to be persuasive. The trajectory of their life will be altered by this. And I think it would be cool if we can catch them at the beginning of their journey instead of in the middle. Patrick Vanderberg, your book is How to Hear Yes More Often. Your website is ethicalpersuasion.com.au. Patrick, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks very much for having me.

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