Colbert Is Cancelled. Is the Late-Night Dam Bursting?

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1:56CBS fired Stephen Colbert. It's not an immediate cancellation. He will continue on The Late Show until next May. But then not only will Colbert end, the entire Late Show franchise is going away. Remember, this is the number one show in broadcast late night. So it only gets about 2.5 million viewers on Linear these days. So lots of angles here and very smart people in town are calling and texting me with very different takes on this. It's actually really fascinating. First, the economics. In some ways, we've been seeing the writing on the wall for a while now. I was talking earlier this week about Seth Meyers being in danger at NBC.

2:31These late night shows just don't draw the audience they used to. And for the most part, they don't make money. The ad revenue for all of late night is down 50 % over the past seven years. And still, the late show costs more than$100 million a year to produce. Remember, it's a daily show that's in production about 40 weeks a year. And according to my sources, it's been losing more than$40 million a year. And unlike Jimmy Kimmel and Jimmy Fallon, Colbert doesn't have as big of a digital footprint on YouTube and TikTok and Instagram, where most of us watch these late night clips these days. Steven also isn't as much of a face of the network as the NBC guys and Kimmel are.

3:09They do a lot more than just host late night. And then there's the political element. Why fire Colbert now? That's the question. Obviously, there's a lot going on at the parent company. Paramount just paid$16 million to settle the Donald Trump litigation over 60 minutes. The company's$8 billion sale to Skydance is still before the FCC, which has to approve it. Many people in town believe that politics is playing a role in the Colbert cancellation. The Writers Guild has actually called for an investigation of the matter, especially since Trump was celebrating the cancellation this morning. David Ellison, the incoming owner of Paramount, he wasn't officially involved in the decision, but did he wink and nod at George Cheeks, the head of CBS?

3:54Maybe throw Trump another bone here to grease this deal. And is Jon Stewart next? He's on Comedy Central, another Paramount channel, and he's been critical of Trump. What is the future of the late night genre in general? Can it survive? All legitimate questions and a fascinating topic. So I wanted a real insider to come on the show today. Nick Bernstein is a veteran late night TV executive and producer. He oversaw the Late Late Show with James Corden as late night programming VP for the West Coast at CBS. He also held a similar job at NBC working with Fallon and Jay Leno and others. He left CBS last month, so he's free to talk with us about the Colbert cancellation, the Trump question, and where does late night go from here?

4:36From the Ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellany and this is The Town.

4:44okay we are here with nick bernstein who is a veteran late night television executive formerly with cbs worked on the late late show for a long time was an nbc before that welcome nick hi it's great to be here thanks for having me on this emergency pod it is an emergency pod of sorts I wanted to have an insider on who has worked at CBS and in the late night world because there is so much swirling in the media, the political world. Everybody seems to care about this Colbert situation. And we're going to get into the economics and the logistics of producing late night and how that has changed over the past decade or so.

5:29But I guess we'll just start with the question everybody is talking about. You know all these people. You know the landscape. Do you think CBS killed Colbert to appease Trump? Well, I just have to probably start by saying I left in June of 2025. And Matt, it was a different time. A month and a half ago was a different time? It was a totally different time. I can't really speak to that. I mean, the optics, obviously, don't look great. And you can see all the articles and all the people that are talking about it. Matt, you're talking to people on both sides here. What do you think based on what you're hearing?

6:06Honestly, it is not 100 % knowable. And I don't think we will ever know. Even if Donald Trump goes on television tomorrow and says, yeah, I told him to cancel Colbert. And they did. I don't think we can believe that. I think that it is probably a little bit of both here. The economic situation is very real. This is a challenge genre, and this is perhaps the most challenged of those shows, given what we've talked about. And I also think that the timing matched up here. Colbert's in the last year of his deal, they looked at this and they said, OK, what are we going to do here? It probably did not hurt that letting him go would appease Trump at a key moment.

6:48We know David Ellison has met with the FCC, and this is on the verge of getting approved. So having it out now is not a bad thing for them. And they can still say that this was all an economic decision and be truthful about that. I know this is kind of wishy-washy, but I think it's an element of both. I think it's primarily economic with the politics cloud hovering over everything here. it feels to me like this conversation is really about the economics of late night. And I say that because I just went through the economics of late night and how challenging it is having worked on the 1230 show on After Midnight after I worked on Corden.

7:29All right, so let's do that. Let's talk about the economics and then we can get into the political swirl. Because I don't think most people, even in the business, most people truly understand how much the economics of these shows has changed over the past few years. So get into that for us. I reported in my newsletter that Late Show was costing over$100 million a year. They do 40 weeks of shows. They have 200 employees. Everybody makes a decent salary there. Not everybody, but a lot of them do. These are expensive shows. And the pressure has been on for years now, even before COVID, to cut costs because the economics are just not working.

8:12the ads aren't there. Well, I mean, the pressure's been on for decades. I've been through times at NBC where we had to cut 20 % of a budget on shows like The Tonight Show and Saturday Night Live and Conan and Fallon. Seth Meyers lost his band last year. Yeah, we're all in it. I mean, I just worked on a show. We went from a show at Corden, which was a relatively economical show, to After Midnight, which was about half of the budget of Corden. And even at that point, our hope was to break even. So you just said basically Corden was replaced with a show that cost half as much as since. And his was already cheap.

8:50And give or take. Yeah. And they were losing money. Not a lot, but they were losing money. And I mean, you think about all these shows, you can talk about$100 million in 40 weeks. You are talking about 150, 160 episodes of television. Yeah. $100 million. So yes, it's expensive, but also per episode, when we talk about other shows and everything else that's on, that comes on once every two or three years, those are$10 to$20 million an episode. So give or take, these were considered pretty economical shows. Yeah, people were tweeting at me, but SNL, you think Late Show is more expensive than SNL?

9:24And I'm like, SNL does 20 episodes a season. Colbert is doing 40 weeks. And so if you've gone from losing half of the ad revenue in about an eight year span for all of late night, the show's budgets did not reduce by 50 percent. No. In eight years either. And so these shows do get expensive. All shows get expensive. The longer that they're on, the rubber has to hit the road at some point. And unfortunately, we're in this place right now. And that's where some of the reporting matters, because people are like, well, why now? Why was it canceled now? And CBS has been looking at this. I mean, you can confirm this.

10:03They've been looking at all these shows for a while now, right? Yeah, I mean, I should reiterate, like I worked on the West Coast. And so my shows were the West Coast shows. I didn't work directly on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. But I certainly worked with Colbert on After Midnight. He was a producer on the show, and he was on the show, and Spartina in that group too. The thing that happens in any situation with a year left in the contract is this is about the time where people would be negotiating the next contract. Yes. And my understanding is that the Colbert people were kind of wondering, oh, like, are they going to come back to us?

10:42Are they going to make an offer? Like, we haven't heard from them. So that's why it started to happen now, because going into this last year of his contract, you would typically do it now. And the optics being what they are, it's understandable that a lot of people are asking the questions that they're asking. But the truth of the finances is, if you're going to tell somebody this week that this is going to be the last year of their show, then this is also the time that they're going to want to tell their staff and the audience that this is the last year of the show. We did this on Corden. It's the humane thing to do for people who've worked on a show for, on the Corden end, it was eight years on Cold Air.

11:26Well, it's going to leak. It is very hard to keep these things quiet. And people are wondering. People are wondering what they're going to do next also. It's a lot to handle. I mean, I've worked on quite a few shows now that have ended in these spaces. And there are people who started at 24 or 25. And when the show ends, they're in their 40s. And it's a really challenging time. So I certainly feel for all of them. And I hope that they're able to, once they absorb this information, enjoy this year. Well, the interesting thing is if this were purely politically motivated, why would they let Colbert sit in that chair for another 10 months?

12:08It doesn't really make a lot of sense. Why would they let Adam Schiff say what he said last night after the first comment? I mean, I guess you can make the argument that all they needed to do was telegraph to Trump that they are making moves on his behalf and that, you know, he has to sit out 10 months and then he will get his wishes. But there's a lot of damage that Stephen Colbert can do in 10 months. And from my understanding, CBS does not, other than normal standards and practices, does not tell him what to say on the actual show. just based on everything that I've been through with all of the shows.

12:43And obviously the Gordon show didn't live in the political comedy landscape in quite the same way. But we were able to say whatever we wanted about whatever we wanted. Although at the time, the parent company wasn't being sold for$8 billion. I mean, that's the whole thing here. Everyone's like, oh, is Kimmel going to get fired next? Disney is not going through this kind of sale process. I mean, I think if Kimmel gets fired, it's because the same thing is happening. And we'll talk about whether this is the dam breaking, but the economics of these shows are not as good. And the Colbert show had particular challenges because unlike Kimmel and Fallon, he is not the face of the network.

13:27They don't put him out there in the same way. He doesn't host other shows for CBS. And Kimmel pops up on the game shows. He pops up on Millionaire and other stuff. And Fallon is on the Macy's parade. And he's kind of the mascot of NBC. He's in the theme parks. The worth of these shows to any of the networks is, do you see them both as a vehicle for stars, a vehicle for star makers? The only place you can see the George Clooney's and Julia Roberts and massive, massive stars on your network in any type of semi-regular way and also as an incubator for talent, period. Because across the board, you have people on these shows who have had an opportunity and found a way to figure out how to make television on a daily basis in a quick turnaround way.

14:17And you can trust them to make the next things. The hosts as well, when they have ideas, have sold left and right. And you have to find the ways. And I'm not even talking about digital either, which, as you know, is where most of these shows are going to really make their waves. Well, but that was another weakness for Late Show. It has a little less than 10 million subscribers on YouTube. Kimmel has 20 million. Fallon has 32 million. So right there, it's a smaller business than these other shows. certainly the 1230 shows, which is where Fallon started. And that's when they were the first ones who really, really found their way on YouTube.

14:56Colbert also, you have to factor in, no show got DVR'd more than Colbert also. So there's some place where people are finding these shows and watching them. The question of how do we then aggregate all of those people and viewers and make sure that we can sell advertisements that are going to make as much money as it costs to those shows, that has just become a bigger and more difficult conversation. Yeah. I mean, we now know consumers are spending more time each day streaming TV than watching broadcast and cable TV combined. And that's the question here. Is the traditional late night format a relic of the linear era where it will now slowly and painfully one by one go away?

15:42or is it going to transfer over to streaming in some way that we don't know yet? I just looked at the numbers for John Mulaney's Netflix show. They were really bad. And we love Mulaney, friend of the town, but he was getting 500 ,000 views for every episode of Everybody's Live. So, and now Mulaney did not do a mainstream show, but would a mainstream Colbert-style show even rate on a streamer? Well, I think it is going to happen. I mean, I remain optimistic about the late night format, maybe a little less optimistic than I was a couple months ago. Oh, really? Why? Because I'm no longer working on one at 1230 and the Colbert conversation.

16:28But it's the thing about... Actually, let me go back to Mulaney for one second. You can talk about the Mulaney ratings, and I only saw it based on your reporting. and when I see like half a million viewers or what that show is getting per episode, that's what you would get on cable. That's what you might get on after midnight on a regular week. It's in that same space. So once again, the cost of it, I don't know if that's going to be justified, but that show plays more like a 1230 or cable show. If a Stephen Colbert style show existed in a space, in a streaming space, I do think that it could garner the same level of viewership as you can in our podcast.

17:10I do think so. I just don't know. I don't know. And I'd love to see Netflix give Colbert a call and try it. Well, the one thing that they haven't done yet is also they haven't done day and date shows yet. Meaning the shows normally, Corden, After Midnight, Colbert, all of them usually will record at four o 'clock. We'll edit here and there for an hour or so. And then that show airs. That hasn't happened on any of the streamers in a day and date way yet. Mulaney is live. I think that's because I assume they have to be live. It's the only way they can do the show. Well, they also are, you know, it's a whole Netflix ad pitch where they're selling these shows as live and most people don't watch them live, but they do say, I mean, Kimmel used to be live when it started.

17:52It's called Jimmy Kimmel Live and now it's not. They had about a week and then they learned. We all learn eventually. I think that there is something fun and ubiquitous about these shows and the ability to do something interesting and different with major stars and major talent. There's a space for Olivia Rodrigo to do fun things with Kimmel that she doesn't really do in any other way. And I think there's value there. Same thing with like when Seth Meyers and Rihanna went day drinking. Like I've never there's nowhere else I can see something like that. And so when you think of that as a concept, I don't know why that wouldn't also be relevant and play in a streaming universe.

18:29And it's weird because there's the premature or the perception of prestige because it airs on television at 1230 in a franchise called Late Night that we know, even though 90 % of the people are going to watch it on YouTube. Would Seth be able to get Olivia Rodrigo to go day drinking with him if he was just a YouTube show? Well, I guess if you ask the fine folks at Hot Ones. Yeah, or Chicken Shop Date. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. There's something great about the space and the imprimatur and the largesse of it, but I don't think that it's the only way to do it. Yeah, we're just talking about these guys having YouTube channels, which is essentially, for most young people, who they are and what they do.

19:20They're famous guys who have YouTube channels that do funny stunts, and that's where we're headed. but they also make$20 million a year. And that is the problem. One of the problems with the economics of the format is that the money was set in another era and these guys make a lot of money and no shame to them. They should. They're great talents and they do a great job. But like the fact that CBS didn't even go to Colbert and say cut costs. They knew that him taking a salary cut or firing some people or making pretty significant changes, that wasn't going to be enough. There's a certain point for all of these shows.

20:03If you ask them to reduce as much money as you can, there's only so much you can take out of even the host's salary in order to still maintain. The way that we tried to do it on Cordon is find ways to do integrations into comedy bits. Can we work with advertisers, the Starbucks and the McDonald's of the world, to find ways to do comedy with big people that still uses their brands without feeling gross to anyone. Yeah. And I think that Corden and Fallon have a little easier time with those integrations because they are not politicized. Colbert is a left-wing show, and that's part of the reason why he was successful.

20:41When he finally embraced that, he went to number one, and that has been his lane. But it's also a little bit polarizing for brands. I'm sure that there are agencies that have said that and would argue that, but like I look back at what he did on the Colbert report, which once again was as political as Colbert was, and he did, I think, Doritos in there. And so like, there's, there's room for them, if they can figure out what it is, it is hard and you you're balancing the comedy with the need to make money. And I think more people are more willing to do that now than than at any point. Yeah.

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22:09He embarks on a dangerous journey in search of hope, starring Jacob Lorty, Josh Brolin, Margaret Qualley, Allison Janney, and Guy Pearce. The Dog Stars, now playing in theaters and IMAX. I want to float a conspiracy theory and get your take on it. So George Cheeks, the head of CBS, he's the co-CEO at Paramount. He is planning to go over to the new regime when Skydance takes it over. Right. So George is, I think, trying to impress the new guys that are coming in. And I think the timing of this is partly George Cheeks telegraphing to David Ellison and the new Skydance people that he's unemotional about this stuff.

22:52He will make the tough cuts. He will cancel a sacred cow like the late show if it makes financial sense. And also in the process, he is taking the heat off of David Ellison, who was probably going to cancel Colbert when he comes in because they have all sorts of cuts planned. And now Ellison doesn't have to do that because George Cheeks has already done it. And that's a reason for doing this now. What do you think about that? I don't honestly think I can speak to that at all. Oh, because you know I'm right. No, I don't know anything about David Ellison or Jeff Shell. I've never talked to any of those guys.

23:35I know George is doing everything he can to keep CBS afloat, period. Yes. And I don't really know anything else about the machinations of the decisions that went into this week? That is a very diplomatic answer. And this is when I wonder when Lucas Shaw is joining it so you can ask him the harder question. All right. So I will take that as a no comment. But you do know that CBS has been debating this a long time. And I want to make that clear because so much is out there right now. And we don't know. Like, we have no idea if there is some secret blood pact between the Trump administration and Paramount and Skydance where certain things have to happen in order for this to be approved.

24:24Ellison has met with Brendan Carr, the FCC chair. All signs are that this merger is going to be approved in the next week to month. And maybe this is part of it. I'm not saying I know. But what I am saying is that the economics of late night have been pointing in this direction for a long time. And you know that as well as anyone. Yeah, I do. I mean, I lived through a time where NBC gave Jay Leno a 10 o 'clock show and you were overseeing that and wondering whether that's the end of how primetime works, period. And then everything that happened after that was the question of what is late night now?

25:07And what does this mean? So let's go through a scenario here. Who's the last man standing in late night? It's probably Lorne Michaels, right? Well, Lorne Michaels is going to live to 150. But got to assume Seth Meyers is sweating right now. He's the only 1230 guy left. You see Colbert canceled. You see the economics. And you see that one of the reasons Seth has been protected is because of Warren. I just don't know how long Seth can be protected anymore. So do you agree he might be first to go next? I don't like to prognosticate that way. The way I think about it is every network is going to treat their shows differently.

25:47A lot of it is based on, once again, how they value the shows and whether they consider them incubators and want to continue to put that talent in various places. So that could be Seth hosting things outside of late night. That could be whatever conversation might be happening about the future of Saturday Night Live, which you've asked him. I have alluded to, yes. It's the same thing about Kimmel. When you hear him talk in interviews and sometimes he talks about wanting to retire and sometimes he talks about wanting to continue. I hope he continues for a very long time. I think Disney will let Kimmel go out on his own terms.

26:27He is valuable to that company in many ways. He has relationships with all the people at Disney, and maybe they cut his salary. Maybe they cut costs. They already let him take the summers off. I think that show will continue. Fallon is the same way. I actually think Fallon will be the last man standing in late night because he and Myers are signed through 2028, by the way. Kimmel is in the final year of his deal, so maybe Kimmel will re-up. Maybe he won't. but I think Fallon will be the last man in part because he does other stuff. And in part, because the tonight show is a brand and it is sold as packages with a bunch of other products that NBC sells that I just don't see them getting rid of that.