The Life of a ‘White Lotus’ Producer, and the ‘Jury Duty’ Sequel Revealed

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1:16Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details. It is Thursday, January 29th. The life of a working producer these days often means picking up your entire life and living for months in London or Atlanta or Montreal. Especially this time of year, the holidays are over, film and TV productions have started back up. At Sundance and the Golden Globes parties these past few weeks, it seemed like every producer I talked to was about to leave town for some project. One of those was Dave Burnett, who was prepping to make the fourth season of The White Lotus at a luxury hotel in the south of France.

1:50I know, cue the violins there. But it's definitely not a vacation for Burnett. He's kind of a throwback producer in some ways. He came up in the traditional way in Hollywood, to the extent that still exists, toiling as an assistant and then working with Mike White, the filmmaker whose rise to A-level creator has allowed Bernard to produce both White's projects and other stuff, everything from the Uncharted movie to Superstore on NBC. And White Lotus, of course, is an interesting show to make. The last season took about eight months in Thailand, despite taking place mostly in one location. Bernard also executive produces another of these stranger shows to make right now, Jury Duty, which became a breakout a couple of years ago on Amazon for its premise, a sitcom set during a jury trial where everyone's an actor except one guy who thinks it's real.

2:36Jury Duty is back with a new and totally different season, this time at a company retreat. I've seen it. It's pretty hilarious. Bernard's going to break some news about that show, but mostly today I wanted him on to discuss the life of a working producer, How to pull off some of the more difficult Hollywood projects and live to have a sane life or relatively sane. From The Ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellany and this is The Town.

3:02Okay, we are here with David Bernad, producer, White Lotus, jury duty, many, many others. Welcome, Dave. How are you? Great. Thanks for having me. I was telling you, there's a lot of excitement around me. I know. Do not be nervous. I'm not nervous. Other people are nervous. I'm excited. We've only had one person who did not enjoy their experience on the town. I will not say who it was, but it was someone who wrote a book and I asked him about the contents of the book and he was offended that I asked about things that he wrote about in his own book. No, I listen. I'm just I like to I like to gossip.

3:39I like to just talk shit. I'm trying to be restrained in this interview. No, no, no. We do not allow restraint. This is not the venue for restraint. All right. So I want to get into kind of the life of a successful producer. And we'll talk about White Lotus. We'll talk about the new jury duty. You've got some news on that front. But just like, I think our listeners are curious how a successful producer like sets up his or her business. Like give us the lay of the land of like, you know, how you got to be in this position and also like where your deals are and kind of what you prioritize. what like give us the snapshot of your business yeah yeah producing it's funny everyone you know constantly almost weekly someone asks me to talk to you know a young kid in college or coming out of college who wants to be in the business and i tell them all the same thing which is unless this is absolutely the only thing on earth you can do go do anything else it has to be your 100 percent commitment and passion and that's kind of it's funny i say that to people who want to be lawyers when they asked me about going to law school.

4:41It's true. It's true. So as a young kid, I wanted to produce. That's all I wanted to do. It was my absolute passion on earth. I was lucky to meet Nathan Kahane, who was a first mentor of mine. And he basically told me, he said, go be in a mailroom. He kind of told me about working for Bill Block. And I was like, that sounds like... Producer, ran Miramax. Yeah, exactly what I wanted to do. So I, through a long winding story, ended up at UTA and very lucky to meet David Kramer, who is, I would say, my second mentor. He now runs UTA. Yeah, and he was incredible. He really kind of, he taught me about the business and also taught me about really the hard work.

5:18And weirdly, James Weaver replaced me, who produces the studio. Well, then he went over to Seth Rogen's company and was an assistant there and is now basically running Point Grey. Exactly. So David Kramer's done something right. But I really kind of learned the business from him. And from David Kramer, I was lucky enough to meet Mike White. And I worked as Mike's assistant to begin with. And I became his producing partner after about a year or two. And we had a company together. And at some point, we did a show in Lighted and we did a bunch of movies together. And at some point, he came to me and said, you're too ambitious for me.

5:54You have to go off on your own. I'm holding you back, is what Mike said to me. And from that point, I really had to figure out how I wanted to build my business. And he was great. He was like, you can produce my stuff, but just go do your own stuff because you're you know i don't want i don't want to produce like you want to produce i mean i'm sorry just to take a step back mike white's assistant that can't be easy no no the dude the dude is so difficult they literally put him on survivor well you know it's funny it's like we actually initially bonded he was in post on this movie year of the dog and we bonded over our love of reality tv and we've said we're talking we're like we should apply to be on Amazing Race together.

6:32So we made a video. No way. We were wearing matching blue world war jumpsuits. We ran around Brentwood. We shot this really crazy video. I went, I like, I edited it on my MacBook. I dropped it off in Long Beach. And then two weeks later, CBS called us. And I ended up getting recast for his dad. I was going to say, he ended up doing it with his dad. Yeah, I got recast. They're like, the good news is we love you, Mike. Bad news is we hate that other guy. So you got to. Right, he's too normal. Let's get in. Let's bring in your dad. that's a funnier dynamic exactly so yeah so from there i kind of figured out how i wanted to build my business and i was fortunate to meet ruben fleischer the director and and we started a company together in the zombie land a bunch of others and i started coming uh at universal tv with him uh with bella obviously now is runs runs netflix and and and wheel and tracy picosta it's really that team now that's at netflix and the first thing we sold and did was superstore which ended up doing 113 episodes.

7:29Yeah. NBC. Yeah. And then the next thing we did was a show called The Bold Type for Freeform, which was also a huge success. So, and Ruben and I worked together about eight years. And a couple of years ago, I kind of, you know, and I think Ruben would agree. I'm, I'm just a go, go, go kind of guy. And I'm just moving, trying to move at a fast pace. And I felt like I was kind of, yeah, I just needed to kind of figure out my own thing. And, and, so about three years ago, I started a company at H24 and HBO and was fortunate enough to be, you know, they wanted to make a deal with me. Wait, the deal was with HBO or with A24 or both?

8:03I have a deal with both. And they're kind of like first look, second look. And it's very unique setup. And they're both great partners. And I've known Casey and Franny and them for a long time. HBO team. You know, 15 years ago, Mike and I made the show Enlightened together. So we've been in business with them, Casey, for 15 years. And the story of how White Lotus came about is pretty well known. You know, they went to Mike and said, what can you do during COVID? it. You said, how about this? And wrote it quickly and you guys shot it. But what I don't understand about White Lotus, and you're about to take off for season four, and this show takes eight months to shoot.

8:38The Thailand season took eight months. I don't understand how an eight episode show with largely one location and largely a smallish principal cast can take that long to shoot? What is going on here? Eight months, I think that's an exaggeration. The production itself is about five months, six months. Still, that's like a couple Russo Brothers movies. Remember, it's Mike who's writing and directing the whole piece. So you're kind of shooting a long movie. Thailand took longer partly because of weather and delays and there was about a, we probably lost about a month or so. Combination of COVID, you know, weather, like, you know, almost every day we were dealing with thunderstorms and kind of having a shutdown but it wasn't just one location we shot in six different cities so we remember we're prepping we're scouting we're shooting and it's all just one director so there's no advanced work um and we don't want to kill mike so we have to go at a humane pace uh white lettuce okay so so yeah so it's it's director contingent and i had heard that you know the whole premise of the first season was that you could do it for relatively cheap.

9:48I heard that by season three, White Lotus is one of the more expensive shows on HBO. That's not true. But I do have to say Casey Bloys, Francesco Orsi deserve an immense amount of credit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, of course. They do, Matt. They do. I get it. But my point is... They said to us, Matt, they said we didn't have any scripts. They're like, okay, Mike White, you're a genius. I trust you guys to go off and figure out a show. And when we went to Hawaii, I don't think Mike even knew how it ended. We just were off and running and have to figure it out. But it is, the show is, our budgets have minimally increased.

10:23Okay. And you famously do the whole thing where everybody takes a pay cut and works for the same. Is it still, what is it, 50 grand an episode? I won't get the numbers, but yeah, it's an MFN. Yeah, so everyone makes the same and it's not for cheap. But you lose stars. You lost Woody Harrelson because he wouldn't do it for cheap. No, no, no. That's, I got it. That's not true. So Woody was closed. He had a closed deal. He didn't do it because our schedule kept pushing because of weather. And basically, we pushed twice and Woody was good with the two pushes. And then eventually, it pushed into a week-long birthday trip he had.

10:58Which, true though, it speaks to Woody as a person. He called me and he's like, I'm dying to do the show. I just can't fuck over my family and all these people who had planned this trip for us. And we had pushed a month at this point. So it was not money related. Not money. Not at all. He was ready to go. And when he called me, it was like a pained conversation because he was dying to do the show but you must lose people because of the money yeah totally five six months yes like for not very much money the list is going to get widowed down but these people all get awards nominations they get endorsement deals like pretty good gig totally and i and i think to us like like the spirit of the shows we're all there together making this show and it's hard so it is a hard show to make and i think when kind of the way the deals are structured, you're getting people that are there, not to quote The Bachelor, but for all the right reasons.

11:48And so that's kind of how we built it and it works for us. Okay. So what is your role on the set of White Lotus? Mike and I have been working together, like I said, for 20 years. And so I'm kind of an extension of him. So you're the whisperer. Many of these productions have a producer who's like the director whisperer. That's you. Yeah. But I mean, Mike's talent beyond being an exceptional writer and director is he trusts people to do their jobs. He's not someone who's micromanaging. And I think that he trusts all the heads of departments, the DP, the production designer, costume designer. And he trusts me to kind of handle, to know what I need to do on a day-to-day basis.

12:25And my job every day when I wake up is different. There's some times where I'm overseeing the second unit. All those crashing wave shots people complain about. I'm helping to kind of oversee those shots and also dealing with anything that comes up, like you know cast related production related location related and i'm also at the monitors watching and if something and very rarely does something come up where i kind of will go and whisper to mike and go um maybe you need this or maybe you need that but that's a very rare occasion but i'm really just there to make sure everything is kind of working as it needs to work and mike has what he needs did you get involved in the feud between mike and the composer last season that was that was my favorite ask who gets in a fight with their composer well no wait wait a second i have to i don't i don't want to reignite anything so you guys oh please light the match this is where you're tempting me this is where i don't you're restrained i will just say this i've been working with mike for 20 years mike is one of the kindest people i know and generous of spirit people i know so that feud was i think a one-sided feud that became public unfortunately and we did everything in our power over five years to make that relationship work oh you know what though the music adds a lot to that show it'll be interesting how you guys find someone else we will but chris look chris was a genius it just and that's an unfortunate thing that happened but i will just say there's only one right side to that story and that's you know that's awesome says the producer who works with the side who's allegedly right that's okay i won't press you on it is it the hardest show you produce yes without a doubt because there's so many moving pieces and there's a lot of, there's a lot of cast.

14:06There's 25, 30 pieces of cast and we're moving a lot of movement locations. First season was just in Maui, but that was the hardest shoot I've ever done. That was in a bubble. People are on top of each other and there's COVID. And that was kind of this unknown thing. And people look to the producer, like I'm an epidemiologist. Like I should know how to solve COVID. And you're kind of dealing with the stress of that. plus just you know the anxiety of every day was a different issue and as we've gone forward the show's gotten bigger and bigger so and i think the pressure to be successful has gotten greater so it's like how do you yeah how do you pull this off and and have critics like yourself still like the show i'm not a critic okay well my taste does not matter i do watch the show and i enjoy it your taste matters to me okay yes it's it is it is the hardest show i've ever done give me a little tease for season four like what's the big challenge i don't want to know plot or anything like that but what's the big challenge shooting at a big resort in france well the tricky thing with france it's different from our previous locations is that we're shooting in the high season in france which is a destination you obviously have can you have can lion yeah how far are you from can here i don't know this resort one thing i'll say is that that's not the only resort the show will take place in the south we're shooting in multiple locations and it's been really like right before i got on with you i was talking to mike and you know there's date issues with the hotels are already booked out and differently.

15:29So we're trying to figure out how to figure out the jigsaw to get the locations we need to fit into the production schedule we have. We have actor availability. You know, that is always a thing that's in flux. Yeah, you're also heading off to shoot when you haven't announced the cast yet. Only two of the cast members have been announced. Well, we're deep in casting. So Mike and I, we have callbacks next week. France, we've been doing callbacks this week. We're really at the beginning of the casting process. So we have a lot. And there's gonna be, this is actually a larger cast than we've had in the past.

15:57I'll say that. With someone like you, it feels like the age of the generalist producer is kind of going bye-bye. And it's nice to see that someone like you can do more than outside of just the big filmmaking talent that they came up with. Like, what do you think of when you see the landscape for generalist producers these days? It's pretty grim out there. There just aren't a lot of projects and especially few deals at studios. So what is the trajectory and what's the best path for working producers to stay working? It's something I think about a lot and how fortunate I am. But if I was giving myself advice 20 years ago, I don't even know what I would say to kind of end up where I'm sitting here.

16:47It's really this windy road. But the only thing that I can point to for my own success is I've never been someone who's waiting around for CAA to send me that brilliant book because they're sending that to Brian Grazer. They're sending that to whatever other producer. So for me, it's just been about self-generation. And I've had to generate my own ideas. I've had to cultivate my own relationships. I'm really someone who I love every second of producing. And so for me, it's never felt like a job. And I've really gone out and built my career. And the truth is, working for Mike, Mike would base...

17:19I would sit in an office alone at Paramount, and he would ask me to do nothing. So I just basically sat and started taking general meetings as an assistant. And I ended up selling projects as an assistant. And I think it takes that level of entrepreneurship to be a successful producer now. But it is an incredibly soul-sucking job at times. You have to be just like an eternal optimist, which I luckily am, to wake up every day and think you can take an idea from your brain and somehow bring that to life. And that's really what I think. Well, you're also out a lot. I know that people like make fun of the fact that producers are out kind of schmoozing people, but you know what?

17:58It works. Like you got to have a profile. You got to be out and at these dumb parties. And like I saw you at two dumb parties this past weekend. It's like you got to be a presence so people know you and remember you. It's like people, I feel like young up and coming people in the business, they don't do that as much. Well, I mean, when I was an assistant, again, I was like doing drinks and coffee seven days a week. Like I was really out trying to meet people and taking generals with everyone. I would say yes. Text chain is not the same. Exactly. But in those people that those connections I've made and those relationships, because I'm also a genuine, curious person.

18:32I like meeting people. Those are people, you know, so when I go to these stupid parties, I see people I've known for 15 years, 20 years. And yeah, my advice to people is don't be a producer. That's my advice. If you can do anything else. Do anything else.

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20:05See homedepot.com slash price match for details. speaking of ideas that you came up with jury dude that was your idea well it was it was a yes and so basically i had made this movie with eric andre called bad trip and while making that movie uh i became really close with todd shulman who had worked with sasha baron cohen for a long time works with adam mccain now and todd would come in and give us advice and he had produced borat and bruno and at some point i went to todd and i said you know no one's ever you and i have both made movies in this hitting camera genre. No one's ever done it for TV.

20:40Why do we figure that out? And so it was really Todd, we were trying to figure out a premise where someone would be separated from their phone in a very real way and would be isolated. And it was Todd who really came back with, he's like, what about jury duty? Where there's a natural way to sequester someone and you have the ability to basically pull off these pranks. And our mutual great friend, Michael Lasker. Oh, guest on the town, manager, yes. One of the most special human beings on earth. Award season expert for no reason. He suggested Lee and Gene Eisenberg and Supnitsky, who had run the office and were great writers, and they had previously written a script called Jury Duty, and we basically repurposed what they had written and turned it into what is now Jury Duty.

21:23Because there had been, like, Joe Schmoe show, there had, you know, Truman show, obviously, but, like, the concept of dropping a unsuspecting hero into a scripted sitcom is pretty funny. It's the last pitch I ever took out in 2020. February of 2020, we went around and pitched the show to people. And I was insanely sick. So I was in these pitch meetings, probably had COVID. I probably made everyone else sick. But I remember we were pitching the show and people's faces were like, huh, like it was so out of the box that people looked at us like we were insane. All right, so Amazon buys it. Turns out great.

22:04You get a bunch of Emmy nominations. People love the show. And then they say, great, make another one. How in the world do you do this twice? The new season comes out March 20th. It's called - On Amazon Prime. Amazon Prime. We've graduated to Amazon Prime from Freebie. You outlived the platform it premiered on. RIP Freebie. Yeah, it's amazing. And then it's called Company Retreat. No, it's called Jury Duty Presents. Yes. company retreat. I watched the entire thing. It's hilarious. Yeah. So we basically went to it on a retreat, the small group of us. And it only starts with what the ending is. We wanted to figure out thematically, can someone become the hero of their own story?

22:47And can you get a real person to do 12 Angry Men to kind of turn a group of people in support of someone who's clearly being railroaded in a jury trial? So we kind of started talking about this idea of David versus Goliath, right? And like this mom and pop shops are being kind of cannibalized by these larger tech companies. Ironic that we're doing the show for Amazon. Listen, this show is produced by Spotify. We're all selling out here. I love it. And we kind of came, we talked about our love of 80s comedies and like this idea of slobs versus snobs and this idea of caddy shack and ski school and animal house.

23:22And what if a real person was put in this position and he kind of bonded with a group of, you know, slobs and the snobs were coming in to kind of take, take over this company. What would a real person do? That's kind of the premise. That's the beginning of it. So you've got this company retreat for a hot sauce company and they go to a week long retreat. Everyone's an actor except your guy. Yes. After going through that whole experience with Ronald in season one, how do you find someone who's not going to immediately say like, hey, is this jury duty? Like, what's going on here? Alexis is one of our producers who's amazing at, she works with Sasha also.

24:03She's amazing at finding these real people. And there's a really detailed vetting process in terms of, we have a sense of who they are and what their interests are. Do they watch comedy? Do they watch Amazon? So we have a sense of what they've seen and we feel pretty confident when they go into this experience, they haven't seen jury duty and they're not fans of the genre. I think we had 3 ,000 applicants, and then we kind of doubled it down to one person. And you only shot one. This isn't one where you shot five versions of the show. No, no, no. And the truth is, Anthony really... Yeah, the guy's name is Anthony.

24:36I don't want to give away too much details of the show, but you found this guy, Anthony, who is the most game person and ends up bonding with people. It's kind of amazing. But this is a genre now. The thing that I took away from this is like, oh, this is now... it's like when The Office premiered, it's like, okay, now the mockumentary is a thing. Modern Family can do it. You know, Abbott Elementary can do it. I think this is now a genre, the unsuspecting hero genre, because you guys have shown that you can replicate it. Yeah, I mean, really, it comes back to that thematic idea. Can someone become the hero of their own story?

25:13And I think like tonally what we're trying to do is they're never the brunt of the joke. It's never about them. They're reacting to a scenario and they're making choices that never puts them in a position to be made fun of or the joke. And it's, you know, not to be corny, but there's something very uplifting to kind of see, humanizing and uplifting to see, to be reminded of your good people out in the world who will do the right thing. Now you're veering into your award season narrative. We're not going to do that. It's just funny. It's a hidden camera show. Thank you. You have experience with hidden camera shows.

25:46So like, it's not a surprise that you would be the one to do this. Well, thank you. Yeah. I mean, the thing I've learned from doing it is, you know, and people are always like, how can you pull it off? But I think it's actually, it's harder to go. Everyone is here. You don't have to be such a narcissist to go. Everyone is here for me. This is all fake. Everyone has created this role for me. It's much easier to accept what's in front of you than to think you're in the Truman show. Right. But behind the scenes, there's a couple hundred people whose every action are going to influence whether the entire season is spoiled.

26:20Yes. that's the most stressful i mean white lotus is the hardest thing i i have to make journey is the most stressful because at any second any wrong any mistake could cost the entire shoot i mean not to get into details but we had a moment in the last day of this production that could have the whole thing up and it was it was i can't remember who it was there was somebody on the set that saved saved us it could have blown the whole thing and would have wasted your work yeah and in the final episode you show how everything was done and there's i mean i can say this there was a moment where there was a fire nearby and i kept thinking while i was watching you guys you know recounting that like oh if the entire set had to be evacuated there goes the entire show because this guy's going to be like wait a second why are there 200 people here at my company retreat we were crammed into a little room you've seen it like crammed into a little room watching and then i mean our producer nick hadden who's brilliant he devised this great idea of how to get us out every night and buddy sending our guy on a run to kind of pick up coffee every day and that's how we're able to leave but yeah and that's two years of work you know it's a long process to make that show it's longer than white lotus by the way what's the contingency plan if like day six you get discovered there's really is no contingency plan that's that's why i give so i have so much respect for amazon being like here's a lot of money good luck and you may come back with nothing i was gonna say the contingency plan is amazon sells a lot more toilet paper to make more to make more show.

27:45But there is no safety net. We are flying blind and we are hoping that we end up with a good show for people to watch. Stressful. Yeah, I can imagine. I don't want to give away any spoilers, but it is really funny. I appreciate it. Thank you. Do you worry about getting comedies made? We talk about that a lot on this show. You know, I consider White Lotus to be a dark comedy. I know others don't, but I've always thought it's supposed to be a kind of satire of the elites. and Jury Duty, obviously a comedy. Like, do you have other stuff in production? Do you have other stuff in development? What is the appetite right now for comedy?