The WarnerMount PR War and the 'Dune 3' Ticket Crash

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1:19Matt Belloni:All episodes of FX's Love Story, John F. Kennedy Jr. and Carolyn Bissett are now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. For your Emmy consideration, choose love. It is Monday, August 24th. Another big twist in the Paramount Warner Brothers merger drama. Rob Bonta, the California Attorney General, he first agreed to settlement talks with the Ellisons over the antitrust issues that have stalled that deal. The lawyers met on Friday in advance of formal talks that were supposed to start today. But then around midnight last night, Bonta gave a statement to The New York Times calling off the talks and blaming Paramount for leaking news of the Friday meeting to The Wall Street Journal, calling it a lack of good faith.

2:03Matt Belloni:Quote, as soon as Paramount stops playing games and engages sincerely, my office is happy to meet again, Bonta said. Paramount then fired back, claiming it wasn't the source of the leaks. They actually put out their own statement saying, we remain hopeful and stand ready to continue good faith discussions to resolve the attorney general suit and move forward. Yada, yada, yada. So sounds a little like who stole the milk money in junior high. Very petty here. But clearly this is all part of the negotiation game. Both sides trying to get some leverage. Or is it what's actually going on here and the communication strategies in particular?

2:39Matt Belloni:Lucas Shaw is here to discuss. He's our Monday guy. We're also going to get into the recent Dune Part 3 movie ticket debacle. Yet again, a big IMAX release by AMC has left some fans pissed off. They can't get the tickets that they want. The ticket site wouldn't work. And scalpers gobbled up a lot of these 70mm tickets. Not great. So a little Dune 3 tickets and a lot of the Paramount vs. California update, the PR strategies at work. From The Ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellany and this is The Town.

3:12Matt Belloni:Okay, we are here with Lucas Shaw from Bloomberg. Welcome back, Lucas. You are in San Francisco today? San Francisco. What are you doing there? By the way, you should be plugging your big conference. You don't use this platform to plug your shit. Do it. Plug away. Well, you just did it for me. No, give us the details. We interview, I don't know, a dozen, 15 of the most important people that all listeners of this podcast will know. It's coming up at the end of September, top of October. It's one of the reasons I'm up here. So we've got Netflix CEO, Ted Sarandos. We've got Disney president, Dana Walden.

3:45We've got NBCUniversal's Donna Langley. We've got Ben Affleck. That's the big one for me. We just booked someone else that I think you're going to be pretty excited about that I'm not allowed to disclose yet. Casey Bloys from HBO. Adam Aaron. Was it Adam Aaron? No, we have not had Adam. That's because he only comes on the town. Yes, if Adam has any interest in having a relationship, he knows where to find me.

4:08Matt Belloni:Okay, well, it's a good event. You and I do a live show from there. So it's a good time for all. I recommend it highly. All right. So let's talk today about the latest in the Warner Mount saga. Unbelievable. We got word on Friday. They're going to meet. We saw some reporting over the weekend about how one side or Paramount says not them, but somebody characterized this meeting. and then boom, Rob Bonta issues a statement to the New York Times around midnight and says, no, we're not meeting. So what is going on here? I have my take on this. You please enlighten us. No, I want your take first. I have slightly different take on this.

4:52Matt Belloni:People are like, oh, was it Paramount? Was it not? They've denied it. Rob Bonta says it's them. It sort of doesn't matter, right? You and I know how this works. Most of the time when people start pointing fingers at who leaked something, they're wrong. Or they did it. It's the classic Trump, like, how dare you do this? But in fact, that's what I do. Well, that's what people think about Bonta. I mean, the paramount friendly interpretation here is that Bonta realizes he's dining out on this and getting himself on talk show after talk show and raising his profile and raising his name recognition, which, as we know in California, is sort of all that matters in politics.

5:32Matt Belloni:If people know who you are, they're much more likely to vote for you. So he potentially, I'm not saying this happened, may have ginned this up and called this off to get himself some more attention, which worked. The problem with the, because Paramount and a lot of people, I think, have been pushing the, like, Bonta just wants attention, this is all political, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And sure, maybe long term, there's some benefit, but like, Rob Bonta is going to win re-election as the Attorney General of the state unless something crazy happens. And then he has nothing else to run for for a while.

6:04Matt Belloni:What about Congress? I guess he could run for Congress, but there's a governor's race right now that he did not jump into. So yes, he could run for Congress. He could run for Senate. I guess some of these are possible. Or he could try to be Attorney General under, you know, President Newsom or President Shapiro or someone like that? Sure. All those things. I have to admit, my initial response when Bonta canceled the meeting was I kind of enjoyed it. Why? Because it poked the eye of Paramount? Because Paramount has spent two years now, but maybe longer than that because I've lost track. Between the Paramount, well, between David Ellison's initial pursuit of Paramount, then his pursuit of Warner Brothers, playing all sorts of games in the press and being very manipulative and very gifted at it, but I think spreading a bunch of stuff that was sometimes true and sometimes not and really kind of trying to use the press and public interest to their advantage in these days.

7:07I mean, just look at their pursuit of Warner Brothers, which they tossed out there a few times.

7:12Matt Belloni:Well, but let's go back to the Paramount Skydance merger because Sherry Redstone was absolutely manhandled by them. Yeah. Well, yes, she was manhandled by them. She also did her own leaking. But yes, the Ellisons have very successfully managed some of these. And so just seeing someone kind of like push back on them and try to use their same playbook against them, I have to say I kind of enjoy. Because when it was Netflix, Netflix didn't really do that. Like they weren't interested, it seemed like, and sort of playing those games in quite the same way. We still don't know where some of these stories came from.

7:49Matt Belloni:And I would not be surprised. Netflix has a lot of lobbyists and special PR people in DC. Paramount has their own as well. Paramount has a far more sophisticated kind of lobbying and legal group, at least when it comes to politics, than Netflix did because that's who David Ellison had surrounded himself with in a lot of ways. Whereas Netflix had mostly avoided trying to kind of get in DC's crosshairs. Anyways, we don't need to talk. Well, if you go on social media these days, there is an organization called Neighbors for Strong Communities. Have you seen these ads? They're random advocacy groups.

8:28Matt Belloni:They're pushing. It's anonymously funded and they're pushing for the Warner Mount merger. And they won't say who is funding them. Now, Paramount says it's not them. I would not be surprised if ultimately it linked back to some LLC called like Larry's Lanai pineapples or something like that. Yeah, I'm very I'm yeah, this stuff is all very thorny because if you remember the day before or like the week Ted Sarandos testified at the Senate over that deal, there was a report that came out that was leaked to deadline that was all about sort of like Netflix being pro trans and peddling LGBT stuff. If you talk to people at Netflix, they're convinced that Paramount was indirectly behind that.

9:10I have no evidence of that. And I'm really reluctant to get into like, unless you can try it to the person, I don't want to tie it to the person. Exactly.

9:18Matt Belloni:And the day that Rob Bonta sued, remember, that was the day that we learned that David Ellison is putting together this coalition to get a federal tax credit in D.C. So like the timing of that was fishy as well. And when I pointed that out, I got in a lot of trouble. So let's just not, let's just not, let's just stick to the facts, which are that Paramount has waged very effective campaigns. Eventually they've, they've, they've often there, I'd say the trajectory for Paramount has tended to be overconfidence at the beginning, kind of like screw it up, but eventually get their way and very effective kind of use of the press and the media, um, and of lobbying.

9:58And so I, I, I don't know who leaked what. I just think it's funny to see someone else kind of almost doing the same thing right back at them. It's not great for the people stuck in limbo. I get that, but...

10:11Matt Belloni:No, it's awful for people who are sitting there waiting to see if their job is going to be eliminated or if they can buy the movie project that they're competing with four other studios to buy or if they are looking at a potential opportunity elsewhere and deciding whether to move, which a lot of these people are. So it's just a, the whole thing is a bad situation. And I just, I wonder if all of this, like if they're just playing 4D chess here and Bonta is looking down the line, because keep in mind, this is all normal in litigation. Like my colleague Eric Gardner made this joke online. Like we've reached the stop playing games portion of the settlement negotiation because this is what happens.

10:55Matt Belloni:One side accuses the other of leaking. This is going on in the range CAA lawsuit where, you know, they're accusing each other of leaking. And one of them accused him of leaking to me. And I was like, guys, I wish was not that was not the case. And there's other like this whole Mark Ruffalo anti-Semitism thing is part of this as well. Because, you know, obviously Mark Ruffalo's comments about, you know, linking Oracle and some of their support of Israel and all this stuff to this merger. Not great. You know, he says adamantly he's not anti-Semitic. Paramount says pretty adamantly that they think he is, but that's a debate that they would like to have.

11:33Matt Belloni:Right. Because it completely distracts from the criticism of the deal. Yeah, exactly. And that's I made this point before that the political stuff is actually good for the Ellicott's because it takes the focus away from the merits of the case, whatever they may be, and puts it on other things that can be explained away. so deep down they went they hope mark ruffalo keeps keeps yapping his mouth it's good and bad because i believe you have said in the past on the on this show that you think that the ellison's politics and their occurring favor with trump are a big reason why they have this lawsuit where had they maybe been a little more diplomatic with that that it wouldn't be so the politics cuts both ways but i this is so clearly kind of pretext to a to settlement conversations and it's just like who is going to have maximum leverage and what are they going to what are they going to ask for right is it like you could it do you do you think that this kind of helps pave the way in any way for paramount making structural concessions yeah they know they're going to have to now what the journal reported this weekend was that the two things bonta wants are divestitures of some cable channels.

12:47Matt Belloni:They did not say which ones. And structurally to keep Warner Brothers separate and not interfere in the operations of Warner Brothers. I think that one, you know, a little bit more difficult because what's the point in owning two studios if you can't manage them both? But they know, I think Paramount knows they're going to have to sell some cable networks. Don't know if that's going to include CNN. They say no way, but maybe if it gets a deal done, sure. I just I don't know I don't know that we know anything more today than we do than we did last week on that front it's going to be really funny if the conclusion of all this is like David Ellison has to sell Food Network and HGTV like we go through all of this and the outcome is he sells some of these these networks that we never talk about in the context of this deal and that that is enough I don't know that that's going to be enough I don't because I don't think that makes the Democrats go away.

13:44Matt Belloni:Rob Bonta is looking for a political win here. He wants something that he could put in an ad when he runs for Congress or when he's up for reelection or when he's running for governor in four or eight years. So I just don't think that's going to be enough, but we'll see. I mean, the interesting dynamic to watch is the dynamic amongst the politicians and Bonta, because you now have the three most prominent voices on the Democratic left that are relevant here, you have the current governor, you have the incoming likely governor, and you have the mayor of LA all saying, settle this. Right. And the longer he goes on this, the more those voices could get louder.

14:24Matt Belloni:And, you know, on the, on the paramount side, what is it? 37, 36 days until this is a meaningful problem for Ellison. October 1st is the deadline where they're going to have to start paying money. So if they see this as a 30 something day plan to get to a resolution, then they're not in the danger zone quite yet. I guess it depends on how long you think settlement talks take. This is part of the settlement talks. This is part of the gamesmanship. I understand, but they are not. But I'm talking about like meaningful trading of ideas, right? And maybe that can come together really quickly. Maybe it can be something that you do in a week, but seeing as it feels like they're going to be pretty far apart at the start, it probably takes longer than that.

15:13Matt Belloni:The last thing Bonta wants is States withdrawing from this. And I don't think it's going to happen, but if that does, then that puts additional pressure on him. I'm sure that the Ellison team is looking for any and all ways to apply pressure. Now they're going to hear this and start calling them. I'm sure they already know. I'm sure they already have. I'm sure they've called every single person they know who could possibly whisper in the ear of Rob Bonta. And they are all on his call sheet, not getting their calls returned right now. Sure. It is not a coincidence that you saw a steady drumbeat of prominent Democratic politicians coming out and saying, settle it.

15:51Yes, exactly.

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17:14Matt Belloni:Evening, buyer's remorse. Buy a new car? I'll be moving in. Let's get started. Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana. You what? Yeah, great price. I even have seven days to love it or return it. So there's no... No, no buyer's remorse. More like buyer's rejoice. I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it. Buyer's rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Carvana.com. All right, let's move on to the other big topic from this past week that I have an opinion on, which is the debacle of ticketing for 70mm IMAX.

17:56Matt Belloni:We saw it with the Odyssey, and now we've seen it again with Dune Part 3. People are pissed. They want tickets to something that there aren't that many tickets for, and they are flooding the servers, and AMC cannot handle it. The question is, why can AMC not handle it? it's the same discussion we have every time there's a, an issue around concert tickets, when there's a lot of question. Yeah. A lot of demand and limited supply. This is just the, the concert businesses problem coming to the movie business. And if anything, I would view this as like a weird thing to say, but like huge positive for the movie business.

18:37Matt Belloni:I know it's so funny. Uh, I talked to Adam Aaron at AMC about this. And first of all, he pointed out that they sell 5 million movie tickets a week. So it's not an insignificant amount. And they're having problems on essentially four theaters. The big four IMAX 70 millimeter theaters, New York, LA, a couple others, that those are being overrun. And the fact that they sold 75 % of their available inventory for opening weekend for a movie that doesn't come out for four months, like that is a problem he will take any day of the week for a business that, as he told us, Last year, they have a, what, 20 % occupancy, typically, of these theaters.

19:21Matt Belloni:Teens to 20%. Like, of course, they're going to take some people pissed online. Do you have a... Because in the concert business, there's not really an answer for this, right? It's what's inspired all types of legislation. One could argue it's why the DOJ kind of restarted looking at Live Nation again, which owns Ticketmaster. but the music business can't really solve for it. Do you think there's a solution on the movie business? More theaters that show this and Adam told me that they're trying to figure it out. He's talked to Rich Gelfand about it at IMAX and they're trying to figure out because it's not a theater problem.

20:01Matt Belloni:It's a projector problem. We did a whole episode on this two weeks ago. You can listen to that. There are no manufacturers for IMAX 70 millimeter projectors anymore. so there's two separate issues here there's the ticketing issue and then there's the supply and demand issue he said they're going to fix their website he says there's like a two million dollar fix where they can make it better so that people don't get locked out and there aren't you know people buying 20 tickets when other fans go without there's stuff going around reddit of some guy who apparently bought like 80 tickets for one of the imax 70 millimeters of dune and They can stop that via their ticketing system with a little bit more investment.

20:41Matt Belloni:That doesn't change the demand problem. And the demand problem is what we talked about. There's only a couple of these movies per year. So if that investment, if that. So the investment is essentially betting on the future where there may be more of these, which I think if you build them, they will come. The movies will come. And it's about getting. But who's going to build them? Are we going to have Christopher Nolan start a company that builds those projectors? I made that exact joke last week. I don't think it's a joke. I think he could. You think he would raise money and start a manufacturing firm for IMAX projectors?

21:20Why not? If Martin Scorsese has a film preservation company. That's true. I mean, if you were younger, I don't know. Jim Cameron probably doesn't care as much about 70mm. Or like Clinton. or can we have a bunch of these directors band together?

21:37Matt Belloni:Well, Nolan's going to make more than$100 million on Odyssey, way more. Don't aggregate me. Do not aggregate me on that. I've not done the reporting. But he's going to make a shit ton of money on the Odyssey. Maybe he plows it into an IMAX camera manufacturing company. Maybe he could do that. And then second, he could buy CityWalk and turn it into a good mall.

21:58Matt Belloni:Christopher Nolan should not have to spend time in a crappy mall like CityWalk. he's better than that you can just talk to to Donna Langley about that she doesn't care because CityWalk makes money if Christopher Nolan cares I think she'll care okay maybe he may be perfectly content having CityWalk be what it is because then he's allowed to just blend in yeah it's still embarrassing to see those videos of him walking from the parking lot like he's better than that you know who could start a 70mm company to reinforce his love of cinema and Hollywood who? David Ellison oh that would be great he has the money he would be the hero of Hollywood he would all the people who've decided that he's the villain or at least some of them would swing to support him yeah maybe free pitch for David Ellison you don't have to give me any fee maybe Larry Ellison could make this part of one of his data centers for Oracle it's like half data center and half 70mm projector company on the outskirts of Texas that would be amazing Yeah, so Adam Aaron, our guy, he wrote on the Twitter that to, quote, protect all our guests, your scalping days are numbered, he says.

23:11Matt Belloni:We are monitoring eBay and other sites. We will do our best to cancel your tickets and close your Stubbs account. It is a violation of our ticketing terms to scalp AMC tickets. Think that's going to work? No. God forbid you lose your AMC Stubbs membership. I don't think it's going to work. I mean, it's the same problem that the music industry has had. It hasn't stopped there. If there is demand, the scalpers or resellers in the parlance of our times will come in and take advantage. Yeah. It's very hard to come up with a fix beyond limiting who can access a sale, which people don't want to do. Yeah, I know.

23:54Matt Belloni:I think they could limit ticket buying, though. How? Significantly limit. No, just like you, you know, instead of Joe Blow being able to walk up and buy 80 tickets or whatever, you're limited. Oh, you mean just limit how many how many tickets you can buy? Yeah, you limit names or credit cards or whatever and try to apportion it a little more equally. I know that won't stop the bots. I know that won't stop creative people, but it would at least try. Craig, do you have your tickets yet? No, because I couldn't get them. And it's the one bummer. I agree with everything you guys are saying. And it's a good thing.

24:27and demand is good, but it's just more exclusionary now than it's ever been before because normal people cannot go see a movie now in the format that they are told they should see it in. It's really hard to do that for a normal movie fan. And that does kind of suck. You have to do it four months in advance. And even then you probably won't get it, which is kind of a bummer.