Is Film School Still Worth It? With a Top Dean.

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1:21Hopefully not ones where Lucas and I are droning on about the Dodgers. This show is not a substitute for a formal education, of course. Or is it? Not the town in particular. But is the real-world experience of trying to break into Hollywood on your own better than a formal education at a film school? It's the age-old question, and it's even more relevant in this day and age when the traditional film and TV industry is shrinking. Anyone can make content on their phone and distribute it worldwide on YouTube and have a career that way. And information about the inner workings of the entertainment business is available online or even on a podcast.

1:56I think ever since the invention of film schools alongside Hollywood back in the 1920s, there's been that debate among students. Is it worth it? Is spending a few years and tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars learning how to be a filmmaker or a creative executive or a visual effects supervisor or whatever specialty, is that the correct path? Or is it better to sling coffee on a movie set or work in the UTA mailroom more. Just use those tens of thousands of dollars to make stuff. Develop your own talent that way, to the extent you have any. Quentin Tarantino once said, I didn't go to film school.

2:31I went to films. But others, everyone from Spielberg to Spike Lee to Ryan Coogler, they speak pretty highly of their experience, connections they made there. There are dozens of accredited film schools offering masters of fine arts in this country, more overseas. When I was at the Hollywood Reporter, We started ranking them every year. One of the editors there was an early mentor to me and helped put together that list. He did a bunch of stuff there, including inventing the popular roundtable series that you've probably seen online. He eventually left THR and became the dean of a film school himself.

3:02Stephen Galloway, who over the past five years has been the dean at Chapman University's Dodge College of Film and Media Arts in Orange County. Stephen graciously agreed to come on the show and answer the uncomfortable question, the one that every film school dean doesn't really want to get asked. Is film school really worth it? That's the topic today from The Ringer and Puck. I'm Matt Felony and this is The Town.

3:30Okay, we are here with Stephen Galloway, who is dean of Dodge College's film and media arts program at Chapman University. Did I get that title right, Stephen? Well, you did, but as we know, titles are the easiest thing to give away. When people ask you for more money, it's a problem. How is it that you have not been on the town? We've been doing this show more than three years. You have not been on the town. You are a friend of mine. We worked together a very long time at Holliday Porter. You were a very early mentor of mine there, and you have never been on the town. How is that possible? Thank you.

4:04I mean, I love this show, and so am I what you're doing. I'm terrified of being too grilled by you, even though I encourage you to ask me. Oh, stop, please. You taught me. I learned it from you. No, you know, when I do my next book, I'd absolutely love to because I do think it's very relevant. It's about Hollywood in 1939. Oh, it is? Oh, that's fun. That's the big year when all the, you know, Snow White and Wizard of Oz and everything came out. Not Snow White, but Wizard of Oz, Gone with the Wind. When did Snow White come out? 37. Ah, okay. I think, in what I've read, I think it was still playing in 39 because it was one of those that played for years.

4:43Because people talk about that year as like the watershed year in cinema. Speaking of Hollywood, I want to talk about a subject that comes up a lot. We have a lot of film school listeners of this show. And they often will come up to me and they've asked us to do a topic like this. And for whatever reason, we have not. You have graciously agreed to come on the show. So I'm going to start by reading parts of an email that Craig and I received from a student. I don't want to say who or what school. It was not your school. This is what the email said. We spend years learning theory and craft, yet step out into a job market that's shrinking, hyper-competitive, and often built on connections more than merit.

5:27There's a real conversation to be had about whether film school actually prepares you for Hollywood, and if not, what does. This uncertainty has led to rising dropout rates, anxiety, and burnout. Many of my peers are questioning if the path is even sustainable. There's a strange irony in how film majors are both romanticized and ridiculed. We grow up believing it's the dream path into Hollywood, only to realize the industry often undervalues the very education meant to prepare us for it. So welcome to the town, Stephen. how do you respond to that one? So this is actually beautifully written email.

6:08Yeah, I'll put you guys in touch. He's very smart. I'm always happy to speak to anybody who wants to email me. I'll give you my email, sgalloway at chapman.edu. Oh, I don't mind. Beware. Okay. But it's a legitimate point. I think a lot of film students, this has always been the case, but these days in particular with the democratization of the tools to make stuff and the perception that the industry is shrinking and that there's fewer opportunities. Like, how do you address a student like that who's really questioning the value? First of all, to question the question, film school is a very broad term.

6:46And there are many film programs that aren't strictly film schools. And there are a few great film schools. And you'd actually be shocked at how few students are in film school. There are roughly 19 million undergraduates in America. Universities give out between 5 ,000 and 9 ,000 degrees that are film-related every year. That's undergrad. Yes. Now, look at those numbers. This is a tiny, tiny percentage of students doing undergraduate degrees. But then what about graduate schools? Because I'm talking mostly about people who decide to go to graduate school for film to get a master's in finance.

7:26But that's an even tinier number. For instance, we bring in 375 freshman undergraduates every year. We bring in about 110, max 120 graduate students. So I do actually want to separate the two because the bulk of the film school education is actually an undergraduate education. Yeah, no, I get that. And I believe in undergraduate education. It's incredibly important. And it's not for teaching you a craft. It's teaching you to think and approach things questioningly, skeptically. And if you've done that and you're given a script to write coverage on and you recognize that this is a ripoff of something else or that you can learn from Orson Welles how to make this better, you have a huge advantage.

8:13I will tell you this is something that we've increased in our program and so should every film school because this is what starting jobs are. So if you're Natasha Lyonne bringing in Russian Doll to someone who's never seen Groundhog Day, that is a problem. Right. And a good film education should prepare you for that. Right. But I mean, this email suggests the good film education could be had by watching every title on Netflix. So there's so many aspects to a good film education. Harvest film studies, Harvest craft. We have a class called Finding a Job, you know, that Danny Halstead teaches to prepare students for that environment.

8:52500 students each year get internships through our career center. That prepares them for that environment. But just sticking to an undergraduate education for a second, 40 % of what you do is general education. And the goal here is to teach you to think in a very, very changing world. You know, Matt, you started to be a lawyer. You were the editor of the book, The Student Newspaper. Now you're doing a podcast. I went to two films. When you put it that way. Yes. And I had a career in journalism. I learned a lot. By the way, one of the most valuable things I learned, I remember Art Murphy, very famous writer for Variety, who did a class in the economics of the industry.

9:32For decades, that served me because I'm sure you and I remember this. We did a story about how much money Sandra Bullock made from gravity. Oh, yeah, of course. I remember the angry phone calls when they didn't want us to publish it. Yes, you dealt with those. I dealt with having to get the numbers right. And it all came down to, was she a first dollar participant? What does that mean? What does profit actually mean? Well, that's stuff we talk about on the show all the time. But that's kind of my point. It's like, do you need a film education to understand the economics of the business? and do you need the nitty-gritty of a cinematography class to understand how to make a good-looking piece of content?

10:17And that's the crux of what I think a lot of students ask themselves before deciding to go to film school. Do I need this? How do you address that for graduate students thinking of going to film school? Do I need this? So my first point was a defense of an undergraduate education. And by the way, higher education is truly in crisis in America. A graduate education is a different thing. And where you're going and what you're studying make a gigantic difference. So, again, I absolutely believe that anything you can do that's going to deepen you, enrich you mentally, intellectually, is going to help you in ways you don't necessarily know further down your career.

11:01But then there are specific programs. Yes, if you're a cinematographer, you absolutely need that education because you can pick things up over a 10, 15 year period working. We have two problems. Number one, what is the job you're going to get? How well prepared are you for that job? And then you picking things up piecemeal as opposed to sitting because I've sat in cinematography classes where they're looking for hours at different lenses and different lights and different focal lengths. and this is a jam-packed two years where you get mentors assigned to you if this is done well this prepares you extremely well but by the way there are many students i discouraged from doing a master's degree because i'm horrified by student debt the average student debt for undergraduates in america is something like 42 000 graduates is 106 000 yeah it's crazy and most of the top film schools now, the private ones, are between$50 ,000 and$60 ,000 a year.

12:07Yeah, I mean, ours is$51 ,000. You know, you get some discounts. We get a lot more undergrad distance. And I'm terrified of that. Would I pay that myself? Only if I really believe there's an end goal. So what is the end goal for most of your students? So we're a conservatory. So you come and you study producing, cinematography, writing for the screen. We have film and media studies students. Each one has a different end goal. If you're a producing student, the end goal is to get one of those jobs at CAA or WME or UTA or work for a great producer, people like Lucy Fishin and Doug Wigg who regularly hire up students.

12:45And those producers are hiring students after film school rather than just any student before film. And this is a key point. Most of them do, yes. Okay. So there you go. That's what you pitch, is that there are jobs available only to graduates of film school. You said only, and I'm questioning the word only, but it massively helps. But this student that emailed me is questioning only because his fear is that it's a connections-based or randomness-based or bottom-of-the-barrel UTA assistant job that you have to start in regardless of your education background. So why not just start when you graduate college or even before?

13:30You know, a lot of these early moguls, they didn't have educations. They just went straight to the business. Yeah. So not every path is right for everybody. You know, for some people, it's going to be better to get that education that really helps you. Some other people are going to be very entrepreneurially minded. And by the way, with a shrinking workplace, it's critical that we teach students to think entrepreneurially. We're putting classes in about entrepreneurship because with this knowledge, you can actually create businesses that hire other students. but it is still the best path into the business.

14:07This idea of nepotism, sure, nepotism counts to some degree, but Matt, you know perfectly well when we talk about hiring people, we're going for people we know who are good. I know. Not people who are the sons and daughters of. Yeah, but there are often those paths. There's 30 ,000 people that want a couple of jobs in the mailroom. The person who's related to the producer probably gets the job. First of all, this is a vast exaggeration. And I tell you, we have dozens of students who get those mailroom jobs. Okay, all right. But it's also the best. So just to clarify, each program is different and has different value.

14:46Some film schools, it's a general film education as a graduate program. If you're at the AFI or Chapman, you're really learning about one thing. The specialties, I get that a little bit more. The specialties where it's a real craft. It's not something where after school you're going into a generalist job to kind of learn how to ascend in the business. It's a craft job, costume design, sound design, that you want to have a resume of expertise in order to focus on that when you get out of school. Exactly. So this is the majority of the students. And then you have the directors or the writers or the producers.

15:26And again, there are different paths. I went from being a directing student to writing about the film business. Because I realized writing and film were two of my great passions. Places like The Sphere are going to be hiring these students. There's a company downtown, Orbital, which specializes in virtual production. They hire our students because they are taught those skills. So each different major and each different program is going to prepare you in different ways. What percentage of your students now come in with a goal of being a digital creator, of making videos for the internet rather than dealing with the gatekeepers of traditional Hollywood?

16:02Whether they come in like that or not, we teach them that. You do? Yes. Here's how to make your screen grabs look like Mr. Beast? Well, no, but if you're working in verticals, which is a great way in for young people, we prepare for that. There are classes on different media that you're going to work in. We changed our writing program so it's not feature screenwriting or television writing, but writing for web, verticals, any screen. Uplighting. You need uplighting. You need a week on the Kim Kardashian uplighting. Now you come to the other question. What do students do when they're in film school?

16:41I'm always shocked at the ones who grab every opportunity and the ones who don't. So if you are prepared to use film school well, then it's a terrific shrinking thinking of what could otherwise take you 10 or 15 years. And there is a sort of, you're already past the first barrier because there are so few, as I said, there are a few thousand people in graduate film school programs. Yeah, so you're making the point that it is a culling of the herd to begin with, that you are giving yourself an advantage in the race simply by being at one of these schools. Absolutely.

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18:51What about these schools that promise that you'll be able to make your film? I've heard a lot of skepticism about that. People pick film schools because they advertise, well, you know, we allow a certain amount of people to actually make their films. And it ends up being like five of a class of 200 get to do that. Yes, and I'm completely against that. I find absolutely objectionable that one of the films that I went to, I'm not going to name it because I dropped out, held that promise. And then you get there and you realize everybody's in competition to make a handful of thesis films. So every graduate student, every graduate directing student makes thesis film, among many others.

19:30So that's part of our culture. And by the way, we subsidize it. We give$20 ,000 for each graduate thesis film. We also limit what students can spend because I'm so appalled by the debt that students face. That's interesting. And a lot of these production costs have come down for the lower end of production. Obviously, at the higher end, it's more expensive than ever. But you can make something for a lot less than even 10 years ago when you needed the apparatus, you needed all of the accoutrements of a traditional film. Well, you've seen Tangerine and Storm Baker made on my phone. So yes, it's possible.

20:12Lighting, sound mix, they're still extremely expensive and sophisticated. But to get the key point, it depends what program you're doing. It depends if you're in a conservatory or if you're in a film school that's giving you general education. It depends how well you're going to use it when you get there and seize opportunities. And these are things students should look at. I'm not defending every film school in America or every film school graduate. And I'm not saying everybody has to do it. If you're the young Barry Diller with an incredibly entrepreneurial, creative business mind, you're probably not going to do well in a film school.

20:49But most people benefit hugely. Okay. And what about this argument that if you don't get into the top two or three schools, it's not worth it because those are the ones that really have a pipeline to the industry. Those are where the top producers go to look. that's where if you are Ryan Coogler and you go to USC and you are obviously talented that's where you're going to meet the collaborators that are going to be on your level Coogler works with a lot of his USC film school colleagues like his guy that does his scores and his production designer, people like that what about that argument? Well, that one I kind of agree with because the truth is there are a handful maybe a few more of great film schools You'd put yours in that category.

21:37I don't want to go through the rankings. These rankings are silly. I know we used to do them at Hollywood Reporter, but that's kind of why I think they're silly because we would just go off of the data that they put out on their graduation rates and their employment rates and things like that. I know that matters. But those are helpful for students applying. But where's the line? Some might say, if you don't get into USC, don't do it. Obviously, you would disagree with that. I'm glad you put the words into my mouth because I'm not going to say anything about our competitors. It depends. If you go into documentary, Stanford is a brilliant school for documentary.

22:12They only take, I don't know, six, seven, eight, nine students a year. It's not listed in those top film schools. So animation schools, that's a whole other program. Yeah. Is CalArts still considered the best for that? It's one of the best. And it's a great animation school. So it's not just those very top few, but there is a new la axis for the film and media industry and it certainly is going to help you if you're in a school that's on that axis because that's where you get to meet people and you know we have people from the industry coming in not just every day multiple times every day i know you've really boosted that that was one of your big initiatives when you took that job i remember and you now bring in like top talents all the time yesterday the k-pop demon hunter directors Monday.

23:02I'm sure that's your number one copy of the year. You know my taste, yes. But it is a brilliant animation. So we have Paul Thomas Anderson on Monday. That is probably on your list. That is. And Ariana Grande this Friday, which is going to be insane. But actually, it's the people you meet who are the heads of marketing and the people who are the entertainment lawyers and managers who are really going to give you much more guidance. This is fun in a career and help you make contacts and then going back to what you're saying yes you form your tribe you know barry jenkins was at florida state he's still working with that group of students and if you're coming out and you want to get something off the ground low budget the hardest thing is to know who's good to form that team you and i if we suddenly launched another trade publication we would know who to pluck because we've been in that world if you're a student and you're coming out you don't.

23:57And I think that's an incredibly important part of a great film school. That you're going to meet people who are going to be the leaders of the business in years to come. But if you're not good, then it's a waste of time. That's the blurb. You know, Terry Press, head of marketing for Steven Spielberg, teacher class, she knows film history inside out. And we filter out. The great film schools are filtering out a lot of people. Before the Terry press decides who to hire. So this is part of that. Again, it's not right for everybody. And if someone comes to me and says, look, I'm thinking putting$106 ,000 down, I would really say to them, let's think about what this is going to get you.

24:43Yeah, you can make your film for that amount of money. You can, but again, I will tell you. It's going to be garbage is what you're saying. Let's be blunt. And I've seen our students improve. We had We have quite a few Chinese students. So one of them grow. His thesis film, which he just made, was so good. We had a group of executives coming from Alibaba because they were looking for the next generation of Chinese talent. And they said, we want to hire this guy. But he learned that in two years. Would he necessarily have done this? Yes, he's enormously talented. But it would have been much harder.

25:19Craig, are you convinced? Are you convinced? Should you have gone to graduate film school? I really think it just depends on what your goals are, how financially able you are to spend that kind of money. I think for certain cases, I think a lot of the technical stuff that Steven was talking about, sound mixing, cinematography, animation, I think all that is really important. At least until they're all replaced with AI. True. Well, they need to know AI. Sure. I think there's a separate class of kind of the writer, director, more creative type that is kind of, you know, like Steven said, there are the more entrepreneurial-minded people that it will kind of work.

25:53no matter what. And I do believe that. But what I appreciated out of my undergraduate experience is that it just allowed me to meet people and collaborators, learn how to work with people, and find the things I am interested in. And I do think college is great for that. But Matt, I do want to come down to this question of money. I'm horrified by how much it costs. And every day I ask myself, ethically, morally, is it okay for me to be encouraging people to spend this kind of money? I mean, to be frank, I considered going to grad school and I didn't because of how expensive it was. And I said, I don't need it.

26:24I can figure it out without it. And I was lucky. I won scholarship. But I sat down with a student last week and I said, why do you want to do this? This is a massive amount of money. Is it really going to benefit you? So I think that's a perfectly fair question. And the truth is, as in any profession, there are 10, maybe 20 % who happen to be really good and will seize opportunities, will use it. And then the issue is, what about the rest and where did they go? Well, I never directed films, but it helped me enormously know enough to create a career. So I think different types of students can benefit from different things.