Venice, Sundance, and the New Film Festival Hierarchy

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1:13Build quotes faster and source the materials you need to keep your jobs moving. Just like that at Lowe's. It is Wednesday, August 27th. I'm sorry to say it, but summer is officially over. Tonight's the opening night of the Venice Film Festival, which marks the start of the fall film festival season. It's Venice, then Telluride, then Toronto. And over the course of two and a half weeks, we'll get a pretty good sense of this year's Oscar race. These festivals aren't just for awards, of course. There are also markets for independent films where producers and sales agents and lawyers take their movies without distribution, screen them, hopefully get good reviews and crowd reactions, and ultimately sell them to be released around the world.

1:54It's a pretty brutal business, and the fail rate is extremely high. Even when the buyers bite these days, the margins usually aren't what they used to be. But when a film really hits, it can be an exciting time. So the festivals are a great place to assess the general state and health of the independent film market. And nobody is a better expert than my guest today, the consummate independent film producer Christine Vachon. Christine has been making movies for decades now. She produced Todd Haynes' first feature, Poison, which won the Grand Jury Prize at Sundance back in 1991, all the way up to The Materialist, Celine Song's big hit from this summer.

2:29She produced Oscar winners like Boys Don't Cry, Far From Heaven, Carol, Past Lives. Her company, Killer Films, just celebrated its 30th anniversary. And she's in Venice right now because, of course, she's got a movie premiering called Late Fame starring Willem Dafoe and Greta Lee. We taped this chat last week before she took off radially, and we talked about the challenges of getting challenging films made these days, where money is coming from in the indie space. I asked her to power rank the festivals based on where she most wants to premiere one of her movies. Of course, I asked her about the wine selection at airport lounges, which is kind of an expert on that subject.

3:03So today it's Christine Vachon, the fall film festivals and inside the indie salt mines with a top producer. From The Ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellany and this is The Town.

3:18All right, we are here with Christine Bichon, proprietor of Killer Films and probably the consummate independent film producer working today. Welcome, Christine. Thank you so much. Congratulations. 30 years, same company. Not many people can say that. That is for sure. I kind of can't believe it. And sometimes we wonder if we should be telling everybody because maybe we should, you know, stay 29 forever. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. The 39 year old of movie producing. Exactly. No, it's a big badge of honor and you have a great reputation. And I want to talk about the state of the independent film and film festival landscape through your eyes, because we are heading into the fall festival season.

4:07You are headed to Venice. We're taping this a little early, but when this airs, you will be in Venice. You've got a film there, Late Fame, with Willem Dafoe, Greta Lee. that film is a pretty small film. It does not have a distributor yet for the U.S. And I want to use that film as a window into the state of the system here. What is the best case scenario these days for a small movie like Late Fame? What are you trying to get out of Venice and just out of your distribution deal? You know, Late Fame, it is a good example because, you know, It's a very strong script by Sammy Birch, who wrote May, December, nominated for an Oscar for it.

4:51Which you produced. Exactly. And when she brought us this script, it's pure Sammy. You know, it's beautifully written, has that kind of Sammy wit. You know, it's terrific. So we put it together completely independently. And, you know, these days, you know, character-driven drama, even if it's sort of a dramedy, which I guess I would characterize late fame as, those are the toughest nuts to crack in several ways. For one thing, they have to be executed perfectly. They are execution-dependent in the most brutal way. So there's that. And then they have to connect with an audience. And are the festivals still the best curator of that audience?

5:36Does Venice matter as much as it maybe once did? That's a hard question to answer. I would say that the fall festivals matter. Venice, Telluride, Toronto, the curators of the awards season, essentially. And the New York Film Festival. And New York, sure. You know, some movies go to one, some movies go to two, some movies go to three, some movies go to all four. So it's a kind of, I feel like as opposed to Cannes and Sundance, which are sort of standalone in a way. The fall festivals, how a movie sort of moves through them and, you know, takes perhaps resonance from one festival to the next, I think that matters.

6:19And are the streamers still interested in smaller indie movies? Because there was a period where Amazon, you know, at its inception, they built Prime Video's movie business on these independent style movies like Manchester by the Sea that could get awards attention. They have gone a completely different direction now. They are doing big, broad, big budget stuff if they can, theatrical plays now. And Netflix, I feel like if they smell any hint of awards, they may bite. But otherwise, are they even interested in this stuff anymore? It's hard for me to know because I feel like the business is changing under our feet so constantly.

7:05And I feel that we get told more about what companies aren't interested in than what they are interested in. Well, that's the history of the movie business. Well, I suppose that's true. But Netflix picked up May, December because they smelled awards chances for Julianne Moore and for Charles Mountain and all of them. Correct. And maybe that will happen with late fame and maybe it won't. But what if it doesn't? That's what I'm curious about. For the 99 % of movies for which it doesn't hit that bullseye, what are the options now? I guess the options are there is a new, smaller distribution companies that don't pay giant MGs.

7:48Sure. Minimum guarantees, yes. Sorry. that might see this as, might see a movie like Late Fame, which that won't happen to, but let's, you know, a movie, say, similar to Late Fame that that was happened to, they could see it as a real opportunity. And a lot of those smaller companies, the only way for that, the movie then to return to its investors, return on its investment, really, in that kind of scenario, is for that company to put some resources behind it, which are probably resources that don't go towards a minimum guarantee. Sure. What's your take on Mubi? How do you feel about them? Because they got a lot of attention for the substance.

8:28They did a fundraising round that valued them at a billion dollars, supposedly. And they are a streamer and a distributor. What's your take? Whenever somebody there's a new company on the block, I'm thrilled. Yeah. Making and releasing the kind of movies you like to be. And Ariana Baco, who just took over, you know, the movie side, I guess acquisitions, I'm not absolutely certain of her title. I'm not either. But she's got a great reputation, terrific taste. So I think the more distributors, the better, you know, that is, that is our mantra when it comes down to like, there's two distributors that could possibly buy your movie.

9:06Right. One. I mean, we had a script that we are trying to get into production that we had a terrific meeting with a potential financier. And they ended up turning it down because they felt there was only one buyer for that finished film. Oh, wow. Interesting. Yeah, it's all about having a healthy ecosystem with buyers that are finding a business out of this. And if MUBI can find a business out of making and releasing the kinds of movies that you want to make, you are going to try to support them as much as you can. And it seems like, to me, the future here is smaller niche services that cater to what is essentially the arthouse crowd that has now migrated to streaming and can build enough subscribers around their business that they can pay decent money for these movies.

10:04Where are we in that happening? That's it in a nutshell. And the glass half full version of that. It's that there are a lot of new, young, interesting financiers out there. A lot of them were involved with late fame that are, you know, that seem to understand movies and are investing not to lose their money. Nobody invests to lose their money, you know, but are investing often because they really love the project. They love the patrons of the arts, as we like to say. They're not patrons. So they're not they want to make money, but they're OK if they don't. That's my point. Well, I suppose anybody who's investing in film has to be OK if they don't.

10:49Right. Yes. Nature of the beast. Yes. It's not like putting your money into, you know, dairy futures or something like that. Like it's it's different. Where are the money sources these days that are different than what we may have thought about in the past? Well, I'm finding that there's, in terms of equity investment, there's kind of two. There's the kind I just described. And then the other kind, and these folks have existed probably since the beginning of time. The other kind are folks who made their money doing something else. Sure. Rich guys. Yeah. But they made their own money. They didn't inherit.

11:25so they consider themselves true businessmen and you're right they're mostly men so i don't know why i'm making it i know i was gonna not gender it and i was like you know what they're men they're men there are there are some that are not gg pritzker is a great example she has a great company she's an heir to the hilton family but she has made a great business in entertainment and stands on her own but most of them are men so those guys tend to approach the movie business like, hey, I'm a great businessman, and the way you make movies is so chaotic. I'm going to impose my business document on it.

12:00I figured it out. It's possible. It's impossible. And it never works, and it ends up like, you know, tears all around, basically. So I'm also finding that there is a certain philanthropic factor that is starting to come in. I think seeing that, you know, say with the demise of a company like Participant, that there is a need if you feel that these stories should continue to be told. I mean, Participant obviously was often telling stories that were around an issue. Sure. And that was Jeff Skoll, who is an eBay guy who decided to create a company that would have dual goals of making money in the movie business, but also spreading positive messages about subjects he cared about.

12:48Right. And a good example of that was Todd Haynes' Dark Waters, which was a terrific film starring Mark Ruffalo, but was also based on a really gripping story about a lawyer who finally was able to bring DuPont down for poisoning people. But it was also a thriller. Yeah. Where are you on the Saudis? Do you think it's okay to raise money there? Do you find indie producers going there? Are the Saudis even interested in these kinds of films? I don't think they're interested in mine for kind of obvious reasons. On the other end of the spectrum is a movie like Materialist, which you also produced. And that was Celine Song.

13:28And it was A24, cost, from what I read,$20 million and made$65 million worldwide. That is a big hit in the indie world. So far. So far. Just opening in the UK this weekend. So lots of other markets. Definitely. So A24 here. A24 has been interesting. They have been a company that has figured out how to make the kinds of movies you want to make and at least on paper, make money doing it and raise a lot of money. Now they seem to be moving more into commercial fare and higher budgets. Is that the messaging you're getting from them? And do you worry a little bit about that shift? It comes back to the more distributors, the better.

14:15We've had a long, really productive relationship with A24, and I don't really know their inner workings that much. I mean, I have very good relationships with multiple executives there, and they all have different things that they gravitate towards. I love that David Laub has now resurfaced at Neon, for example, because Laub has been a champion of the kinds of movies that Killer makes, but also just like terrific arthouse movies with that commercial bent. Who is David Laub? I don't know him. David Laub was at A24. What does he do? He was, you know, I don't remember his exact title, but he was the guy that kind of looked after the more independently minded films.

15:06Okay. Neon is maybe picking up a little bit of that slack. I guess that's a long-winded way of saying that, but I also don't, you know, I have no reason to believe that A24 is totally out of that game either because, you know, we still have very active conversations with them about the kinds of directors that we like to work with and the kind of stories they want to tell. Well, and you make a past lives and then you get materialists, right? Correct. And that seems to be the strategy, just like the big studios will give a small director a bigger title, maybe out of his or her league. And then when that succeeds, you get him to do the blockbuster.

15:45This is like the indie version of that. That's right. Except that doesn't happen that much anymore. No, it happens less often.

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17:27So I want to get to the festivals here. And we love to do like power rankings on the show. I know it's reductive. I know you probably think it's silly, but let's do it. The power rankings of the film festivals right now. Who's number one in terms of influence, where you want your movie to be, where you think it is the best chance of getting showcase, getting attention, getting a distribution deal, getting awards attention. You have your choice of all the festivals. Where do you go? All right. So that is, and I'm not trying to game the question, but you said some very different things. You said awards attention, distribution deal.

18:08Those can often be different. Okay. So in terms of awards attention, I would say right now probably can and probably best if you win a prize there. Yes, I agree with you. And I think that's changed in recent years with the addition of so many international members of the Academy. Because it used to feel like if you won something at Cannes or you got the critics there, it's like, OK, that's nice. But that's Euro. That's their niche. They're artsy. That is not the mainstream Academy attention. But now, with so many members there, it increasingly is. It can be foreign language. It can have hardcore sex in it, like Anora.

18:53It can have all sorts of things in it and still be an Academy movie. And I think that's really benefited Can. Absolutely agree. but in terms of making a North American sale, it's Sundance. You think so still for narrative and docs? Docs aren't my, sure. That's not my thing. So I can't really speak about that. I would say for docs, it may well be Berlin. Oh, interesting. I would have said Sundance for docs. Cause I always love the docs at Sundance. Oh, the docs at Sundance are so amazing. I always think it's because, you know, the narrative filmmakers tend to be at the beginning of their careers.

19:30Right. And the doc filmmakers tend to be much further along. So they're, you know, they just are a little bit more accomplished. Why is Sundance still so good for acquisitions? Is it just because their reputation, their curation, the beginning of the year thing? It's those things, but also everybody goes. I mean, that's the thing, you know, the issue sometimes, the reason why Venice, you know, taking a movie to Venice, you sort of need to have a little bit of a bounce with another festival is not everybody goes to Venice from North America. Sure. Yeah. How do you see the move of Sundance from Park City to Boulder impacting that festival?

20:12This is the last year in Park City. They're moving to Colorado. I've heard lots of mixed things about it. I think ultimately it's going to be a positive, but a lot of question marks there. How are you seeing it? Well, you know, I was very vocal about being Team Cincinnati. Oh, you were? Oh, I had no idea. Oh, yeah, man. Oh, I thought I was not. Come on. Are you going to get Hollywood people to go to Ohio in January? They want to see the movies, they'll go. And if you're inventing a festival, why not go someplace that is much more accessible to young filmmakers? Okay. Well, College Town is a lot more accessible than Park City.

20:49I will say that. Boulder has a lot more, I think. So it's going to be a little bit more accessible. But what I was going to say, that's water under the bridge. And I don't want to get into the Cincinnati pissing match. We should do it on our own. But I would say, I agree with you. I think it's a way for the festival to reinvent itself. I'm very excited, obviously, by Eugene Hernandez's appointment there. He's great. He's terrific. And wherever Sundance ended up, it was going to be a time of change, but hopefully change for the future. It's a risk though. Like there is something about those venues and the salespeople know the kind of crowds that go to the Eccles, the kind of crowds that go to the library, what kind of movies to show in these venues, when during the day to show them.

21:39There's a whole science to getting a reaction at a festival that you want to get. And we don't know what that alchemy is going to be like in Colorado. But that's exciting to me. I mean, I've spent hours on the phone parsing the library versus the Eccles versus 8 p.m. versus 6 p.m. versus the first Saturday versus the first Monday. I mean, I can recite those conversations in my sleep. I like the idea that you go someplace and it's all just like roll of the dice. You know, here we are and we're going to have to figure it out. I think that I think that will add an extraordinary energy to the festival.

22:21Look, what I really want is, you know, I can't tell you, you know, how many filmmakers have to like, you know, mortgage their homes to go to Park City. And what I really want is that it can become a more vital place in Boulder where, you know, that attracts the younger part of the industry. Yeah, there's a whole survivor ethos right now, I think, going through the film festivals. Like, what are we in an age where movies are largely accessible online and filmmakers can make anything they want, but they need us as a curation vehicle? That's a whole separate topic. So beyond Cannes and Sundance, what is your third on the hierarchy of film festivals right now?

23:04Of the fall festivals, which do you think is most impactful? I do think it's still Venice. They haven't leaned too far into the, for lack of a better word, star-fucking, where they just want George Clooney on the red carpet? They all want George Clooney on the red carpet. And they would probably, if they were on this podcast, they would say, how do you think we get to show the other movies? Sure, I get it. They need the fashion and jewelry sponsors in order to be able to do everything. I get it. That's always been an aspect of the festival business is the glamour pays for the investment in up and coming artists.

23:38Exactly. But that said, you know, a shot on that Venice red carpet with, you know, the canal behind you, et cetera. I still think that's very, that's impactful. And I think winning a prize at Venice can tee a movie up for fall success. Yeah, it's funny. Last year, Toronto gave its audience award to the Mike Flanagan movie that I'm forgetting the name of, but it was not an awards-style movie. It was the first time in a while that Toronto did not kind of curate a Best Picture nominee. That's right, because the year before, it was American fiction. Yes, exactly. And that really helped that movie get all the way to the Oscars.

24:20I still think Toronto, with its more populist audience, that audience award is the most impactful for the Oscars. I still think that last year, notwithstanding. You could very well be right. I mean, remember Green Book? Green Book was not that long ago. And when it won the audience award. I can't even talk about that movie. I mean, people were like, what? Okay, I guess this is an awards movie and it ends up winning. Yeah, let's put a shrap over that. Have you ever thought about producing a studio movie? Like a big budget, it. Like, let's just do it. I mean, we've produced a number of movies that have been backed by studios, like One Hour Photo, which was Fox Searchlight.

25:01But that's the indie division. That's specialty. Right. You know, we made a movie with Orion, you know, with Billy Porter. I mean, so we made, you know, it starts to get confusing to try to parse out like, that's a studio movie and that isn't. Like, isn't A24 a studio? Now I would say yes. They're making movies with The Rock. They're making movies with, you know, a lot of big stars for mid-budget movies. So like, yeah. I mean, I guess if what you're really asking is, you know, would you ever do a Marvel movie? Right. I'm like, if it was the right one and if I was right for it. They're hiring Chloe Zhao.

25:38They're hiring the half Nelson, you know, Bowdoin and Fleck. They're hiring some indie directors. Maybe they'd want you on that. Look, one of the things that has kept Killer alive for 30 years is we pivot easily and we're not afraid of change. To me, those are the things. You know, you've got to be nimble. You've got to be fast on your feet and you can't freak out. The rug gets pulled out from under you. Your low-key secret favorite film festival. Something I wouldn't think of. Probably San Sebastian. Oh, really? Why? Well, first of all, it's in the most extraordinary place in the world with fantastic food and fantastic wine.

26:18And because of that, people really like to go. Yeah. So it's one of those festivals where everyone that you couldn't actually get to from across the room at Cannes or at Venice shows up there. You might randomly see Barry Jenkins or Willem Dafoe or someone like that. Yeah, that's fun. Okay, so you got quasi-famous on social media back when Twitter was fun and we were all there. I'd remember when it was. Yes. You have very specific opinions about airport lounge wine. Give me your current status on which airport lounge has the best wine selections on offer. Okay, so Delta Sky Club as opposed to the Delta One Lounge.