In short
Michael Linton, former Sony Pictures chairman/CEO, discusses his role in greenlighting The Interview (Seth Rogen/James Franco) and how he believes his “grave error” helped lead to the 2014 Sony hack and retaliatory cyberattack by North Korea, plus lessons from mistakes in Hollywood.
Guest backgrounds
Michael Linton ran Sony Pictures (2004–2017) and later co-wrote From Mistakes to Meaning with Joshua Steiner. The host is Matt Bellany; other on-air participants include producer Craig Horvath (Oscar campaign chatter).
Key claims
Linton says the hack was his mistake, driven by emotion and abandoning Sony’s normal approval process after a table read. He claims Sony tried twice to remove the assassination ending; filmmakers refused. He argues journalists “dumpstered” stolen emails and that Rogen never acknowledged Sony employees’ discomfort.
Notable examples
The Interview’s assassination plot; Linton’s “on the fly” decision; NSA/federal attribution to North Korea; Julian Assange publishing emails via WikiLeaks; George Clooney as a rare public supporter.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroducing Michael Lynton and the Hack
1:22 to 3:33
Explore the themes of success and failure in Hollywood through Michael Lynton's experience.
“Most books written by Hollywood people are all about success.”
The Importance of Addressing Mistakes
3:37 to 5:28
Understand the value of confronting past errors, as shared by Lynton.
“You were experiencing it firsthand, and I was covering it in daily astonishment of what was going on.”
The Greenlighting Process of 'The Interview'
5:31 to 11:43
Learn how the decision to greenlight 'The Interview' unraveled for Sony Pictures.
“And by exposing myself to what actually happened and really trying to get to the bottom of it through this interview process that the book takes place, it was incredibly helpful to me.”
Consequences and Reflections on the Sony Hack
11:44 to 14:09
Delve into the aftermath of the Sony hack and Lynton's insights on the experience.
“company, which has its own specific relationship with North Korea.”
Revelations from the Sony Hack
14:09 to 14:37
Discussing the fallout and personal experiences from the Sony hack incident.
“And I would have hoped that he would have thanked them at a very minimum, you know, in some way, shape or form.”
The Psychological Impact of Decisions
17:05 to 19:32
Exploring the emotional factors that influence decision-making in Hollywood.
“You know, the history of Sundance is getting the right crowd into that premiere screening.”
Defining Mistakes vs. Failures
19:39 to 21:08
Clarifying the difference between mistakes and failures in decision-making.
“It's funny because the character that Seth Rogen plays on the studio is kind of similar to what Michael is describing he was going through at Sony trying to fit in with the cool actors.”
The Fallout of the Sony Hack
21:14 to 22:21
Reflecting on personal accountability for the Sony hack incident.
“Mistakes, and this is an interesting one to look at, failures are when people come together and in a very methodical way, come to a decision that has ambition, like something big should happen.”
Industry Reactions Post-Hack
22:26 to 24:32
Discussing the lack of support from Hollywood during the Sony hack controversy.
“You probably don't because you were around then.”
The State of Hollywood Today
24:34 to 26:39
Examining the changes in Hollywood since leaving in 2017 and its future.
“You fear that they're still out there and you're now talking about this again?”
Show all 13 chapters
Consolidation in the Entertainment Industry
26:40 to 28:00
Analyzing the impact of digital players and consolidation on traditional studios.
“Now the Ellisons are going after Warner Brothers, as is Netflix, which has a deal.”
Lessons from Mistakes in Hollywood
28:00 to 29:59
Explore the importance of honesty and understanding in dealing with mistakes.
“Those six or seven players that were there or six players, they were pretty much there until about 15 years ago, 10 years ago, without anything happening to me.”
Timothée Chalamet's Oscar Campaign Analysis
30:00 to 33:54
Discuss the strategies behind Timothée Chalamet's Oscar campaign and its implications.
“Craig, have you been to any of these Timothee Chalamet career retrospective events that are going on in LA?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Matt Belloni:This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first, but didn't live up to the hype? Marketers know that feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions, reach, and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not so great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that, bull spend. Instead, why not invest in what looks good to your CFO? LinkedIn ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. Reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. You can target by company, industry, job title, and more. So cut the bull spend.
0:37Matt Belloni:Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a$250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com slash the town. That's linkedin.com slash the town. Terms and conditions apply.
1:00Matt Belloni:This episode of The Town is presented by the Walt Disney Animation Studios Zootopia 2. Now nominated for the Academy Award for Best Animated Feature. The Hollywood Reporter hails Zootopia 2 knocks it out of the park with this dazzling visuals, sophisticated humor, and genuine emotion. For your consideration for Best Animated Feature. It is Friday, February 20th. Most books written by Hollywood people are all about success. iconic movies, the career path to becoming the biggest star in the world. There's a new book out by a Hollywood person, and it's all about mistakes and failure. And it's most surprising because it's co-written by a guy who made it all the way to the top of the business.
1:40Matt Belloni:Michael Linton was chairman and CEO of Sony Pictures from 2004 to 2017, a very successful run that also included the devastating Sony hack of 2014, an act of international cyberterrorism that linton is now blaming on himself in a new book with joshua steiner called from mistakes to meaning owning your past so it doesn't own you linton opens up for the first time about the hack and what he says was his grave error in green lighting the interview which if you don't remember was the seth rogan movie about two guys sent to kill kim jong-un the leader of north korea it's a silly comedy but the movie indeed ended with the assassination, a fact that the North Koreans did not love.
2:24Matt Belloni:And the U.S. government concluded they decided to hack and cripple Sony's computer systems in retaliation, leading to the release of hundreds of thousands of personal documents and emails. Linton says his error was getting swept up in the emotion and hanging out with movie stars. Quote, I had grown tired of playing the responsible adult of watching the party from the outside, he writes. There is a long history of stars charming execs into making their movies, of course. But Linton wasn't that guy, or at least he thought he wasn't until the interview. And he's talking about it today on The Town for the first time.
3:00Matt Belloni:Today, it's Michael Linton and learning from mistakes and failures in Hollywood. From The Ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellany, and this is The Town.
3:12Matt Belloni:All right, we are here with Michael Linton, who is the chairman of Snap, the former chairman and CEO of Sony Pictures, and the author of a new book that is called From Mistakes to Meaning, Owning Your Past So It Doesn't Own You. Welcome, Michael.
3:28Michael Lynton:Thank you for having me, Matt. Nice to see you.
3:30Matt Belloni:You too. So it's been a while. You and I both went through the Sony hack on very different sides of the equation. You were experiencing it firsthand, and I was covering it in daily astonishment of what was going on. Very rare that you see a Hollywood person write a book explicitly about their failure or a time in their life that did not live up to expectations. Why in the world did you do this?
4:02Michael Lynton:The book in its entirety is about mistakes. And we interviewed, it goes back to a time I wrote it with Josh Steiner, my partner in this, good friend. And he, about a few years back said to me, we were going for a walk. You know, there are all these books about failures that are sort of humble brag books. But what I think is really interesting is mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. Not everybody has the opportunity to have a big failure. Do you want to do this? And I've been, you know, this thing, the hack, and it's what came afterwards had been rattling around in my head for years. And I had not been wanting to deal with it.
4:37Michael Lynton:I had not been wanting to really think about it. And I felt like this was a really good opportunity to bring it to the fore. And it wound up to be a great experience. Interesting.
4:47Matt Belloni:You find it cathartic, almost, to sort of put this out there? Because you've never really talked about this before, kind of right now. I mean, you wrote the book, but this is the first time you're really talking about the experience as you lived through it.
5:03Michael Lynton:Absolutely. So yeah, there were a few times that I spoke with the press during that time, and you and I probably spoke then too. But the minute it was possible to put this in my rearview mirror, I did exactly that. And I never spoke about it. The point to the book and why I did this is by never dealing with it, never really understanding why I made the mistake, and obviously being embarrassed and ashamed of what had happened there, it really was not a healthy thing. And by exposing myself to what actually happened and really trying to get to the bottom of it through this interview process that the book takes place, it was incredibly helpful to me.
5:44Matt Belloni:So let's get into this and what you call your terrible mistake of greenlighting the interview. You say that you made that decision, quoting your words, on the fly outside my normal process. So take us into how this movie came about. We all know the movie that as it came out, Seth Rogen, James Franco, Randall Park. But what you reveal in this book is that there was a lot of debate at the time about whether to make this movie even after you greenlit it. So take us through the process and the table read and everything.
6:23Michael Lynton:So what happened was we had made a lot of movies with Seth Rogen, had real success with him in the R-rated comedy, so had Universal. So he had two places to go. He was in an active relationship with both. He presented Amy Pascal with the movie first.
6:39Matt Belloni:She was co-running the studio with you and running the studio part. You were her boss as the CEO.
6:44Michael Lynton:Right. And she really wanted to make the movie because everything up until that point had been successful. There was something in the back of my mind at the time that I was a little bit nervous about it. I couldn't quite put my finger on it. And so we both decided to get me comfortable with the whole thing. We would have a table read. Now, because we were in a competitive situation, we had to make the decision very quickly. I walk into a room filled with actors and executives. I was the only guy there in a suit, which was typically my role, the guy sitting there in the dark suit. and the whole thing started and it was hilarious.
7:22Michael Lynton:Everybody was laughing. And when it was over, people were high-fiving and saying, let's do this. And for the first time at that point, I'd been in the job for about 11 years, 10 years. We had a very strict process in place as to how we greenlit this thing. It just went out the window. And I said, let's do this. And now I understand perhaps why I made that move, but it was very much out of the norm for me and for the studio.
7:50Matt Belloni:You write in the book that for a moment, I wanted to hang as an equal with the actors. I had grown tired of playing the responsible adult of watching the party from the outside while I played risk. Correct. I mean, that's, that's a pretty nice summary of what it means to be a studio head. You have to be the adult in the room. And what you're saying here is that for the first time in the job, the talent worked on you. They worked the room and you fell for it.
8:22Michael Lynton:I think it was a combination. I think it was absolutely what you say. And it was also I had been in the job long enough that I'd grown a little bit weary of constantly being Dr. No, Mr. No, because that was the job in effect and trying to make sure that it was the responsible thing to do to make a movie. And you're right. It all went out the window in a moment.
8:43Matt Belloni:From Rogan's perspective and from the filmmaker's perspective, you were backing them. They had made you a lot of money. They had great creative and comedic instincts. They wanted to do this. And you work at an American studio. You should be able to satirize the leader of a fascist regime and not worry about your entire company being attacked. That would be the argument there. But you're saying that you did have those reservations.
9:16Michael Lynton:You know, they were a little bit in the back of my mind. I can't say they were at the forefront because I wasn't, you know, North Korea in that moment was in a very different place in the American public's eye than it is today. Primarily, I think, because Kim Jong-un was new in the job. His father had died a couple of years prior. But no, there was something, you know, needling me in the back. But in that moment, it just, you know, I responded.
9:42Matt Belloni:But then you say that within a week, I had come to my senses and recognized that this time the writers had gone too far with the subject matter. You then asked them to take out the assassination and tone it down. And Rogan, according to you, called you a coward and you relented. Yes, exactly right. Everyone's playing their role here. The filmmakers are doing their thing.
10:08Michael Lynton:It's totally fair what you're describing. I wrote it. It's exactly what happened. uh amy and i had a lot of conversations about it at the time i got i got queasy about the whole thing we did go to him and say listen would you take that part of it out he said no that's the whole point if we don't have that i'm not interested in making the movie we'd agreed to make the movie you know so we stood by our word and in his defense it it's not as funny if it's not kim jong-un i mean you got to admit that for sure not the question is if you have to send a
10:38Matt Belloni:missile and you know do what we did at the end of that picture it's funny that you you are so open about this because you this has never been revealed during the entirety of the hack no it was always that we made the movie we wanted to make and then we were attacked in an act of cyber terrorism right but you're now saying that for the first time that we actually tried to pull it back and reign it in and the filmmaker said no and we went along and backed the filmmaker we actually tried
11:09Michael Lynton:to reign it in twice we tried to reign it in at the beginning and then once the picture was shot and we put the trailer out and the north koreans started threatening us we tried it again and on both occasions the filmmaker stood by you know stood by the movie and we stood by the filmmakers
11:27Matt Belloni:but it's interesting to hear you now say that you you call that a big mistake i mean a lot of studio heads would say, I would do that again. I would back my filmmaker again. But you're not saying that.
11:39Michael Lynton:No, because I think in retrospect, you got to remember, I was working for a Japanese company, which has its own specific relationship with North Korea. Not a good one, I should add. It was probably, it was definitely not the responsible thing to do. So in retrospect, what we probably should have done is passed. And, you know, maybe Universal would have said yes.
11:59Matt Belloni:A very different hack. We'd be talking about Comcast emails. We would have been talking about Comcast.
12:03Michael Lynton:But I will say, once we did say yes, we stood by those guys. And we stood by them all the way through the process.
12:11Matt Belloni:You did ultimately get the movie released. Some theaters showed it, and you put it out via Google and Stripe. I remember this very well over the holidays, trying to watch it on streaming platforms and trying to figure out how to watch the movie.
12:27Michael Lynton:can you believe that 10 years ago there wasn't streaming platforms or not the way we know them now yes exactly i know there wasn't a way to get it out now it would be on youtube in like two days
12:37Matt Belloni:yes for sure absolutely although you could have done that at the time but obviously there wasn't the mechanisms to set up payment and all these other things no none of it it's funny because you you obviously you have a lot of animosity towards some of the journalists that were covering this at the time i remember you and i having some conversations about that and what we were covering and we were at holly deporter we were pretty tame in terms of what we were covering yeah in the stolen emails some outlets were going really really far and you know publishing very private things about the people and yeah you know we've sort of focused on the business stuff but but you say in the book that you are you still have some animosity towards a lot of those journalists and you have animosity towards rogan still where you don't think he was apologetic enough for the support that you showed him?
13:27Michael Lynton:Well, no. So let me qualify both. So on the journalism side, you're a hundred percent right. These were stolen emails and there was a lot of dumpster diving going on. And to your point, you're right. The Hollywood reporter did report on this with restraint and they, and they talked about the business side of things. A lot of other outlets did not, and they went deeply into personal matters of different people at the studio. And I was really disappointed in that, in the journalists. On Seth, my disappointment was not that he wasn't apologetic enough, but that he never acknowledged the fact that all of these folks at Sony had, you know, they were made incredibly uncomfortable.
14:09Michael Lynton:A lot of their personal information was revealed. They had a really tough time of it. And I would have hoped that he would have thanked them at a very minimum, you know, in some way, shape or form. But he didn't. He shows not to. He was also caught up in all of this. I'm sure he had other. Yeah, pretty traumatic, I imagine. Absolutely. And he and I never spoke about it afterwards. So I'm sure he's got his side of things as well.
14:31Matt Belloni:Well, he's done interviews in the past where he said that he's not even sure it was the North Koreans. He said a couple of years ago. I mean, are you 100 % positive it was them?
14:41Michael Lynton:You know, when the NSA and the federal government tells me it's the North Koreans, I don't have a better source than that. So, yes, I think, you know, yes, I would argue it's 100 % the North Koreans. Snoring? Gasping during sleep? Feeling fatigued? Wake up to ZepBound Terzepatide, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Z-Bound is an injectable prescription medicine that may help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Z-Bound should be used with a reduced-calorie diet and increased physical activity.
15:17Michael Lynton:Z-Bound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Z-Bound contains terzepatide and should not be used with other terzepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Z-Bound is safe and effective for use in children. Do not share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take ZEPBound if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop ZEPBound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction.
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Read the full transcript
17:00Michael Lynton:Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions.
17:05Matt Belloni:I want to get into this psychological thing that happened to you, you write about, and how you were swayed by the talent and Rogan and Franco are lighting a joint and having a great table read and everybody's getting caught up in the moment. Isn't that kind of the history of Hollywood that the, the, you know, the agencies I know try to set up these situations where the talent can prove to the suits, your term, that this is a project they should get involved in. You know, the history of Sundance is getting the right crowd into that premiere screening. So the executives feel like there's momentum and juice in the room.
17:47Matt Belloni:I mean, is it so bad that you would be caught up in emotion and decide to make a movie that you later say, oh, maybe that wasn't as smart of a decision as I should have made.
18:00Michael Lynton:You're 100 % right that that is sort of the modus operandi for a lot of folks. And you're right that talent can be incredibly seductive. The reason most studios, in fact, all studios, I would think, certainly Sony at the time had a whole and today has a whole process in place to prevent that from happening, in pardon for that reason, right? You want to get out of that room. You want to get back. That was Amy's job. Yes. And you want to get back in the room with some sober thinking people who have a, you know, a couple of financial statements in front of them and some other people there who, so you can make a rational decision.
18:36Michael Lynton:But the, what the book tries to do, cause it's talking about mistakes and why people make mistakes is what is the emotion that's coming to the fore in those moments and where is it coming from? And it turns out it comes from a place, in most instances, way in your past, where you form a certain way of seeing the world, and that gets triggered in that moment.
18:58Matt Belloni:So what about your past led you to that moment that caused you to want to hang with the cool kids and greenlight the assassination movie?
19:06Michael Lynton:So what I write in the book is, at a very young age, I was moved from the United States to Holland, where I didn't speak the language. I was sort of thrown into the middle of things, my sister and I, and I, I was extremely lonely for a long period. And it sort of engendered in me a desire to be part of a crowd, you know, part of the cool kids, so to speak, because I was sitting by myself a lot of the time and I never really lost that. And in that moment, it sort of came, it rose up and got me motivated to make that decision. I certainly didn't realize it at the time. It's funny because the character that Seth Rogen plays on the studio is kind of similar to what Michael is describing he was going through at Sony trying to fit in with the cool actors.
19:51Michael Lynton:That is the character that Seth is playing on the studio a little bit. That is funny. I've only watched an episode and a half of that show, but you're right. The little bit I saw of it, he definitely plays that role.
20:02Matt Belloni:Yeah. And it's actually kind of a running joke in an episode about the talent charming him and trying to get things out of him. You know, Greta Lee is trying to get the private plane to a premiere and someone else is trying to get the movie greenlit. It's like everybody, you know, as a studio head, everybody wants things out of you and they're going to use whatever charms they have to try to get it. It seems like that's kind of part of the job.
20:30Michael Lynton:A hundred percent. And, you know, that's why you wind up saying no most of the time. Yeah. And why you don't go to the table read. and why you do not go to the table read. If it weren't set up like this in a competitive situation where we had to make a decision in the moment, I never would have been in that room, ever. I never went to table reads.
20:49Matt Belloni:And it wasn't a financial decision. I'm sure the interview looked great on paper. I mean, the movie - It was this other thing that was hovering over it that ended up becoming the problem.
21:00Michael Lynton:Exactly, exactly. No, from a financial standpoint, given Seth's track record and given what that movie cost, It was an easy decision, frankly.
21:08Matt Belloni:You describe in the book how you define mistakes differently from failures. Yeah. Can you explain that for us?
21:15Michael Lynton:Mistakes, and this is an interesting one to look at, failures are when people come together and in a very methodical way, come to a decision that has ambition, like something big should happen. And then for whatever reason, it doesn't work. Mistakes are when a single individual, and in this case, despite the fact that there were a lot of people in that room, I was the person, I was the only person who was holding out for a decision. When one individual who's pretty emotionally charged makes the decision in the moment and bad things happen as a result. And that's exactly what happened here. And everybody, everybody makes mistakes and we make them all day long.
21:58Michael Lynton:It turns out not that many people actually have the opportunity to make, have failures.
22:02Matt Belloni:You would describe the Sony hack and what led to it as a mistake or a failure?
22:07Michael Lynton:I would describe it as my mistake. My mistake that I made in that moment. Yeah. And nothing good for that. I can honestly say that.
22:17Matt Belloni:By the way, the emails are still online. You can still go and search those emails. How is that possible?
22:22Michael Lynton:Well, I mean, in the middle of all this, we forget the cast of characters. You probably don't because you were around then. Julian Assange. Julian Assange. He was holed up in the Ecuadorian embassy in London, and he decided that he would wiki all of my emails to demonstrate to the world what a U.S. executive's correspondence looked like. Wow, what a guy. You know? What a guy. What a guy. I have to thank you.
22:49Matt Belloni:Do you still have a little bit of animosity towards the people that didn't speak up in Sony's defense? I mean, at the time, the mayor of L.A. wasn't in your corner. The MPAA that you paid$20 million a year in dues to didn't do anything for you guys. The president, Obama, kind of threw you under the bus at that press conference that was famously covered and you write about. There was not a lot of voices in your corner.
23:15Michael Lynton:No. Well, in fairness to President Obama, he was caught in the moment, as I describe in the piece, and he subsequently called me and apologized for it. So I don't blame him. But you're right. You know, I and I write this in the book in a previous life. I'd been in publishing and I'd gotten to Penguin Books a few years after the Satanic Verses were published. And there the whole publishing community came around Penguin and the bookstore owners were supportive. In this case, nobody, you know, not nobody from the studio world. As you point out, the MPAA wasn't there. There was only one voice that was public on the subject, and that was George Clooney.
23:52Michael Lynton:And he was incredibly good. He was courageous. He came forward. He spoke his mind. And I'm very indebted to him. Why didn't anyone else? Were they afraid? They were. They were. I mean, by way of example. So if you think about it, for Satanic Verses, every bookstore in America carried that book. When I went around, when the theater owners finally said they wouldn't carry it, I started calling Facebook, Netflix, you name it, because there were places to get it out. Everybody was worried they would get hacked. Same with the studios. When I started asking around, like, why aren't you guys coming forward and helping out?
24:25Michael Lynton:Same thing. Everybody was worried about getting hacked. So they, you know, that the North Koreans might turn on them. So there wasn't anybody out there supporting us. It was really disappointing. You fear that they're still out there and you're
24:38Matt Belloni:now talking about this again?
24:39Michael Lynton:No, I don't worry about that. Not lately. I had no plan. I imagine that you put a lot less in email these days. I never put that much in the first place, but I certainly don't put much there now. That's for certain. Yeah. That's for certain.
24:50Matt Belloni:All right. So I want to talk a little bit about the state of the business since I've got you on the show. It almost feels like you got out at the exact right time in 2017. Does the Hollywood that is going through what it's going through right now, does it bear any resemblance to the Hollywood that you left in 2017 in your mind?
25:11Michael Lynton:Yeah, no. I mean, a lot of the same people are there and a lot of the same companies are there for sure. But overall, it's radically different. You know, it's as you know, the streamers have upended everything at this point. And you combine that with where the state of affairs is as far as Los Angeles is concerned. And it's pretty unrecognizable to me. When I go back to L.A., which I just did in the fall for a period because we sold our house there finally, I was I was really surprised by how the city has been affected. I really was.
25:43Matt Belloni:How so? I mean... Just the lack of activity? Yeah, there's nothing going on.
25:48Michael Lynton:I think the city's in danger of becoming the sunny version of Detroit.
25:51Matt Belloni:I was slightly stunned. And that's just because of the flight of production and the downturn in content production and all of it? Exactly.
26:00Michael Lynton:You know, I went to a couple of studios because I had time on my hands for lunch. People asked me over. There was nothing being shot. It was like going into one of those, not that I did it at the time, but going around a factory, I can imagine in Michigan in the 80s. You know, it was really something.
26:17Matt Belloni:What would you do about that?
26:18Michael Lynton:What would I do about it? I mean, I think -
26:20Matt Belloni:And not to put you on the spot and ask you to solve massive problems.
26:24Michael Lynton:I don't know enough at this point to understand what economics would bring movies back, but I do think at this point, the industry needs some real incentives that are based in Los Angeles to return production there.
26:37Matt Belloni:Interesting. You know, Sony went after Paramount when that was for sale. The Ellisons got it. Now the Ellisons are going after Warner Brothers, as is Netflix, which has a deal. What's your perspective on that situation and how it might play out?
26:52Michael Lynton:You know what? I know enough from having been in some of those rooms, because I was part of that consortium that bought MGM, to know that if you're not in the room, you really don't know what's going on. I know what you know, Matt, which is I'm reading it in the papers. It appears right now that Paramount has an opening, but I have no idea where that comes out. I'm sure people have a better understanding of it than I do.
27:15Matt Belloni:It's an interesting perch from Snap, looking at this 100-year-old film and television business and where it is right now compared to where the digital players are right now. It is. Is it more exciting than your old job? Is what more exciting? Is being part of a digital player like Snap with a growth trajectory and looking at the next 50 years of content versus a film and television studio that maybe has seen its best days behind it?
27:50Michael Lynton:No, no. Both were really fun and both are really interesting. I think the reason why it's so dramatic what's going on in Hollywood at the moment is if you think about it, you mentioned 100 years. Those six or seven players that were there or six players, they were pretty much there until about 15 years ago, 10 years ago, without anything happening to me. If you look at it, it's probably the most stable industry in the history of American business. The same folks have been around for 100 years. And finally, now it's shifting through consolidation and everything else. Different owners. And the internet.
28:23Michael Lynton:And the internet. And the internet. Absolutely. That changed it all.
28:27Matt Belloni:All right. So back to your book for my final question. What do you want people to take away from this? If people in the industry are looking at your experience and what you wrote in your book, what's the lesson from making mistakes and how you have dealt with them in your life?
28:44Michael Lynton:Well, I mean, I'm not sure I would deal with them in the way that I used to deal with them. Let's focus on maybe how I'm dealing with it in this instance. Okay. Since that piece that just came out, there's an excerpt in the Wall Street Journal. I've gotten a bunch of people who still remember me reaching out from Los Angeles and think, wow, you're really honest. I made mistakes like that, too. I'm not sure that I would be that honest. And as I mentioned earlier in the conversation, it's been really helpful to me. The point to the book is exactly that. The point to the book is really to not avert your eyes, to really try and understand what it is that caused you to make the mistake in the first place, and then equally to try and deal with, in an honest way, the ramifications of the mistake, not to sort of bury it and stick it in a drawer.
29:30And I think, you know, we all make mistakes.
29:33Michael Lynton:I dare say in Hollywood, we make a lot of mistakes all the time because you're making decisions on your own. And a lot of those things are filled with emotion. I think the town would benefit from reading the book and dealing with them with mistakes differently. I know I did.
29:47Matt Belloni:Well, the other lesson is stay away from charming and charismatic movie stars.
29:51Michael Lynton:That is always true. That is always true. That's a true statement. All right. Well, Michael, thanks for coming on the show. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. I'll talk to you soon.
30:02Matt Belloni:We are back with the call sheet. Craig, have you been to any of these Timothee Chalamet career retrospective events that are going on in LA? No, but I did see that he was at my local pizza shop recently. So he was, I just missed him strategically dining out in Brentwood to reach the Oscar voters that are deciding on his fate right now.
30:20Michael Lynton:No, is he the youngest actor ever to do a career retrospective?
30:24Matt Belloni:I mean, it's ridiculous. The fact that they're doing this, But if you know the Oscar race and how it works, very difficult for a young actor to win Best Actor. The Academy loves to vote young actresses for Best Actress, but it's very difficult. He would be the youngest winner in, I think, you know, 30-something years to win.
30:45Michael Lynton:He'd be the second youngest ever, I believe, behind Adrian Brody.
30:48Matt Belloni:Yes. So what is his campaign doing? They're like, oh, we're going to show everybody that he does have a body of work, that he has worked with amazing filmmakers. He might be 30, but he's got Chris Nolan. He worked on Interstellar. He's got Denis Villeneuve with the Dune movies. He's got Luca Guadagnino with Call Me By Your Name. I mean, he's got these filmmakers. He's got Greta Gerwig twice. Greta Gerwig, amazing. They're doing this, and it's an extremely smart campaign move. Leo has, you know, the body of work and the history with the Academy, and that was their weakness. And now they are showing the Academy that it's okay to vote for Timmy because he has put in his dues.
31:29Matt Belloni:And this is causing me to change my tide on this. I am going to now switch. I was very much in the Leo camp, despite the odds, despite the momentum for Timmy. I thought that Leo would win the SAG and that Leo would win the BAFTA and ultimately win the Oscar. I'm changing that. I'm going, the Timmy campaign has been too good. I'm changing my vote to Chalamet.
31:52Michael Lynton:I mean, he's a heavy favorite now. If you look at all the gambling odds, he's basically a four to one favorite. So not exactly a hot take, but maybe those odds are going to get even worse. You should get your money in now.
32:01Matt Belloni:I'm not saying that I'm going out on a limb here, but I was officially telling people that I thought Leo would be an upset winner. And now you're convinced. And I'm no longer doing that.
32:09Michael Lynton:I think it's helped Timmy. This is his third Best Actor nomination. And I think it helped that he had another one last year. because it almost feels like, yeah, like it's a little more earned, like it's not out of the blue that he just had one that he didn't win for. And people thought he had a chance. And so now that this is happening again, I do think there's a little bit of, it's easy to come around to the fact that he deserves it this time because he just lost last year.
32:32Matt Belloni:Yeah. And these are all about endorsements. When you trot out a Chris Nolan or a Denis Villeneuve, this is a mark of acceptance that this guy is one of us and we are putting our stamp of approval on him and on you for voting for him. And there's a long history of - Why isn't Leo doing this? He, I mean, he has done stuff. He's popped up at different things, but he doesn't need to. What do we need? Do we need, you know, Martin Scorsese to show up and be like, yeah, I love working with Leo. I mean, sure, it would help, but he doesn't do - And also, Leo's already won an Oscar. So he's going to do what he needs to do to, like, help the film win Best Picture.
33:11Matt Belloni:but if he doesn't win like okay whatever timmy so you think it's almost a sign of leo growing up it's a sign of maturity that he is not thirsting for the oscar i do it makes me kind of want him to win a little bit more but he doesn't need this and and i'm not saying he's not doing anything he's doing a lot for him actually yeah the fact that he's showing up these events and he's done some press and he's done screenings with different people but you don't see i mean he went to santa Barbara and did that whole rigmarole there. Timmy is really working it. And I think people respond to that kind of enthusiasm.
33:45Matt Belloni:You need to tell these voters that you want to win for them to feel like they should endorse you. And he's doing it. And I think it's going to work. All right. That's the show for today. I want to thank my guests, Michael Linton, producer Craig Horvath, our viewers, Jesse Lopez and John Jones. And I want to thank you. We'll see you next week.
34:05Thank you.
From the publisher
Matt is joined by Michael Lynton, former head of Sony Pictures and current chairman of Snap Inc., to open up about his regrets greenlighting the movie ‘The Interview,' which ultimately led to the infamous Sony hack. Michael walks us through the unique scenario that led to him greenlighting the film, what he should have done differently, and highlights some of the challenges that come with dealing with A-list talent (00:00). Matt finishes the show with a prediction about the Best Actor race for this year's Academy Awards (26:55).
Host: Matt Belloni
Guest: Michael Lynton
Producers: Craig Horlbeck, Jessie Lopez, and Jon Jones
Theme Song: Devon Renaldo
ZOOTOPIA 2. FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION FOR BEST ANIMATED FEATURE.
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