#875: The Random Show — Tim and Kevin Talk Retreats, Mortality, AI Predictions, Supplements, Rock Climbing at (Almost) 50, and Not Waiting for “Someday”

24:12Tim Ferriss:In any case, you know, I've been so, it's the right word. I mean, overjoyed sounds too dramatic, but I'll just say happy for you to watch your path with meditation because it seems like you get so much nourishment and grounding from it. And no offense, you're kind of a spaz. You're kind of a spaz. It's like you get excited about shit and then you drop stuff that is very well exemplified. And like, Tim, you got to buy this stock. And then you never tell me when you sell. And I'm like, oh, fuck, I'm fucked. Oh, hold on, hold on. No, no, no. Because you lost rent. You gave me a real winner. Yeah.

24:48Tim Ferriss:You should have held. It's fine. No. But anyway, literally Tim gives me this tip and I'm like, all right, I'm in. And then like a day and a half later, I'm down like, I know that's why you got to wait. The point of the story is I thought this meditation thing, just like every nine months, you're like, I'm moving to Android. And then I'm like, yeah, let me start the timer for two weeks before you come back to iPhone. I'm like, yeah, this meditation thing. Yeah, sure. We'll see. I give it two weeks. And you've stuck with it. Come on, come on, five years now. Yeah, it's really made me happy as your friend to see something that gives you that consistency.

25:30Tim Ferriss:That's it. There's nothing more to add. I've been really, I'm not sure of the right way to put it. I've just been very reassured by you having that constant in your life. One of the things I'm curious about, speaking of constants and kind of like how things change since we've known each other and you had hair and all that other shit. My hair wasn't great. Still got plenty of hair. It's not on my head. Yeah, exactly. The braids on there. The question I'm curious about is, I've been thinking a lot lately as I kind of march towards 50, what are the things that I've always said that I want to do that I'm just like, you know, I've got a thousand bookmarks on Instagram, like all these Japanese woodworking things.

26:09It's always woodworking.

26:11Tim Ferriss:It's always woodworking. You know this is how bad of my, speaking of the monkey mind and bouncing around. I literally have, for some reason, the algorithm is now giving me Like those motherfucking boats inside of bottles. Like people making the boats in the bottles. I'm like, am I going to be a boat in the bottle guy? Like, I don't know. Maybe. Like, I realize now, I think the next couple of decades, like, I want to stop bullshitting myself and stop saying like, hey, one day, one day I'll get in the Japanese woodworking. One day I'll do this and really start doing some things. Yeah. You've been really good because like you, archery, hunting, like the stuff that you've gotten into, you've gone deep on the last few years.

26:50are there any things that are on your kind of bucket list of things where you say one day you know you're busy with your podcast and i'll be like oh podcast shoot me in the head

26:59Tim Ferriss:it's it's fine and it's fun most of the time but it's so crowded and it's like man if 20 other people are trying to do the same job i don't want to do this job it is wild how many new podcasters there are out there well also they're also optimizing every little freaking thing all the thumbnails like what you need to know before your crypto crashes next week now and i'm like oh god yeah i just don't want to play that game and for me i would say the most top of mind is rock climbing actually i just did some outdoor rock climbing a couple days ago and i love rock climbing i was always for at least the last 15 years limited by my right elbow which i had surgically repaired so it's ready to go and i want to do some multi-pitch stuff in yosemite let's go yeah so i don't know if i want to say this all right that's a good start so you know who's a big rock climber yeah yeah he's very well built for it to yosemite i'm sure we should go okay he's like invite me to go up there and do some he looks like someone who would be good apparently he's amazing so and i'm like dude i can't go do multi-pitch with you yosemite he's like i just come out we'll have fun blah blah no that's how you end up fucked yeah exactly i did multi-pitch when i was like 24 and it was like three pitches like i didn't do yosemite yeah no that's a commitment yeah so the idea of having something like that to strive for having some type of physical goal like that for me is very helpful because just not dying like training to not die sooner than is necessary is not sufficient for me i'm just like that's such a depressing uninvigorating goal i'd much rather have something that you know has a deadline right it's like all right you need to be able to do x in the case of the archery it's like lancaster classic here's the date, you need to do this type of training and this type of volume with this type of deliberate practice in order to be prepared to train and then compete.

29:10Tim Ferriss:Right. Okay. Similarly, for something like a multi-pitch, it's like, okay, you can break that down. And I just enjoy doing that stuff. So let me ask you a question. The number two, I don't know if you saw this on my, the number two story I had was this guy, Michael Eckhart. Do you know who he is? No, no idea. Oh my God. Okay, so Huberman and Rogan and all these guys, they've talked about him publicly about this guy. He has won multiple pull-up world championships. And dude, when you watch him do a pull-up, he's kind of one of those guys that can bring the bar all the way down. And just like the typewriter and all that stuff.

29:45Yeah, like you know where you can walk with your feet and shit.

29:48Tim Ferriss:All the calisthenics stuff. Yeah, but he has a series of videos that teach you how to do finger strength training. and I bought his course and I'm doing this right now. All this, but you got me into that wooden device. The nug. The nug. So dude, you gotta watch his videos. They're amazing. Seriously, like Joe's really into them. Like this guy, his name is Michael Eckhart. You can find him on Instagram and it's all about grip strength, pull-ups. He's not big, but he's shredded. When I think about like in the next 10 years, like I don't need to be big, big. It's probably not. It's probably not. what you want.

30:25Right.

30:26Tim Ferriss:Especially for rock climbing. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you need to be lean, right? Like, and strong. And that's what I love about this. So I'm getting into, I'm doing these every single day. I have not one, two days in. I'm getting into it, you know? Tell us about the Nug, because that was something that you turned me on to. The Nug, I mean, I have it in my suitcase at the hotel here. It's just a simple little wooden device. It looks like a very large bar of soap with these different indentations carved into the sides. Like little finger indentations. Yeah, exactly. So you can use a carabiner to connect it to say a cable machine of some type in any gym.

31:03Tim Ferriss:And look, you could use a loading pin and all this, then the other thing, a daisy chain, but let's put that aside at a gym. You could use a cable and connect it through the loop with carabiner and work on your hand strength. And you brought this to Santa Fe when we were out there doing that meditation thing. I did. Yeah. It's literally something small enough to slip into my sweatshirt pocket. So So it's easy to travel with. I always travel with that and a band for multiple purposes for like something called DNS kind of core exercises. And I know DNS. Yeah. So I use a band for that and it's incredibly easy to travel with.

31:39Tim Ferriss:And then a handful of other things, something called an alpha ball, which I use for different types of kind of mobility. It's the size of like a very large, soft, soft ball. And all of this stuff fits into the corner of a suitcase. and then I'll do also something that maybe we haven't talked about called Abrahangs, Abrahamsen, Emil Abrahamsen, very well-known rock climber on YouTube, and Abrahangs. I'm writing this down right now. Abrahangs. Yeah, Abrahangs are pretty simple. I mean, it's partial body weight hangs in different positions for 10 seconds on, 50 seconds off for 10 minutes, and you do that twice a day, and it's very, very moderate in intensity.

32:24With like a wooden kind of rock climbing kind of like type of thing. Yeah, you could use a hangboard. Hangboard, yeah.

32:29Tim Ferriss:You could use, I mean, you could also use a pull-up bar depending on how you position your hands. And that's what I was doing in Santa Fe was that kind of stuff, 10 seconds on, 50 seconds off. And the endurance and strength gains that you get in your hands are just insane. I should say your lower arms. And it really helps. So I've been doing indoor climbing, but ultimately I'm like, you know what? There's a stretch goal, multi-pitch outdoor Yosemite. That's just, and I am deadly terrified of heights. Just talking like, look at my hands. Like I'm sweaty just talking about heights. When I watched Free Solo, my hands were sweating the entire time.

33:08Yeah. For people that haven't seen the documentary, even if you're not into rock climbing, like that is amazing.

33:14Tim Ferriss:Yeah. Watch Free Solo. It'll freak you out. So that's one that I'm thinking about going deep on. I'd say that's very high up on the list because - That's awesome, dude. We're going to be, let's do it together. I'm into it. I'm into it. I am totally into it. I mean, the rock climbing when approached in a reasonable way, like a systematic reasonable way, not with like crazy dyno movements on bouldering. Younger bodies can handle it. Certain bodies can handle it. My body, not so much. Like I do not want to fall repeatedly from 10, 15 feet up. I'm just not into it. So - In the case of doing it reasonably though, for instance, I spent a bunch of time, I've spent a lot of time in Utah and climbing in some of the Salt Lake City indoor gyms, you have incredible athletes.

33:59Tim Ferriss:And I'll make that a little finer tuned. When I would go to the gym, it was generally like 11 a.m. Who the hell goes to the rock climbing gym at 11 a.m. on a weekday? These are retirees and moms. So you would see, for instance, these like 60, 70, 75, almost 80-year-olds who are doing like 5 '11 plus. This is when you were single, so that was like I'm hunting. Yeah, exactly. Cougarville. And you would just see these people in their 60s and 70s doing things that I could not even imagine doing with complete inversion on overhangs. Oh, yeah. I've seen this. 60, 70 feet up, you had the national speed climbing team.

34:45Tim Ferriss:You had Olympians. But more than like the young guns, right? The 15-year-olds are doing all this crazy stuff because they're impervious. It was the people in their 60s and 70s who were climbing every day that inspired me to want to take this more seriously. So I was like, okay, I want to play the long game here. What can I do that's fun? It's a puzzle. There's a lot of Tetris. They literally call bouldering, they call problems. Problems, yeah, exactly. And so there's a lot of brain power involved. And also, it's just to give an idea of the technicality. I mean, there are, for example, women who cannot do five pull-ups, who can climb 513, 514.

35:29Tim Ferriss:That's very, very, very, very, very hard, just for people who have no reference point. Like, world class, like 514, 515. Like, insane. Insane. Like, that's when you're in the magazines. Oh, I understand. and it's because of the technical depthness. And yeah, there's like APE index and other physiological factors that play into it. But that is a very long answer to your question of what I'm thinking about now, which is rock climbing.

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37:13Tim Ferriss:The archery was great and the competition was fantastic. I love competing. However, archery is by definition, incredibly solitary. Like you're just by yourself doing the same thing over and over and over again thousands of times. And I've had enough of that in my life. I've hit my quota. I want to hang out with other people. Climbing is super social because you sit there and if neither of you can do it, you'll be like, ah, like what if you put your like foot in like that and like kind of lunged up that way and stretched, you know what I mean? Yeah, and then you can ask other people for tips like beta, right?

37:49Tim Ferriss:Like you give me some beta on this. It's fun. It's really fun. I just love it. You know, I wanted to, mention something if people haven't read it. The Blade itself, which is a series. It's not very long. I think it's two or three volumes by Joe Abercrombie. It's fantasy novels. They're really good. The audiobooks are incredible. And the reason I thought of this, The Blade itself, is because of our conversation around Ohm and Toaster and a friend of mine just died in a plane crash. Less than two weeks ago. The NetJets one? that went oh you knew him yeah josh oh god that was a latitude too yeah i know i know i know so you just don't know when your time is up and in the blade itself and there are a lot of various sucks yeah thanks and we weren't like super close friends but certainly like friendly you know acquaintances like we've it wouldn't be strange to text and you just don't know when your time is up and the blade itself explores this in a million different dimensions it's really really outstanding i've read i say that as someone who's read a lot of fantasy and it just talks about the randomness of life or death and war right it's like you happen to like squat down take a shit and the guy next to you gets an arrow through the head it's like it's just dumb luck yeah um which is a way to i suppose reiterate the gratitude piece that you were mentioning earlier so i mean that's going to be a tough act to follow where do you want to go from that yeah a few things let's change it up to well let's just go straight into like working out um have you tried this yeah i have actually okay i really like it yeah so for people that are on audio i just got turned on to this new protein called pioneer pastures and it's 30 grams in this little tiny shake it's a2 so it has lactose removed and it's also from that special genetic a cow.

39:46Do you know more about the A2? Can you speak to it? I've heard about the A2. I don't know a whole lot about it.

39:49Tim Ferriss:It's like the Holstein and some other cow and da-da-da-da-da. Apparently more people tolerate A2 better than not. I don't get any stomach issues or anything with this type of whey protein. Anyway, this is not, I'm not an investor or any shit like that. You can get it at Target or whatever. It's tasty as hell and it's 30 grams and I don't know if you're trying to put a little muscle mass I love that this is next to the Lalo tequila. exactly i mean you can make something you want everything you're growing by needs anyway i just i just wanted to know if you had tried it because like we always this is the random show i've tried it yeah i tried it uh you like it i do yeah there's a gym i can't remember exactly in a brooklyn barbell club where they sold this and i tried it then and i did yeah tolerate it super well didn't get the grumpy guts yeah as one might what's your favorite protein out of curiosity i mean my protein i mean this is a softball pitch but funny you should ask kevin uh i'm look, I'm involved with this one, but you know what?

40:46Tim Ferriss:It's like, I always disclose. Have you noticed how few fucking people disclose what they're involved with? They're like, yeah, I've heard of this great thing. Oh my God. And they never disclose they're involved. The fact that I'm involved - You can literally go to jail for that shit. No, I know. But the FTC doesn't enforce that stuff. Anyway, I mean, right now, like I'm traveling with Maui Nui as usual. This one though is kind of interesting. I probably get 40 % of my protein from Mamanui venison. This is wild harvested axis deer from Hawaii. There's a long story there, but incredibly nutrient dense.

41:19I love this shit and this is not an ad, but I do have a hard question for you, like a real hard question. And this is how you know that it's not an ad because you are what I'm about to say. Let's hear it. Processed meat, nitrates linked to a lot of cancer and bad shit. What are your thoughts on that?

41:34Tim Ferriss:This is very, very, very minimally processed. So you can get summer sausage or the sticks. This is free if most of that bullshit. What do you think that is? Because it is real. Like people that eat more nitrate processed, ultra processed meats. Yeah. If it's ultra processed and the shelf life is like three years, I would raise an eyebrow and probably hit pause. So the fact of the matter is most of this stuff that is minimally processed almost definitionally is not going to last very long on the shelf. What do they mean by minimally processed when you see like a meat stick? Like, what do you think about that versus is it the amount of salt content that creates the nitrates?

42:10Like what?

42:10Tim Ferriss:No, no, it's actually nitrates are totally separate categories. So you're looking to, I think an easy heuristic for this is just shelf life. Like how long will this last? How long are those? Your eyes are going to be better than mine. If you can read the size two font on this, then you can tell me. I'm really good at that. Give it a go. and I'll buy you some time in the meantime 27 years no I'm just kidding yeah 25 years it doesn't say on here yeah it'll say somewhere on the box there we go 27 best buy yeah 27 so it's like less than one year I think actually looking at here yeah yeah so yeah less than one year wow yeah and what makes this interesting is that this I give also Molly looks really good for 12 years I give her probably two or three of these a week.

42:58Tim Ferriss:The way I think of this, this is peppered 10. So there are a bunch of these different sticks. Like every professional team you can imagine uses these things in their training. But this is made with wild harvested venison, liver, and heart. So it has some organ meat in it. You do not taste that. It just tastes like regular jerky stick. But I treat this like a multivitamin. So it's like I take, let's call it two or three of these a week and limit it to that. And then the rest of the time I'm taking their other either peppered or regular sticks. But this is when I'm on the go. I mean, literally, this was in my bag when I got here, right?

43:37Tim Ferriss:When I'm on the go, I'm traveling with this, probably some nuts of some type, like pistachios or whatever. Walnuts, pretty good for a host of reasons. And that's about it. I mean, I might have a couple of servings of exogenous ketones, but I haven't taken that stuff in a couple of months. You told me, you freaked me out. It messes up your liver. This is a controversial topic. So yeah, there are certain exogenous ketones that contain something called 1 ,3-butanediol. It's very common. And there's a lot of debate around this. So the jury is still out, but some people believe that that can produce liver toxicity.

44:17Tim Ferriss:so i consume anything with one three butane dial in moderation now to play not devil's advocate but to do a counterpoint a lot of the people who are putting forth that hypothesis or claiming that's true are selling their own ketone salts so they're actually selling a competitive product so question mark question mark you can look at the peer-reviewed literature and decide for yourself what I have decided personally is that you should use the exogenous ketones very intermittently I have experimented a lot with every type of exogenous ketone you can imagine and I mean you got me on that good shit it's expensive as hell but like that stuff goes straight to your head the one that you didn't want to talk about you know what's funny is like when Tim this is how you know it's good off camera Tim's like I don't want to mention the brand because if I do it'll sell out and I won't be able to get my own supply.

45:13And that's how I knew I was like, that's some good shit. If Tim wants to guard his own supply of it, like, you know, it's good. Yeah.

45:20Tim Ferriss:And, and it is good, but it's BHB. I won't get too much into the technicality here, but it's beta hydroxybutyrate bonded to one, three butane dial. So you're still getting that one, three butane dial, which means you take it in moderation, but in a pinch when you want it for a podcast or something like that, man, it really works. It does work. It really works. And I mean, I've given it to relatives with dementia and within 20 minutes, their sentences have like five X in length and they're more acute verbally. It's wild. How do you give it? I wish they had it in pill form because in some sense it's really hard to give that to someone that has dementia.

46:00Tim Ferriss:Cause it's like, it tastes like gasoline. It doesn't taste great. It's not the Worst thing, I mean, I've had a lot of foul stuff in my life. I just did a shot with this person, and I was like, I'll do it with you. And then we went for a walk, and that was it. There are some concerns around 1, 3-butenedial and balance. So particularly in older adults, you do not want to contribute to any risk of breaking a hip. That's just the death knell for a lot of people. I just had to put my mom into a different home that has, it's actually kind of cool. sad because she's been falling they had this like new ai orb that sits up there and it kind of does like a kind of radar type situation and it detects falls oh wow so the second she falls in the home like they can rush in and like help her out and all yeah they carpet the hell out of it now and stuff like that how do you think about pre-grieving that or contending with that yourself in terms of family that's rough i mean yeah i mean it doesn't sound easy you know so if you're like play forward the tape right it's like i mean i think about this with my own parents and it's just like nobody lasts forever you know it's it's one of those things where it's so funny because when you're a teenager and i remember when my dad was having a hard time standing and this was like when i was much younger before he passed and i was like oh dad's gonna be in like the thing that i might have to like push him on it if he has to sit down kind of those walkers it can also be something you can push somebody on i was so embarrassed you know i was like oh people are looking at us or whatever and now i like push my mom with pride like in the inner like walker thing and I'm like, I don't know.

47:33You don't know what's going to happen, but the only thing you can do is just make sure to show up and hang out. I'm very lucky that my mom has dementia, but it is a type that is not Alzheimer's, so it's probably vascular or something. I can walk in and she knows who I am. She can't tell you what she had for breakfast, but she knows who I am, which is like, I'll take that all day long. I know you have family members that are in the same boat.

47:58Tim Ferriss:I have a ton of family members with Alzheimer's. I mean, literally I got a call from one of my relatives wanting to discuss interventions. And it's a tough conversation because there really isn't much. Like you have to, as far as I can tell, act preemptively, which is why, actually this relates to another bullet of mine. I. You have five? What was that? How many bullets did you have? Oh, how many bullets? Yeah. That was good. Of all the rye whiskeys. It's the only one that I can tolerate. I loathe stationary bikes. I really find stationary biking to be one of the most soul-crushing things in the world.

48:42Tim Ferriss:It's the worst. However, yeah. I mean, I've tried Peloton and didn't like their ergonomics and so on for a bunch of reasons. And then I have tried very expensive, very, very expensive setups recommended to me by fancy doctors and so on. which are just like too uncomfortable. Like I'm incredibly hunched over. Like my back is basically parallel with the floor. Dude, what are you talking about? And I'm like kneeing myself in the stomach. It's so uncomfortable. Like crunching machines? What are you talking about? No, no, I'm talking about getting on like a stationary bike. But if you're in like a racing position, you have to adopt this hunchback.

49:17Tim Ferriss:And like there are a million reasons why I find that uncomfortable. There is a bike, however, it's very easy to find. It's pretty common in public gyms called the Kaiser M3i Studio Indoor Bike. I don't know why they have to make it so difficult in its nomenclature, but the Kaiser M3i is unique in my experience in that you can elevate the handlebars enough to sit in a comfortable position with a decent saddle, meaning the seat, such that I can do the V2 and the V4 and all of that training for me in a comfortable position without compromising my low back. which has been a huge step forward. So this is the only bike that I've used consistently for this kind of training.

50:03Tim Ferriss:And I was having a number of conversations with a neuroscientist named Dr. Tommy Wood over a period of weeks. And if, for instance, you do something called the Norwegian 4x4, there's data to suggest that it's VO2 max training. So it's very, very, very intense. But it's like four minutes on, three to four minutes off. Let's just call it three minutes. Four minutes on, three minutes off. And you do that for four rounds. this is the only bike that I've been able to use to do this consistently. And if you do that for, I think it's three times a week for five to six months, the volumetric changes, meaning the neuroanatomical changes in the hippocampus and other areas that are certainly indicated in things like Alzheimer's lasts for up to five years.

50:49Tim Ferriss:So if you do five to six months of gutting it out three times a week, the results, the dividends pay off for, it seems up to or possibly beyond five years. Holy shit. Crazy. Wow. So that's probably - You're doing some sauna in there and you're like, good to go. Well, that's what I'm doing. Yeah, I'm doing all the usual stuff, right? I'm doing the sauna and don't let perfect be the enemy of good. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like, okay, sure. You don't have 30 minutes to do it. Like do 10 minutes. Like you can't do a sauna, take a hot bath. Like figure it out. You know what my good is that I like?

51:22it's not perfect, but it's good, which is I go on my treadmill. I set it to 4.75 or something incline. Yeah. So it's like not crazy, but it's not, you know, I can still do shit.

51:33Tim Ferriss:Yeah. And I set it to only like 2.5 on the walking. Yeah. And I'll play Duolingo chess because they have chess on there now for Duolingo. Oh, I didn't know that. They teach you chess. It's amazing. That's cool. And you can play friends and live people and all that stuff. And they do game replays and they teach. And I'm learning a ton. and 30, 40 minutes go by and you're drenched in sweat. I know it's not high intensity and all the benefits on the cognitive side seem to be around like a lot of high. Yeah. But who knows, but it's good. It's doing something. It's doing something. Right. So I've really enjoyed that.

52:07Like if you, if you just want something to both be learning and engaged and kind of like having fun. Yeah. So you forget about the time. Do you know what I'm talking about? Where it's like, you just like, Oh wait, what time is it? Oh shit. I've been on for 37 minutes. I can get off now. you know yeah i love that type of cardio yeah i mean for me i mean this is gonna sound like maybe

52:27Tim Ferriss:a step down but it's like the older i get the more i realize like a little goes a long way yesterday for instance like i had a bunch of stuff stacked up and i won't bore people with the commitments but i didn't really have any time to go to the gym and it was my day to go to the gym to do x y and z x says and i went in and i did like three sets i was literally in there five minutes and i left but it's better than nothing right totally right something is better than nothing i'm not gonna go to the olympics with that approach yeah but let's fucking be real i'm not going to the Olympics period i mean maybe it's like a bystander like yeah yeah oh man you know i'll throw some new random stuff in there there's a study that got my attention it's been out since 2025, September 22.

53:14Tim Ferriss:This is in JAMA. And this is the title, single treatment with MM120, and then in parentheses, Lisergide, I think is how that's pronounced, in generalized anxiety disorder. So this is a randomized clinical trial looking at anxiety, which is often comorbid, meaning happening at the same time as depressive disorders. And I think this is sponsored by a company called Definium, which used to be MindMed. In any case... I know where this is going. I just looked it up. Yeah. So what's interesting about this, and they're not going to maybe love my comparison, but so MM120 Liseragide, I mean, it's comparable to LSD, right?

54:00Tim Ferriss:and this is a multi-arm clinical trial. They did five arms, which is rare to do because the risk is that they'll blend together. So the arm means a group who is treated with a different intervention in this case. So they've got placebo, 25 micrograms, 50 micrograms, 100 micrograms, and 200 micrograms. 100 mics is... That's what they give standard for LSD. That's what you can think of as a standard hit. 100 micrograms. And the results are wild, man. If you look at the HAM-A score, this is up to 12 weeks out. You can see, I'll just show you, how it's dose dependent. The more you take, basically, the better it goes over up to, and I'm not sure how long the follow-ups continued.

54:49Tim Ferriss:But where you land is you see that like the 100 micrograms and 200 are very, very close. Yeah, yeah. Like 25 and 50 are certainly a lot higher. Now, are you still getting the same psychedelic experience with this stuff? In the case of this particular compound, I don't know. My guess would be yes. I could be totally wrong in that. So, Defini, feel free to correct me. I am guessing the answer is yes with MM120. But what that says to me is, hey, 12 weeks of relief with GAD, generalized anxiety disorder, which I've been clinically diagnosed with, that and OCD, like 12 weeks is pretty good. And it seems like at least according to the data in this study, the minimum effective dose would be 100 micrograms.

55:36Tim Ferriss:Now, 100 micrograms, at least for me and for a lot of people, you will be tripping your balls off, not to get too technical. Wait a second. Dude, it says that this was done at Neuroscape at UCSF. Was it really? This is Adam's lab. No shit. Are you serious? I'm dead serious. I just clicked through on it. It says phase three trial of MM120 Brigad. Oh, that's amazing. This is our buddy. This is our buddy Adam. Okay. Well, I have a text that I need to send them. Oh my God. That's awesome. I wonder if I indirectly funded this because I helped fund some of Neuroscape stuff. That's funny. Isn't that hilarious?

56:12Tim Ferriss:Yeah, I did not look at that. That's hilarious. Small world. Yeah. Okay. There you go. So, you know, it's interesting for GAD. We were talking about dementia. There's a case report with high-dose psilocybin mushrooms. I don't think it was actually psilocybin synthesized. Looking at this particular thing, it was a Japanese elderly woman with dementia. It may have been Alzheimer's who took, I can't believe they did this to her. Five grams, right? Yeah, and then she took five grams. So Terrence McKenna, heroic dose, somehow fell asleep for like 19 hours or something obscene, which would be very, very worrisome.

56:53Tim Ferriss:If you're like the child of said parent, wakes up and then starts having like full expositional conversations in contrast with her previous like monosyllabic or single word responses to things. And it was transient. It didn't last forever, but it raises some very interesting questions. I've seen at least some case reports also with LSD producing similar effects. And I've been interested in this for probably a decade, right? Like I've kind of, I've hypothesized this could be the case. It's just like, do you really want to give your parent, like under what circumstances is it ethical to give someone hallucinations?

57:35See, I could never do that to my mom because she was always anti all this stuff. Yeah. And then the second, like, God forbid they have a bad trip. Like, why would you want to put them through that? Yeah. You know?

57:46Tim Ferriss:So it's curious. I was sent something by, well, someone I won't mention, but a very interesting case report on microdosing with LSD with someone with dementia. Did it work? Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. And in terms of similar to the ketones, not saying the mechanism is the same, but producing much more verbal fluidity, right? Going from like, I'm good. It depends. Right. I have relatives who are limited to that now. They're basically giving answers that are non-answers. Sounds good. These things that you could use as a reply to anything, they're not necessarily grokking what's happening to full paragraphs, which means to my interpretation, it's offline to online.

58:34Tim Ferriss:It's a really stark difference. Because with the one word, two word answers, you don't actually know if they're understanding what's happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So do you have some MN120 on you right now? No, I don't. I don't. If I did, I would probably not take it tonight necessarily. If you see a weird cut in the video, and then we get infinitely smarter, you'll know why. A little glitch here, there. Yeah, exactly. It's a flash, and all of a sudden, we're just like, brain man. For the smarter, I would keep it probably to 20 mics or below. We'll see. But I found this pretty interesting for GAD especially, and then for the dementia piece.

59:11Tim Ferriss:But it raises a lot of ethical questions. what is ethical to use as a treatment in someone who cannot give consent. That's a tough, gnarly problem. Right? Yeah. Especially if you're dealing with stuff that is not exactly prescription medication. Yeah, I mean, that's the whole thing. If it goes sideways, you feel like an asshole. Well, yeah. To put it mildly. Yeah, to put it mildly. But it's amazing and it gives you another half day with a parent or a loved one and you can full-on have conversations and they see you and you see them in a way that you hadn't in six months or a year, that's amazing, right?

59:48Tim Ferriss:Or if it potentially… It slows the decline. I think it's too much to hope for a reversal, frankly. Yeah. But there are some strange phenomena out there, man. Like there's this phenomenon called terminal lucidity where someone like on their deathbed when they've been vegetative. Oh, I've heard about this. There's that book that I told you read. Did you read that? I'm not sure. The afterlife book? No, I didn't read that. Okay. Because they talk about that. But this is well documented where people suddenly, they've been basically vegetative. Right. Or completely unable to respond to any stimulus.

1:00:19Tim Ferriss:days they come fully lucid yeah they become totally lucid yeah they have full-blown extensive conversations that's what the fuck is going on there i'm telling you it is so weird to me that we think like like a lot of the things that we do in physical form like what we do in life like mimics nature in many ways and all of our data is like backed up in the cloud and we're like oh we're not backed up in the cloud in any way and then there's these people with like full-blown entanglements in their brain full on you know the alzheimer's for like a decade and they become completely lucid where is that coming from okay i see what you're saying i was i wasn't tracking that fully for a second if it's if i'm hearing you correctly it's like if it's all localized right i'm saying like if all of that ability is localized within the confines of the skull how do you explain this given all the structural deterioration yeah I don't have good answers for that I just don't it is a well documented as far as I know a well documented phenomenon so it's like go figure that one out I mean I'm not qualified way above my pay grade crazy man it's wild so I'll give a shout out to somebody we're not going to open this right now because we'll start chewing on them and it'll be the we'll be up all night is that the 120?

1:01:34Tim Ferriss:no this is new tonic n-e-u-t-o-n-i-c no tropics see that's upon the tropics because these are toothpicks that i was given by a podcaster you may recognize named chris williamson and they have they have like 20 i want to say 20 i might be getting that off but like 20 25 milligrams of caffeine in each toothpick oh wow and there are a couple of other no tropics aka smart yeah yeah smart drugs in And they're great. Because if I have cups of coffee, I will chug a cup of coffee. And then if it gets refilled, I'll chug another cup of coffee and it's a problem. These actually, in terms of pacing, have been fantastic.

1:02:19Tim Ferriss:So that's been my sort of not exactly coitus interruptus for people to get that. But ad libitum interruptus, avoiding overconsumption of coffee and other stimulants. this helps me to kind of pace it because even if i chew on this thing until it's fragments of wood max i can squeeze out of it is 20 25 milligrams yeah uh what else you got kevin yeah i mean the only other thing that i have that i think is interesting is is what's happening in the world of i don't want to talk a lot about ai because i'm just frankly ai'd out but i will say that the idea that we can all now kind of take control of our productivity and pretty much anything that we want to control now, like device wise, we can do with just a few simple prompts on AI.

1:03:07And I had a buddy that came over to my house and he was like, hey, you got cameras in your house. I have something called Ubiquity, which is like they have cameras and it's a very common kind of household type situation when you want to have security system, front door thing, cameras, sensors, water detectors underneath your things in case things leak and you're out of town, and whatever. And so I've got this whole setup and he's like, Hey, you know, they have a full on API where you can just tell bot or whatever to code against it. And I was like, okay, that's interesting. Like, what can I do?

1:03:39And so the cameras now have AI sensors where they can detect who it is that's walking in. So it's like, Oh, Tim's coming up to your door. Oh, that's your daughter. That's your dog. What I text my dog toaster, like sees him and it puts it like a little dog emblem above his head when he's walking around and it knows that it's toaster but the crazy shit is i was like okay well what if i can go further and i can tell it to do actions there's a speaker hooked up to as well so that's for security so basically if anyone loiters in my alleyway in it detects it it's like i have a place i'm like really funky shit where it's like detected like loiter in the alleyway like whatever and just to scare people off in case they're i am the bad man yeah but you could draw little areas around like the where they're like they shouldn't be which is like at your door fiddling with your door and say if they stand here for more than 30 seconds play said audio out of speaker so i was like okay this is interesting well what if when i walk in my house if i'm wearing like a hat of like my favorite sports team and they're playing it like reads me the score is like i walk in so like you can think about all these things where it's like it's doing stuff based on your activity so like if you're out there gardening it's like it'll be like hey kevin i noticed that the plant over here wasn't watered enough so it's watching all of this stuff and so there's a lot of if then then that kind of situation like if i see you doing x so like the latest i have is like i programmed it so when it sees the license plate on my car it automatically knows to open the gate because it knows it's me yeah yeah that's cool camera looks at the license plate on the freaking car, checks it against the database and allows me in.

1:05:29How crazy is that? And this is like, for people that are listening, I'm not talking about like $10 ,000 systems. The camera is like$200. Anyone can do this at home, you know? And it's just wild to think about. Finally, we had all these kind of discrete systems that I had some Nest stuff and I had some Google Home stuff and I had, now they're all talking to each other. So you can just do kind of really crazy. I know you would like this because you're the kind of person that you've told me before, like you don't like to answer your door. Cause if the delivery person is like, damn, then all of a sudden your address is like all over the internet.

1:06:02Tim Ferriss:Docs. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know you said you don't, I'm also pretty AI'd out, but at the same time, it's like, I can't resist going back to the opium den. It's so fascinating. What are you doing now with the AI stuff? Well, I mean, I'm more curious to hear your thoughts and predictions, frankly, because I think you're better at it. But I mean, I'm using cloud code with Ferris APIs to do tons of like inbox analysis and stuff, right? I'm doing a 20-year retrospective analysis of angel investing. It's like, who made what introductions? Which companies did I not reply to that ended up being successes?

1:06:37Tim Ferriss:Which did I turn down that ended up being really important? You really want to talk to yourself. I suspected it would be worse than it was. I actually have not, I haven't missed that many explicit opportunities. I wanted to test my own stories against data, right? Because I have all sorts of stories about why I did certain things, why certain things worked out. And I have certain stories about my batting average. And I'm like, but is it true? Right. Really? Is it really true? Like, let's look at some hard numbers. The sad truth, and I have a buddy that wears the bracelet, and you see me with a necklace around the way it categorizes your AI and listens to you 24-7.

1:07:21It's about 70-ish percent that we think we know, but it's actually what we know. Out of the 100 % of what we think we know, this is the truth. I said I wanted a dark chocolate bar at 7 p.m. It's like, no, you said it at 5, and you said it this way. And you said it was milk chocolate. Yeah, exactly. So it's always about 20 % off from where you actually think your brain's at.

1:07:44Tim Ferriss:Sure. Which is brutal. Well, plus, I mean, that's like last week, right? If you're talking about like 15 years ago. Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you listen to any Genesis story of any startup, you're like, wait a minute now. This is like a startup comic working on material, but he's been working on this one five-minute bit so long that now he believes that's actually truth. The sanitizing and the editing of these startup Genesis stories is hilarious. And there's no reason to think that I would be, or you would be exempt from it. Right. Right. When you're telling your own story, even if you're just telling it to yourself.

1:08:16What's the number one thing that you've learned by applying AI to your life in this fashion? Like, what's the thing where you walked away and said like, damn, that was like insightful and I'm going to change my behavior. Or I learned something new about myself that I wouldn't if I had not used AI.

1:08:31Tim Ferriss:Well, I think from a holistic health perspective, by holistic, I mean, having enough data related to medications, supplements, predispositions, side effects, what happened to me two weeks ago, the LLMs have been incredibly helpful. The picture that they get and the speed with which they can deliver an answer that I can interrogate is just incredible. What did you learn? What was the thing that you... I mean, honestly, it's mostly avoiding disaster, right? It's like, are any of these things contraindicated with one another. Could A, B, or C explain D? And you have to keep in mind these things can still hallucinate, but you can, I don't want to say eliminate that, but minimize it by just fact-checking across LLMs.

1:09:17Tim Ferriss:There's that. I would say that there's a lot of insight on, hopefully, that can translate to future decision-making related to investing, which is investing for me is not just amassing more chips. it's what's fun about investing to me is it's a way to scorecard your thinking and decision making it's just a very objective way to decide if something was the right or the wrong decision and you can find slice that and there are ways that you could maybe question that but if you're asking yourself was i thinking well last month that's not a very helpful question where do you go from there right if you're logging maybe every decision you make every day and then trying to cross-reference outcomes with blah, blah, blah.

1:10:05Tim Ferriss:Like, yeah, but you're never going to do that. But when you're making relatively frequent investments, you can do that. You can also run counterfactuals. What if I did the opposite? What if I had not sold that? What if I had kept that? What if I had done this? What if I had done that? Is that worth your time though? At the end of the day, you can throw everything into S &P 500 and just go to bed. Well, there's that. I would say it's worth it to me because I find it interesting. I actually enjoy the intellectual exercise of it. But otherwise, I would say with, in terms of like how AI has impacted me, I would say that the honest answer is not that much because most shit isn't worth doing in the first place.

1:10:45Tim Ferriss:People are finding very, very clever ways to expedite automating workflows of all different types and doing something well does not make it important or worth doing in the first place. So there's a lot, I think the level of bullshit that is being done just at a very fast, efficient rate is skyrocketing. But simultaneously, there are definitely cases where I look back at, say, this analysis of 20 years of stuff. To do that manually would be impossible. It would take me a year full time with multiple people to do that. and with a cloud code like Gmail API and leaving my computer running for a handful of hours a few times it's like what you get back is fucking incredible.

1:11:32Tim Ferriss:It's unbelievable and I haven't even scratched the surface. Yeah. I will say also another way that AI has maybe affected my life in a net negative way and I'm not we have another mutual friend who maybe we shouldn't name who feels very similarly is bleep that out but yeah. Jesus Christ so if you train AIs on your writing they're really good and I think I feel this is a stretch of a comparison obviously because I'm not an adept like a world class Go player but when Alpha Go defeated one of the top Korean players he was kind of like I'm done like I don't find joy in this anymore like if we're playing against machines.

1:12:19Tim Ferriss:And when I see these AIs very beautifully, I'm not going to lie, we're like in the top of the first inning. This stuff is going to get so much better. Spit out stuff that is so much better. I mean, I can still write, but what they can do in 30 seconds is what would take me 30 hours. And I'm just like, fuck, it really drains the motivation for me to put in those 30 hours. Yeah. Why wouldn't it? Of course it would, right? Yeah, but in some sense, you can consider it a really good co-pilot because for it to come up with novel ideas that would engage an audience, that's still the holy grail where it's not quite there yet, right?

1:13:01Like it's going to make you sound, it's going to button up your copy and it might expand upon it in ways that you wouldn't, but it's not going to come up with the original thesis for the whole thing, right?

1:13:13Tim Ferriss:Yeah, it's going to have trouble with the original thesis, but even there, I think it does a pretty good job. I haven't tried with writing stuff. Well, if you just do a data dump and you're like, create. Oh, you sent me that link. Yeah, if you just do a data dump and you're like, create. Remember you sent me that link, you were like, what should Tim do in the next five years? Oh, yeah, that was good. That was really interesting. Tell people what you did, because they might find this because it's their own life. Sure, so you could do this in whichever model you're using, whether it's Claude or ChatGPT or whatever.

1:13:44Tim Ferriss:If it knows you. You can tie in your inbox too. Yeah, you can tie in your inbox. In my case, I didn't do that. But if it has enough history on you, you can just ask, what do you think I should do in the next five years? What might be some rewarding paths of exploration? I think I put something like that. What are three to five ideas that you think could be rewarding career exploration for me in the next X period of time? So if they've used AI for, let's call it three to six months, and you've probably given it several hundred things to think about, it will span across those conversations. As long as you turn this on, I think it's on by default now, but it used to be an opt-in thing where you say, allow the AI to look across conversation.

1:14:30Right. So it has a holistic understanding of who you are.

1:14:32Tim Ferriss:Yeah. And the answers were fucking outstanding. Yeah. I mean, really, really good. Yeah. I sent it to a few friends, sent it to you. I sent it to a few of my closest friends and they're like, that's pretty fucking good. Yeah. It was really cool. Some of the ideas I was like, damn, you should do that. Yeah. It had this one business idea for you to do and it wasn't a book. Yeah. And I was like, dude, I texted you back. I was like, that's awesome. Like, go build that. Yeah. I mean, there were business ideas. There were certainly kind of non-revenue, but philosophically aligned ideas. It was shocking to me.

1:15:06Tim Ferriss:So that's actually a very good example of something that has deeply informed what I'm mulling over as I imagine the future. I was like, man, that actually is a really good, because keeping in mind, I'm asking questions about things of interest, things I like, things I don't like. I am asking questions about different scientific interests related to SciState Foundation, my nonprofit foundation. I'm asking questions about investing. I'm asking questions about writing. I'm asking questions about relationships. I'm asking questions about organizing trips for friends. I'm asking so many different questions.

1:15:42Tim Ferriss:Am I still on the board of your nonprofit? I think you're like the secretary or something. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Maybe you were honorably discharged. I don't know. I never got any paperwork around it. I've heard anything in like three years. I'm like, okay. Yeah. Well, I said it was going to be a light lift. It's a light lift. And I mean, that's a very good example, right? That may be the best example because if that even 10 % informs a major next chapter, holy shit, that's a big deal for me, certainly. And it makes me think a little bit about podcast listeners especially, readers also, but to a greater extent podcast listeners to come up to me.

1:16:26Tim Ferriss:And most listeners I run into are really great. And they're always a couple of weirdos, but most are fantastic. and they'll say something often like, I'm so sorry you don't know me at all and I feel like I know you. And what I say a lot of the time is actually, if you listen to my podcasts every week or even every month, you do know me pretty well. Yeah. And then you think about a machine that never forgets. Yeah. It's gonna know you pretty damn well. Yeah, of course. And it's spooky in a way. Yeah. But I started getting more out of the LLMs when I started asking questions. Now you have to be, I think, a little careful with outsourcing this and absolving yourself of responsibility to think about these things.

1:17:15Tim Ferriss:But when you ask it open-ended personal questions in the way that you would ask a close friend, what do you think are three to five creative ways I might explore things professionally in the next five years? Yeah. as opposed to something that you think is more suitable for a robot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You get some really interesting responses. It's so cool. That's a great use case. Yeah. The one thing I've been playing around with lately that I haven't told you about yet, but I think about all these AI startups and everyone that's creating all these different apps and all that stuff. And for me, it's kind of fun to watch as a kind of bystander being like, oh, cool, you're going to make this.

1:17:52But I really want to explore things that which just no one has done before. It's always been interesting to me more than just like iterative, kind of like standing down under the rough edges. A lot of startup school will go out there and be like, Hey, you know what sucks is, you know, we're processing doesn't do this. So I'm going to like make a slightly better word processor. I'm just making this up. But I like the kind of like wild or crazier, like I'd rather have it fail and say, I did something new than just do something boring. That makes sense. Oh, I get it. And so lately what I've done.

1:18:24Part of why I have so many fatalities. Yeah, exactly. Same. What I've done lately is I went and bought a bunch of these decks of cards on Amazon that are values cards. Meaning like they give you like a deck of 100 things. And like, what are your core values? And you're like empathy or kindness or like you'd like flip through them. And the way they typically work is that you have like a really high value, a medium and a low value. And then you put them into different stacks. And then you walk away and you say, oh, this is my high value stack of things that are my core values that mean a lot to me.

1:18:58And it might be 10 or 15 different cards. And what's interesting is to do that with friends and partners and things like that. And then compare them and say, hey, what do we align on? What we don't align on? And I can imagine for like an intimate partner, this would be a pretty important thing to do. And so I started there and I'm like, okay, well, I'm going to scan these cards in and then I'm going to pare it down and make these core values where you come in and say, this matters to me. Almost like a swiping dating app or something. Like, yes, I'm into empathy. No, I'm not. Yeah, exactly. But you swipe through them.

1:19:30And then when you're done with that, then you've got your list of these values. And they can change over time. And so I think the important thing is to log that and say, these are my values today. But tomorrow, one might shift a little bit. And then I thought about contractual bonds. And so the working title I have for it is called Bond. and where I can say like with a partner, I'm going to create a contract with you where we both have to shake on it, meaning like a virtual shake. Like you think of it as almost like a SimCity like situation. This is my city. This is her city or a friend's city.

1:20:02And we're going to agree that I take the trash out every Tuesday night. And there's an emotional shake on both sides. And if I break this bond, it results in what? And so from the partner's side, it would result in a one to 10 on how much damaging this is to me. So not taking this ratio, I'd probably be like, ah, that sucks because the trash is going to overflow. That's probably three to most people, right? Then I kind of get negative points in case I break that bond. But what's interesting though, that will link back to a core value of theirs and a core value of mine. And I want to show up as a good partner and there'll be a core value associated with that.

1:20:38And then you could see those bonds between multiple people. And the reason I say this is because I've always been one of these people historically that they've said yes to so many things. And then I bail last minute. I'm the worst at that, you know, where I'm like, I'm in. And then I'm like, I'm an introvert. I'm out, you know, last minute. Right. And so I just think that there needs to be a system where almost like a LinkedIn for like values and trust and bonds. There was a great Wu-Tang quote that's like, word is bond. And ultimately, like, I really believe that, like, there's something really cool about saying, you know, we have the better business bureau.

1:21:12That's like the best we got. Oh, this person, like they did well by their customers 2000 times. What about individuals in saying like, Hey, this person was always empathetic towards me, or this person was kind and helped me move on a Sunday. What prompted all this? I don't know. I'm just thinking about it. Just like the thing I think about is that there was such a dissatisfying. No, hold on. Let me give you the real answer. I call this dark information, dark information. So dark information is information that exists in the real world, but we have yet to put in physical form. And so right now you and I have a trust thing, you know, that if the camera was turned off, there are certain things that you can tell me that you're pretty certain.

1:21:53I will not tell anyone else every once in a while I do, but you will know, you know where that line is. Right. But that hasn't been concretized at any type of like visual real format. And so there's something interesting. I'm just brainstorming with you in real time. We've had a couple of drinks, but like my point is if there was a system where i could say i've created these bonds i've built up this reputation but it would also give me a way to reflect back and be like oh you know what i can see now historically that i've often bailed on events that i've signed up for let me improve that in myself the whole point of what you brought up a minute ago was if i use ai to go back historically and look across things i can detect these trends and then make course corrections based on those trends, right?

1:22:38Yeah, yeah. And so there's something interesting about this idea of there are these different facets. So there's these emotional facets that we have with every individual. How might we track those?

1:22:51Tim Ferriss:What jumps out at me about this is maybe a cool use case would be identifying. You could write it out or you could have cards, your values, but maybe to put a finer point on it, the type of person you believe yourself to be. Because it's very different than what people perceive you to be. Or the type of person you want to be. Right, exactly. And then it's like, let's take a look at your calendar and your email and your iMessage to see how much your story of what you think you are or what you want to be matches up with your behavior. So I built - And then you get a report card. I built a prototype for exactly this.

1:23:25So remember maybe seven years ago, you did a 360 review for me? Yeah. Those things are brutal. For people that don't know what 360 reviews are, it's like you give 10 of your friends to somebody they interview them they collect all the data anonymously

1:23:38Tim Ferriss:could also be like co-workers, employees bosses, whatever and then you get a report back being like here are the deficiencies and positives that this person brings. Anonymized and they are very different than what you think you're how you show up. Totally. And so like that's the idea. I literally was looking at mine from like 12 years ago a couple weeks ago and I was just like yeah I know so tough. I know can you get it back and you're like who said this? I know some of it is brutal. I think I know what you said by the way. Do you ever use the word child rearing? Child rearing? Would you ever say that?

1:24:17Child rearing?

1:24:18Tim Ferriss:I mean To throw me off would you ever say that? To throw you off the sun trail? Because before I had kids somebody in my anonymous 360 review said like oh he's gonna have a hard time with child rearing. Oh no that wasn't I'm like who the fuck is a child rearing? No that's not I don't have any friends that even have that in their vocabulary. And I was like, the only person I could do that would be Tim trying to throw me off with a fucking smart-ass word. No, that wasn't me. That wasn't me. That wasn't me. No, no. I think I'd be able to identify whatever responses I gave. That's the one thing that stuck with me after like 15 years.

1:24:49I'm like, who the fuck said that?

1:24:50Tim Ferriss:Man, you're lucky if you got off with that. I've got so much more. Good Lord. You know what I've been doing that has been really helpful? because the blank page is something I struggle with with writing, which is part of the reason why the AI is so demoralizing in a sense because the LLMs within like 30 seconds are just like, boom, how do you like me now? Try to match that. But using, even though I certainly don't know the future of this company because it might get replaced by features that are innate to X, Y, or Z, but Whisperflow. Oh, God, I love it. Yeah, so using Whisperflow as a data dump.

1:25:24Tim Ferriss:I wish I was an investor. You may have recommended this to me. I can't recall, but basically doing a dump of a conversation as I'm walking with Whisperflow into a note on my phone, then taking that, dropping it into Claude, asking it to clean it up and turn it into something readable has been so helpful. Not necessarily for publication, but for emails, especially uncomfortable emails. You're like, oh, God. I'm putting it off. I'm procrastinating because I don't want to do it. Just doing a 10-minute brain dump. it's shocking how quickly things come together like i incredibly helpful and i'll just give a shout out to my friend alan lee co-founder of exploding kittens he recommended this headset because i was on a call with him i'm like man that audio is awesome what are you using can you put it on just for the viewers yeah i will this is it's gonna look as good as i hope it does it looks so good yeah it's pretty good right so this is the shocks s-h-o-k-z open meet uc open ear bone conduction headset.

1:26:24Tim Ferriss:So he was talking and I'm like, what the hell are you wearing? I was like, audio is really good. So it looks pretty dorky. This is like a, no, that's great. And the bone conduction is right here effectively in my cheekbones. When you first use them, you're like, wait a second. I feel like this is playing out of speakers. Like this is nonsense. This is complete BS, but then you totally plug your ears and you can still hear perfectly well, which is crazy. And what I like about these, A, the audio quality is great. You know, the connectivity varies, but the audio quality is fantastic. You can hear.

1:26:58Tim Ferriss:So if I'm like walking my dog, walking Molly, and I want to be able to hear traffic and so on, I can use this, especially if I'm using Whisperflow to data dump into a text file of some type, I don't really need to be listening. It's not like I'm on a phone call or a Zoom call or something. So I find this very, very helpful so that I can actually pay attention to my surroundings. And that's all I got. It's basically this and AirPods. I mean, there are other headphones that I will use for professional recording and stuff. But thus far, I'll share one more tech thing real quick. This little baggie here is the Sennheiser Pro Audio Condenser Microphone.

1:27:37Tim Ferriss:It's very simple. I've just been very impressed with the audio. When I'm on the road recording stuff for the podcast, like intros or sponsor reads or whatever, it's just a simple lav mic it's so simple but the audio quality even in a hotel room that is really bouncy lots of glass lots of metal where it should sound terrible if i use a fancy like this is a shure mic that we have right here if i were to use this exact mic because i have it at home yep in some of these bouncy rooms it would sound worse i'm not kidding than what i get for my purposes crazy with this it's pretty wild and i love sure i use their mics on a lot of podcasts but in terms of minimizing bounce yeah for whatever reason this little baggie that i can stick in a pocket right it's like this is my portable yeah sort of recording studio have you recorded on the iphone with it i have it sounds good it sounds great that's amazing and i don't have my phone with me there is an app that you can use for really high fidelity recording it's called like ferrite or something like that it's like lossless recording right lossless recording it's like f-e-r-r-i-t-e something like that i'll put the link in the show notes for this for people who are interested the quality is absurd and you can also use descript or one of these programs to do ai cleanup and it's crazy yeah you didn't need how smooth it is descript anymore like you can be You just use all the models to do it.

1:29:07Gemini is actually quite good at multi-modal audio video, all that stuff.

1:29:12Tim Ferriss:Oh, cool. Yeah. Gemini, honestly, I've been using Gemini more and more just because it's such plug and play. It's fast, too. With G Suite also. Yeah. I mean, 3.5 Flash is a great model. Although the new Sonnet just came out. That's from Anthropic that just came out. And I haven't played with it yet because it was literally launched today. And it's supposed to be fantastic. So what do you think the landscape looks like in a few years? You've got Anthropic and OpenAI Racing to IPO. Let's see where that goes. You've got Mythos slash Fable taken off. Mythos is out tomorrow. Right. Back out tomorrow.

1:29:44Tim Ferriss:Okay. It was a national security threat yesterday, but it isn't today. What do you think? I think the - It's the big three. It's three players. Okay. It's Google, Anthropic, and OpenAI. Mm-hmm. And X is trying, and I would never, ever count out Elon. Obviously, he has the funds to make it happen. while also Anthropic and Google are buying excess capacity from Colossus, right? Yeah, but that means that their product isn't working. Because they bought that capacity for themselves. So that means that no one's using Grok. I mean, I actually like Grok. They have done... I use Grok more than people don't realize.

1:30:20Well, here's what's interesting about it.

1:30:22Tim Ferriss:For current events and synthesizers? Yes, so it has direct access to the X API and it has actually X tools built into Grok. So if you want to get, like you said, current events, news, things like that. And they've also said that it is one of the most grounded models and doesn't hallucinate so that it's really good at. And so on dig, when we relaunch it and we use a lot of AI to kind of like come up with the different stories and all that, we use it a ton because we want that grounded information that is true. And so it's really important to have that. And I, I don't know. I mean, I think I wouldn't count them out.

1:30:56I should probably include them in that list. All right. So big three.

1:30:59Tim Ferriss:Yeah. What do you think things look like in two years you're very good at this i'm not saying obviously this is just fucking bullshitting and speculating but what's your guess i mean i'm pretty heavy into alphabet thanks to you which uh heavy in alphabet yeah yeah i mean like but and then they had a 40 pop on a four trillion dollar company what is going on i mean i haven't even watched is it up well i mean this is this is a while back yeah a while back in ai time which is like dog years So by that, I mean like five months ago. Yeah, listen, exactly. Five months is like 10 years now. So here is why I like Google.

1:31:39They own the full stack. They have their own chips. And so one of the things that I did a deep dive on was the chips that they are building, they really confuse the industry. It's my understanding that they made them insanely high bandwidth and kind of memory throughput when everyone was like, hey, why are you opening up these channels and making them so high bandwidth for this kind of like data flow and i talked to a buddy and he was like yeah everyone was confused at first when they saw the architecture for their their latest ai chips and then they realized that we live in a world right now where a model drops like fable goes live tomorrow on wednesday right and the next open am model goes live in two weeks or whatever because they have that rumored one it's like old software deployment where it was like model trained released out model trained released out that's the cadence we're on right now what google is betting and i know i know they're all thinking this but what google is betting with this high throughput kind of wide memory architecture is the future is continuous learning and so everyone is saying like we're 12 to 18 months out maybe a little bit longer from self-improving models i see yeah So 24-7, it's no longer about like, oh, Mythos came out today.

1:32:58Woo, crazy. It's not about those new models dropping. It's about -

1:33:02Tim Ferriss:Just like a child learning day by day. Tomorrow, it will be better than today, forever. And when that happens, and they own the full stack. So Google's got the chips. Granted, they're going to be constrained by TSMC, which is the only player that's producing. I mean, there's a few others, Samsung and Micron and a few others. But TSMC is like the leader. and they're producing, I believe they're producing Google's chips as well, but they've got the chips architecture, they've got the models, the engineers they're freaking, I mean they lost a great one like a week ago, but it's crazy what they're paying these engineers, did you see some of this?

1:33:35It's like a billion dollars like situation, like it's insane what they're paying some of these people to stick around

1:33:40Tim Ferriss:That's what Meta was doing to Poach also. Meta, I just don't think they're going to make it man. Yeah Listen, they have great businesses Instagram is phenomenal They've got these fantastic assets, but I just don't think they have the talent to pull off what these other bigs are pulling off, you know? So what do you think the, what do the big three look like in two years, do you think? Because Google has a lot of advantages, like you mentioned, right? I mean, also like a vast data center expertise. They have the data centers. They have Android. Yeah. which is like 60 some percent of the population or something like that.

1:34:25So they have the install base. I have a hard time believing that if you believe that AI inference and all the costs associated with AI eventually kind of settles and it's affordable and yes, it'll probably be like a Netflix type plan where we're all like, oh yeah, that's our extra$30 a month to get all the AI shit, whatever. if it's coming on your device and also google's powering a lot of apple shit although apple has some unique tech it's interesting apple is kind of coming up i wouldn't run off apple either apple's another one but they're probably another couple years out i don't know i mean at the end of the day for me i'm old enough now to not want to be like hey this is the 10xer like yeah actually this is interesting i called on your podcast i don't know if you know this but like four years ago, I was like, dude, NVIDIA is going to crush it, blah, blah, blah.

1:35:15There's been some dumb predictions. We've definitely made some bad ones too. So I'm not going to say it's been all good, but we've called out some stuff. In the world of AI, I don't think it's winner take all. Unless somebody hits some kind of crazy escape velocity that is like truly, it's like aware.

1:35:31Tim Ferriss:What do you think? Just I'm curious because you're so much better at this kind of stuff than I am. I'm like good at my dumb little corners here and there, but you've worked at Google and you worked on their ill-fitted social product at one point, right? What was it called? Yeah, Google Plus. Google Plus, right? Yeah, it was horrible. I left right away. Right. And very wisely segue to Google Ventures. I guess my point is, when people think consumer, not enterprise, when they think AI right now, they think ChatGPT, right? Yeah. ChatGPT has raised a ton of fucking money. Yeah. They've got to figure out ads, almost certainly.

1:36:06Tim Ferriss:Yeah. That's not easy. That is very, very, very hard to do. is something like I'm pretty familiar with the ads business at Google. Very hard to do at a high level. However, when average Joe or Jane on the street thinks AI, they think chat GPT. And when I have tried to set up the Gmail API for Claude, the process on the Google side is such dog shit. The UX is terrible. It is so bad. And I'd like to think myself reasonably decent with tech stuff, if not as technical as you are, but pretty good, I would like to think. Nonetheless, I need someone on my staff to walk me through step-by-step to do it because it's so counterintuitive and there are errors all over the place.

1:36:50Tim Ferriss:And then you've got Anthropic, which is, if we are to believe the headlines, on ARR, just crushing on the enterprise side, the fastest scaling business of all time on a lot of different measures. However, they've gotten a number of pretty strong bitch slaps from the administration At the same time, it seems unlikely that any of these frontier labs are going to be left unconstrained by the government. So that's like a huge question. I think China will push that. Okay, tell me. Well, so China has been launching new models and they just did one like a week ago that is on par with Fable. And they...

1:37:31Was that Alibaba or someone else? No, it's... But these are open source models. So it's actually really interesting because China is like, okay, listen, we're going to open source this and people will use our tech. They're almost doing it the American way. Like they're not closed sourcing anything. They're like, okay, here's the free model. Come use ours because we're going to charge you. You can run it yourself if you want locally. And that is going to be increasingly, I think that will be increasingly common. like amd came out i don't know if you saw what she of the ceo she's brilliant she came out with this new box that is this like little four thousand dollar box or somewhere around there and it can run like these massive multi-billion parameter models locally and so those charges that you were getting yeah for you know like a thousand dollars a month or five thousand dollar a month or whatever any ai expenses is now just that one box that just runs the model locally Now, granted, it's probably eight months behind in terms of the model that can run versus the frontier models.

1:38:34Yeah, but for a lot of people, who cares? For a lot of people, who cares? You know? And so, I… So, what do you think?

1:38:41Tim Ferriss:From a business perspective. Yeah. And I know that's tightly related to all sorts of technical considerations, but where do you think Google… I still hate saying alphabet. Let's just say Google… The word on the street is that they have models that are more advanced than Fable. they have not launched them because one the government's going to step in and stop them yeah and two they are very expensive to run yep and it would cost them a lot of money they would lose money doing so and so i think in a year we're really like 12 months will be we won't really know where google's at dude i'm telling you they're holding shit back and it's fucking google like you don't understand my time there i walked it's like sergey took me and i'm not saying this is a flex i'm just like sergey took me and bill maris um who ran google ventures smart dude through bill's amazing google x and this was years ago yeah we got to tour and he was like that's the moonshot factory it's like dude you already work there and like they make you sign shit when you walk in like don't fucking say anything yeah google x is like the willy wonka so i'm like seeing the waymos before they even talked about them like freaking 10 plus years ago you know like before it was even a thing and so i saw all the crazy balloon projects and a couple of those the shutter that i can't even talk about but i'm telling you they're sitting on deck that's like five years out that like don't underestimate how many freaking phds they have working on this shit yeah like you just can't imagine what's under the hood there sure like it's just so for me i'm not a fan of like at this point when i think about investing into the future and this is not investment advice when the anthropics and the open ais and the googles like you name the top five it's kind of almost like what they said back in the day when they had the acronym they used for like netflix google what was the uh changes all the time but you know i'm talking about fang yeah like fang was the thing and there's another one there's another one you're gonna want to own like those five and you'll sit back and you'll be like damn if i'd only just owned google i'd be up like 70%, but you're like, oh, you know what?

1:40:51In combination, I'm up like 30%. The market's doing 10. You'll be stoked, right?

1:40:55Tim Ferriss:You sent me a graph. We can delete this if we need to. Oh, the NASDAQ 100? Yes. Yeah. So, I mean, for you looking forward, right, because you bust my balls about some of the swings that I take, which is good. No, no, you should bust my balls. I bust it because I'm like, Tim, what are you optimizing for, dude? Another zero? You don't need another zero on the bank accounts? I get it, I get it, I get it. But I'm asking you, I mean look we're all looking for the feeling of being alive part of the way I feel alive is by taking swings right my question for you is you're not just going to do S &P 500 I find that hard to believe I dabble okay so if you were I'm like you I bought Waymo stock and you got pissed at me because I didn't offer you any he's such a prick keeps all the shiny stuff for himself he's a greedy little piglet I didn't know you wanted it you 100 % know that I want it because I sent, this was actually turned out pretty well.

1:41:51Tim Ferriss:It's part of the reason why I pulled the trigger on Google was such a simple approach. I took five names, was it? It was like Google, Anthropic, OpenAI, Waymo, handful of other companies. And there's Vercel, Crusoe, a couple of others. And I sent this list out and I sent it to like, I don't know, five smart people I know who are very, very good investors, who have good track records, cross-asset classes. And a few of them sent that to their technical analysts who specialize in different fields. And I was like, maybe, maybe not. And I was like, you have 10 chips. Where do you put those 10 chips as a bet?

1:42:30Tim Ferriss:That's it. No further guidance, no caveats, no explanation. And look, I'm not saying this is the most sophisticated investment thesis in the world, but you know that I want to weigh him out because it was on that list, and it was one of the winners that came back in terms of if we are to believe the consensus of this small cohort. To be fair, I offered you some of my own purchase. Well, I may still take you up on it. Yeah. You just can wait on the six months of the valuation decline. I'm just waiting. Hey, remember, brother? Let me get that at cost. Saw the news. I would love to revisit our conversation from earlier.

1:43:03But I think for the average person listening, the good news is that these companies are going out soon. Meaning they're going to be publicly traded companies. They may seem very expensive and very pricey, and you'd be right to say that. And so did Amazon when it went out in 2000. I mean, what was the market cap on Amazon IPO, though? It was like...

1:43:22Tim Ferriss:It's got to be tiny. No, but no, no, no. It's not about market cap. It's about price to earnings, right? Yeah, okay. So I looked at the price... Well, now, price to earnings will depend a lot. I mean, it's going to be very different for OpenAI and Anthropic, right? Well, what's crazy is, like, SpaceX is, like, 30 % bump on price to earnings on the peak of Amazon. So SpaceX is like, did you invest in SpaceX or no? Yeah, I started investing in SpaceX like 10, 12 years ago. Oh, so you're stoked. I mean, look, yeah, I'm fine. But I would say here also, it's like, if you're like, oh, I missed it because only the fancy people get to invest beforehand.

1:43:56Tim Ferriss:It's like, no, I mean, SpaceX right now, I'm looking at the chart, launched at 60, 160, excuse me. Like had this huge bump obviously, but then dropped down and like you could have bought it for 156, 154, 153. And now it's climbing back up. I mean, there's a lot going on here. And honestly, I still find public equity investing terrifying because there's so many sharks and there's short sellers and like derivatives and all this craziness going on. And like what happens when it's listed and put into these indexes and blah, blah, blah. Like all those dynamics are way beyond my period. I don't do the day trading thing.

1:44:31Well, I don't do day trading. No, I'm just saying like, for example, SpaceX, I don't have a position in SpaceX, but if I did, it would be to hold it for the next 10 years. Here's a good takeaway.

1:44:41Tim Ferriss:You're asking like, what's the takeaway from like my 20 year analysis of the angel investing? It's still incomplete. Like there's a lot left to do. Shopify. Oh God. Well, that's a good example, right? It's like, this is going to sound so dumb and yet duh to so many people who are more, um, just better investors than I am. But yeah, I mean, and I've done pretty well. I think the decisions I made at the time to sell certain things were very logical given the information and my financial status at the time. Totally reasonable. So I don't want to judge a good poker play based on where I am 20 years hence.

1:45:18Tim Ferriss:That's not reasonable. But the takeaway is you've got to let your winners run as long as possible. 100%. I've lost more money by selling stocks early than I've ever probably made buying the original stock. And the other thing I would say also for people listening who are like, oh my God, if these one percenters are jerking each other off any longer, I'm going to vomit. If you had just, and some very famous firm did this, maybe it was Sequoia or Benchmark, I can't recall, but they looked at their gains from initial investment all the way through follow-on rounds to IPO and then six months post.

1:45:56Tim Ferriss:So after lockup for, let's just keep it simple for all intents and purposes. And then they looked at what you would have gained if you bought an IPO and just held for like 10 years and you would have made as much or more if you would just bought as a retail investor. That is the silver lining here, which is I, for some reason, get fed all a lot of these Instagram videos and two of them that - You're on Instagram so much. You send me so many fucking Instagram things. I send some funny shit. You do. So the interesting thing about it is so many times as individuals, and I've fallen into this trap as well, which is you find something that you love and you buy said object when you should actually buy the company.

1:46:36Yeah. So let's just pretend you're going to spend$500 on an iPhone every year since it came out, right? Yeah. And there was this great woman that came in and she was like, okay, how do you just for the first four years of the iPhone coming out, rather than buy an iPhone. Put it in Apple. Just put it in Apple.

1:46:50Tim Ferriss:That's so cool. And it was like hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah. And my buddy is sadly like, I love you, Prager. David Prager, the second the Tesla came out, not the first one, but the one that was consumer friendly, you know, he went out. He's like, he had made a little money and he's like, you know what? I'm going to do it on a splurge. I'm going to deck it out. Spend a hundred grand on this thing. And he got the freaking top of the line Tesla. We did the math for him because we're bastards. and it was like$15 million or something like that. Had he just invested in Tesla the second he loved the product?

1:47:26The moral of the story is if you love something, and this is gonna happen over and over again for decades to come. If you're like, hey, Claude is my shit. I use it every single day. I think it's great because of X, Y, and Z. And they go public, like set it and forget it. Come in, whatever you can afford. I don't care if it's$100 or$1 ,000 or$100 ,000. It's meaningful. at the end of the day. No, it's great advice.

1:47:50Tim Ferriss:I mean, look, that's part of the reason and I have gotten so much shit from this by some VCs, I won't mention their names, who are just like, what? Because they've got their like 30 slide our proprietary investment thesis shit that they show pens and funds and stuff, right? And I'm like, I just try to invest in stuff that I will use every day. And it's not true for everything like Commonwealth Fusion Systems, alright? I'm not using them every day, but SpaceX you know, I mean, outside of Starlink, but it's like there are exceptions but it's like with something like this right where it's like yeah i am eating close to half of my yeah protein calories every day of this stuff and i'm like i should just invest in the company right it's just like that is what makes sense you know the first stock i ever bought this is when i was like dildonics that's something you use every day tell it'll donix yeah can't go wrong uh for people that don't know what dildonics is how it chooses yeah yeah well that'll It'll be another random show.

1:48:45Tim Ferriss:Show notes. It was Pixar. Oh, shit. Yeah, my dad bought me some book on stock investing. Honestly, I couldn't make any sense of it because it was getting into like price to earning and this and that, earning per share. And I was like, ah, I don't really understand this. But - That's so cool your dad bought you that. It was cool. Do you like, that's cool. It's cool. It's cool. It was his way of like showing love, you know? Like we can't all do it the way necessarily people want to receive it. But in any case, the point of that was I loved comics. I tracked comics and animation. And I saw Toy Story, number one.

1:49:20Tim Ferriss:I even saw shorts. And I was like, that is the future. That's amazing. I know that's the future. Exactly. And when I was, whatever, 15 or something, first stock, Pixar. I have the original shareholder poster they mailed out. Like Lasseter and Jobs and stuff. Dude, that's amazing. Yeah. And for me, it's like, look at your credit card statement. Do you know what I mean? I mean, this is not investment advice. I'm just saying this is the way I personally approach it. So informational purposes only, but it's like, yeah, if you're spending hundreds of dollars on like Amazon and Amazon Prime, it's like, well, maybe who knows?

1:49:58Tim Ferriss:Totally. You know, are you going to be spending more or less on that in five years? Like just forget about the market. Forget about analysts like you personally. Will you be spending more or less on this in three or five years time? That's exactly right. Okay. And we'll pop to put something in the intro on this is not investment advice, but it's like it does this stuff. You don't need to be a quant hedge fund manager. And to be fair, like when you look at Buffett's portfolio and the things that he's bought over years, like it's the consumer staples and the things that were just like, he's like, yes, more people will want and drink Coca-Cola in the future.

1:50:32It's a fantastic brand. The margins are impeccable. Like it's a well-run business. I know the CEO.

1:50:38Tim Ferriss:Not prone to disruption. Yeah, exactly. in downturns, guess what? People still drink Coke. Yeah. He's also a clever bastard, though. He's been very good with his aw shucks grandpa branding. He's very good at that, but that dude is a stone cold killer in terms of Geico as cash machine and being the lender of first resort when shit's gone sideways. People call Uncle Buffett and he's like, sure, here's my offer. Take or leave. But yes, very bright guy. What have we missed? the only thing I would say is that tell Dildonics if you want to learn about the latest tech and AI news I relaunched Dig you're showing me some numbers that's crazy we went from 20 ,000 people a week using it to now we have close to 500 ,000 so it's been growing quite a bit and it's pulling across the entire zeitgeist of the web we don't want to start another social network so we pull from X we pull from a few other feeds we're putting in videos from YouTube and TikTok talk and others and it's just been a fun little hobby it's a fun hobby and it's like doing millions of page views a month and i'm proud of that it's like it's awesome to see it working again so yeah it's good digg.com digg.com at kevin rose on instagram and uh yeah sweet what should i say i guess tim.blog you can find a thousand plus blog posts if you want to read about my cadaver on the table my book sales as a result of ai that is a crazy blog post i don't even know if you're Oh, yeah.

1:52:07Tim Ferriss:My all-format book sales. Oh, I saw that. Yeah, isn't it crazy? Well, you look at the graph, and it's like stable annuity, stable annuity, stable annuity. Very predictable. And then in 2013, because what happened in November 2022, chat GPT 3.5, and you see a slip by negative 5%. Then you see a slip by like, I'm making up these numbers, but they're close, negative 28%. Then it's like negative 49%. But it turns out you're going to be okay. I'll be fine. The implications are pretty interesting. And now, if we continue the pace in 2026, down like 67%. Holy shit. These are sort of compounding in the wrong direction, right?

1:52:49Tim Ferriss:It's not quite the right terminology to use, but you get it. So stuff to think about. People can check that out. If you search AI nonfiction, Tim Ferriss, that's a blog post that's actually a pretty interesting read. But on the less dystopian view, ultimately the message isn't dystopian. Tim.blog at Tim Ferriss on Instagram at T Ferriss T-F-E-R-I-S-S on Twitter but like honestly I'm not so active on the socials because I have to delete those from my phone for a couple of years you're listening to the podcast so I don't have to sell the podcast oh Five Below Friday my diary can you add one can I add one what I don't know it's like six bullets well every once in a while if I'm lazy there are I'd say no if I'm lazy and I'm like I don't want to do it because I still do this thing myself.

1:53:34Tim Ferriss:Hold on one sec. We're almost done. Relax. You and your prostate. No, no, it's not the prostate. It's the fact that you gave me tequila. Oh, I gave you tequila? You were over-served? Hold on a second. Just give me two fucking seconds, you old man. You old bastard. I'm not going to make this really long. No, totally. Come on. So, yeah, Five Bill Friday. Every once in a while, you did this yourself. It turns into Six Bullets Saturday if I'm just not feeling it. But yeah, two million subscribers. It's free. Easy to unsubscribe. Tim.blogs slash Friday. And that's all I got. All right. You want to go peel, man?

1:54:05Tim Ferriss:Yeah, I will. All right. Good to see you, bud. Good to see you. Love you, brother. Love you, too. Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off. And that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up. Easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week.

1:54:38Tim Ferriss:It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. and these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog slash Friday, type that into your browser, tim.blog slash Friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one.

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