Part 2: Sony Film CEO on Marvel’s Decline and Hollywood’s Originality Crisis

0:05Matt Belloni:This episode of The Town is presented by 20th Century Studios' Avatar Fire and Ash. Don't miss the movie Critics Are Raving is epic and exciting and gorgeous and heartbreaking and stands as one of the greatest films ever made. It's got incredible visuals, jaw-dropping action, and a cinematic achievement. Avatar Fire and Ash now playing in theaters and now nominated for the Academy Awards for Best Visual Effects and Best Costume Design. It is Tuesday, February 24th. Today's part two of Tom Rothman, head of the Sony Movie Studio. He reported it live at AFI with me and Lucas Shaw and Tom's very cool Columbia Pictures bomber jacket that is definitely not for sale, he told me.

0:46Matt Belloni:If you haven't heard part one, go do that first. Today is the future of the Spider-Man franchise, Marvel's recent struggles if movie stars should make movies for streamers, and the biggest crisis facing the movie industry right now. He's definitely got opinions. From The Ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellany, and this is The Town.

1:07Matt Belloni:Where are we in the Spider-Man franchise? Not at the animated Spider-Verse. Is the larger Spider-Verse dead? Are you going to go back to those at some point? Yes. You will? Yes. But it'll be a fresh reboot? Yes. New people? Okay. Yes. And how is the partnership with Marvel going? It's great. Because that was a big moment. It was sort of a tail between the legs moment to have to go to Disney and say, listen, we kind of ran this into the ground. We need you to bring this back. You know, speaking of that, putting that question that way, we have a character. It's called Mr. Negativity. You should come and audition.

1:44Matt Belloni:Studios don't typically say, here's our number one franchise. Let's bring in another studio to partner on it. I can't take much credit for it. It was at the very beginning of my tenure and the tail end of Amy's credit tenure. But I think it was an extremely smart and mature decision by Michael Linton and Amy Pascal, who were excellent, excellent executives, first rate. But the part that I quarrel with, run into the ground. No, it's an$800 million movie. That's some ground. I think, again, this was a question of opportunity because, yes, first of all, Marvel's great. Kevin Feige's a genius, and I can talk about that in a second.

2:24But it wasn't just bringing Marvel in to produce for us. It was actually we were able to introduce the new Spider-Man with Robert Downey Jr. and Iron Man.

2:37Matt Belloni:Connected to the narrative. Connected to the narrative. So it had big upside for us, and it's been one of the great deals for both companies ever. a true win-win deal to the point where the third one just did and pisses me off that I have to say this, that it did a billion nine. You'd say billion nine, what's the matter with two? Well, it didn't get into China. So otherwise, but in my mind, it's over two because I know what we would have done in China. They just small thing. They said, no problem. Just cut out the Statue of Liberty, which is where the climax of the movie is. That was the request.

3:12And I said, yeah, well,

3:13Matt Belloni:It's like the last 20 minutes of the movie. Yeah, there was that. And also, I really didn't look forward to sitting in the air in front of Congress, telling them why I cut the Statue of Liberty out at the request of the Chinese Communist Party. So it's been a really, really, it's been a great partnership. And I have to say, it's because they've been great partners. I'm going to make a prediction that there's no Statue of Liberty in the new Spider-Man. Let me think about that. Actually, coincidentally, that's true. Total coincidence. Total coincidence. We're very privileged that Amy has been a producer on the Spider-Man movies, and she's probably the best, if not one of the best, producers in the business ever.

4:08ever a woman I've known all my 30 plus years in Hollywood. But Kevin, I like to tell this story because the first Marvel movie, the first big successful modern Marvel movie, not the cheap German ones, was not Spider-Man. It was X-Men. X-Men came before Spider-Man and we made X-Men at Fox. And X-Men was the real initial breakthrough in the Marvel universe because it was the first time that the characters were taken seriously. And it was the first time that the emotionality of those characters were honored.

4:42Matt Belloni:We won't talk about the director of that movie. No, we won't. Keep going. And there was this skinny little junior assistant, assistant, assistant for Lauren Donner, who was like sitting in the back of the room and during the story meetings. And every once in a while, he'd be like, what about, and I'd go, that's a good idea. What about this kid? That's a good idea. That little person was Kevin Feige. And what I always say to him is, if I'd known you were only such a fucking big shot, I would have been so much nicer to you. But he's gifted. I'm curious because he had a generational run. How do you diagnose the recent challenges or slight decline and how a lot of those movies have done?

5:31I just think he would say the same thing. I would say it this way, that when we always have to balance this, we balance this in answer to your question about Spider-Man. Scarcity has value. You've got to make the audience miss you. It's the old thing. I always had trouble getting girls to go out with me twice until, fortunately, my wife took pity on me. But it's like absence makes the heart grow fonder. but it's an interesting dynamic

5:57Matt Belloni:as you mentioned how much of a benefit it was to Sony to introduce Spider-Man with Downey I feel like the opposite they went too far is true now where they need Spider-Man to introduce Avengers and that storyline will hopefully for them carry over I think look I'll just tell you this there are two people about whom I would say this and maybe more if I think about it but these are two that come to the top of my mind never bet against Jim Cameron and never bet against Kevin Feige. Knows what he's doing. Certainly, they've engaged. You can see it. And of course, correction, less television. I think it was really the television and the elaborateness of that interconnection that made you have to be so inside or else you felt excluded.

6:47And that was a mandate that he was given by a prior administration at Disney. And he's a good corporate soldier. so he did what he was asked to do. But I think he knows very well that now, to a degree, less will be more and it'll be very more. Have no worries for Avengers, guys. It's going to be... Don't you have some kind of game where you... We do. I have it. I have the movie in the draft. Bye. It was my number one. Bye. It was your number two. I have Spider-Man. He has Avengers. Who's going to do better? I love all my children.

7:21Matt Belloni:Well, one of them actually not your children, but... Spider-Man. You think so? So I had you on a round table in 2019 of all studio executives. It was a very good one. It's actually fascinating to look back on it today. I asked the question, is there any movie star that is important as strong IP? And you said, yes, I think there are lots of movie stars. It's one of the great myths propagated out there that movie stars don't matter. Seven years later, is that still true? And is it less true? Okay. No, it's more true. There are less of them. Seven years later, there are fewer of them, thus making the ones that there are even more valuable.

8:05Okay. Care to list them? Sure. Why not? I'm here under subpoena, right? So, listen, I had a lot of good summer jobs I can go back to. I was a surveyor. I was a lawn boy. I can do all those things. I'm going to regret asking this,

8:20Matt Belloni:but is Sidney Sweeney one of them? I think in the right thing. So let's talk about movie stars. And it has all, it's always been this way. When Bill Murray did, goes with the biggest comedic star in the world and then did The Razor's Edge, nobody gave a fuck. Okay? So it has to be stars in the right material. Sidney in the right material? Absolutely. Look at anyone but you and now Housemaid. Housemaid, terrific hit. That's a big hit movie. And here's the significant thing about Housemaid that people don't probably pay as much attention to and the same with anyone but you. It's a global hit. That movie's huge internationally.

8:55So I would say yes. And it's always this way. Movie stars in the right thing. Not as many as we would like, but there are clearly emerging young movie stars. Timothee Chalamet, Tom Holland, Zendaya. There are Sydney, emerging young movie stars. And then there are the established, unquestionable stars who continue. And this is the key about continuing to be a movie star. You have to continue to reward your audience and continue to let your audience trust the choices you make. People don't quite understand that. It's not just what they are. It's that if I'm going to the movies and I'm paying my money and I know Denzel Washington makes good choices, right?

9:40I know Leonardo DiCaprio. He makes good choices. If it's good enough for Leo to do it, it's probably going to be pretty good, right? Leonardo DiCaprio, Brad Pitt. These people don't make three, four, five movies a year. You know, it's their scarcity and value. Tom Hanks, the same thing. There's a quality in premature. And then, come on, who doesn't want to see Brad Pitt drive a car really fast? I do. But Brad Pitt's 60 years old. Yeah. but Clint Eastwood was a star until he was, you know, well into, well, well into his late seventies. But you raise a point and that's why I said fewer because going to the conversation we had before, categorically streaming does not make movie stars.

10:24That just isn't the case. Streaming doesn't make movie stars. Do you think it hurts those movie stars we were talking about if they do a streaming movie? A, no, many. Yes. Uh, I had a meeting in my office with a very, uh, significant movie star who will go unmentioned who referred to his career in that and when he would do a streaming movie or not as a tax on the brain. T-A-X. And I think that's true.

10:48Matt Belloni:It was Mark Wahlberg, wasn't it? No, it was not. Kevin Hart, I'm not going to guess. I actually agree with you. I think you can do it. Like Leo did a streaming movie. Don't look up. Still on their top 10 list. Right. But he did one. Correct. You see a recurring theme here. I think scarcity, value, these are recurring themes, particularly with respect to movies. You want to go out, you want to go and be over that bar, it should be special. It shouldn't be every day. This, on streaming service, this is every day. So I think you can do it sparely. Protein is now at Starbucks, and it's never tasted so good.

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11:40K-Pop Demon Hunter's Saja Boys Breakfast Meal and Huntrix Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja Boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day. It is an honor to share. No, it's our honor. It is a larger honor. No, really. Stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side. I participate in McDonald's while supplies last. You talked earlier about the need for collective action on the part of the studios. Do you feel that your peers at the other studios share your belief, or do you find yourself having to spend a bunch of time trying to convince them to think the way that you do?

12:25Matt Belloni:Because you're in a different business. You don't have a streaming service. Universal, well, you were talking about 17 Days. They do the 17-day P-Vod movies, right? Or Warner Brothers, not this current regime, but the previous regime put a lot of movies direct to streaming and may now be owned by a streaming service. We'll find out. Disney has experimented more with Windows. Let me correct just that last thing, but answer it, which is to say that I can't do any of that because they're antitrust laws. So, no, I can't do that because there's a possibility that that wouldn't be allowed. You have a trade organization.

13:01Yes, and the trade organization has to represent everybody. Including Netflix and Amazon. Or in the trade organization, yes. But I'm perfectly free to answer your questions. What I think is that it's a learning process, okay? I was given some of your interrogations to listen to before I came on because my comms people were very concerned about me and my survival on this. So they gave me a few. And I heard on something on one of them, sorry, I wasn't paying strictest attention, that it was a settled question that theatrical movies do better on streaming. And I think it is a settled question. And the statistics show that.

13:45And I think this is what's happened. I think it's been a learning process. Coming out of COVID, I can just say for ourselves, we actually did some movies on 17 days. I actually didn't realize. I had to learn because there's a misleading statistic, which is if you look at the box office on the weekend, which we did, look at on the weekend following the 17 days, the drop is no greater than what it is not for the 17 days. So for a number of times we thought, oh, well, maybe they're different consumers. Until we realized we look at the wrong thing. You're not losing them in that weekend. You're losing them in the opening weekend.

14:27That's what's happening. And when you compare like movie to like movie, which you have very sophisticated models that can do this, it's the openings that are diminished because of Casablanca.

14:41Matt Belloni:so so we stopped so the customer can tell on opening weekend whether this is coming you're creating a habit you're creating yeah but but they can tell the difference between a studio that does it in a studio that doesn't absolutely not that's why it hurts it's an overall that's why it hurts all of us so let me just i got to go back to the last thing you said actually disney has the longest windows in the business oh i just said they experimented which they did do they did during the pixar thing and yeah mr igor realized he's a very smart man and realized When you get under the hood, it's why I'm very confident, ultimately, that with what Netflix has said, should they end up owning Warner Brothers about maintaining proper windows, not just 45 days.

15:22It's why I believe what they're saying at Netflix. Remember, it's not just 45 days. It's 45 days to transactional. It's 100 days to free.

15:34Matt Belloni:And you believe Ted Sarandos when he says that that will be the model for the Warner's movies. I do because they're very smart at Netflix. And when you get under the hood, they're going to pay, I don't know, what are they paying? $72 billion,$83 plus debt. You're going to pay$72 billion for it. You want the company to work. And they're smart. And when they get under the hood, they're going to learn the same things we learn, which is the value chain in motion pictures is from successive windows. So what I was going to say, Disney now has the longest, most firmest windows in the business, right?

16:13And even where it's their own service, there are 100 days to Disney+. Who has the only billion-dollar movies this year? Disney. Disney. I don't think it's a coincidence. So what I think is happening, it's an evolution. We went through a once in a generation crisis with this COVID shit. And people are learning. We're learning. And we've learned that collectively. Listen, gang, when you go out and you make movies, there are only two reasons people go to the movies. One is experiential. I want to see it on the big screen. I want to see what Jim Cameron's done. Right. I want to take my kids out of the house because they're driving me crazy.

16:56I want to kiss a girl or a boy, right? I want to have an experience. When we do it well, I want to laugh with other people. I want to have an experience. The second reason is story-based. It's a story-based reason. I want to see that story. I want to see that star. I want to experience that emotion. If you take away the window, you take away the story-based reason to see it, leaving only the experiential reason. So what does that do? What's the crisis in movies now? It's not the amount of movies. It's not the big grossing movies. Spider-Man's going to do great. It's the middle ground. It's originality.

17:34The crisis is originality. The crisis is where is the next franchise coming from? Because original movies don't have a built-in fan base. And we're getting to a place that without cultural urgency, you've got to have cultural urgency to get over the bar. Why? Why is Timothee Chalamet such a movie star? Well, because A, he's great. He's a great actor. My daughter's a theater producer. Put him in his first play. There you go, Elizabeth. Give you a plug. He's a great actor. He's never been anything less than great. And he's a fantastic cultural salesman. He's a guy who understands, creates urgency, cultural urgency.

18:14But it doesn't seem like your fellow studios share your passion for originality. Because my fellow studios and me, we get the shit beat out of ourselves all the time when you strive for originality. But you got to keep trying. And we do try. But the better the windows.

18:28Matt Belloni:I read today you greenlit a Charlie's Angels movie. No. Or you're developing. Deep development. And there's, talk about originality. But if you look at the slate, and no shame, but it's pre-branded stuff. You'll do a Garfield movie. Your biggest movies of the year will probably be, what, Spider-Man, Jumanji. Yep. Because I have shareholders, and I have fiduciary obligations, and I have 6 ,000 employees as bonus. You're basically the guy in the studio. You want to do certain movies and you want to also keep your job. No, no. I want to be clear about that because I was widely misquoted on that. Oh, you were?

19:06Widely. So I get a chance to correct the record now because they took half of my quote from that. Please. I said very clearly on every episode of the studio, so please use this first part of the quote there is a brilliantly blinding truth in every episode and there is and then I said but the rest of it is horseshit and what I should have said was the rest of it is silly because they only use the cuss word look it's I think it's a brilliant show and I think the satire is actually genes but some of the most devoted, film-loving, smart people I've known in 35 years in Hollywood are studio executives.

19:56And not all of them, but most of them are in it for the same reason I am. It might not have been Lawrence of Arabia, but I could have done lots of things. I had multiple careers before I came here, but I loved movies. I dreamed someday. And this part of the studio is true. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? I sit in Louis B. Mayer's office. Are you kidding me? Every day I drive onto the lot and the lot was MGM. And today I visited Jumanji on the same stage, the same stage that they sought the Wizard of Oz. Are you kidding me? How lucky can one person be? So, and I think a lot of the people are like me.

20:47My father claimed that he hated this job his whole life. I don't know if he really did, but he said he was miserable. He was a lawyer and he pretended to be miserable. And he had four children and he would look at us at the breakfast table every morning. He would say to his kids, don't do this. Don't work at something you don't love. And as I look out here at students at the AFI, I'm a person whose vocation and avocation are the same. And hence, it's the old cliche. Yes, I have work days in my life, believe me, but it's great. So striving still for originality, trying to do it. And often, by the way, failing.

21:26Made a Darren Aronofsky original movie last year. I loved the movie, Caught Stealing. I loved Darren. I thought it was great. I watched it on Netflix. Yep, because it wasn't over the bar. It wasn't culturally urgent enough. It's a really good movie. It tested well. People loved it. So what do we have to do? We have to set high standards for ourselves, but collectively, collectively, to preserve originality, we need to reestablish robust windows.

21:53Matt Belloni:I do want to ask whether you fear at all that this Warner's sale, if they do go to Netflix, doesn't that make Netflix less inclined to do a big deal with a studio like Sony? Well, luckily, the answer to that, we have facts. They have done a very big long-term deal with us. But I'm talking the next deal. Well, I'll be dead. It's only seven years. You won't be dead. Maybe professionally, but you will not be dead. They've been saying that about me for a long time, Matt. They've been trying to kill me off professionally for a long time, and nobody's succeeded yet. But you know what I'm saying? If Netflix is hoovering up all of the libraries.

22:36I think it's proof positive. Proof positive. I wondered about that.