Part 2: What Ari Emanuel Talks About With Trump and the Rock

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1:28Because the asks aren't getting smaller, the budgets aren't getting bigger, and the timelines, oh yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Unlock a better way to make with Adobe Firefly. It is Friday, October 10th. And yesterday we had part one of Ari Emanuel and Mark Shapiro, who are partnering on a new events company and also got into tons of topics. Everything from sports rights to the future of the agency business to what they talk about, what Ari talks about with Donald Trump. So we decided to split it into two episodes. Part two is today.

2:10Yes, the Trump stuff plus the lightning round where I fire some fast questions at Ari and he tells me to go screw myself. He actually didn't. I think he controlled himself a little bit on this episode, but it's very fun. No call sheet today. It's part two of Ari Emanuel and Mark Shapiro. From The Ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellany, and this is The Town.

2:35Where's the ceiling on sports rights? Forever increasing? Are we headed for a top? Is MLB going to have to take a haircut? Like, where are we in that? Yes, baseball is taking a cut, right? And then the regional model in terms of the rights that they sell to ESPN, which is in short order, that will camouflage some of it. But it's the middle that's going to get cut out. I'm not saying baseball is the middle. It's obviously a premier sport, a premium sport as well. But the middle is going to get cut out because the NFL is going to open their deal, if not sooner than 29, and they're going to get big increases.

3:07And the NBA's got their$76 billion deal. But there's got to be a ceiling. There's got to be a ceiling on these rights. said that all along and team valuations how about that too can i say something we'll never see any

3:18Mark Shapiro:higher re go ahead okay so when we started the agency on my birthday march 29th 1995 everybody said packaging's over and dramas are over right and eventually they kept on saying when is it going to stop there's going to be less and less shows and it went from 39 shows to 139 shows to where we are now. They've always said the following, that it's got to stop at some point. Now, you would assume that's the right answer. However, I would say to you, for the 30 plus years I've been in the business, and we're just now in a lull as people kind of get rid of old media and transfer to new media, that they're figuring out their economics for the street.

4:02Mark Shapiro:But the value of rights, whether that be movie rights, television rights, et cetera, has changed, but it has always gone up. Now, the costs will come down now, I think, on the cost side. But the value of those rights are going up because people need great product for their platforms to drive subs. They need live product, too. Right, but how can traditional TV survive? I just said, I just said, I said as those things are changing, I said this, you're not listening. You don't listen to me. You don't give a shit about me. I am listening, But I think that is a nuanced subject because we are in a transition point right now.

4:43And if the NFL just goes with the highest bidder and cuts out traditional TV networks, they sacrifice audience and they change fundamentally the way sports are consumed.

4:56Mark Shapiro:Well, you're going to have a really good test right now. Adam, I think, made financially, Adam Silver, an incredible deal. The NBA commissioner. Yeah. Yes. so we were having dinner with adam and roger and mark and myself and talking about our deals and etc as as one does and he decided adam decided to break it up the way he broke it up so am i going to go to nbc am i go to espn am i going am i going to amazon right mark and i decided the best thing to do is end up at one place for ufc and and for wwe well no wwe is in multiple places yeah so So, but that has been traditionally because there's different programming.

5:35Mark Shapiro:We could do that, right? So we're going to see where the ratings go for the NBA. And you're going to have a pretty good sense. Hey, have they hurt their assets or have they not? Okay. So if you were repping the NFL, which currently gets$11 billion a year in rights fees, are you looking for double when you open up those deals? I mean, there is nothing that powers viewership like the NFL. It is the unicorn and it continues to separate itself. Can you call Roger that Mark and I can kind of represent? I'm sure you'd love that. But the thing is, honestly, they don't need you. They've got the goods.

6:12Mark Shapiro:There's nobody better in the business than Roger. But the truth is, it's not so much. Yes, they're going to max the marketplace on the rights fees, but they're never going to compromise their brand. That's what Ari's talking about. Okay. the NBA split it up to maximize dollars, but in Adam's mind, he put the right puzzle together to also expand his reach across linear and streaming fields. That's what he believes. And he got to send a middle finger to David Zasloff, who told him he didn't need the NBA. And he got Rodgers' attention. If I could get that much money for the NBA, what could the NFL get?

6:43Right. And I just look at what the NFL is about to get, and I think that that will necessarily impact the rest of the entertainment ecosystem, because so much money from these companies will be going to the NFL that like, how is CBS or NBC or ESPN? Like, how are they going to continue the investment in the kinds of shows and movies that your other clients care about? Do you remember this guy,

7:10Mark Shapiro:Art Stolnitz from Warner's brother? She was the head of business affairs. No. And I was, when I was baby age and I was making a deal with him and Bill Haber gave me this deal to make with him for one of his clients. And I said in the middle of negotiation, I was like four days old as an agent. And I said, that's not fair. And he told me, drive over to see me. I drive over. He goes, young man, fair is where we end up. They're only going to pay what is fair to them and is fair to the NFL. People are going to make rational decisions. Even if it's economically, you're going to look at it and say, you don't understand it.

7:43Mark Shapiro:They will make rational decisions for their platforms. They will end up at a fair place for both sides. but to your point, Matt, some will fall off. There's no question. Some of these platforms that have historically been in the business, they will be pushed out. Yeah, necessarily. All right, Ari, you're very close to David Ellison. What's the game plan there? Just lay it out for us. I think he's doing an incredible job. I think the CTO... No, no, no, that is not the question. Hold on, let me answer the question. I get to answer it the way I want to, not the way you want me to answer. No, you don't.

8:13You have to answer the question. This is not an earnings call.

8:18Mark Shapiro:I'm going to answer it my way, so I don't care. I think what he's done with the CTO, incredible from Facebook. He brought in, yeah, he brought in a tech guy from Facebook. Okay, great, fine. I think the Barry deal, incredible. Oh, you like Barry Weiss. Oh, right, she's represented by WME. I don't think she is, is she? According to IMDB, she is. Oh, okay. In fact, she came over from CAA, you stole her. Oh, I didn't do it, but I really like her. Okay, so you think that's a positive? The fact of the matter is she has the right statement and the right objective. It's not a surprise you would like her.

8:50Her politics appeal to super rich guys.

8:53Mark Shapiro:Here's what I like about her. We have to agree on what is truly fact. The only way we can actually report the news. It can't be one fact over here and one fact over here. There's going to be one fact. And she is trying to get to that conversation. Okay. And then I think the way he's organized the business as it relates to direct-to-consumer movies, television, how many movies they have to make, et cetera, et cetera, he's doing a very good job. And he's signed proper people. He is changing the landscape of that place. And will he go after and get Warners or whatever? I think it would be great for the business if we had a bigger player.

9:37You do? You think it's great for the business for two studios to merge?

9:41Mark Shapiro:Well, you don't know if they're going to keep Warner Brothers and keep both labels. You don't know? They might. But, you know, Fox was still kept by Disney. And look where they are now. What does that mean? Meaning Disney ingested Fox. And what does that mean? It means that they are not making as many Fox movies as they once did. And that necessarily means a smaller piece of the pie for the talent that used to make those movies. Okay, as I said to you, we're at a period of time after you get through this transition. I think you'll see a difference in the conversation, especially as costs come down.

10:16Mark Shapiro:But that's okay. Only time is going to tell if I'm right or you're right. Sure. Well, and Disney's not making as many movies as Disney was making either. Well, I wonder about the tech element. Do you think that the Ellisons can deliver on this promise to merge content expertise with tech expertise? If anybody can do it, David Ellison can do it. You think so? He has a very good sense of tech. His father will help him. And he loves the movie and television business. Actually loves it. And money matters. Matt, and of course we think that, otherwise we wouldn't have done the deal. That was part of the solution.

10:51That was part of the dream. You mean the UFC deal? Yes, correct.

10:56Mark Shapiro:And they have come at us on multiple different fronts, not only on the UFC, but other things, in sports and in content. And they have been incredible. Yeah, I mean, that UFC deal makes the most sense. You got a gigantic check, and you're going to have UFC fights on CBS. You see this guy walking around and pacing and jumping around on the camera? That was like when we were in this negotiation. I mean, he insisted on that, and we kind of went full-blown on that conversation. And that's all kind of designed by Shapiro. When you got this major asset and you know that the entire value of this publicly traded company, TKO, is dependent on getting a massive new deal for UFC, how do you run an auction?

11:41Mark Shapiro:We met with everybody. We had presentations back and forth over months, months, months, months. People then came forward and we started multiple conversations. How close were you with Netflix? Very. Very. Yeah. What was the differentiator? They didn't want the volume at the end of the day. They wanted just the premium. So in that case, it was the numbered events, the pay-per-view dates every month. And then we would have had to do what the NBA did and break up the package. And Mark and I were discussing that. Actually, I like the word discussing as opposed to what really happened, fighting about that the whole time.

12:17No, you got the fight nights are 30 dates, remember. The numbered events are 13. So that 30, if you could take it to one place, perfect. If you have to split it up, you have to split it up. fortunately we had a lot of folks interested in some of that 30 matt we at first were hoping paramount would take the 30 and we would just do the the premium with netflix until cbs he's guy ultimately said forget it we want the whole thing and when you don't go to netflix do you get a nasty text from bella are you no i mean they were disappointed they were disappointed and let me

12:51Mark Shapiro:just let's be very clear let's just be very clear bella has been and ted have been incredible to mark and i and the and the agency and tko with boxing they are incredible executives but at the end of the day david and and jerry cardinal and jeff and and larry said you know he said it to you studio streaming and live sports they want to be in that space and so then they came to us and said here's what we want okay great but matthew you should know we were out of that netflix deal before we got really serious with these guys. So Larry's involved in decisions like that. Larry Ellison. Yeah.

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14:09All new Sundays at 9, exclusively on AMC and AMC+. I am the vampire Lestat. I'm a rock star now. I'm a little killer. I'm a million. From Anne Rice's Immortal Universe comes what Vulture calls the most momentous event in fictional rock history. Thousands of fans love you. I want millions. It's my era. Anne Rice's The Vampire List. All new Sundays at 9, exclusively on AMC and AMC+. Stream now. What's your next big negotiation? Can we go to the lightning round? We're going to the lightning round. This is way too long. Last question, what's your next big negotiation? My last big negotiation? What do you mean?

14:49No, not last. What's your next big negotiation? Who's in the market right now that you expect big things from?

14:56Mark Shapiro:Well, we have our super boxing matches. For UFC? No, no, boxing, he said. No, for boxing. Oh, the Zufa boxing. Right, right, right. I thought you just did a deal. Didn't CBS take those? We did. They took them domestically, and we're now in the market selling them globally. Okay. All right. Yeah. That's less sexy. I don't know about, if you don't want the money, I'll take it. No, I know you do. Is that what motivates you, money, still? You've made hundreds of millions of dollars. I still love what I do every day. I love it. I get up in the morning every day. Yeah. I love it, yeah. I love representing people.

15:31Mark Shapiro:I love talking about projects they're doing next. I love things Mark and I talk about. I respect it. And I love what are now, how we're trying to build the events business. and one of the things that people don't realize each one has ripple effects on the other and gives different understanding of the marketplace and the global environment of entertainment and content they play off each other constantly okay that's good and and are you are going to live forever are you still eating the worms the list of shit i'm doing has gotten so long it's crazy that's a whole different podcast i know i know you got to go in a wellness pod for that all right let's do the lightning round is every week ferrari there's a fast every single week oh don't do that that's unhealthy don't do the fasting i i say that like worms are fine but whatever all right lightning round and this is we it's a yes no mark i can get in trouble here no no it's a straight answer already well i'm already ready to give you notes afterwards give me your give me your answer and then we will move on okay it's only if you don't answer that i may have a follow-up so okay the biggest star in the world right now is blank depending on the movie probably leo of certain movies and probably Robert Downey Jr.

16:40Mark Shapiro:In Marvel. Those are Brad Pitt, Dwayne Johnson. The biggest star in Screaming is Mark Wahlberg. Oh, interesting. On the movie side. Not even close. Just go look at all of his movies. What's Wahlberg's quote? No, no. This is lightning round. Move the fuck on. And don't forget Taylor Swift for the biggest star on the planet. And that may even be the big scream. Her last two movies are Amsterdam and Cats, so I don't think we can call her a movie star yet. The numbers say differently. Okay. The thing nobody in Hollywood is talking about, but they should be, is blank. I pass. Because you won't let me go where I want to go.

17:19Mark Shapiro:Go? The floor is yours. No, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. Okay, now I'm going to get emails. What would Ari want to say? Just do it briefly. No, I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. Because I'm trying to be more mature. No, no, no. there's certain people in their 60s that shouldn't be running certain things oh you're talking about the CAA guys you think the CAA guys alright I got a CAA question I'll just go right to that CAA's Brian Lord stands for blank duplicity

17:53you know he did call you he called you another ethical person that's fucked up it is so beneath me to talk about that dude

18:01Mark Shapiro:Oh, it is? You're bigger than him now. Like by only 100 miles. Matt, this is a lightning round. All right, I know. I'm getting off topic. All right. Elon, Dwayne Johnson, and Dana White are all on your call sheet. All things being equal, Ari, who do you call back first? Dana White. Why? He's my partner at TKO and one of the biggest assets in that business. Okay. But Elon could launch a rocket at your house. But depending on the circumstances, because I might need to talk to Dwayne about something that Dana wants. Well, and Dwayne's on our board and he controls Ari's comp. So he might have to call him back.

18:42That's right. Okay. Who in Hollywood is sneaky rich? Like we wouldn't realize how much money they've made in this business.

18:52Mark Shapiro:on the non actor side and actress side. I actually don't know that because you always think people may have more money than they have. Sure. This is a question you can answer, though. Who generates the most money for William Morris Endeavor? Is it Dick Wolf? I've actually heard that it's Jim Brooks, Simpsons money, or Seth MacFarlane, Family Guy money. We can't say that either. We're a privately held company. We've got a lot of different investors and we treat all of our clients equally, meaning our ass is all for them. Period. Thank God Shapiro's in my life. You were about to answer. God damn it.

19:29Mark Shapiro:I was about to answer. So good. Thank you very much, Matt. It's been a great question. No, no, no. We're not done. There's a couple more. Do you think Bob Iger regrets having come back to Disney? I have no idea. I don't really think about it. Okay. So that's a Don Draper answer. I don't think about you at all. I got enough problems on my own. We all have a lot of problems. He's trying to operate through. I think he's put it back on the right footing, but I think he entered a very tough environment, which I think he realized. But if there's anybody that can operate through it, he can. And by the way, if he didn't want to be, I have to chime in on this because he's been such a big partner of ours for a long, long time.