In short
Morgan Neville discusses his documentary Lorne, which follows Lorne Michaels with “unfettered access” to 11 SNL show weeks over two years, including never-before-seen backstage moments and meetings between dress rehearsal and live show.
Guest backgrounds
Morgan Neville is an Oscar-winning documentary filmmaker (20 Feet from Stardom) and director of Won’t You Be My Neighbor? He also produced many SNL 50 documentaries. He interviews SNL figures including Lorne Michaels, Steve Martin, Tina Fey, and others.
Key claims
Lorne maintains distance to manage creative people and protect the show; he “manages up” with NBC/Comcast/brands and “manages down” through tiny notes and structure. Hosts influence sketch selection, but decisions are often practical (timing, costumes). Lorne’s power is used to protect creatives, and his strict routine (e.g., no meetings/recordings before ~4:30 p.m.) shapes production.
Notable examples
Lorne meeting Steve Martin; Lorne’s Maine retreat; Lorne refusing to start meetings early; Lorne talking with a Pepsico president at 1:30 a.m.; dress-to-live meeting where SNL’s “essence” is formed; Conan O’Brien’s departure as a contrast case.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Journey to Making the Lorne Documentary
2:36 to 3:39
Morgan shares his experience pitching the Lorne documentary to SNL's team.
“Okay, we are here with Morgan Neville, Oscar-winning documentary filmmaker and the director and producer and writer and cameraman at times of the new documentary, Lorne.”
Accessing Lorne Michaels and the SNL Set
3:39 to 4:25
Discover the unique access Morgan had during the documentary creation.
“And I've always thought of Lorne as such a unique character in this business.”
Uncovering Lorne's Unique Persona
4:25 to 6:07
Morgan discusses the complexity of Lorne's character and the distance he maintains.
“And I said, be way more interesting to do something more in depth.”
Lorne as a Power Broker
6:07 to 7:42
Explore Lorne's dual role in managing talent and navigating NBC politics.
“So I walk out of the room and I turn to his, the head of NBC late night, Katie Hochmeyer.”
Defining Moments of Lorne's Influence
7:42 to 9:47
Morgan reflects on specific instances where Lorne flexed his influence during the documentary process.
“Lorne is many things in different spaces and different times.”
The Complexity of Lorne's Power
9:47 to 11:45
Investigate how Lorne wields power while protecting creatives behind the scenes.
“What is an example of Lorne flexing his power that you witnessed while making this movie?”
Navigating Relationships in Showbiz
11:45 to 13:30
Discuss how Lorne interacts with talent and the pressures of the showbiz world.
“But I think the outcome would have been somewhat different at the very least.”
Documentary Challenges with Lorne
13:30 to 14:00
Morgan describes the challenges of filming Lorne and capturing his essence.
“Like, we know Lauren cares very much about his perception.”
The Nature of Filming Lorne
14:00 to 15:00
Discover the challenges faced while capturing Lorne Michaels on camera.
“the kind of character he plays, or is that the real Lorne?”
The Essence of SNL: Behind the Scenes
15:00 to 17:40
Learn how decisions are made between dress rehearsal and live show at SNL.
“I think he was genuinely incredibly uncomfortable to bring cameras into the room because he had never done that before in some of those key meetings.”
Show all 17 chapters
Lorne's Pep Talks and Expectations
17:40 to 20:04
Understand the significance of Lorne Michaels' pep talks before the live show.
“And, you know, what did you take away from those pep talks, having witnessed so many?”
Lorne's Work Routine and Adaptability
20:04 to 24:44
Explore Lorne's strict work habits and his approach to embracing change.
“What I loved seeing and capturing in the film is that he's really funny.”
The Future of SNL: Who Takes Over?
24:44 to 26:29
Speculate on potential successors to Lorne Michaels and their qualifications.
“there are no other 81-year-olds going to work in 30 Rock, you know, and he goes to work with young people.”
Understanding Lorne Michaels
26:29 to 29:28
Gain insights into Lorne Michaels' personality and relationships with cast members.
“I think the cast and people are worrying about that week and then maybe they're worrying about that season and then maybe they're worrying, are they going to come back next season?”
The Current Vibe on SNL
29:28 to 31:28
Discuss the evolution of the social atmosphere at SNL over the years.
“So in that mode, I feel like I understand a lot about who he is as a person, as much as he can ever be really known.”
Perceptions of Lorne Michaels
31:28 to 33:18
Dive into how different individuals perceive Lorne Michaels.
“I mean, and again, they're maybe afraid of him.”
The Future of SNL After Lorne
33:18 to 35:06
Consider what SNL may look like after Lorne Michaels steps down.
“And some people said, oh, it was 9-11, it just became an institution, or it was when it reinvented itself in the 97 season and Will Ferrell came in and all that.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:04Matt Belloni:This episode of The Town is presented to you by AMC Networks. Billy Magnuson and Zach Galifianakis star in the new series The Audacity on AMC and AMC+. Influence rises, people unravel, and CEO meltdowns are business as usual among Silicon Valley elite. Executive produced by Jonathan Glatzer, a writer-producer of Succession and Better Call Saul. The Audacity premieres April 12th, only on AMC and AMC+.
0:32Morgan Neville:This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Taxes, trust me, they sound far more complex than they actually are, and it's all thanks to TaxAct. They make it easy to do taxes online, offering step-by-step guidance so you can finish your taxes ahead of the April 15th deadline and get your maximum refund guaranteed. If you get stuck, just add expert assist, get unlimited help from a credentialed U.S.-based tax expert. Visit taxact.com to learn more.
1:01Matt Belloni:It is Thursday, April 9th. After the big SNL 50 anniversary celebration last year, it's easy to think we know all there is to know about Saturday Night Live and its creator, Lorne Michaels. But think again. I'm an SNL-ologist. I've read all the books and I still watch every week. and we've done many episodes of The Town about the show, but even I learned a bunch from the new documentary called Lorne. It's premiering tonight in New York and will be in theaters on April 17th via Focus Features. It's directed by Morgan Neville, who won an Oscar for 20 Feet from Stardom and directed the Mr. Rogers doc, Won't You Be My Neighbor?
1:36Matt Belloni:He produced a lot of the SNL 50 docs. And for this film, he got extraordinary access to 11 show weeks over two years of SNL, including all the cast members you'd expect, some you wouldn't expect, backstage moments that have never been shown before, like the meeting between the dress rehearsal and the live show where SNL really becomes the show that it is. And most importantly, a ton of access to Lorne himself. There's Lorne talking candidly with Steve Martin. There's Lorne going to his secret retreat in Maine. There's Lorne refusing to start meetings before 4 p.m. Craig, take note of that one.
2:10Matt Belloni:And most of all, there's Lorne holding together a show that has endured for 51 years and become a cultural institution, not to mention a source of immense power for Lorne himself. So ahead of that premiere, I had to get Morgan Neville on the show for his first interview about the movie. He's here today to talk about what it's like to spend two years with Lorne Michaels, the stuff that most surprised him about the show, and the future of SNL and much more. From The Ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellany, and this is The Town.
2:43Matt Belloni:Okay, we are here with Morgan Neville, Oscar-winning documentary filmmaker and the director and producer and writer and cameraman at times of the new documentary, Lorne. I got it. First of all, welcome. Thanks, Matt. I am very jealous. This was like my dream assignment. spend two years with unfettered access to Lorne Michaels and all of his inner circle and his secret retreat in Maine. And you got all of it in this movie. I want to start here with the overarching question, which is we've had the 50th anniversary special. We've had the music specials. We've had four separate SNL 50 documentaries.
3:26Matt Belloni:We had the Lorne book. We had the Saturday night movie by Jason Reitman. you had to go pitch Lorne on why he should do this and why it was necessary for him to do this why did you say there needs to be a Lorne documentary after all that because I wanted to
3:45Morgan Neville:see it I wanted to see it too and I'm glad I have I mean I like you grew up with SNL like many people and have been obsessed with the show since I was a kid and you know part of this was I was always interested in, like, how do they make the sausage? How does it work? And I've always thought of Lorne as such a unique character in this business. But the way this happened is so kind of backwards. You know, I met with him in 2023, early 23. And this is a couple years before the 50th. And the discussion was, we should do some documentary stuff around the 50th. and so he said you know think about it why don't you come out and meet me in new york and tell me your ideas so like two weeks later i go to lauren's office it's a show week it's a friday night i think i'm meeting with lauren i go in there and there are 15 people in the room and it's all the writers all the producers and lauren turns to me and says so what are your ideas so i have to get up and pitch this room.
4:54Morgan Neville:And essentially, at the beginning, I said, well, it's 50 years, you should do more of like a 30 for 30 model where you do five films, one for a decade, to kind of tell distinct stories about SNL, because they've already done the clip shows by the decade, and I've seen all those, and they're all kind of the same. And I said, be way more interesting to do something more in depth. So I pitched a bunch of ideas, including the Cowbell sketch and a bunch of other things that became the, you know, backstage at SNL.
5:24Matt Belloni:They did a whole documentary about the Cowbell sketch.
5:27Morgan Neville:Yeah, and I EP'd those. But one of the ideas, I said, of course, Lorne, there should be a documentary about you. And he didn't say anything. In fact, I finished pitching this room, and I stop, and Lorne says nothing. And finally, the awkwardness of the silence in the room, I say, so Lorne, what did you think? And he turns to one of his producers and says, Caroline, what did you think? And she looks like the kid in class that didn't want to get called on. And so she said, well, I thought there were some good ideas there. And then she tosses it to Steve Higgins, you know, who says something. They toss it to Eric Kenward.
6:03And Lorne doesn't give me any indication of what he thinks.
6:08Morgan Neville:Very on brand. Very on brand. So I walk out of the room and I turn to his, the head of NBC late night, Katie Hochmeyer. And I said, what just happened? And she said, oh, he likes you. You know, and I had the experience that all those cast members talk about. Yeah, it's like you auditioned for the show. Yeah, and I guess I passed the audition, but nobody told me.
6:28Matt Belloni:That's really funny. What's most interesting to me about this film is that it feels like the subjects you are interviewing are all on this journey with you. They want to know who Lorne Michaels actually is. And it's almost like they are hoping that you can uncover this truth about this guy who has been such a powerful and important force in their lives, but who they don't really know. So what is the most interesting thing about Lorne that you discovered in this process?
7:01Morgan Neville:I mean, Lorne is such a unique person. I mean, he obviously occupies this huge place in all these people's lives because he gave them careers in many ways. And then I was shocked to talk to people like Tina Fey, who's like, I don't really know Lorne. I was like, what do you mean you don't really know Lorne? You've worked with them for decades. You know, so for many of them, there's always this little bit of a distance still. So part of it, I think, is something that Lorne isn't somebody who just opens up. And in a way, I think it's part of one of the conclusions I come to in the film, which is like, Lorne is not a stationary entity.
7:42Morgan Neville:Lorne is many things in different spaces and different times. Yeah.
7:46Matt Belloni:And the distance he puts up between everybody and himself allows him to be that everything to everybody person.
7:53Morgan Neville:Yeah, absolutely. And he feels like he needs that distance because, as he said, you know, creative people are the neediest people and most charming people you ever meet, and they'll eat you alive. So I need to have a little bit of distance to be able to do my job, to not just feel like I love these people and they're important to me, but I need to put on the best show every week.
8:16Matt Belloni:And I think that also has helped him become such a savvy political operator within the structure of NBC, Comcast and the greater Hollywood ecosystem as well, because there's this unknowable quality about him and nobody feels like they're really that close to him. He's been able to operate across the studios and across the talent world with such effectiveness over the years.
8:43Morgan Neville:Yeah, I mean, I think it's something that Lorne really has two jobs. It's managing down and managing up. You know, the managing down we hear about because it's all the talent and the writers and the people who are famous and funny who tell those stories. The invisible part is the managing up. And Lorne's a genius at that. You know, there have been a dozen presidents of NBC in the time he's been there. And in the beginning, you know, he was, you know, begging, you know, Fred Silverman to, you know, get whatever sketch on. At this point, you know, the presidents of NBC come to Lorne. You know, the head of Comcast comes to Lorne, you know, that there's a real sense of the weight, the power center, and the gravity of what Lorne has brings people to him.
9:25Morgan Neville:And I saw that again and again. But that part of it is so invisible to the outside world.
9:30Matt Belloni:Yeah, there's this notion of power in the film. And Tina Fey calls Lorne the last man in showbiz. And I think what she's referring to is this kind of notion of him as having power, really, and knowing when to use it. What is an example of Lorne flexing his power that you witnessed while making this movie?
9:53Morgan Neville:In the time I was making this film, he was putting together the pieces for the SNL 50, which was the concert, the show. There was so much going on around that. And that was a very expensive endeavor. you know so you know i remember talking to lauren at 1 30 in the morning and he started he was regaling me with stories and finally i said lauren the president of uh pepsico is outside waiting for you maybe you should take that meeting instead of me and he's like oh yeah of course you know so he's he's meeting with brands in the middle of the night you know and for them you know for anybody it's it's a seductive environment to go into to be there with lauren on a show night but it's his On his terms.
10:32Morgan Neville:It's all on his terms. Completely on his terms. And he doesn't budge. I mean, Jim Miller says in the film that Lorne has amassed this power, but not in a hubristic way. It's not about Lorne. It's not Lorne Michael Saturday Night Live. It's about protecting the show. And he has done that so incredibly well.
10:52Matt Belloni:And arguably the creatives. I mean, Jim Miller, our friend, who's a chronicler of SNL, he's in the movie, and he says he does it so that he can protect all of these creatives. And I started thinking about that, and he's totally right. There is no—nobody on SNL ever gets any feedback. It all goes through Lorne.
11:10Morgan Neville:It all goes through Lorne. And Lorne often says, I am protecting people in ways that nobody understands.
11:17Matt Belloni:Yeah. And it's funny. We saw that because look what happened to Conan O 'Brien. Conan left the late-night show in New York that Lorne produced, and everyone's like, oh, Lorne just has his name on these shows. He doesn't actually do much on Tonight Show. He doesn't do much on Late Night. But Conan left, went to L.A. Lorne was not a producer on The Tonight Show when Conan went to L.A. All hell broke loose when they tried to put Leno back. And look who wasn't there to protect Conan, Lorne.
11:47Morgan Neville:I mean, we'll never know. But I think the outcome would have been somewhat different at the very least. If Lorne had been a producer on The Tonight Show with Conan. You know, I mean, that's what he can do. He can pick up the phone and get pretty much anybody on the phone and pretty much get what he wants. I mean, the show is so incredibly wasteful.
12:08Matt Belloni:Well, he says that in the movie. He does. It's a pretty remarkable conversation that you witness where he's talking to Steve Martin, and he's basically saying this show is incredibly wasteful. And he's essentially admitting, I think, that he's there in that chair partially to protect it from the cuts that he knows are coming once he is gone. You agree?
12:31Morgan Neville:Completely, 100%. But I think he also believes that the waste is part of what makes it great, which means you can play and do stupid things and shoot extra films during the week that you don't use.
12:42Matt Belloni:I mean, they have three camera crews going during the week and barely one of those camera crews is going to produce something that makes the show usually sometimes two. But it's incredibly wasteful.
12:54Morgan Neville:It is. But the other thing about the last man in show business that Tina says is just his ability to not be just a numbers guy or a money guy. I feel like he can speak that language as good as anybody. But the fact that he can also deal with really neurotic, brilliant, creative types. And he's been doing it for 50 years, that part of it, of just knowing, understanding these people who are again and again going from nobodies to superstars in front of him and what that experience is and helping people navigate that. I mean, he's brilliant at that.
13:29Matt Belloni:So he's pretty visibly annoyed by the cameras when you show up in the film. And you incorporate that, of course. Do you think that's an act? Do you think that is faux annoyance? Like, we know Lauren cares very much about his perception. He cares very much about awards. He knows the value of the aura around him. And he even talks about, others talk about this character that he plays almost. Do you think that that's all an act, the kind of character he plays, or is that the real Lorne?
14:03Morgan Neville:I think, as one of his friends said, there's nobody in the world that Moore really wants a documentary made about him and really doesn't want a documentary made about him. And that was my experience. What happens in the beginning of the film is my experience at the beginning of the shoot. Literally, day one, I pull out the camera. Like, we've had conversations on recorded audio. The moment the camera comes out, Lorne vanishes, just completely vanishes. and I'm searching for him for like half an hour. And I finally find him and he sees me and says, let me introduce you to somebody. He introduces me to the head of costumes and I turn around and he's gone again.
14:39Morgan Neville:You know, he's running away. And I feel like this is my first nature documentary. Like he's the spotted leopard that I'm trying to capture. But, you know, as you do as a nature documentarian, you acclimatize them. So you're there with the cameras long enough that they just start to change their posture. I don't think that was positioning. I think he was genuinely incredibly uncomfortable to bring cameras into the room because he had never done that before in some of those key meetings. Yeah, so let's talk about that.
15:09Matt Belloni:There's that time between the dress rehearsal and the live show where many believe that SNL's essence is created and the decisions that have made the show what it is are made during that time period on Saturday night. And that has never been shown on any camera before. And you had access, and it's fascinating. The one thing I was fascinated by was how much influence the host has in the direction of the show and the sketches that are chosen. In this case, it was Shane Gillis who was the host. I actually asked someone involved in SNL about that, and this person said it varies. Some hosts Lauren loves and defers to, and if they say, I'm great in that sketch, can you put it first?
15:59Matt Belloni:He will do that. Some he doesn't listen to. What was your impression of those moments between dress and live show?
16:07Morgan Neville:I think he really does listen to hosts for the most part. You know, I saw it again with Chalamet and Gosling. You know, I was in a lot of those meetings. He will always say, what sketch do you love? What are the things you really love that we've done? and those inevitably make it in. You know, the other thing people don't understand is a lot of the decision-making is also about timing or having two sketches back-to-back where people can't be, they have to change costumes. It's a lot of practical stuff. And so, you know, people have read a lot into what happens in these closed meetings. And there's a lot of kind of Kremlin-ology about it of like, what is happening in there?
16:45Morgan Neville:I think it's way more practical. What's really working? What does the host want to do? what's a good flow, you know, and Lauren has been doing this so long. He has an incredible sense of structure and flow from act to act and how to build a show. But I found him incredibly receptive to the hosts, you know, that he really does put the host front and center for that week. Yeah.
17:08Matt Belloni:And then there's a meeting after where he addresses everybody. I'd never seen that on camera. He gets up in front of everybody on the stage and kind of does a little pep talk in his own sarcastic way. The interesting thing about that is how wrapped the cast is. They are hanging on every word that he says. And I was thinking about that. It's, I guess, partially because they don't get much access to him during the week. And also, I think because it is the kind of make or break moment before they go on. And, you know, what did you take away from those pep talks, having witnessed so many?
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17:45Morgan Neville:I think, I mean, he's giving both really tiny notes, you know, the costume was too large in this sketch, you know, or just speed this up a tiny bit. And he's reading through all of his notes from the dress rehearsal, which has just happened. And it's kind of crazy. They have the dress rehearsal, they clear everybody. And then in the middle of the floor at, you know, this is essentially 1045, they have this meeting. but it is also kind of a rally to how to get them into shape and he is not somebody who lavishes praise on them, he's reminding them that this is about to be beamed into millions of people's living rooms so there's a kind of an expectation so he and people respond to it or they don't, but the people who've lasted have responded to it and I loved seeing that part of him You know, it motivated me.
18:41Yeah.
18:42Matt Belloni:I know he also seems to be this very strict creature of habit. Oh, my God. Where the show works because of a certain formula and he adheres to it. Of all the rumors and stuff that's out there about Lorne, which one is real? Most real?
18:58Morgan Neville:I mean, Lorne, they're probably all real. Well, he orders the same food. Same food. I go into that. But I mean, you know, his routine is unbelievably set in every way, you know.
19:13Matt Belloni:I know. We're going to adopt it on the town. No meetings or recordings before 4.30 p.m.
19:17Morgan Neville:I know. I mean, it's amazing. He built his entire—he built the show around his life. When he goes to bed, when he wakes up, when his kids were on school break, you know, it's kind of exactly what he wanted and in his form. It's an insane schedule for most people. I mean, that's the question a lot of people ask, because why are we doing this in the middle of the night? You know, why do we do it this way? And the real answer is because that's how Lorne likes to work. I mean, he'll say, as he does in the film, that, you know, there's something about working in the middle of the night that brings out a chaos and a kind of a creative instinct that you wouldn't have during daylight hours.
19:57Morgan Neville:But a lot of it is just that's how Lorne has always functioned, which is crazy. Is there a misconception about him that you feel you've resolved? What I loved seeing and capturing in the film is that he's really funny. You know, I don't think that's something we ever really get to see. You know, and I, and, you know, very dry. But I loved his, you know, we hear about how he speaks in runes and, you know, little riddles. But actually kind of seeing him in action, to me, just makes, that's the only time I've really seen that and felt that. So kind of getting a sense of what he's like in the room, how he talks to people, how funny he is.
20:43Morgan Neville:That was the thing, just that he's a real person, too, in the midst of all this. And the thing, I mean, I talked to him two weeks ago, and he has not seen the film.
20:53Matt Belloni:Yeah, will he see this one? He famously says he never sees any of this.
20:56Morgan Neville:Yeah, he said that again and again. We are having a premiere upcoming. And he opened the door that maybe, maybe he would sit through and watch it, which would be unbelievable because he's never done anything like that before. That's amazing. But even two weeks ago, he was saying, you know, people just don't understand that my job is a thousand tiny things, which I do understand. But it is, it's those phone calls he's making, you know, Monday morning and, you know, the little things he's doing in the offseason. You know, all these tiny little moves that are about kind of accruing that power that when he needs to spend it, he spends it.
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22:47Matt Belloni:So I was talking to someone who works on the show and because you were a pretty constant presence for two years, they are very highly anticipating this movie when it comes out. But this person asked me to ask you, having witnessed the show in that way for two years, do you have a sense of who might take over for Lorne?
23:11Morgan Neville:I mean, he's got his lieutenants now, you know, and that's, you know, Steve Higgins and Eric Kenworth. And, you know, people have been there for at least a decade or much longer who are great at what they do. And I think he's already, you know, let some of the more low-hanging fruit of obligations pass to other people.
23:32Matt Belloni:It's been a while since he chose the musical guests, or at least most of them.
23:36Morgan Neville:Yeah, yeah. And look into the music guests this season. I don't think Lauren's listening to a lot of it. He's not a big Anita fan. No, exactly. But I think that's actually, again.
23:48Matt Belloni:That's good. He knows enough to know that 80-year-olds should not be selecting pop music for a younger audience.
23:54Morgan Neville:No, and I mean, there's so much humor in the show about TikTok trends or things that obviously I don't think Lauren is up on. But he understands, again, this is kind of the lack of ego and his whole theme, which is the theme of the film, which is like change is everything. Change is constant. And he embraces change in a way that most people fear change. So he understands there are things he doesn't get. There are artists he doesn't get, but he trusts the people around him. And he also trusts young people. I mean, somebody said to me that, you know, he treats 24-year-olds with way more respect than they probably deserve.
24:33Matt Belloni:Well, they get to be showrunners on their own sketches if they're writers. Exactly.
24:38Morgan Neville:And a lot of them are straight out of college. And he's going to, you know, work in 30 Rock. Somebody said, you know, he's 81. there are no other 81-year-olds going to work in 30 Rock, you know, and he goes to work with young people. And that's something that he's comfortable with. But that kind of riding the wave of change and just applying the taste and the filter and the frame, but letting other people and trusting other people to bring their humor and things he may not get, I think that's really the secret to his success.
25:11Matt Belloni:I thought maybe because Tina Fey was the face of the SNL UK launch and the way that she kind of approached it and the way that that show opened well. And I thought maybe that was a sign that she is open to taking over.
25:28Morgan Neville:Yeah. I mean, maybe. I don't know if I would wish that job on anybody in a way.
25:34Matt Belloni:I know. And I think my more realistic expectation would be that it would maybe be split between two
25:42Morgan Neville:people. You know, and part of what Tina could bring, or maybe if Seth Meyers, but Tina would be great for it, is just being able to pick up the phone, having some of that juice going into the job. Because that's so much of what that job is. And if you need to be talking to advertisers, or you need to be talking to the network, it's having Tina Fey do it, you know, already.
26:03Matt Belloni:Yeah, or Taylor Swift, or whoever you want to make a guest spot, or, you know, all these people having someone who's a name might help.
26:10Morgan Neville:I do think that would help, but I don't think anything's happening until it has to happen.
26:17Matt Belloni:But did you detect a sense of nervousness amongst the cast and crew as to whether the show would exist even or what's going to happen when that moment comes?
26:27Morgan Neville:I think that's way too big picture thinking. I think the cast and people are worrying about that week and then maybe they're worrying about that season and then maybe they're worrying, are they going to come back next season? I don't think many people there are long-term thinkers, which is funny because Lorne is the ultimate long-term thinker. Like often, you know, he's the marathon runner of all marathon runners in a business that is so short-term thinking. You know, so he will see in a cast that it may not be gelling now, but two years from now, two seasons from now, this cast is going to be amazing.
27:01Morgan Neville:and having that kind of an outlook and having people now who trust him to have that outlook is kind of incredible. So he does the long-term thinking. I think most people there seem to be very much just in the moment because that's what the job demands.
27:16Matt Belloni:Which of the many cast members that you interviewed seem to kind of love and respect Lorne the most?
27:25Morgan Neville:I mean, they're definitely some true acolytes. um Mulaney seems pretty enamored Mulaney first among them I mean Mulaney not only kind of loves and reveres Lorne but I mean he's as much of a Lorne historian as I ever came across I mean I think he has peppered Lorne with questions for you know 20 years he loves the lore of the show
27:49Matt Belloni:and as a writer he probably had more access to him and he's been back
27:54Morgan Neville:as a host many times definitely so I would definitely say John But, you know, Fred, Fallon, I mean, there are a few people who are very close with Lauren who will, like, go on vacation with Lauren. Right.
28:07Matt Belloni:No, apparently it's only men get invited to the main house.
28:11Morgan Neville:The main house. Yeah, it's getting there. Even when I told Fred that we were going to go to the main house, he was shocked that we got the invite. It took me two years to get that invite, but that's my job.
28:21Matt Belloni:Why? It looks like every other house in Maine. There's a nice little lake. There's some flowers.
28:26Morgan Neville:Like, what's the big deal? I know, but for Lorne, just letting the guard down that much, you know, that's the spotted leopard who doesn't want to be seen. And just seeing him in his natural environment, you know, is just very uncomfortable for him.
28:44Matt Belloni:So, last question. Do you feel like you know Lorne Michaels after this process?
28:52Morgan Neville:I kind of do. I mean, as much as anybody's knowable, he's somebody who makes you, you know, he exudes the power and all the kinds of things we talked about at the beginning. But I feel like when you kind of set that aside and he's just, you know, when we get on the phone to this day, instantly he's just talking about this week's show or what's happening, you know, with the UK version of the show. And I love those conversations. And I think the more you're just in a good conversation with him and, you know, in kind of somebody who he likes to dispense wisdom and I love to hear his wisdom. So in that mode, I feel like I understand a lot about who he is as a person, as much as he can ever be really known.
29:48Morgan Neville:I mean, it's kind of, as you see, it's one of the themes of the film. It's like, it's not reducible to a thing, you know. Right.
29:56Matt Belloni:By the way, what's the vibe late night among the cast on SNL these days? because obviously the early days was wild and crazy. And there's famously, you know, story after story about the drugs and the partying and stuff. And then it went through this phase in the 2000s, 2010s, where it was all kind of like, you know, there were moms. Maya Rudolph and Amy Poehler had kids on the show, and it was very tame and different. I've heard that the kind of party vibe has come back to SNL. You were there late night. What is the vibe?
30:30Morgan Neville:I mean, a little bit of party vibe, but we're not talking 1970s party vibe. Right. Nobody's passing out from a cocaine overdose or anything. No, no. And it's, you know, they'll, particularly on show nights, you know, once the show's up and off, you know, I was there all night on a writer's night, but I was there late a number of writer's nights. It's not, there's still a lot of work to be done. So it's really not a lot of recreational partying, you know. And, but I do think, yeah, I think it's pretty, pretty tame in a lot of ways. You know, I mean, I, I know I haven't been there much this season, so we'll see.
31:13Yeah.
31:14Morgan Neville:Craig, do you have any questions?
31:15Matt Belloni:Um, yeah. What is the perception of Lauren from the perspective of talent versus writers versus NBC executives? Like, do they think differently about him?
31:25Morgan Neville:Did you have any NBC executives or anyone sit or on background and things like that? I did. I talked to some NBC executives. I mean, and again, they're maybe afraid of him. They're a little intimidated by him. Also, I mean, interviewing people about their boss, too. I know. Not. What are they going to say? Not easy, you know. And so you even see it in like Steve Higgins at the beginning of the film, you know, just, gee, you know, what can I say here? you know, because they're not used to talking about Lauren.
31:59Matt Belloni:Well, they're probably shocked that he's granted this access because he's built this wall around himself.
32:04Morgan Neville:A lot of that. So a lot of it just took time. I mean, I think there was a lot of resistance in the beginning to us shooting and just because we're like in the way and they have a job to do. And it's like another thing of having a camera in their face. But, you know, I think after a couple of years, they got more used to it. um but i you know i think i think they started to see what i was doing you know i think we were all i mean i think essentially why lorne did this was you know less you know you could say it's a legacy idea for him i think part of it is that but i think it's really just like i said i think he he my sense from him often is he feels aggrieved to love like people don't understand how what i'm doing and how hard it is and all the different balls I have in the air at any one time.
32:58Morgan Neville:So I think part of it is just like having a little understanding of what he goes through.
33:03Matt Belloni:Yeah. And the 50th anniversary gave him a reason to do this, whereas it may not have felt natural before.
33:11Morgan Neville:Yeah. It's funny. I asked everybody when I interviewed them, at what point did you think SNL became perennial? Like, at what point do you think it became a show that was not going to go way. And some people said, oh, it was 9-11, it just became an institution, or it was when it reinvented itself in the 97 season and Will Ferrell came in and all that. You know, a bunch of different answers. I asked Lorne, and he said, maybe this season?
33:36Matt Belloni:Oh, no. Well, that gets to the question. In your mind, should SNL outlive him?
33:45Morgan Neville:I think it should. I think it will. I mean, somebody said to me that the ip of snl may be more valuable than the ip of nbc you know i don't it's
33:53Matt Belloni:i mean i don't know about that but i think it's very valuable i mean the fact you can even have
33:56Morgan Neville:that discussion the fact that he just launched a new show this month in the uk is also crazy yeah and if it works they'll do it five other times exactly um i think there should be an snl it won't be the same because he's not there to protect it and and the wastefulness of it um
34:15Matt Belloni:Do you think they'll be shooting on a soundstage in Queens after Lauren is off the show and they'll leave 30 Rock?
34:22Morgan Neville:I think not immediately. I think it'll stay at 30 Rock for a while. I mean, there's a lot of low-hanging fruit of just huge casts, huge writing staffs, huge film production units. And they're fantastic. But I get from a network perspective, if you don't have Lauren there, that that's pretty pricey. so i think it will change not overnight but more gradually just because of you know that's because they don't want to outrage anybody i think it will feel the same for a long time but it won't ever be what it is underlorn well they'll certainly cut the popcorn budget i think that will be the first thing i know i did actually buy a popcorn machine in my office now i make popcorn myself
35:06Matt Belloni:that's the it's a great it's a great snack it really is the best snack so uh all right thank Thank you, Morgan. Appreciate it. Good luck with the film. Thanks so much, Matt. We're back with the call sheet, Craig. Not a huge weekend at the box office. Are you familiar with the Faces of Death franchise? I'm not. It's a remake, right? It is. This is sort of a seminal film for guys my age. This was the movie at the video store in the 80s where you and your friends would debate whether you were man enough to rent this movie. It was a horror movie from the 70s, but it purported to be real. It was presented as a documentary, and people thought it was actual murders and torturing.
35:52Matt Belloni:You could get away with that back then, all the way up until basically when the internet took... Like Blair Witch, even, in 99, everybody thought that was real. Well, we knew that was fake. A lot of people thought it was real. They did, yes. They marketed it as found footage. They hid all of the actors, and the actors were all basically sequestered during the run-up of the film. But Faces of Death went away. and now it's back. But the tracking for that one, it's got Barbie Ferreira in its indie. It's only 2.5, 3 million for the weekend. Let's talk more about this other rom-com, You, Me, and Tuscany, because this one is actually kind of interesting.
36:26Matt Belloni:I'm going to ask you to guess what the tracking is for this movie. You've seen the trailers. You've seen the ads. It's Regé-Jean Page and Halle Bailey, whose name I always mix up. She was in The Little Mermaid. He was on Bridgerton. what do you think this movie's tracking is 8 million 13 oh wow yeah okay that's nrg and it's a little high i've seen a little lower um let's set the line at let's get a little creative let's set the line at 12.5 million universal is releasing this movie they've had some success with these lower budget movies lately remainders of him did okay uh i'm gonna take the under i i i think that the drama is going to take away from a little bit of that audience and i don't know man reggae john page not what he was when he was on bridgerton uh will packer produces he's got a lot of good track record with success so i i think that he um he brings a lot here but i'm going to take the under on 12-5 there's just a lot in theaters right now like you still have hoppers and super mario you still have project hail mary you have the drama i would agree yeah i would take the under on this but all those movies star white people this one is targeting a black audience um so you know maybe there's a differentiator there it is not the same exact audience but uh you're going to take the over or the under well you're now are you trying to convince me to take the over are you i like it when we disagree you know i like i would be able to dunk on you and i like when you're able to dunk on me no i would take the under unfortunately you're taking the under too this is not based off anything this is not based on a book or just an original romantic comedy yeah yeah I would take the under on 12 screenwriter Ryan Engel writer of Rampage the rock monster movie that I enjoyed it would have been cool because if you look at the poster now it says from the producers of Girls Trip it should have said from the writer of Rampage it should have thank you would have gotten me way more interested in this movie alright we're both taking the under prove us wrong Will Packer prove us wrong and come on the town and dunk on me alright that is the show for today I want to thank my guests Morgan Neville, producer Greg Horlbeck, our editor Matt Pevick.
38:36Matt Belloni:And I want to thank you. We will see you next week from Las Vegas.
From the publisher
Matt is joined by documentary filmmaker Morgan Neville to talk about his new film ‘Lorne’, what it was like having exclusive access to Lorne Michaels and the behind-the-scenes moments from 'SNL' for multiple years, what surprised him about Lorne, what he thinks the future of 'SNL' looks like, and more (02:42). Matt finishes the show with an opening weekend box office prediction for ‘You, Me & Tuscany’ (34:37).
Host: Matt Belloni
Guest: Morgan Neville
Producers: Craig Horlbeck, Jon Jones, and Matt Pevic
Theme Song: Devon Renaldo
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