Actors vs. Studios, and the Existential AI War, With SAG-AFTRA Lead Negotiator

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1:14All three of the big above-the-line guilds, that's actors, directors, writers, they're all up for renewal of their three-year contracts. Of course, the last time these deals were up, SAG-AFTRA and the Writers Guild went on strike. The WGA for 148 days, the act was a little less, and the entire entertainment business in the U.S. pretty much shut down. Nobody wants that, so I think a lot of people are looking to see the tea leaves on this negotiation. Last week, I was in Vegas at CES, the electronics show, and I did a sit-down with Duncan Crabtree Ireland, who's the national executive director of SAG-AFTRA and the lead negotiator for the actors.

1:50He's been on the show before. We talked a lot about AI, but we also talked about what he wants to achieve in this negotiation, some of the big issues that are coming to a head. It's coming up soon. The actors have decided to go first starting February 9th, before the other guilds, and their deal deadline is June 30th. It was an interesting talk, so we decided to turn it into an episode of The Town. So today is the top negotiator for the actors on the upcoming negotiations, the state of AI disruption, the whole Tilly Norwood question, though I refuse to name her, and what the actors actually want this time around.

2:23From The Ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Felony and this is The Town.

2:31All right, so let's get into a little bit more specifics on this. Just briefly summarize what you achieved in your last negotiation with the studio companies and give us a little preview of how you're thinking about the next negotiation, which is going to start pretty soon. Very soon. February 9th, in fact. Yeah, no, it's so in the last negotiation, we came into it with a very specific set of objectives for AI for our members. And, you know, in our contract bargaining, we're not, you know, that's focused on the needs of SAG-AFTRA members and the performers and others that we represent, not society as a whole.

3:08Although I think it took on a bigger impact than even maybe I anticipated at first. Fran helped. Fran helped. Fran helped, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, Fran as a communicator is unparalleled. And the case she made in our first press conference when we initiated the strike to the general public, I mean, that resonated not just with actors around the world, but with everyone around the world. I mean, every place I've traveled since, people talk to me. People are like, oh, my God, the nanny is screaming at me. Yeah, and for good reason. Sometimes when the nanny screams at you, it's because you've done something wrong.

3:43So what did you guys get in that? So what we got, the first thing that we got that was really, really important, I think, is a 16 pages of detailed rules about how AI can and cannot be used in our industry as it relates to performers. Some fans of that out there. And let's be clear, you are not anti-AI. There's a perception that the guilds are trying to prevent the development of AI in general. You are not that. But you are trying to make sure that you guys are a part of the process and that there are guardrails and rules for this. Right. Look, I mean, I have to acknowledge there is a portion of our membership who would like us to just try to block AI.

4:23And so, you know, you can have that debate. But here's the reality, and this is what drove our decision-making here, is there has never been a moment in time where any force can completely stop the advance of technology. That just doesn't work. and unions or others who've tried it have failed. And not only have they failed, but they've given up their chance to direct and channel that technology in the process. So we made a very conscious strategic decision, which was we aren't going to be able to stop AI from happening, but if we fight really hard and we use all of our power of persuasion and leverage, we can channel the way that it's implemented in a way that is better and more supportive of human creativity and our members.

5:02And that's what we have to do. So the 16-point rule, It hasn't stopped the studios from developing AI models and from leaning in there. But what do you think, from your perspective, it has stopped the studios from doing? Well, the first thing is I think it slowed down the implementation of AI by the major studios and really even major independent producers in our industry significantly. And I think that's good. And the reason why that's good is they are taking time to think about ethical questions, about their responsibility in this process. And I know this because part of what we bargained for was the right to meet with all of these companies every six months to get under an NDA and confidentiality.

5:43So any of them who are listening, don't worry, I'm not about to spill the beans. But we get confidential updates on their current activities and their plans with respect to the deployment of AI. And I think that has been far more helpful than people realize in helping calibrate how these companies engage with AI, the pace of it, and the way in which that rolls out. But also, we knew digital replication as one specific facet of AI was already happening. It was happening even before 2023. You know, think Carrie Fisher, Paul Walker, you know, a bunch of Star Wars series that were using it for voiceover, etc.

6:19Done with the participation of their estate. Yes, in those cases, every case that we are aware of done with the consent of either the performer or their estate and with compensation that was negotiated that we consider adequate for those uses. But we also knew this was going to explode and that we couldn't just count on people's good intentions to make sure that kept happening. So, our first priority was getting those digital replication rules in place, and we did that. And I think one of the things that it has stopped is it has stopped the idea of using people's replicated image without compensating them or getting their permission to do so.

6:57It has really, I think, channeled the direction of replication, at least for now, more into fixing problems or addressing small adjustments or dealing with scheduling conflicts as opposed to a wholesale way of doing business. And you're okay with that? If X actor is doing a show and can't go back to Malta to finish a reshoot, you're okay with a digital replica. Yeah, we agreed to that. And I think when you look at it in the big picture, that actually is, number one, supportive of the performer. It's letting them continue to participate in that project and that role. And it's helping make sure that the rest of the cast and the rest of the crew get to do their jobs.

7:36So in the big picture, that is supportive of the human participation in that project. And that's why we're okay with that alongside the other sort of minor adjustments, cosmetic changes, fixing audio problems, things like that that have been approved in that contract. The rest of it in terms of digital replication is really subject to negotiation. And we've tried to put our members in a position, a strong bargaining position to negotiate over what they're willing to do and what they're not willing to do. And some members don't want to be digitally replicated and that's fine. And some are okay with it with boundaries set and that's fine.

8:10and we help them enforce those. The other thing that was really important that we dealt with is the question of synthetic performances. I hate to - Don't say it. Don't say the name. Are you going to say the name? I am not giving her any more press. Right. A certain synthetic figure that's out there has triggered, I mean, and rightfully it's triggered a lot of reaction. And I think, you know, we have provisions in that contract that address that. Specifically, we have a provision that says that the companies have to give us notice if they ever create any performance using a synthetic figure like that.

8:42And I can tell you that as of today, not one company has given us notice of doing that. It's funny that you say that because I was talking to a AI-oriented visual effects person yesterday and they were saying that in their meetings with the studios, anytime you're in a meeting and AI comes up in any context, five more people join the meeting. Good. Because they have to bring them in. One's a lawyer, one's business development, one's, you know, it's like they are terrified of running afoul of this in any way. And good, and they should be, right? But it doesn't mean they're not doing it. No, no, and that's okay.

9:16But, you know, doing it right and doing it in compliance with what they've committed to is what we expect and what we hold them to. But, you know, I think the other point that goes here, and, you know, our new president, Sean Astin, made this point alongside me in a letter we sent to our members, and we've talked a lot about it, is it is really important to maintain the distinction between humans and AI algorithmic models, okay? They are not the same thing. And one of the problems with the person who shall remain nameless, the non-person who shall remain nameless, is that they're not, you know, that's not a person.

9:48It's trying to make people feel like this is a human being when that isn't a human being. That is an algorithmic algorithm. I don't know, neither is Yoda. Well, Jim Henson, you know. I know, but you get what I'm saying. The consumer doesn't necessarily care. You care a lot. The consumers should care, though. They should, maybe, but they don't. And not because they care about the character, although that might be one reason why, but they should care because this is a broader problem for our society than just what we're concerned about for our members. And if you listen to some of the academics who work in the AI field who aren't talking about performance or even the entertainment industry, they're talking about AI in general, it is really important that we continue to have a clear distinction between humanity and AI algorithms.

10:34Because the more we anthropomorphize AI, the more we treat it like it's human. When it does not act like a human, it doesn't think like a human, it doesn't have morals and ethics and responsibility like humans do, that's where a lot of the worst outcomes from AI are happening. Why do you think, you know, the kinds of problems that we're seeing with people and their relationship with chatbots are that way? It's because the chatbot is pretending to be a human and it's not acting like what it actually is. And that is creating a lot of problems. So I think it's really important in our industry and also in society for us to keep a firm line between humanity and AI algorithms.

11:14And I hope that we will find a way to continue to do that. We've done that through the consent requirements and rules regarding digital replication. And we're going to continue to do that through making sure that synthetic performances are seen for what they are. A big example of that is what just happened in the state of New York, where Governor Kathy Hochul signed the nation's first law. Yes. Requiring that when a advertisement contains a AI generated, you know, persuasion piece, testimonial, whatever, that that is labeled as such. So you don't have computer generated algorithms endorsing products that you think now a human has endorsed when in fact it's the product endorsing itself.

11:53Right. You know, so, so things like that are so important and we're going to continue fighting for them. All right, so that's the past. Heading into the new negotiation, what are your top priorities with respect to AI? In 2023, we fought really hard for digital replication. We fought on this synthetic performance piece. Frankly, we didn't get as much as I would have liked us to have gotten on the synthetic performance piece. We got the notification requirement. We got a bargaining requirement, but there's not a lot of detailed rules there that I would like to see. So you want more guardrails on digital replication?

12:24No, on synthetic performance. On synthetic performance, excuse me. Yeah, and so what we've seen with that is, for example, in our music contracts, this is our contract with the major record labels. Also, in our commercials contract with the major advertisers and advertising agencies, we've been able to secure provisions that say if they create something, like if a record label creates a track using entirely synthetic voices, not digital replicas of a human voice, but a generative AI created synthetic voice. If they do that, they're required under our contract to pay the same royalties for streaming that track that they would have paid to a human.

12:58What I want is to make sure that the economic incentives for these companies doesn't drive them to choose synthetics. Yeah, they're doing it because it's cheaper. You want to make it less cheap. In my opinion, if synthetics cost the same thing that a human costs, they're going to choose a human every time. Why? Because the output that the human generates has creativity, soul, heart, spark to it. And if you ask anyone, you know, ask directors, ask, you know, I had a chance to chat with James Cameron about this. He doesn't want to direct AI algorithms. He wants to have that relationship with a human performer who can create something special.

13:32But his movies cost$400 million. Yes. So can you at least understand that your position could be seen as regressive? Well, I can understand that someone might try to, you know, use that as a way of avoiding doing it. Yeah. But it's really not regressive. And the reason it's not regressive is I'm not asking, you know, we're not pushing for them to have to pay more to use synthetic performances. I think if there's a level playing field, that solves this problem, or at least it mitigates it very. And provides a huge advantage for people who are not signatories to the SAG-AFTRA. Well, that depends on where public policy goes in this area, though, doesn't it?

14:10Okay. So you want larger law and policy regimes to reflect what the guilds want? I think so. And I also think that what human talent creates will be a superior product. And I think we can already see this. Some of the music streaming services are awash in AI. It's what a lot of people call AI-generated slop, right? Because it's just repetitive. There's nothing special about it. It's just like a million variations on the same thing. You and I talked when Sora launched, OpenAI launched Sora. I was pretty up in arms. It was, I mean, ridiculous copyright infringement out of the gate. They've walked that back.

14:51They are working with you guys on the Cameo feature so that your members are not, you know, manipulated in their algorithms. Disney went ahead and did a big deal with OpenAI. Did that surprise you? And what do you think about Disney jumping into bed with OpenAI? Well, it surprised me in the sense that I wasn't, I thought that they might wait a little longer before they did. I figured one of the big content companies would be doing something like that in the future. I suspect that it's partially motivated by wanting to be ahead of rulings that will come out in the IP litigation. And also it puts pressure on Google.

15:28They sent a cease and desist. Yeah. Same day. Yes, they wanted... Which we fully support. I mean, OpenAI, for all of the issues there are with them, has shown probably more concern about the issues we've raised with them than any of the other AI companies. Is that true? Yeah. And I think if... Other than the launch of Sora. But when they walked in back. Even with the launch of Sora. They did tell you in advance. They did. A little bit in advance. And we have an amazing committee, our AI task force, which in conjunction with our National Innovation New Technology Committee, these are members of SAG-AFTRA who work together with our staff.

16:01We've been looking at Sora and working with some access that OpenAI gave us to really give them some feedback and help them. I think that the reason the Cameo feature is as robust as it is in terms of individual protection has a lot to do with the feedback that we've given them. But yeah, I wish that all AI companies would start from that baseline and move in a better direction. So it doesn't worry you that this is going to catch on and then the negotiation power is going to be stronger. And eventually you guys will have to acquiesce to them using real voices of these characters and maybe even images.

16:35I don't think we'll ever have to acquiesce to that. Our members are incredibly resilient and strong on this point. But I take the reverse sort of point from it, which is before the public announcement was made about the license deal, I received calls from both of the companies. And the first thing out of the gate was we're not authorizing any licensing whatsoever of human images or human voices of any of your members or anyone else for that matter. Even the Luke Skywalker is the animated Luke Skywalker. That's correct. Yeah. So, you know, I think that reflects them recognizing not only the strength of the concern that we have, but also its power out in the world, in the marketplace, with public policy, officials, with the public.

17:22And I think that is an encouraging sign.

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18:10K-pop Demon Hunters, Saja Boys Breakfast Meal and Huntrix Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja Boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day. It is an honor to share. No, it's our honor. It is our larger honor. No, really. Stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side. Participating McDonald's while supplies last. What are you doing about Grok? Grok is now using AI to undress people on X Twitter, including some of your members. Yeah.

18:51Well, so first of all, I should say this is not a new problem, right? Deepfake porn has been a problem since the technology of deepfakes started. But Grok is on Twitter. Grok is in Tesla. It's a mainstream product. Right. So when you have these sort of niche tools that certain people are using to do this, that's one thing. That is the biggest concern I have about Grok enabling this is that it sort of sends a signal that this is acceptable in some way because a mainstream AI tool is allowing this to happen. Now, there are, I think that Grok and its parent companies should be very concerned about the fact that with the Take a Down Act, with other state laws against deepfake porn, that there may be some culpability there.

19:35And I also think this is going to continue to— Perhaps maybe from a SAG-AFTRA lawsuit? Perhaps, or from a number of other sources. And let's not forget, you know, the kind of protection that the Communications Decency Act has given some people, you know, I think there is a very strong case to be made that that does not in any way apply to AI algorithms or generative AI tools that are creating the output. That's not, you know, that's not a neutral host. They are choosing to allow that. They are choosing to allow that. Yes. I know it's hard for you to assess this, and obviously you don't want to give anything in negotiation power.

20:08But man, if there's another strike at a time when this industry is reeling and hasn't fully recovered from the last one, that's got to play into your head a little bit, right? Well, look, we are doing our part to help make this a low drama, successful negotiation process. And when I say that, what I mean is we are starting on February 9th. In 2023, we started on June 7th, if I'm remembering the date correctly. Okay, so that is months earlier. We want to give everyone all the time in the world that is needed to discuss the complex agreement that we have with many constituencies and a lot of concerns that need to be addressed.

20:50And did you do that in part to get in front of the writers who are much more vociferous about their concerns? concerns? No, really, we did it because we think that we need, we want to allow enough time to get through the, I think it's fair to say our collective bargaining is probably the most complex of the three above the line unions, just because of the vast number of categories and different things that it covers. And so we wanted to allow plenty of time to do that. We recognize that there is a, the beginnings of a recovery in the industry, and we want to help support that as much as possible.

21:27But I want to be crystal clear, we are not going to accept a deal that isn't fair to our members. The AMPTP knows that. We've told them that. They understand that. And there is no reason there should need to be a strike because these companies should come to the table in good faith as we are, and I assume they will, and we will find the path forward. But I certainly am not ruling out a strike. A strike is a possibility. But with a start in February 9th, with weeks and weeks of time for us to negotiate, there's no reason that we shouldn't be able to reach a fair deal. Okay. There's a, you have a, people like that.

22:06You, did you bring these people? Well, I mean, some of them I do know, but I will just, I mean, you know, our members want to work. Our members don't want to be on strike. Of course, nobody wants to be on strike. That is the goal, So Greg Hessinger, the new head of the AMPTP, first year in the job, first negotiation, first major negotiation. He used to work at SAG. He did, yeah. So how does that change the equation here? He also used to work at AFTRA, by the way. So I knew him when he was the executive director of AFTRA, and I worked for him when he was the executive director of SAG. And then since that time, he has been— So he's just going to rubber stamp what you want, right?

22:41Well, since that time, he was on the other side of our commercials negotiations multiple times. And no, he is definitely a formidable negotiating partner and adversary. But you guys talk. We talk. I've known him for over 20 years. I think he will have a different approach to negotiations than his predecessor. That's not a criticism. That's just a reality. I think that any new leader brings a new vibe. And so far, the dealings we've had with him have been very productive. and I think one of the things that will benefit everybody is for all of us on all sides to stay focused on the key priorities and not let minor tangential issues derail the process.

23:23And I think that that is something that we have the potential to accomplish. So this negotiation is playing out against the sale of Warner Brothers, one of the major employers. You guys have sort of put out statement saying that you're kind of looking at this and monitoring the situation. Are you going to take a position on this sale? And do you have a preference of which of the two buyers it is? We might take a position on this sale. We haven't decided yet. The reason we haven't decided yet is we are doing a really deep dive analysis on what all of the potential pathways forward are. It's not good.