#725: Barbara Corcoran — How She Turned $1,000 into a $5B+ Empire: PR Stunts, Sales Techniques, Critical Early Wins, Fighting Trump, and Becoming a Real Estate Mogul

25:30About seven years later, when we had a rental business, we had, I think, 14 agents at the time renting apartments all around Manhattan. He came home one night and I was making pasta for his three kids who I became their mom. and he said, I'm going to marry a secretary. I couldn't believe it. I thought I was hearing things. That bitch, I thought in my med, but I said, Tina? They were married within seven months. It just broke my heart, but more than broke my heart, it really broke my confidence because, remember, he had found me at a diner. He taught me I could have my own business. He loaned me the money.

26:05He took me out of my hometown. He was a man 10 years older than me. He knew this way around the world. so all of a sudden that's gone my legs were taking out from under me and I thought I couldn't live the year almost is how I felt at the stupid time what a waste of energy anyway just about a year later I think I was finished off on a Thursday watching Ray and Tina in my old office together holding hands and making eyes it broke my heart so the very next morning I arrived in I said we're ending the business today Ray we're going to cut it in half I said you pick the first person I'll pick the second until we have them cutting.

26:38And five minutes later, I took my seven people and I said, guess what? On Monday, we're going to move. Where? It's a surprise. And it was a surprise. But in those days, Tim, honestly, you could get a phone installed on a weekend, a great advantage. Ma Bell came on that weekend and stole phone lines. I had a landlord who rented me the 11th floor, which was just like our previous eighth floor. So I had a space to open it. And I was able to buy all my desks down on 42nd Street, and the guys ran it up to Midtown, put it in place. It was a different world. But on Monday, I was open for business, and that was the Corcoran Group.

27:14That was the first day of the business. And I named it the Corcoran Group because I knew with my cash position and acumen, I was going to need a lot of help from the group to make it to the finish line, you know? So I'm going to pick up on that very briefly, but I have two follow-up questions. One is related to the landlord. But before I get there, I was listening to Diary of the CEO, your interview on that show, which was excellent. Thank you. Absolutely. It was very vulnerable, very powerful. And one thing stuck out to me that I wanted to ask about, and maybe it'll be a dead end, but when you were describing the, I don't want to say betrayal, maybe that's a strong word.

27:48Maybe it is an appropriate word. It's life. Yeah, it's life. But what you said that struck me is, I don't blame him. Something like that. And I wanted to ask you if you meant that, or if you could say a little bit more about that. And this comes back to my perception that you very rarely take the victim perspective. You use it in some way. But I'm curious what you meant by that when you said, I didn't blame him. Well, you have to realize Tina was five years younger than me. I was 30 when he left me. Tina was 25 or so, prettier than me, much prettier, had long blonde hair. She was far more feminine than I ever was.

28:27And she was quiet and she adored Ray. So how could you blame them? They fell in love. They had three children together after they were married. I mean, they were clearly in love, but I couldn't blame them. I mean, I would have fallen in love with Tina myself if I was Ray. Probably would have helped them out the door, you know? No, I didn't have a grudge, honestly. I was tremendously hurt, as we all are when we're rejected. And I was at the age where I was thinking I should start getting serious about marriage, but I didn't have anybody. So I was, you know, I had that moment where I was hurt, but I didn't blame him.

29:06No, he did the right thing. He did me a great favor. Without him, I wouldn't have gotten started. Probably I would have found some other sucker to give me a thousand dollars. I don't know. But he was there, the one that did it. Now, you were good at spotting talent, and we're going to come back to that point. What do you think it was that Ray saw in you? Enthusiasm. Enthusiasm. What type of enthusiasm? There's so many different species of enthusiasm. I was a happy girl. I saw the bright side of things, which I have always done. My whole family was pretty positive, you know? I had good positive role models.

29:39But I was highly enthusiastic, very talkative. It wasn't my first job, remember, when Ray met me. He couldn't look at me and realize I had been working since 11. And I was comfortable in my skin. I was flirting with the guys at the counter to get the bigger tips, because that's how you get bigger tips. I knew the ropes, so to speak. I looked like a young girl. I wasn't so young inside. I think he saw me as a fresh, happy person who wasn't shy. And I made him happy. He was a bit of an introvert himself. A little bit of darkness in him that I didn't have in myself. Yeah. So he wanted something to offset that, to counterbalance it.

30:18Yeah, we're pretty opposite. We're pretty opposite in that way. Yeah. The landlord you mentioned, who I guess gave you a floor, was that, and I might get the pronunciation wrong here, but was that Johnny Campagna or was that someone else? That was John H. Campagna. There we go. John H. Campagna. As he always pointed out. He always pointed that out. Yeah, John Campagna. Now, he's a handsome man. Wow, is he handsome. So how does he fit into this story? He did me a great favor. I had two roommates on East 86th Street, and I was operating my first business out of my apartment, as so many people do.

30:53It's another story. I won't go on a different road. But I got lucky in that somebody called me one day, and I could smell the person on the phone wasn't who they said they were. I could just feel it. And as it turns out, that lady posing as a customer represented the largest relocation company in New York. and I've sensed something and I gave her a dog and pony show all day, like the perfect agent in New York. And she fell in love with me and she gave me all her business. She said, you know, I'm not who you think I am. I said, oh, really? I knew she was somebody else. And then she started shoveling me business.

31:32So as a result of that, getting back to John Campagna, John H. Campagna, She started shoveling all these young people from Citibank, young guys. And I would meet them in my apartment and show them apartments. I said, come to 86th Street. It was like turning over pancakes. They were coming so fast at me. And so I was showing them apartments. I had my routine raking in the commissions. And that was going on probably for three or four months. And then Mr. O 'Rourke, the super, reported me to Mr. Campagna, the landlord, that he had a prostitute in the building. And I get it because I had spent my first check on a brand new coat at Bergdorf Goodman's, my first commission check,$340.

32:13And I looked like a fancy lady. I knew it. And so I got eviction proceeding. I found a note on my door, you know, big red print. They put it's really a public embarrassment. Eviction notice for prostitution. But why I say it was a favor, I knew I had paid my rent. I knew I was quiet. I thought it maybe was a mistake, but then when I thought about it, I thought, I bet he thinks of a prostitute because of all the guys in the apartment all the time. So I went and visited him in his office, and he was very buttoned up, did not like me when I walked in. I explained that I was not a prostitute. It took me a while to realize that, talking to him.

32:52You think I'm a prostitute? I was almost a nun. I'd be the last person to be a prostitute, you know? That's how I explained it. He was Catholic, fortunately, knew what a nun was. Yeah. And then I explained to him how Mr. Cifuni on the next block, another Italian, I did it on purpose, was renting his apartments like hotcakes when I knew Mr. Campagna had eight empty. And I said, he's renting his apartments like hotcakes because I was smart enough to tell him to build a wall in the L-shaped living room and call it a one-bedroom and den. So he's renting the same square footage as you for$40 more a month than you're getting on your plain one bedroom.

33:29It was the idea I had for Mr. Cifuna, and I shared it with Mr. Campania. He said, you have the listings on all my apartments. I got it. I didn't even think of it as a sales call. I thought it was a defense call, but I left that building. He fired his agent who he had worked with for years. I can't recall his name now, but I became his exclusive agent, and that was the first real exclusive agency I got. It was so easy with his listings because I could get the city bankers in my apartment, go in the elevator, and rent them an apartment. Easy peasy, you know? So that was a fortunate happening. Fortunate happening.

34:04I didn't expect to land that way. So then you end up with the founding of Corcoran Group. After Ray and Tina. Yes, definitely. And you know you're going to need help, but I would imagine it was perhaps challenging to recruit in the beginning. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm wondering what the key was to getting people you thought could be successful to join your company in the early days. What was the pitch? What was the trick? I had a great gimmick, two great gimmicks I used. When I advertised in the want ads, I would never put position open a salespeople wanted. That's what everybody put. Salespeople want, salespeople want it.

34:42I made my caption in double height. I used up my lineage that way. One empty desk. Rare. People want what they can't get, you know? Yeah, yeah. And so people would call on the one empty desk, but I didn't say make high commissions. I didn't even address the money piece. I put join a company that's a lot of fun and cleaning up and having a blast. I just trimmed up our team that we had, which was true. I wasn't exaggerating on that, but it brought in a lot of calls. Okay. Then when I was opening up a much bigger office and needed to hire like 15, 20 agents at once, I had even a better gimmick. I put, learn everything you want to know about real estate career night.

35:25It sounds common now, but then they never heard of career nights. Nobody did them. And then as the 40 people would come into my career night, I had a pencil in one hand, a pen in the other. And if they look good, I gave them a pen to sign in. And then I dog and pony them showed, made them fall in love with me, putting on my charm in every way. They all wanted to work for me. And they'd call me the next day. I'd say, if you have any interest, call me tomorrow. And when they call, I would just see if they were in pencil or pen and know who I wanted to talk to. So I would talk to maybe 30 % of the people that were at the career night and invite them in for an interview.

36:02And then I would try to figure out if they have the capacity to sell, which is no easy feat. It's hard to recruit salespeople, very hard. Very hard to recognize the talent that you need to do it. Did you view being a woman in that business at that time as an advantage, a disadvantage, a mixture of both? How did you think about that if you thought about it? I have to say, when I walked into my first real estate board of New York meeting and didn't see a woman in the room of the business owners, I was a little intimidated. But when I tried to talk to the sons of rich guys, that's basically who the trade was owned by.

36:38They didn't work very hard. They were cocky. I spotted the cockiness and I knew I could beat them at their own game. It's a weird thing about cockiness. It's a blinder, like I'm cool, I'm cool, but they're never looking or hungry for other things. I was desperate, not only hungry, I was desperate to even like get a first sale into my belt. It was an advantage. It was an advantage because I could then walk into the rooms and I always wore short red skirts with my jackets and I had great legs and I knew it. and everybody would turn to look at because a girl stood out. You didn't have to be special.

37:15You just had to be a girl and you were different. But as competing with them, I never saw myself as a woman. I never saw it as a disadvantage or a real advantage. I saw myself as a competitor, just a competitor. And boy, if they treated me badly or spoke down to me or didn't give me any credence that I could possibly make it in their world, they thought I was a passerby. I would say to myself, you just wait. I'm going to become your biggest rival. I knew that right from the beginning because I was very competitive by nature and I hated the insult. It was like, send me back to second grade where the kids were laughing at me.

37:53It was too raw. Even though I was much older, it was too raw, you know? And so it fired me up. It fired, it was the best thing in the world. If I had walked into a world of women, all competing and also all being good, I don't think I would have been very successful. I think the men helped me. I just had to show them I knew what I was doing or would learn what I was doing.

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39:19So you had this attitudinal advantage, right? I mean, you had this competitive drive. Tim, let me stop you for a minute. I have to say you are a wonderful interviewer. thank you i am shocked at how much you know about me it's almost intimidating no really nobody takes the time good for you over prepare for sure yeah thank you so much before but i add my compliment thank you okay i really appreciate that okay i mean it very much thank you thank you i take it seriously i enjoy doing this and i also value your time so i yeah i appreciate it so you had this attitudinal advantage you had this competitive drive you also later became very well known for systems.

39:59And I'm wondering, as someone with dyslexia, what did you do differently? Because you're in an information business on some level. You're in a people business, but you have to handle listings. You have to handle, I'm sure, plenty of written material. What types of rules or systems did you have in place for yourself so that you could function at a high level? How did that work? I don't think dyslexia eliminates the ability to organize. I don't know. I've never read about it. I got my organizational system from my mother, who ran our two-bedroom house like a boot camp. You know, everything had its place.

40:31Anything she had to repeat, she made a system for it. If she had to polish on white Bucks shoes to go to Catholic school in the morning, she used a thick paintbrush and painted them on a radiator, turned them over to dry, painted the other side, and even painted the radiator white after a while when she realized it was dripping on the silver radiator. She painted it white to get rid of that problem. Everything my mother approached, she approached that way. So everyone in my family, my nine siblings and I, I grew up very organized, very organized. We knew what organization was. We were part of her system.

41:01And so I made my salespeople part of my system. I just mimicked my mother in every way. But as a dyslexic, you have a problem with numbers, as you know, and words. So I didn't use them. I had no numbers, no words. I color-coded everything. I'd color-coded file cabinets, listing cards. One bedrooms were one color. Two bedrooms were another color. When everybody else in the industry had white, I had buttons on things that signified things. I just did a visual organization of anything I touched. Okay. And even right down to the memos that went out to congratulate people. I didn't use words. I found pictures and put them together and it would make them laugh, you know?

41:40So, but they got the message. So everything was visually done. And very much like my mother, if I had to do it twice, I said, I'm not never going to do this again. How could I repeat it and have it automatically in place. Everything was automatic. Everything. It was really, if you walked into my company, I'm probably most proud. I shouldn't be most proud of it because it's systems. How excited can you get about systems? But I love them. I was so proud of the company, how well run it was, because it was like, you'd swear like a Nazi was running.

42:15I get very excited about systems. So I share the, oh yes, very much. I get very excited about systems and automating. So we have that in common. You have the automation for these repetitive tasks or processes. You also have the chutzpah and the talent of, say, driving the press and getting attention. What other innovations in this industry really paid off in the early days, like the first handful of years of competing against these old boy networks where they have committees and they have to get approvals, then they have the lawyers and so on and so forth. What were some of the ways that you experimented and innovated in the first five years, let's just say, if anything comes to mind?

43:03I think it all comes under the umbrella of urgency. If I thought of an idea on a Monday, I had it on the street by Tuesday. Big guys couldn't do that. And if I thought of an idea, I asked myself, is anyone else doing it? And no one else was doing it. I said, let's give it a shot. And, you know, you try five things. One thing works. Okay. But I kept trying different things, different things. There was a system in New York, which is unofficially still the system, even though people don't really acknowledge it, where no one shared listings. Everybody corral listings, kept the good ones for themselves.

43:37Everybody in New York was signed up for that. There was no MLS. And I declared that we were going to start sharing our listings. My salespeople almost killed me. Why should we share? Nobody else is sharing. Which you can understand because people will follow us. Customers will like it and people will follow us. Well, they didn't follow us. And it took two years before the customers even caught on to it. And then the Real Estate Board of New York, all my competitors, I don't even know what the motion is called, but they filed me at the real estate board to like in a virtual real estate lawsuit without the money to stop me from doing business in the state because they said I falsely advertised because I was advertising like crazy what I call central listing system because we had no MLS.

44:18So I call it central listing system. If you list with us, you will hit every broker in the community. If you list your competitor, you'll hit 3%, which was true. Well, they told me the way they interpreted was different. They kind of thought that I was saying to everybody that they were no good, which that kind of was, I guess. But they all banned against me and wanted to throw me out of business. And that was tenuous. It was a rough time. But that was something trying to do things differently that didn't pay off so good, really. If I had a do-over again, I wouldn't have done it. You wouldn't have done it.

44:52No. Not worth the hassle. We can talk about all sorts of highlights. And I do want to talk about some highlights, but let's talk about briefly homes on tape. Could you describe your experience with homes on tape? Yeah. Was that good? I made a juicy$1.225 million in one day, three hours to be exact. That was another idea they said I couldn't do. Huh? They were wrong. There was no law against it. I checked the law. Okay. What I did was it was a terrible real estate market. It was when interest rates in the early eighties, I think, late 70s, were 18%. So no one bought real estate in New York. Nobody would dare buy unless you had all cash and very few people.

45:31So I thought of this idea. I copied it from a puppy sale that I went to with my mother. I guess I won't give you that detail. I'll tell you how I applied it to real estate. Wait, wait, wait. I'm so curious. Wait, no, tell me the story. So puppy sale, what happened at the puppy sale? The puppy sale, which my mother took us to, to visit our grandpa wore down in New Jersey, the shoreline. My mother made us sit and watch the farmer next door who was having puppies, Jack Russell's for sale. And she had maybe eight or nine puppies to sell. And there was a long line of fancy cars, cars I had never seen so fancy.

46:07They're all from New York City, my mother's told us. All these fancy city people have come to buy the puppies. There must have been 30 cars waiting to get a puppy. And there was so much fighting in the line when the last puppy was taken because there wasn't enough puppies to, you know, to give everybody a puppy, of course. My mother said, she's really a smart woman. Watch her operate. And I remember thinking, operate, like she's going to cut the puppies up because I was young enough. Not to know what that is. But it was her operation. She did this regularly. She had a bunch of dogs and she would oversubscribe the appointments.

46:38They all had appointments. They left angry. I had 88 apartments owned by Prudential Insurance and Bernie Mendick. They couldn't have an auction. They said they had to get rid of them. What could I do? I looked at them and realized they were not saleable. They had no kitchens. They were dumpy. They were in the wrong buildings. They were just really the losers in the marketplace. And so I went back and said, I couldn't sell it. Nobody could sell it. I couldn't think of any way to sell it unless they let me do an auction. They said, no auctions. And then Bernie Mendick, talk about positive reinforcement, great developer.

47:10He said to me, Barbara, you're such a smart girl. You'll figure it out. And I thought, I will. And I went home and I copied the puppy sales. So I priced the 88 apartments exactly alike, different floors, different locations, views, no views, no kitchens, did have a kitchen, had a back wall, whatever. Equalize them like the puppies. And I offered them for the same price, which now you'll say, why wouldn't people buy them? But not a great price at the day, but they were all flat priced at$59 ,900, inch under$60 ,000. And I had almost 180 people waiting for me the morning of the puppy sale, the morning of the one price sale.

47:45one price sale i called it and you should have seen the couples the individuals running i had a bus waiting for them for the east side and west side it said deals on wheels deals on wheels and they took them to the west side took them up the upper east side everywhere and they grabbed those apartments and then i had a great well i should just really say a scam i had the contract of sales loaded up big stacks of them with signatures on i signed them all and then i had new stack with no signatures. I go, visa taken, sign the contract here. People walk in, sign them so fast. And I sold them all like within close to three hours, two and a half hours.

48:27And Bernie Mendick wrote me a check. How did you advertise it? And I opened two new offices. I didn't advertise it. I had no money. Or how did you get the word out to people? How did they learn about the sale? The best way, who doesn't like a secret? I didn't have the money to advertise, but I wouldn't if anyway, if I had the money, I told my salespeople only bring you two best customers, pick of the litter. You get there early. Your customer is going to get the best pick, get there early, but don't you dare bring more than two customers that aren't enough to go around. Now, two times, I guess I had at the time, 150 salespeople, that's 300 people.

49:03That's much more than I had apartments. And so it guaranteed me a line and they were all there. Were people upset? You betcha they were like, I didn't get my, I was going to call it a puppy again. I didn't get my apartment. I didn't get my apartment. And you might ask, why would the person last in line who got the runt of the litter, a horrible apartment, who wants it? Why would they buy it? Because they could turn around and see another hundred people in line. Because in sales, everybody wants what they, your short supply, it's kind of like one empty desk, the same theory. You make it tight. You can't always get it.

49:34You know, so people reach for it. People love scarcity. They love it. That was the word I was groping for and couldn't remember. Scarcity. Yeah, scarcity. And on the talent side, I want to ask you about Esther Kaplan. Am I saying that correctly? Wonderful Esther. So wonderful Esther, when you first met her, it seems like, I'm just going to read here. This is from CNBC. She was a petite woman dressed in a little knit suit with little pearl buttons and spoke so softly, I could barely hear what she was saying. I had already learned the great salespeople were typically loud and enthusiastic. So I handed it to my card and told her I'd call her if something opened, having no intention of calling her.

50:09So what changed? Why was she to be seen again? How did that actually get salvaged? Boy, thank God. She opened her purse when I gave her my business card to put business card in her purse. And that was all the difference because she opened that purse with her little click. Even the click of her purse was concise. You know, she was one of those. And she opened it up and she looked for a place to file the card. and she tilted her toward me like you are where you are now. And she had a file cabinet inside it, not a metal one, but she had partitions with labels in her little purse. And I'll tell you, I'd never seen that in my life, and I've never seen it since.

50:50I thought to myself, which I've said before, but I remember consciously thinking, I'd like to put my business in that lady's purse. And I told her I'd open a position for her. I teach her everything I knew. She'd be my right-hand person, blah, blah, blah. I never expected her to make a sale, honestly. She did. She was a consistently hard worker in Seoul, which she needed to, because I didn't want to pay her to help me out. I didn't have the money. But I told her I'd give her 10 % of my business if she would be my right-hand man, and I'd teach her everything I know about selling. And that was a wonderful partnership.

51:22I could have never built that business without Esther. She was my exact opposite. She did everything well that I didn't do well, and I did everything well she didn't do well. That was a lucky day. Yeah, what a lucky day. And lucky she tilted her purse. Did you find out if she did it accidentally or on purpose? I'm having lunch with her tomorrow. She claims now, and she's very elderly, I'm hoping she makes the lunch. She said her purse wasn't nearly as organized as I make it up to be. I said, it was, Esther. It really was. She goes, no, it was. So we argue about that all the time. But she likes it.

51:53She says, even if it's a story, I like it. But it's not a story. Just simply remember what that purse looked like. I could draw you a picture. What were some elements of the secret recipe of teaching her everything you knew about sales? I mean, you're an excellent salesperson. What were some of the key elements of what you taught her about sales? How to assess a customer immediately when they're talking to you on the phone, immediately. And it isn't how much money they have to spend, what they're looking for, what part of town, whether you even have the listing possibly to show them. The whole thing was urgency.

52:26When do you need the apartment for? I taught her the golden question. in all sales. When do you need it for? Oh, we'd like to get in by Christmas. That's a decent answer. At least it has a timeline. Another answer, whenever we find the right thing, don't work with them. The best answer of all is I really have to find something within the month because I'm being transferred here. Terrific. What are you doing today? So to rate your customers based on need only, don't worry about another thing. Just do they need it and get out with them if they need it. And so I taught her how to pick the right customers to work with.

53:01And nothing unusual. I taught all my salespeople how to do that, how to qualify customers, how to rate them A, B, and C. A, immediate. B, sort of immediate. C, forget about it. Don't call them back. And I also taught her how to hustle, how to build a routine in showing customers. Show them one apartment that's terrible, or you could reverse it. Show them the apartment you think they'll buy first and they compare everything else to it. You know, there's certain sequences selling that you want to expose how to dress for the part, how to get away with not paying for the cab. Very important when you don't have money in New York city.

53:35How do you get away with that? Try to hang out with the men. They usually won't let a lady pay for the cab. So that's a bonus. You could line up eight apartments to show to a man, but if you're showing it to a woman, make sure the apartments are closed limited to three. Not because you're biased against women, but you had to make a cab fare. You know, all these little details, how to sequence what you show, what street, like 86th Street was a choppy street. So I always approached 86th Street, not from Lexington, where my office came from, but I always went to York and East End Avenue. It was quiet with the birds, with and then got out of the cab and walked them through that neighborhood up to 86.

54:17I wouldn't say, Well, maybe some people might call it scamming people, but presenting it as best you can. All those things are so important in sales. Super important. Thoughtfulness. Thoughtfulness in how you present and how, oh, and how to close. Yeah. How do you close? That's what I was going to ask. That's what I was going to ask. The very important thing, the reverse close, the best close in the world for any business. And it would start like this. Listen, today I'm going to show you a number of apartments. I don't expect you're going to like all of them, but they're all to be measured against one another.

54:48I'll show you a range of prices so you see the value. This way you're moving them from the prices that they had to have. You would have like a 10 % leeway. I'm going to show you all of this stuff. And I want you to promise me right up front you will not buy anything today. What do you mean I won't buy anything? Because I don't want you to be rash. Everything takes thought. You should really buy something you love. And even if you think you love it today, you cannot buy it the same day because it might not really be a love affair. Promise me you won't buy anything. I would have customers calling me and I panting and begging me to let them buy something.

55:23You know, it's a routine, right? It's sales, you know? But every customer was happy with what I sold them. Every customer referred their business. So I knew I was doing good and making everybody happy. It wasn't like I was selling anything bad. I always believed in what I sold or I wouldn't have shown it, you know? I just, I'm saying that because I don't want you to think I'm a bad person. No, I don't think you're a bad person. I mean, you've had very, very low, very low churn rate in your company and companies. And I don't think that for a second. And I'm curious about the aftercare. If you had any particular type of follow-up, like after you sell something to someone, after you sell a home, was there any type of call the day after or kind of protocol for that that you had within the company?

56:09Definitely. I bought a gift, which was from the salesman because I want them to get the repeat business. Those are my men. You know, I need that. Always sent a gift. I always had a lovely gift that wasn't too expensive, but we were making money so I could afford it. And the most important follow-up was the follow-up. I made sure that every three months they got a postcard from the salesman, but it had my face on it, my brand on it, saying, hello. I had cute little messages, really hokey now that I look back at it, but it's unimportant. What was important is I didn't have to open an envelope to find the message.

56:43They had to see it because it was on a postcard and it had a rhythm to it. Always like a steady drip, a steady drip. So it was hard for them to forget us. I remember I learned this lesson. I didn't do it the first one or two years, but I was at Lincoln Center one day having a lovely dinner with a friend and I sat next to a couple and they were talking about moving and they're trying to recollect the name of the agent right there, right next to me. And they would say, what was her name? Where did she wear butt? it. They had lived in this apartment like 15 years. And I thought to myself, oh my God, that's terrible.

57:19And I went right back and created the system to stay in touch with people. Because I saw what a loss it was. How much money did that mysterious agent lose that day? Probably a lot of money. They looked rich to me the way they were dressed. I learned the lesson at her expense, whoever she was. Yeah. Stay front and center in the mind of your customers. And what was the gift? We varied it. We started, I think, with a calendar. Everybody used a calendar, but my face was on it. Pretty ego-driven, don't you think? Why would somebody hang a calendar with my face on it? You're a pinup girl, maybe, but my face, ah!

57:54But at least they see who I was. Then we did bottles of wine, Beaujolais, if it was that time of year, a nice hearty red wine with a lovely handwritten note. I don't know what we did. We didn't do anything special, But the fact of the matter is we did it. And a lot of people didn't do it. It was the cadence. It was the steady drip. Yes, it was. It really was. So speaking of consistency, I've heard you mention that exercise is your therapy. You're very sharp mentally, physically. What does your exercise routine look like? What has it looked like over the years? Nothing special, but what it does have is consistency.

58:30And that's the key to any exercise. I don't think it matters what you do. okay i've thought of taking up different kinds of exercises i never get to it but i have four appointments with a trainer well before i could afford it she'd be the last person i'd give up if i was going to the poor house a trainer that is at my door and i have no choice because if i had a choice i would never work out but there she is margaret who's been with me like now 15 years and I got to do it. So it's weightlifting, stretching, cardiovascular, a little bit of that. I get away with as little as I can. I don't like it.

59:06I've never liked a day of training in my life. I really don't like it. I love to give it up. I hurt my back a short while and she insisted on coming anyway. I'm like, don't I get a break? But no. So you wish you could give it up, but you don't. So what do you get from the exercise? How would you explain that? First of all, you have your own time. I have an hour just for me, splurging on me. It's all about me. And I don't ever have any time like that. I don't make the time. What I also get is relaxation. I run hot. I'm, ooh, calms me down, calms you down. I get vanity. I look firm. I look good in clothes.

59:45People say you have a great figure. So I get all the flattery that's good for my ego. And most importantly, I find that when I don't exercise, it's really a question when you don't Even when I go on vacation and give myself a break for a week, I don't think as well. I think it gives you a great ability to think clearly. I really do. Exercise and pulling weeds, in my mind, are the two best therapies in the world. You really don't need much more than that. You straighten out all your problems that way. So you're building strength. And part of strength, in my mind, is also how you contend with fear if and when it presents itself.

1:00:22You do not strike me as a fearful person. And I want to bring up something I found. This is in New York Magazine. And I want to ask you about this. Here's the paragraph. Corcoran and Trump haven't always seen eye to eye. In 1994, Corcoran accused Trump of not paying millions of dollars of commissions to tour brokers who brought him key Hong Kong investors of his Riverside South project. I think a lot of people are intimidated by many things in life. Certainly a lot of people would be intimidated by somebody like Trump, but it seems like you were willing to fight. And I'm curious how you developed that, or if that has been something from childhood that you've just carried forward.

1:01:01But a lot of people know what they should do, or the moral thing to do, and they're afraid to do it because they're afraid of some type of punishment or someone who is intimidating. And I'm wondering if you could just speak to that, maybe to the example, but it could be another example and your willingness to not back down. Well, that's a good example because he's an intimidating man. He's a bully. He's a real live bully in every way. With him, I wasn't scared for a second. I had never had a lawsuit. I didn't know how to hire an attorney. I didn't know what it was about. I'm not a fighter. You got me wrong on that, Tim.

1:01:38I don't like to fight. I'll walk a mile to avoid a fight. But when someone insults me. It brings out the fight in me. I don't know where that comes from. I guess same thing with the competitors being insulting to me. I know where that comes from. When my father would drink and he was a social drinker, so it wasn't a big issue, but it was an issue. He would be abusive with his mouth like a bully. And he was the loveliest man in the world and would turn into a bully. I hated him for that. I hated how he talked to my mother. I hated how he talked to his children. And so just tip into that. So when Donald is like, you're not seeing a penny, I'm like, I turn into a killer.

1:02:14It's insulting to think I'll really roll over on that. And thank God how life happens. It was the first year I made a real profit in Horker Group. Because I never made money. Because I was always throwing my money back in and living so cheap so that I could afford to open offices. Always the money went to the business. The money went to the business. It never came to me. and that year I had more money than I could spend. I had like over a million dollars in profit the year before, the many years before that either had losses or 100 ,000 but it cost me$500 ,000 to sue but I had the cash. Think about that.

1:02:49So I felt powerful that I got the money to fight it and I'm certainly not gonna walk away because you know what my thinking is? I'm walking away from a well-fought fight. You resent it and regret it for the rest of your life. I didn't wanna be that girl who said, You son of a bitch. How did you get away with it? You regret when you don't confront things, I think, in anything, but particularly with a moral fight. And in my mind, that was morals, all about morals. I earned the money. You signed, you'd give it to me, and you're not giving it to me. You're suing me instead. Oh, no, I don't think so.

1:03:21But what other lesson I learned at that juncture, just as important as a willingness to fight is get the right help. I never had a lawsuit, as I just said. And I interviewed the top law firm. I think I had five or maybe four, maybe four is more realistic. The four top attorneys and the four litigious firms in town. And I wanted to hire the toughest guy thinking I need a tough guy to beat this tough guy. But I didn't conclude there. I met an attorney, I forget which firm, Skadden Harps, I think he was with, Richard Seltzer. He's now retired. And he had the most solid thinking. And I use my common sense to say, which attorney is not saying I'll win, but which attorney is saying why he'll win.

1:04:04And this guy told me why he was going to win and the strategy. And it was so simple. I said, you've got the case. And he was a showman in court, like show business. And his thinking was so smart. And he didn't give Donald an inch. And he called me after the lawsuit was won, like two weeks later, and said, I need your permission to work for Donald Trump. Donald Trump, what are you working? He said, he's hiring me for a major lawsuit. He said, it's a conflict of interest. I said, I got my money on the way. So no, no problem, you know? That is incredible that it only took two weeks. No, to call the attorney.

1:04:40Oh, I wasn't getting my money. No, I'm so sorry. I misrepresented. Donald Trump took about two weeks, I guess, because my attorney called me like two weeks later. Can I represent Donald Trump? But it took me five years to get the commission because the judge, he said he didn't have the money, which was true. He's near bankruptcy. So the judge made him pay me the commission of$55 ,555 installment payments for five years or whatever, how many years it took. And you know what? The best part of getting those commission checks, you've done such research. Maybe you read this, but I got to tell it because it's my favorite thing.

1:05:13Yeah, please. I sent him a giant bouquet of flowers when I got the first$55 ,000 hand delivered to me by a messenger. I said, thank you, Donald. Hand wrote it. I really appreciate the check. and I sent him the note with the same messenger and he took them back with the flowers and he sent it back to me and he put a big, he always wrote in thick ink, you know, and he put on it, rejected and sent the flowers back to me. What is that stupid? But then I had the flowers. So I send them flowers for the next four or five, whatever many years it was and flowers that I liked because I knew he sent them back every month.

1:05:52Rejected. That's the best part of the lawsuit. Oh, that is so good. That is amazing. I want to come back to something you said at the beginning, which is you'd walk a mile to avoid a fight. And I think this is really important to revisit because I'm a fighter. You are? You don't seem like it. Well, let me take that back. I've historically been a fighter, very competitive, and I think to a fault where I've been willing to justify fights based on principle more often than has been helpful. And as I've gotten older, that has changed. Were they really based on principle, you think? That's a very good question.

1:06:28I think it was a certain sense of moral outrage about some type of situation. So for instance, if I'm not going to name the company, but I did a deal with a very large company and it being a public company. And at one point they were retaining me to help with consulting and a various number of other things. I hit their performance metrics, and they were like, yeah, we're not going to pay you. And I was like, but I hit your metrics. Wow. That's like Donald Trump. Yeah, they basically said, look, we have 20 in-house counsel. If you want to fight, let's fight. And I was like, what? Really? And that pissed me off.

1:06:59It had to scare you. Yeah, of course. And it's intimidating because I'm paying out of pocket by the hour, and even if I have a retainer, but I have ended up realizing that for me, preserving my energy for the things that are really high leverage in matter is so critical that I want to avoid fights when I can. I will still fight in certain instances, but how do you choose which fights to walk away from and which ones to engage with? Because I do know people, for instance, who are constantly in lawsuits and it's just a waste of their lives. They're not happy people, by the way. Those people that are constantly in lawsuits.

1:07:34Yeah. How I assess them is probably backwards. I think how much energy is it going to take for me? Because it's always negative energy. It's never positive. Yeah. So I think how much energy is it going to take for me for how long? And I take a quick guess and I make my decision there, not on whether I could win or not, but just, is it worth the energy? Is it worth the energy? You do have to stand up for yourself, like on that lawsuit with Trump, there was a lot of money at stake and certainly that entered into it. I don't know if I would sue them for$10, you know, a lot of money on the table, but I will almost always walk away because it's never worth my energy.

1:08:14You don't really win. That's what I've concluded. Now that I'm older, I've watched people, not so much myself, but other people that I know well in business, they never win. And the people, like you said, the people who are litigious all the time, righteous to just even worse. They're always unhappy. Always. It almost fuels their unhappiness. You know, what a waste. Yeah, I agree. So this is going to be a bit of a left turn, but I'm so curious. In the course of doing some research I found on this website in the UK, this is express.co.uk. Oh yeah. So Shark Tank businesswoman Barbara Corcoran has offered fans a rare glimpse of her mobile trailer for a video with TikTok star.

1:08:57I think it's Caleb, perhaps Simpson. Cute guy. Yeah. So it says that you use this humble Los Angeles trailer a few weeks per year. What is the story behind the trailer? I don't know anything about it. I'm just wondering how you use it, why you use it, if you use it. No, I do use it in more than a few weeks a year, probably five weeks a year, maybe. I shoot my show of Shark Tank in LA and I always stay at the Beverly Hills Hotel which is so luxurious because they pay for it I'd never pay the price all right they put me up there my next door neighbor in New York said I've always wanted to buy a house in LA I said that's funny I'm thinking the same thing why don't we buy it together so we went out there to buy together her husband wouldn't let her buy it and then I took a car and I drove around and I found a trailer park and I fell in love with it.

1:09:45That's all. I was trying to turn on US1, which is hard to turn on. It takes forever to make a U-turn. So I took it right up the driveway and I was in a trailer park. And it's only a half hour from my studio. And I went around and looked at all the trailers and picked out, I thought, the best position. Because you can always change inside, but you can't change the location. And I met a lovely woman who owned the home and I asked her if she'd like to sell it. She said no. She had no intention of selling, maybe in a few years. And so I called the local broker. I never liked the homes I saw there that she showed me.

1:10:16And I went back to the lady. I said, what if I give you a life estate? You could come and visit whenever you want. Would you move out? And she said, yes. Sorry. Say it one more time. If you gave her what? A life estate. What is that? A right to use it for two weeks a year. Any two weeks she wanted. She's been using it two weeks a year. She's so happy. She brings her family. She's had reunions there as tiny as it is. and she sold it to me. Now I paid for that trailer$800 ,000, which everybody in the trailer park said a moron from New York just paid$800 ,000 for a trailer. I purposely overpaid by a hundred thousand, but it seems so undervalued to me.

1:10:53I said, what do I care about? I'm going to use it for 10, 20 years. What do I care about? A hundred thousand, which is true in buying real estate. What do you care about it? If you have the money to spend, but you know, I put the place into a spin, not because of me. I just bought it the right time. I put another 200, maybe$300 ,000 into it. And now it's worth like one nine, maybe two, not a lot when you're in New York and hear crazy prices, but for that trailer park, it's a lot of money, but I have a full view of the ocean. I'm like at the Four Seasons Hotel, flowers, I have my garden. It couldn't be more beautiful.

1:11:29and so it was one of the best decisions I really made definitely what else led you to fall in love with the trailer park because I imagine a lot of people listening they're like oh my god like I would never imagine that Barbara would fall in love with this setting and this particular setup the view sounds amazing the garden and the plants sound amazing but what else if anything led you to fall in love with it I very much fell in love with my neighbors I'll tell you my neighbors right up and down the street. You never get to know the neighbors on the other streets. So there's like a total of 12, 13 houses.

1:12:02I know most of them. I know most of them well. I have dinner at the house. They come to my house for dinner. But why I like them is they were just like my mother and father. They were simple, blue collar people with real values that were as lovely as a day is long. The loveliest people in every way. They cared for my trail when I wasn't there. Let me know if there was trouble, a storm coming, making sure I was battened down. I mean, if I tried to find neighbors in New York City around my very expensive apartment to even give me a pound of sugar, I'd be waiting forever. But these neighbors are so genuine and so real.

1:12:39They're all from the Hollywood business, but they're camera hands, stage hands, ladder people, holding the script people. They all had these menial jobs that most people seem menial. They love their jobs. They were so happy to be in Hollywood. They're always talking about it. They've had happy lives and they share them with me. So I could never move away just based on my neighbors. Even my trailer blew up or something. I would just move right back on the same block. They're really lovely people, really. And why did you deliberately overpay by$100 ,000? Was that to get the deal done or was there another reason?

1:13:13I've always paid for any real estate I want. I always overbid. I even get my construction jobs done by overpaying. Two summers ago, there was so much construction work in Fire Island where I bought a new home, but it was dilapidated. I had to rebuild it. Last minute, the builder said to me, I can't handle it. You're going to have to wait a year. I said, really? Why is that? He said, well, I can't get the help. I can't get the materials. It's COVID. He gave me a list so long, I was suspicious. I said, what if I gave you$200 ,000? Could you get it done this month? And he said, yes. Didn't even have to think about it.

1:13:48Yes, he said. And my house was done in a month. The house that was supposed to take nine months was done in a month. So I always am willing to overpay. And you know who I really learned that from? Well, maybe didn't learn it from, but first heard it, and I've always often thought of it, was from Harry Helmsley. When he was the biggest landowner, big developer in New York, and owned all the best real estate and the best locations, I attended a speech by him. and somebody in the audience said something like, what's another tip? What's another tip of buying? How do you win the bid and everything?

1:14:19He says, I always overpay for everything I want. He said, because you forget about it, then you own it. And I thought, if Harry Helmsley, so rich, could overpay, I was stunned by that answer. And I always kept, I always overpaid and always bought real estate that wasn't for sale. Just by knocking on the door, you get exactly what you want. I love that house. Let me knock on the door. and you can often be two years early, but you could be persuasive with money. Absolutely. It works, works very well. Fire Island. And I love my homes. Yeah. Yeah. If you were going to give advice to yourself 30 years ago, let's just say, you can send back a time capsule to give some advice to yourself 30 years ago.

1:15:01Any advice come to mind? Tips or anything at all? Warnings? I would have told myself, because I had to learn this over a few years, hire happy people. I mean, I started hiring salespeople that were phenomenal from other firms. I turned into an ace recruiter, but they were miserable at home. They drove me crazy. You know, great salespeople have two personalities. Most of them have two personalities. So I had, for a number of years, I had miserable people that could suck the life out of you with their bitching and complaining. And then I decided one day, I'll never, ever hire anyone unhappy again.

1:15:38And that was like pulling the curtains back and the sky opened up for me in every way. It was fun at work every day. You know, complainers are a funny thing. They're part of all families, all business, all circumstances, but they're horrible. I just don't, you know, just complainers. They suck the life out of you. So I think I would have gotten tough on complainers right away and fired everybody who complained. You're out of here. You're out. You're out. Took me a while. I've heard you say, you know, complainers are thieves. That's stuck. That's exactly how they are. Yeah, that really stuck. So Barbara, let me ask you about Barbara in Your Pocket.

1:16:16So Barbara in Your Pocket is the top business channel on Patreon. Why did you start this? It certainly seems like a rare opportunity for people to get a lot of insight, a lot of tactical advice from someone who's been in the trenches, has had more adventures than you possibly count. misadventures too, I am sure. Why did you decide to do this? Two reasons. I wanted to make a team of entrepreneurs that I loved. And also, I was constantly giving advice, constantly giving courtesy meetings to people to help with the business, constant. And I would get to maybe seven, eight a week. And it was heartbreaking because I'd have 30 people who wanted help.

1:16:56So I just tried to think of a system where I could help a whole bunch of people at once, where they could interact with me, I could answer their questions and then also get help from the other entrepreneurs because all my entrepreneurs from Shark Tank help each other. I've molded them into a family. It's not one business. It's 130 businesses. They don't all help. Some of them aren't going to make it, but most really help. And so I wanted to bring people together to help each other. And I wanted to give them honest advice, no bullshit advice, not slicing my words, tell them what I really thought, what I really thought was a problem, whether they wanted to hear it or not.

1:17:30And I felt I could help them really building a business, but it's young. We just got started. I'm trying a new thing every week, a new approach to it, getting the feedback. They tell me what they like, what they don't like, what they want to do differently, but it's taken on a life of its own. It's only a month old, but I see it like boom, boom, boom, boom. I almost feel like I have my old Corker group back. It's not weird because I see their faces. They tell me their problems. I could see what's good about them. I could see what's bad about them right away. I feel like I'm building my Corker group all over again.

1:17:58I couldn't have done it without a large platform to do it that way. Yeah, Patreon's great. And I'll just read this for folks as well. So the Barbara in Your Pocket channel will be providing exclusive content created for entrepreneurs at every level. And you will be doing a deep dive into the topics most important in business today, giving an inside look at how you run your business, how you've run your businesses, and also working with your Shark Tank companies, as well as joining members live to answer their toughest questions. And I don't know if this is a tough question, but a question I have for you is, what gives you the most energy these days?

1:18:30What is it that drives you, feeds you energetically? Like what do you find really tips the balance for you? An entrepreneur coming back and saying, I made a difference that my suggestion to do this worked and they're successful because of it, which they're exaggerating. I realize that, but feeling or not feeling, knowing the feeling of having somebody come back as proof that I made a difference. If you think about it, I think maybe all of us just want to make a difference, you know? Totally. I don't know. That's a satisfying thing in life, but I like to make a difference with everybody by a smile, my hello, whatever I do.

1:19:05But my sweet spot is helping entrepreneurs. I know I make a difference. So having that confirmation come back at me makes my day. I almost have a hard time working after it's like, oh, I'm cool. I'm cool. I'm cool. Then I squeeze my head down and go, get back to work. That's most satisfying. Yeah. Without a doubt. So Barbara, just a few more questions. This has been so fun. Thank you again for the time. Really, really enjoyed this. If you could put a message, something on a billboard, a huge billboard, this is metaphorically speaking, just to get anything out to hundreds of millions of people, billions of people, could be a quote, could be a word, could be a question, could be an image, nothing commercial, but just something, something to make an impact.

1:19:47What might you put on that billboard? I'll tell you, it came right to my head the minute you started asking him a question. I would say you're a lot more capable than you think you are. People write themselves off so early. I mean, I saw people through my career, whether they be entrepreneurs who strike time, whether they be corporate group agents, come in with battle scars from life, not really thinking they deserve their success or could accomplish it. I saw losers become winners constantly, and they wrote themselves off somehow too early. So I think people are so much more capable than they think they are.

1:20:23So I would write you with capital Y, oh, you are more capable than you think you are. Maybe I could come up with something better, but that's how I feel. So I'm telling you that now. I think that's a solid answer. That is a great answer. Well, Barbara, thank you so much. People can find you on all social, and we'll link in the show notes for all of this. Barbara Corcoran, almost everywhere. Barbara, in your pocket, people can find it at patreon.com forward slash Barbara Corcoran. Is there anything else you would like to say before we come to a close. Very much so. Yes, I hope you give me a moment to...

1:20:53Of course, take all the time you want. I'm wondering. Thank you. No, it's short. Will you marry me? You know, I am on the market, so never say never. You are really? I am. You really are on the market? I am. Do you like a little bit older, babe? I'm not against it. I'm not against it. You know, maybe I spent a lot of time in New York. Maybe we'll have to have an espresso martini and see where things go. I don't know. If you're serious, I'm serious. Well, it would be great to meet in person at some point, no matter what. I do spend a lot of time in New York. I grew up there, got a lot of family.

1:21:33I'm kidding you, sort of, but I'm happy with your answer. Yes. Oh, thank you, Barbara. You're so good at what you do. You're so engaging. Thank you. And I've enjoyed this conversation so much. I really appreciate you taking the time. So thank you again. You built my confidence. Thank you. You're wonderful at what you do. I'm not just giving you a compliment back, but you really are wonderful. I do a lot of this, so you are. Thank you, Barbo. Well, have a wonderful weekend. Bye, Tim. Okay. You're going to throw kisses? I'm throwing kisses. Kisses and kisses. Bye-bye. Okay. Bye-bye. Hey, guys. This is Tim again.

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1:22:51And these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog slash Friday. Type that into your browser, tim.blog slash Friday. Drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by 8sleep. Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep and heat is my personal nemesis. I've suffered for decades tossing and turning, throwing blankets off, pulling the back on, putting one leg on top and repeating all of that ad nauseum.

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1:25:18I tell that story in the 4-Hour Workweek, but the tools then were absolutely atrocious, and I could only dream of a platform like Shopify. In fact, it was you guys, my dear readers, who introduced me to Shopify when I polled all of you about best e-commerce platforms around 2009, and they've only become better and better since. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or getting ready for your IPO, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run, and grow your business without the struggle. Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. It doesn't matter if you're selling satin sheets from Shopify's in-person POS system or offering organic olive oil on Shopify's all-in-one e-commerce platform.

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1:26:30Sign up for a$1 per month trial period at Shopify. That's S-H-O-P-I-F-Y. Shopify.com slash Tim. Go to Shopify.com slash Tim to take your business to the next level today. One more time, all lowercase, Shopify.com slash Tim.

1:26:51Thank you.