‘The Traitors’ and How to Craft Hit Reality TV in 2025

0:00A wise man once said, in this world, nothing can be certain except death taxes and your boy Johnny Bananas. Welcome to the brand new Death Taxes and Bananas channel, where we'll be recapping season 41 of the challenge every week with all your favorite cast members. I'm going to dive deep into the drama, get every side of every story, and tell stories about behind-the-scenes on-set antics. So follow Death Taxes and Bananas on Spotify, where you can watch every episode or subscribe to YouTube.com at Death Taxes Bananas on YouTube. This episode is brought to you by Netflix presenting Beef. Now nominated for 16 Emmy Awards, including Outstanding Limited or Anthology Series.

0:43Esquire raves. It's hands down the best TV show of the year. From Emmy-nominated creator, writer, and director Lee Sung Jin, starring Emmy-nominated lead actor Oscar Isaac, lead actress Carrie Mulligan, supporting actor Charles Melton, and supporting actress Yoon Ye Jung. IGN hails it a masterpiece. Lee Sung Jin's series remains an untouchable force. Beef, the most nominated limited series of the year. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Marketers know that feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions, reach, and reacts.

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2:03It is Friday, August 22nd. Hello from Edinburgh, Scotland. I'm here for the Edinburgh TV Festival, which is a big international television conference. All the big players in scripted and unscripted TV get together. panels, keynotes. I went to a dinner with a view of a castle, lots of scotch, and it coincides with the Fringe Comedy Festival, so there's great showcases at night. Both Fleabag and Baby Reindeer started as performances here. Anyway, as part of the festival, I did a fun keynote Q &A today with Stephen Lambert, a major player in the global unscripted TV business. If you don't know Stephen, he's the former documentary producer behind two of the very few British production companies that have been truly international.

2:43RDF Television in the 2000s, they did Wife Swap and Secret Millionaire, among others. And then since 2008, Studio Lambert, which is now owned by All3Media. He's done Undercover Boss, the Squid Game competition show, and he's got a huge breakout with The Traitors, which is the reigning champion at the Emmys and is up for outstanding reality competition show at this year's Emmys. We talked a lot about that show, both the UK and US version, how to cast a good reality competition, the challenges of the market for unscripted shows these days, what the big streamers are looking for and why that's different, why so many of the best formats now originate in countries far away from the U.S.

3:20It's a pretty interesting and undercovered aspect of the entertainment business. So today, no call sheet. Instead, it's Stephen Lambert and the view from the top of the unscripted TV market. From The Ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellany, and this is The Town.

3:38One thing I want to start with, and I don't want to get into all the stuff that you're doing at the company and everything, but I want to start with a question that I thought of when I was watching The Traders in the U.S., which, by the way, you're the defending Emmy champion, so congratulations. You won the Emmy last year. You're up for it this year. What is—yes, feel free. That's a big deal. In the U.S., you don't understand. These shows keep winning year after year. For a show like The Traders to break into that category, very big deal. what makes a good competition show psychologically? I'm not talking about the game.

4:13The game obviously matters. But what about the alchemy of people, game, and psychology of everything going on? Because you're very good at that. Well, it's all in the casting. I mean, so many shows are made by the casting. Obviously, if it's a scripted show, you want brilliant actors. If it's an unscripted show, you need brilliant people who can be themselves, and you need the right mix. The Traitors is a good example. That's a show where we have people who've come from big competition shows. They're great strategists, game players, whereas there are others who are less used to taking part in the competition, some of the housewives, but they're just amazing characters.

4:54And you sort of start off by finding one or two people that are interested in being in the show, and you think, well, who would complement them? You can never really kind of commit fully to your cast until you know all the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. And that's with the celebrity version in the US. Is casting a celebrity alchemy different from casting a quote-unquote civilian alchemy? It's different in as much as you know less about the civilians. Obviously, you can talk to them, you can do some test filming with them, but you don't know them in the way in which you'll know people who've been on TV shows.

5:31But the great benefit of having civilians, ordinary people, is that, first of all, they care an awful lot about it because for them, the money really matters. And secondly, and the fame, possibility of fame. Also, you can have secrets. You know, in the UK, The Traitors is a show that, until now, has been all about civilians. And so we've often had casts that have kept secret the fact that one is the mother of the other one or that they're a couple and they're keeping that secret. So there are lots of benefits to having civilians, but it's actually great doing both. Is there something in particular you can share with us that stands out in the casting process that will be either a red flag for you or something that typically will pique your interest about a person?

6:21In the end, you're looking for people who are going to be comfortable in their skin when a camera is on them. I mean, the great thing about the traitors is that although there are cameras all around the place, we don't produce the show in the sense that once they're in that castle, they play the game. We never stop the round table. It just happens. So you're looking for people who can be natural while being filmed. And when it comes to civilians, that's often the hardest thing to find. A lot of people become very self-conscious when there's a camera on them. And so the test is, are they going to be themselves while being filmed?

6:59That's interesting. The American and British versions of the traders are slightly different. Other than the celebrity element, what makes them different? Other than the host, we know Alan Cumming is doing whatever he's doing in the US version. Very different in the UK, but what else? Well, American television tends to move a little faster, although I think British television in its taste is catching up with the way in which American television is made. I think that historically, American television uses a lot more music. It's forever wanting to tell you what you should be feeling through the music.

7:37But again, the differences are becoming less than they used to be. Actually, we're managing to persuade American network executives that maybe we should have a little less music all the time because its natural sound is actually very intriguing and engaging if it's used in the right way. Obviously, if you're doing a show for broadcast, you've got a lot of ad breaks, and you've got to keep building the cliffhangers for those ad breaks. If you're making a show for the BBC, you've got a whole 60 minutes to fill without any breaks, which seems, for some shows, very long. We're lucky with the traitors.

8:15We're actually often fighting for a bit more time. But the fact that you haven't got those breaks is quite a big difference. That makes sense. What about the participants? Are Americans more comfortable being on camera? Are they showier? I always thought when I was making documentaries that the first time I was making them in America, this is a great place. Everybody seems to be given a media gene at birth. I mean, I think the fact that Americans are taught to do public speaking in school in a way that's very rare in Britain. makes a difference. I just think Americans are more outgoing, you know, British Reserve people.

8:53So when you find people in Britain who can feel comfortable in front of a camera and can talk and be themselves, that's gold. And we, well, that's what we're looking for all the time. There's also a lot more of us. There are a lot more to choose from. I want to get a little into the business here because you're at the center of the unscripted market and what kinds of shows are selling. What is your assessment of the market for Unscripted shows right now? Well, it's interesting. I mean, I think that there's an appetite for bigger. What does that mean? In the past, when the buyer bought a show, they were often spending millions of pounds, which was a big gamble for them.

9:32Now, when they buy shows like Squid Game, The Challenge, they are spending tens of millions of pounds. In doing so, they are going to have a show that has a real presence just from the off. But you can tell watching it. You can tell the production values are higher. Exactly. And we as a company, my partner, Tim Harcourt, and I, we made a decision a few years back to concentrate on trying to be in the big unscripted space. Because if you think of it from the buyer's point of view, it's a risk buying a show that costs millions. It's a huge risk buying a show that costs tens of millions. So it's actually, you're only going to do that with people that you know can deliver.

10:14And so the sort of the catch 22 of unscripted at the moment is, how do you get into the club where you can make the buyers feel comfortable that you can pull it off? And that's, if you want to in that club, surprisingly, it's actually not as crowded as you might think. Because there's only a few that can deliver that. Is it because of the global nature of the streaming services that the shows need to be bigger? is it because they're going after a wider audience than you might be going after if you were producing a show for a niche cable network or for BBC or something like that? Is that why they want to go bigger?

10:52Or can you potentially have a show that's smaller and reach a bigger audience because of the global nature? Sure. And obviously there are still some, you know, there's been some cooking shows on Netflix that have done very well that haven't been expensive. I think it's just that the streamers have got an appetite for something that has the production values of scripted. And if you're looking to be distinctive in such a crowded marketplace, doing that helps a lot. I also think there's an appetite in unscripted at the moment for existing IP, whether it's a scripted show like Squid Game that you can turn into an unscripted show, whether it's a game, an existing game.

11:39Traitors was an original format by the Dutch guys that created it, but it was based on the game. One of the reasons that show is so successful is that so many people play werewolf or mafia. And this was a clever way of turning that into a TV show. Why are Europeans so good at formats? I've never gotten a real answer about that. Everything seems to originate here. I think it's all to do with the way in which television grew up here. In Britain, we call it public service broadcasting. And it goes back to the origins of the BBC and ITV. Executives in Britain were promoted and praised for taking a risk and buying original paper ideas.

12:25The biggest difference between Britain and America, when I first started operating in America, was that in Britain, you expected to be sort of hugger-mugger with a buyer. You'd often go and have a coffee or a drink. You often didn't actually know what your idea was. You kind of half knew what it was. You sort of start talking to them about a half-baked loaf. Then together, you sort of work it out. Now, there was absolutely no way, once you were in that dialogue, that you could then offer it to other buyers. So there was a sort of encouragement for the British buyer to sort of create the show with you.

12:59That was completely different in the States. One of the big differences in the States is that everything is run through the agencies. And they're pitching multiple. And their whole approach is we've got to create a market for this. So don't come to me with your half-baked loaves. Come to me with something that's completely worked out, or preferably it's already been a hit in Britain, and then we're going to go to the market. We're going to pitch it to everybody. The big difference in the States is considered to be rude if you don't offer your idea to all potential buyers. Right. Why didn't I see this?

13:31Why didn't I get a chance to bid on this? Whereas in Britain, historically, that has not been the case. It's been the complete opposite. Once you start talking to a buyer, you don't talk to anybody else. And you think that leads to more original formats? I think it means that you're taking a risk on a paper idea. Whereas in the very competitive American market, you tend to want to have evidence of success, whether it's because it's already been a hit elsewhere or whether it's... Well, that's a big thing. But also whether it's been kind of completely worked out and been proposed by people who can definitely make the show.

14:09But that's not really answering that. But I think it's more to do with the fact that there are clearly lots of shows in the States that are bought as paper ideas. But the hits, the massive hits, the ones that have endured, have mostly been from overseas. Yes. But not overseas. It tends to be British or Dutch. Right. Well, it wasn't Survivor from Sweden. It was created by a British team. Okay. And they couldn't get it away here, so they got it away in Sweden. Okay. And Millionaire was definitely a British team. Oh, yeah. There's litigation over that. I actually participated in that when I was a lawyer.

14:47All right. Yes. I mean, those are the two shows that transformed broadcast television in 2000. suddenly. Because before that, alternative, unscripted was called alternative. It was alternative to scripted. And really, it just considered that it was sort of award shows. Like at the end of the corridor, there's the alternative department. And suddenly with Millionaire and Survivor, that completely changed. Suddenly you had these shows that were much bigger than all the scripted shows at the time. And it was revolutionary. Yeah, it's interesting to think back about that year, that first year of Survivor and when Millionaire was on ABC four nights a week in the US, generating 20 to 30 million viewers a night.

15:32Extraordinary. Very extraordinary. I mean, what was it like to be in the middle of that? Well, I mean, we came just after that and pitched Wife Swap, which we had launched here in the UK, to ABC. And it was so exciting. Andrea Wong was running Unscripted at the time. And she pushed it and got it through her system. And we launched. And that wasn't a big show like Survivor or Millionaire, but it did incredibly well. But it also wasn't a big show in terms of what it was. It was closed episodes. Each week we had to find a different cast, but it was a very strong format. And subsequently we did things like Undercover Boss, which was another closed format show.

16:16That was huge. I mean, that was the most popular new show in the 2009-10 season. Aired after the Super Bowl. Aired after the Super Bowl, which gave it quite a help. Yes, that helps. We inherited 100 million viewers and kept 40 million of them. it was very exciting watching the game because if your show is launching after the Super Bowl, you want it to be close so that everybody's watching, but you don't want it to go into extra time, overtime, because then the show's going to start at like 11 at night or 11.30 and nobody's going to be up watching it. That didn't happen. No, it didn't happen. We were on air at 10.20.

16:55Interesting. You mentioned the power of the streaming services. I think people will be interested to just know how you manage those relationships because they have so much leverage, they have so much power, and you really have to show your value at all times. I'm curious what that relationship, how you build that relationship and manage it. You're as good as your reputation and your relationships. I mean, the guy who runs Unscripted at Netflix, Brandon Reig, I've known him for a long time. You know, he used to be at NBC. He used to be an exec on Y-swap when we were doing it. So if you go back and have history with people, then that makes an enormous difference.

17:39He knew you could do Squid Game as an unscripted show, and he was trusting in you. Absolutely. But, I mean, that didn't mean that it wasn't a great worry for both of us. He said, you know, this is mad because if it doesn't work, it will probably destroy both our careers. and if it's a success, well, that's just another success. Let's carry on with something else. I remember seeing the headline on that. I was like, wait a second, don't people die on that show? And you got around that on your version. Well, they don't die, but with a prize pot of$4.5 million, it feels like dying when you get eliminated.

18:19That's funny. Breaking in a new format, how difficult is that now compared to five, 10 years ago? Is the market so saturated that the bar is even higher than ever? Or are people kind of tired with what they've seen and something new is easier to get them to gravitate towards? Well, both those are right. And I think it depends how you feel that morning when you wake up thinking, God, it's impossible, everything's saturated. Or no, everybody's desperately looking for something new. The success of The Traitors has given us this belief that, well, actually, you can launch a show and it can go very big, even though it feels like such a saturated market.

19:02I mean, the show is fantastic in the States. Here in Britain, it's enormous. I mean, it's a bigger show in Britain relative to what it is. I mean, obviously, Peacock is a different kind of platform to BBC One. But isn't the civilian one going to NBC? Yes. That'll be interesting. It will be interesting. I think it'll do very well there. Good. I will always trust you. Based on no experience in the TV industry, I do think it will. Because it's a big, broad format. That's what works on broadcast. Yeah. And it turns out people like watching people lie. They do. Yeah. It's very entertaining. Also, the clever thing about that show is that the viewer is in on it.

19:41You know, it's classic Greek theater where you know much more than the participants. Yes. Dramatic irony. That was the word I was looking for. I think it's called situational irony, where the audience knows more than the characters. Yes, or dramatic irony, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's such a key part of it. I mean, there was a successful show called The Mole, which had a hidden person in the cast. But the viewer wasn't in on it. And I think that the Traitor's format is so much stronger because the viewer is in on it. with a show where the viewer isn't in on it, you're so conscious as a viewer that you're really susceptible to the editing.

20:24And you can be steered in so many different directions because of the editing. Whereas with the traitors, right from the beginning, you know exactly who the traitors are. The whole question is, are they going to succeed in their desire to be there still at the end? But the fact you know makes the viewer feel kind of omnipotent. They say, why on earth can't they spot this person's traitor? Yeah. I was going to ask you why the traitor succeeded, and I think you just answered that question. Is that why you believe that? Yes. I think that's the core to it. And then I think the whole gothic dressing is fantastic.

21:03It's very theatrical. Very theatrical. Plays to so many sort of tropes that we know in fiction. And it's just a great romp with a fantastic motor of the round table. I mean, the round table is, it sort of puts you off the jury system, really, doesn't it? I mean, it makes you realize that people are so certain in their opinions based on so little evidence at times. And yet it's fascinating to watch as people get persuaded that so-and-so is a traitor, and often they're not.

21:42This episode is brought to you by FX's The Bear, with season four now nominated for eight Emmys, including Outstanding Comedy Series. The New York Times declares the series from comedy director Emmy nominee Christopher Storer a masterpiece. The fourth season of the acclaimed series features Emmy-nominated performances from Iowa Debery, Rob Reiner, and Jamie Lee Curtis. All episodes of FX's The Bear are now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers for your Emmy consideration. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, campaigns slow down, insights get buried, and opportunities get missed.

22:20That's why Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales. Using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. To learn more, check out Accenture.com slash Spotify. What is the art of a great pitch? I think making documentaries. I, above all, learned how to persuade people to do something. I mean... Oh, you learned that in documentary? Yeah, because in documentary, you have to persuade people to let you come into their life and let you hang around and film.

23:05Oh, you're talking about the participants, not the buyer. I'm talking about the participants. I'm talking about the act of... That's a journalism trait. It is, it's a journalism trait. With documentaries, it's often harder than, it's a different degree to journalism. Often with journalism, you're just trying to get an interview. With documentary, you're having to be there for weeks. Commitment. Longer. And you've got to be able to persuade people to let you do that. And nobody, I mean, this is like all self-help books, nobody ever did anything generally. On the whole, people don't do things for helping you.

23:37They do it because of their own interest. What's in it for me? So what you'd learn as a documentary maker is how to get into the heads of the people that you're trying to persuade to let you in and work out why it's in their interest to let you do that. That's a great skill. And it's a great skill for then being a pitcher of ideas. So you're putting yourself in the buyer. You're trying to put yourself in the – it's what I was talking about earlier about if buyers are looking for big shows, think about it from their point of view. How are they? They're not going to buy many big shows. And if they get it wrong, they're going to lose their jobs.

24:10Every executive just doesn't want to get fired. That's the core of their being, right? How do I not get fired? So when you're trying to put yourself in their head, how do you convince them to take a leap on something that could get them fired? Well, because if you don't buy a show ever, you're probably going to get fired. Although it's amazing how many survive doing that for a while. Right. you've got to understand how they're thinking and what the kind of thing is that will they most shows it's rare that you actually get to pitch to the ultimate buyer most of the time you're going through somebody else and so they've got to be able to communicate even you at your level yeah i mean you brandon won't hear your pitch no brandon will hear but anyway it's with most organizations there's some meeting that happens where the marketing people come and the PR people come.

25:07So everybody's got to understand what this idea is and you don't go to that meeting. And so it has to be something that you think will appeal to all of those people. You've got to have something that realizes that you need, whether it's you've already made it somewhere else, whether you can create a piece of tape. It's so much easier if you have the hit to show them. The cards are stacked in the favor of British American companies compared to pure American companies, certainly in unscripted, because we have access to our own IP that we've created here in a market where original IP creation is a priority.

25:46Yeah. Is there a show where you were particularly proud of the pitch, where you nailed it and explained it completely right and got a yes in the room? It's rare that you get a yes in the room. We did get a yes in the room when we pitched Undercover Boss. I would have thought that would be more difficult. Well, we made a great tape. Okay. And we went straight to the top. The executive at the time was on location on Survivor. So the pitch was to Nina Tassler. Who ran CBS. Who ran CBS at that time. and she cried when we played the tape. Oh, wow. And it was the height of the 2010 kind of financial crisis.