Ana Kasparian: Epstein Cover-Up, Israel Strikes Gaza Church, & the Great American Political Shift

23:33Ana Kasparian:Okay. Because I want to keep a list of people who are offended by what you're saying just in my head. Like, how could anyone be offended by what you're saying now? Yeah. Well, it might not be. I mean, you're not the criminal here. Yeah. Well, let me just be honest with you. I think that most people who are going to attack me aren't even going to listen to this interview. It's just the fact that we're having a conversation with each other. But I take offense to people trying to police who I can talk to. In fact, the more they try to police me, the more I want to talk to the person they forbid me to speak to.

24:08Ana Kasparian:Honestly, I've always been like that. I've been like that since I was a kid. My mom knows it better than anyone. I'm just a little bit rebellious and I don't like to be told what to do. I hate it. And what to think. Yeah. And who you can talk to. I mean, that's like the most, that's a core decision. Who do I associate with? Yeah. Who are my friends? Who am I having dinner with? Who do I marry? I mean, if you allow other people to make those decisions for you, you're not free. No, you're not. And oh my God, what a terrible career path to be a journalist who doesn't get to have conversations with people that they're curious.

24:45Ana Kasparian:I'm curious about you. I am. You were a neocon. Yeah, I was. It's hard to believe that. It is hard to believe that. I became politicized in the lead up to the Iraq invasion in 2003. Yes. I was in high school and I remember in 2002, I went to like a hippie magnet school and we had peace day annually. And I remember giving a speech in 2002 to make the case against the preemptive war in Iraq. And I remember, you're going to laugh at this. I remember in English class, we were reading a play, The Glass Menagerie, which I found deeply boring. And I had like, yeah, I had a cutout of a New York Times article in which Bill Crystal was one of the people the reporter interviewed.

25:31Ana Kasparian:And, you know, Bill Crystal loves war, loves war. Hardcore neocon. And I just remember like just sitting in that English class, reading his quotes and seething over it and thinking to myself, I can't wait to one day get an opportunity to like confront him. And I actually did get that opportunity. It wasn't about war, but it was a Politicon panel debate about health care. And, you know, I kind of brought up the fact that Israel has universal health care and Americans don't. What did he say? He was so unprepared. There's like a picture of him, like he has index cards, like someone wrote notes down for him and he's just like fumbling with the index cards.

26:11Ana Kasparian:He doesn't know what to do. And then once the whole panel discussion was over, someone who was with me overheard him say, damn it, she came prepared. Something along those lines. It's arrogance. It's people who've been told since they were small that they're brilliant. you know, Bill Kristol, Ted Cruz. I mean, it does distort you and it actually makes you dumb paradoxically over time. Definitely. Yeah, because you're never pressed. You've got to stay humble. I completely agree with that. It's not hard for me. You've probably heard about Eight Sleep. Lots of people are talking about it. It is a company with one mission, improving your sleep.

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28:36May I suggest your big wireless bill? It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat emotional arc and a shocking twist where you realize you've been overpaying the entire time. Fortunately though, Mint's story is better. Every plan,$15 a month. even unlimited. That's it. Happy ending. Zero tears. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12 month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. C terms. Okay. So you, I just wanted to emphasize that point.

29:07You would, you came to the conclusion that you were wrong and you said so out loud. Yeah. And to me, that's the acid test. Is someone honest? I don't know. Will that person admit it being wrong, that's when we know.

29:19Ana Kasparian:Yeah, totally. And okay, so you live in the same place. That's also hugely helpful because you can see it over time, the same place. True. You know, Ventura Boulevard, you've lived near it your whole life. Right. So what did you start to notice? Like, what is it like? What are the effects? Well, I started noticing that homelessness really exploded in Los Angeles. Like it's always been a problem in LA. Yeah. But it now touches every like square mile of that county. And it's just gotten, during COVID, it was unbelievably bad. And I just felt like it was inhumane seeing what was going on. And it wasn't just that there were a lot of homeless people.

30:03Ana Kasparian:It was that there were a lot of homeless people with like severe, severe like mental health issues. Yes. And they can't make decisions for themselves. They're like literally, I can't tell you how many times on my way to work on the freeway, I almost hit a mentally ill homeless person who's on the freeway. On 405? Yes, yes. And I can't imagine what I would go through for the rest of my life if I ever hit someone with my car, you know? But like, why are we living in a society that like thinks that this is okay? This is not okay. This is not okay. The drug addiction, not just in LA, all across the country.

30:42Ana Kasparian:Has there been any effort to do anything about this? Zero, zero. And it makes me really angry. The Sacklers are still billionaires. Yep, exactly. And it's just, I find it to be, you want to talk about treason. Politicians who let this kind of stuff happen to the Americans they're supposed to represent. And people mistake that as me being anti-homeless. No, no, the people who defend what's happening right now, they're anti-homeless. Seven people died of drug overdose on the same corner near where I live in a two-week span. Seven people, same corner. That wasn't a big scandal. The city council member who represents my district wasn't asked about it.

31:22Ana Kasparian:She didn't have to defend herself. She's one of these city council members who keeps voting on the dumbest policies that do nothing to actually help these people, but somehow justifies the continuation of the same failed policies that have led to all of these overdose deaths, all of these people with mental health issues not getting the health that they need. It's awful. The whole situation is awful. I mean, I lived in LA as a child. I've worked there on and off my whole life. I really love Los Angeles. I'll admit that. I just love it. It's just in a truly American city. The architecture is - It's beautiful.

31:58Unique to LA or was. It's just an amazing, it's what an ambitious, hopeful, affluent country builds when they get to the end of the continent.

32:07Ana Kasparian:Yeah. You know, it's like, wow, there's nowhere else to let's build something amazing. And they built Los Angeles. And I just, I've always loved it in my heart. So I go back there. I'm going back next month. And I'm shocked by it. Like, I can't even believe it. The encampment outside the veterans building in Brentwood. I'm like, what is going on here? And no one ever says anything. Well, but I don't live there. You tell me. Do people talk about this a lot? They talk about it privately, but it's really interesting because while there's this openness in regard to the failed policies in private discussions, no one wants to say anything publicly because you'll get the kind of treatment I've gotten.

32:45The people are dying on the street. Seven people at one intersection. Seven people, Americans. And that's like verboten to talk about? How? Why?

32:55Ana Kasparian:Oh, you're stigmatizing your unhoused neighbors. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that statement. You're stigmatizing your unhappiness. It's like, no. They're dead. And I feel bad about it. I'm stigmatizing the very politicians who think that this situation is okay. The same politicians who took our tax dollars,$24 billion worth of California's taxpayer money, okay, squandered it by funneling it to these NGOs and nonprofits that are run by their friends. Oh, of course. They fattened up their pockets. They didn't do anything to actually help those people. Nothing. So when you say that at dinner, what's that like?

33:34Ana Kasparian:I mean, again, I don't have dinner with idiots, okay? So I'm not going to have dinner with someone who's like, no, I think we should keep stealing money from taxpayers in the highest tax state in the country. I'm not interested in that. But when I do have dinner with my friends or with, you know, acquaintances or even like people that I just met, but, you know, for whatever reason, our paths crossed and we're having dinner. They all agree with me. Most people agree with me. And I don't think what I'm saying is at all offensive, which is why I keep saying it. I'm not going to stop saying it just because some idiots are going to try to smear me for doing it.

34:12Ana Kasparian:No, I don't care. These issues go way beyond me. You get what I'm saying? Well, not only is it not offensive, it's pro-life in the truest sense. It's pro-human dignity. You don't want seven people to die in an intersection. You're shocked and horrified and saddened by it. That's not shameful. That's evidence of decency and compassion. I don't understand how that just got inverted. You know, I don't want to go back to the days where we were criminalizing people who were suffering from drug addiction. Right. But what we're doing now is, I think, far worse. Oh, of course it is. You know, because at least if someone was using publicly, which, by the way, right now happens all the time, You see people, it's really devastating.

34:59Ana Kasparian:Like you see people smoking meth publicly. You see people, oh yeah, oh yeah. You see, do you know what the fentolin is? Yeah, I've seen it. Yeah, it's all over Ventura Boulevard at night. And it's, I don't know. Will you describe it for people who don't know what you're talking about? It's basically fentanyl. I guess it does something to your body where after you take it, like if you see someone who's literally standing, but they're like hunched over, like folded over. Like a scarecrow. Exactly. They're on fentanyl. That's what fentanyl does to their body. And I never saw that once until recently.

35:35Ana Kasparian:And now it's just all over Ventura Boulevard in the San Fernando Valley at night specifically. You don't see it in the daytime. And it's the most heartbreaking thing ever. These people are, they're dying. Very likely they're going to die. That's someone's child. Yeah, yeah. And no one cares. No one cares. I can't tell you how many times people just kind of like, you'll see videos of this online. People will have to walk over a guy who looks like he might be dead sleeping on the sidewalk. You know, like it's, it's made us almost numb because it's so, it's so much of our lives now. Like it's, it's a regular occurrence.

36:19Ana Kasparian:So when it's a regular occurrence, it becomes normalized. It degrades everyone. Exactly. And I'm worried that since it's so normalized, nothing's going to be done about it. And I just find it immoral. And I find that it's wrong. And I'm disgusted with our politicians. I don't think I could have put it better. Every word you said, I agree with passionately. And I don't know how this wound up a partisan issue at all. And it's... I think it's because it's the Trump era. Yeah. Trump offends the sensitivities and sensibilities of self-identified liberal Democrats so much that they think they have to like automatically take the opposite stance of what a conservative would say or what a Trump supporter would say.

37:05Ana Kasparian:But that's why I want people to start talking again and not make Donald Trump like the nucleus of our politics. Because I think that, you know, again, on a lot of the important issues, there's a lot of agreement among voters. They just have to allow themselves to think for themselves. I would say the most important issues. I mean, if you've got seven people dying in one intersection in Los Angeles, you're not going to tell me that Iran is a greater threat to my country than that. Exactly. I can't think of a greater threat to my country than that, actually. And so, and I don't have any idea why that's partisan.

37:43I'm interested in the governor. I know the governor of the state. He's got some, I know Gavin Newsom. He's got some talent, I think, and charming for sure. But like, what is going on? Is he aware of that? I've asked him and I -

37:59Ana Kasparian:You really find him charming? Well, in a kind of reptilian way. I mean, charming in the sense that his whole life is devoted to winning people over. Yes. Kind of like Bill Clinton was. And I think he's good at it. But I also think, someone said to me the other day, Newsom could pass a lie detector test on saying anything. Like there's a coldness inside that allows - He's a sociopath. I think he's a snake oil salesman. I think he's a liar. And I think that he destroyed the state of California. Full stop. I've got no love for Gavin Newsom. I think that people tend to fall for appearances. And he's, for whatever reason, people think that he's attractive or something.

38:45Ana Kasparian:I don't find him attractive because I know who he is and what he's done. He has shafted Californians who have lost everything in wildfires. The fire in Paradise, California was absolutely devastating. An entire community burnt down as the result of PG &E, Pacific Gas and Electric, that's the utility company, refusing to upgrade their aging equipment. Their equipment is over 100 years old. And so what started that fire was this metal hook that had eroded to the point where it broke. Power lines come crashing down onto dry brush. it sparks a fire and destroys an entire community okay so you would want pg and e to suffer some consequences for that right thank you well newsom bailed him out because it's one of his uh biggest donors he recently in an interview i can't remember he's been doing these like podcast interviews to kind of rebrand himself as like some sort of common sense guy i've turned it down yeah don't fall for it because it's total bs but you know he said something along the lines of oh, you know, I take personal accountability.

39:56Ana Kasparian:I made a big mistake by getting caught. You know, I was at the French laundry. It's like some ritzy, fancy restaurant. During COVID, after I told Californians, you know, don't get together with family members during the holidays. It's very dangerous, whatever. He said that he was having dinner with friends. It was his friend's birthday. No, no, no. He was having dinner with his donors. So even in the context where he's pretending to take accountability, he's lying straight to everyone's face. And I can't stand it. I really can't. I want real authenticity. I want real accountability. I want politicians who are willing to see that the policies they advocated for aren't working quite as they intended.

40:40Ana Kasparian:And they're willing to recalibrate, admit that maybe they got something wrong. Of course. I want humility. I want this country to improve for the people in this country. and unless we are willing to be honest, unless we're willing to tell the people trying to smear us to silence us that they can F off, nothing's going to improve. Everything's going to keep going down. Everything is going to continue devolving. In my lifetime, this country has only gotten worse, not better. And it's going to keep going in that direction and I want that paradigm to shift. I want it to change. Why do people disagree with that, do you think?

41:17Ana Kasparian:I don't know. I think there's something psychological about it. I think that we've been conditioned to think of politics as black and white, good and bad. But I think it's more complicated than that. I think most Americans are good people who want good things for everyone. But I think the media kind of conditions us to hate the other side, whatever the other side really is. I certainly had those feelings. And things are different today compared to when I became politicized during the Bush era. Yes. I feel like during the Bush era, it was a little easier to see good and bad, right? So for instance, even among Republican voters, I think people had woken up to the fact that the neoconservatives had dragged us into wars that we shouldn't have been fighting.

42:12Ana Kasparian:that a lot of people, Americans and civilians in these countries who were invading, were suffering as a result of this ideology. But things have gotten a little more fractured. I think within the parties, there's like multiple parties. You get what I'm saying? I do. But when it comes to the two establishments, the Democratic establishment, the Republican establishment, there's a lot of similarities between the two. They're in alignment. Exactly. On the big issues that matter. War and the economy. War and the economy. The biggest issues. 100%. They love to distract us with shiny things. Yeah, have a race war.

42:47It's totally fine. 100%.

42:48Ana Kasparian:All these social issues. By the way, social issues are important. I'm not minimizing them. But the way that they're framed by the establishment, I think is interesting because it's intentionally meant to get us to fight each other constantly. Of course. Instead of considering what the big issues are and how we might actually agree on those big issues, what we can do to work together to, again, apply pressure to politicians to demand that they represent us instead of their donors, instead of moneyed interests, instead of a foreign government. So I think people are waking up for the first time. I'm a little bit excited because, you know, the kind of speech that you gave wouldn't have happened five years ago, 10 years ago.

43:32No, I think that's right. And I wouldn't have, though, I'm just struck by how normal and non-threatening and non-hateful and just basic most people's views are, including mine. I don't have any complicated views about anything. I'm not a very deep person at all. and I don't know why we've all internalized this shame that like some things must not be said and it's like why I don't I don't hate anybody and in fact I'm on guard against that I refuse to because of my religious beliefs it's like I'm not hating anybody period but I'm also not going to be shamed into like ignoring obvious stuff none of us is paying very close attention during the summer the news cycle calms down families travel people relaxed you're at the beach it's all great except the people in Washington never stop.

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46:25Ana Kasparian:Can I ask you something about real quick? So I heard that speech and by the time I finished listening to it, I thought to myself, he's going to run for president. That was a presidential speech. Really? Yeah. No, that's literally the last thing on my mind. Really? Like I would never do that. No, I mean, unless I was like told to buy a higher power or something, but no, I don't think I'm suited for that. I, of course, I don't want that. I have a lot of happiness and balance in my life. I have a huge family. I'm the oldest male in that family. So I feel like I have a lot of things I'm paying attention to.

47:04I have dogs who I really love. So no, like nothing about that is appealing at all. and I would never, I've never had any political ambition of any kind and I have even less now. I mean, I've known a lot of people who've had that job and it's just, it's really hard.

47:20Ana Kasparian:Oh, I would never want it. I would never want it. Are you kidding me? No. And also the idea that like kind of 350 million people, I'm the most qualified to lead. Well, there's plenty of people who think that. I don't think that. Yeah. And I mean, think that about themselves. I do not think that. Yeah. Like Ted Cruz thinks that. Yeah. Well, exactly. Yeah. And it's just sad and they're compensating for something. Some of them, I guess, I'm not only mean, but I don't, I'm not compensating for anything. So I have no interest, but here's my question. So you said the media are a huge part of this, which is undoubtedly true.

47:51I've been in the media for 35 years. I know everyone in the media pretty much. There are some, mostly they're not evil. They're just kind of dumb, okay? There are some evil people I could name them, like Joe Scarborough or something, you know, it was like obviously really bad, but most people are not. but they go along with this and the question is why and one of the reasons is because they don't want to alienate their audiences you've been you are on one of the biggest maybe the biggest certainly one of the biggest liberal podcast progressive podcast the young turks you've been there for almost 20 years i was amazed to find that out last night at dinner yeah 18 years 18 years i don't know how old you are but i was shocked by that but and it's one of the biggest and you are one of the biggest and maybe our audience doesn't know this because they don't watch liberal podcasts, but you're one of the biggest.

48:37So you start saying stuff like this, you're going to lose audience, you're going to lose money, like actual money. Yep. Has that happened? Do you worry about that happening?

48:48Ana Kasparian:Yeah, that's happened. Let me just say that for whatever anyone might think about Cenk Uygur, who's the founder and CEO of the Young Turks, he's a very... like he's sometimes brash, combative, loud, and that turns people off. And I get that. They might not agree with his politics, but I just want to talk about who he is as a person. Because if it weren't for Cenk, I wouldn't have the confidence to publicly admit I'm wrong or the confidence to be genuine and honest about what I really think. Because he provides a platform for you to actually say what you think and not get punished for it if it hurts the business.

49:27Ana Kasparian:and it did hurt the business. Wow. Yeah. So we lost a portion of our audience for sure. Based on what you said? Based on what I said. And more importantly - What did you say that alienated people? I mean, okay, I would say that the straw that broke the camel's back was, I agreed to go talk to Glenn Beck. He invited me to go on his podcast. You know, I obviously have disagreements with Glenn Beck, but I was actually shocked at how much we agreed on, We talked about war. We talked about all sorts of things. And there were areas of agreement. It was a pleasant conversation, but I didn't capitulate my values at all.

50:07Ana Kasparian:Just because I'm talking to him doesn't mean I've done anything wrong. My views are my views. His views are his views. We had a conversation. Well, I come home thinking nothing of it. And one of our employees, someone who's a contributor to TYT or was a contributor to TYT, decided to take that as an opportunity to make a big spectacle about the fact that he's quitting. Because I decided to speak to Glenn Beck, who's like a threat to black bodies or something. I don't know. But he just it was. Is Glenn Beck a threat to black bodies? I have no idea. Is he? I mean, I didn't get that. I don't think Glenn Beck's much of a threat to anyone, to be honest with you.

50:44Ana Kasparian:He might have some ideas people don't like, but okay. But it was nothing that you specifically said. It wasn't like... No, nothing. Nothing that I said. I mean, no one was citing anything I said during that interview that upset them, that was so offensive that it was worthy of publicly condemning me and making a big spectacle about how I can't work here because of Anna. And she spoke to this dangerous, dangerous man. Did Beck say anything like so over the top that you were supposed to respond to it or something? No, I know. I mean, Glenn Beck. It's a pretty moderate guy. I mean, I don't I mean, he might have some views that aren't moderate, but we didn't talk about any of those things.

51:23Like the conversation was really not offensive at all, in my opinion. And but they didn't cite anything. He didn't endorse Hitler or anything.

51:33Ana Kasparian:It was just the fact that I spoke to him. But, you know, unfortunately, you know, when you have someone make a public spectacle about quitting and making it seem as though I had done something so wrong, it signaled to a portion of our audience like, oh, maybe Anna isn't who she says she is. Maybe Anna is like a secret, like far right winger or Nazi or I don't know. How long had you been at the show at this point? 17 and a half years. It wasn't that deep cover. So you've been a secret Nazi for 17 and a half years. Yeah, I'm really good at what I do. You're playing the long game, baby. Yeah, yeah.

52:09I'm sorry to laugh.

52:10Ana Kasparian:Let me just say this. I started working, as you mentioned, I've been there for 18 years. Started working there in 2007, okay? When TYT was basically a startup that no one knew about, the revenue for TYT at the time came from Air America. Air America had gone bankrupt a few months after I started working for them. and Cenk Uygur is amazing because he's like, I'm going to make it work. I'm going to find a way to keep this company afloat. And he did, to his credit. But I can't even explain to you how much of a grind it was building TYT. It was a grind, long hours, like blood, sweat and tears, but we believed in it and we loved it.

52:53Ana Kasparian:And I actually have like great memories of those years. We barely made any money at all, but we believed in what we were doing and there was something really exciting about that. I went through all that. I helped build what TYT is today. And the audacity, the audacity of anyone coming in as a contributor or anything else to tell me who I can and can't talk to, that's offensive. That's offensive. Okay, I earned this. You're not going to come into my house and tell me what my beliefs should be, who I should talk to, F off. Good, good, good riddance. Go, go. I'm not going to be censored by anyone.

53:38Ana Kasparian:Not my audience, no one on the right. I don't care. I don't care. So sometimes when people sell products on TV, I love this product, I use this product. There's the question in the mind of the viewer, does this guy really use the product? Does he really love the product? Would he keep the product at home? Ask my dogs. Yes. Now we are in a garage. I'm not going to tell you where it is because, again, this is prepping. But this is my garage. There's a gun safe. And this is a part of my stockpile of Ready Hour. Completely real. The second I put it here, the second Ready Hour sent it to me, I felt peace of mind.

54:15Because no matter what happens, we're not going hungry in my house. I moved a lot of fishing gear out of the way to keep it in my garage. And ever since it's been here, I have felt the peace of mind that comes from knowing my family's not going hungry no matter what. Lastcountrysupply.com. Lastcountrysupply.com. It can be in your garage along with the peace of mind that comes with having it. I have a nephew who loves you, and he's always, Uncle Tucker, you've got to interview this chick. She's amazing. And I'm so glad. Sorry, excuse me. It just makes me laugh. I mean, I just love what you're saying, of course.

54:48But you also are making a point about the guy you work with, who started the company, who owns the company, who even after some of your audience bolted over this, he didn't call you in and say, knock it off?

55:02Ana Kasparian:No, never, never. That's not who Cenk is. And by the way, I mean, he's had hosts on our network who he vehemently disagrees with. And he's had other hosts come in and demand that those hosts get fired because of what they're saying. oh it's offensive and jenks like no we don't do that here and i think what informs jenks behavior honestly is the fact that at one time he was a self-identified republican this is when he was in college and stuff yes and he and i have like a lot of these heart-to-hearts because i have these days when i am down about everything that's transpired because i do feel like it's unfair to paint me in a certain light just because you don't like the people I'm talking to.

55:46Ana Kasparian:But whenever I need like a little bit of a pep talk, he'll mention what it was like as a college Republican. And he's like, Anna, it was unbearable because they wouldn't let me talk in class. Like they would do everything possible to prevent me from being able to speak. Who's they? Like other students or professors who didn't like his point of view. Okay, liberals. Liberals, yeah. Yeah. So, and that really, really frustrated him. And so now as the CEO of the Young Turks, he's not going to turn around and censor other hosts because he disagrees with them. A lot of people do though. A lot of people do, but to his credit, he doesn't.

56:26Ana Kasparian:And that's why I've been there for 18 years. There've been other opportunities to make a, I love when people call me a grifter. I could have been a millionaire by now. I'm not a millionaire because I want to speak my mind and TYT has been the only place that's allowed me to do it. Good for you. Yeah. I don't think, I mean, most people don't host shows, so they don't know the feeling. I have hosted shows, so I do know the feeling. If your audience starts to move out from under you, boy, that is, because that's your strength, that's your core, that's your revenue, of course. But more than that, that's your moral backing.

56:59Like you, you know, they may not like what I'm saying, but my people do, my audience does. And so if they bolt in meaningful numbers, boy, there's nothing scarier. I mean, I get it.

57:09Ana Kasparian:Yeah, it is scary. I'm not going to lie about that. I mean, being scared didn't deter me, but I was more concerned about what it was going to do to the company overall. Because if things were bad enough and we didn't have enough revenue to keep every employee, people are going to get fired or laid off. And I would really struggle with the guilt. I would feel responsible for that. And so I'm glad that that didn't happen. And we're currently, we're rebuilding. And it's a dream come true for me because I want to build an audience of open-minded people who aren't going to like run for the hills the second they hear a point that they disagree with.

57:53Or that they haven't heard before.

57:54Ana Kasparian:Or that they haven't heard before, exactly, yeah. Because I think there's a lot of that where if you get past the initial shock, like you'll say something, be like, well, first of all, you're not allowed to say that. Second, I've never heard anybody say that. And I kind of hate you for saying something new. But I do think that wears off after a moment. And people are like, well, actually, is that crazy? Is that hateful? I don't think it is. And you can kind of convince them after that. You have a decision to make. You can either build a niche audience. And I think that's the worst option because a niche audience wants to be catered to.

58:28Ana Kasparian:And you have to be very careful to follow a very specific script. I'm not interested in that. And I think that I personally went through an era of being a little bit radicalized on the left. And I regret that because I unwittingly did build a bit of a niche audience. What do you mean radicalized? I totally bought the narrative that like everyone on the right is racist. Everyone on the right is greedy. That kind of stuff. So Trump term one. when everyone just got hysterical about Trump. Yes. Yeah, I get it. That was the era that I'm not proud of. And I was basically building my own prison and I didn't realize it.

59:12Ana Kasparian:And what I mean by that is once you have a niche audience, you're not allowed to deviate from a very specific and narrow ideology. And I don't want that. I'm not an ideologue. I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. I'm willing to recalibrate on policy if I see it implemented and it's not working correctly. I ultimately just want truth. I want justice. And I want a country that represents its people. That's what I want. That's my core. Do you feel like it is bridgeable? Like there's so much anger. Like, and by the way, I do think the immigration thing and the crime thing sort of obscure it. Like the real fight is between educated whites.

59:58Like they're the ones who really hate each other.

1:00:00Ana Kasparian:Really? I think that. Tell me more about that. Well, I think it's, I mean, I just know from my own experience, I often say this, but, you know, they called me a racist for many, many years. And I would always say, if I was racist, I would just admit it because like there are worse things, but I'm not. And I would get so hassled always by the same demographic. And I would always say to my wife, you know, every, no black person's ever yelled at me. In fact, I've been hugged by a lot of people. It's just a fact. I'm sorry. It's just true. And they don't seem to think I'm a racist, but it's always middle-aged white women who were yelling at me at Logan Airport.

1:00:40And like, what is that? No, I'm not whining. I mean, I don't really care, but it's just interesting. And so I think it's almost like fratricidal. It's like professional class whites who read The New Yorker, read The New York Times. like they're truly angry at each other.

1:01:00Ana Kasparian:Yeah, yeah. I don't know, I've just noticed this. Yeah, I mean, it's, I think it's just, it's propaganda and this thought that certain things are way worse than they really are or that like their perceived threats, I think aren't real to the extent that they think it's real. And by speaking out and by confronting you and by, you know, doing what you're referring to, I think they get a sense of, I'm doing something about it, you know? No, I get it. No, I'm not even attacking them. It's just interesting to me the, I mean, because it's totally real in their minds. It is, of course. It's not just performative.

1:01:40It's like, I felt rage before. So, and as you so eloquently described, like that rage obscures, and I think maybe it's designed to obscure the reality of like physical degradation all around us.

1:01:56Ana Kasparian:All around us. Yes. Yeah. And I think that is kind of the point. I think it is to some extent intentional. But since you do live in that world and have for so long, as rationally as you can, clinically as you can, can you explain what they're worried about? Well, I mean, I think... I think that their heart is in the right place. Yeah, yeah. I'm giving them the presumption of good faith, for sure. I just want to know, like, when some rich lady yells at me in the ski lift line, she thinks I'm racist. I know they always say that. But then there's also, like, there's a fascist takeover imminent. Is that part of it?

1:02:34Or what is the worry?

1:02:35Ana Kasparian:Well, I mean, okay, let's talk about the fascist takeover. Because there is a part of me that's a little bit worried about that, to be honest. I am too. Not just part of me. A lot of me. And look, I don't know what's in those women's heads. So I just don't understand them. So I feel weird talking about what they're thinking and what motivates them. Every person should be worried about the centralization of power and the use of technology to strip basic rights from citizens. Yeah. Everybody. Like the Palantir stuff concerns me a little bit. Anytime. Yeah. I mean, the technology, not just Palantir, but all the emerging technology, supercomputing, all of this stuff, facial recognition, like it could be used to enslave the population.

1:03:18Totally. Really easily. Totally.

1:03:19Ana Kasparian:Yeah. So I don't know why. I mean, everyone should be freaked out about that. Be worried about that. Definitely. I'm also a little bit worried about, and I don't know how large this group of people in America happens to be, but you're hearing from them more and more. this idea that no we we need to move toward a post liberal and like post liberal democracy you know what i'm saying like a rejection of the democratic process overall like curtis yarvin is one of the figures who's been kind of preaching about this he sounds really dumb so i don't know how seriously people really take him but he's he purports to want a monarchy in this country which sounds insane.

1:04:05Look, I'm opposed to monarchy. And the truth, however, is that the trends you're describing have totally discredited liberal democracy. That's my fear. And I think maybe it's intentional. Oh, for sure it's intentional. So chaotic that we beg for a dictator. I kind of feel like that's happening.

1:04:23Ana Kasparian:I hope people aren't begging for a dictator because you don't like the fact that the government isn't really representing your interests right now. Get a load of what it's going to be like to live under a dictator where you have no say at all. Right. No, no. I'm talking more about like quality of life questions. Like if there are home invasions going on and the homeowner doesn't have any expectation that cops are going to save him, that kind of stuff, that's not theoretical. That's like, that induces panic. True. Yeah. It makes me uncomfortable even thinking about it. You know? So if you have a lot more of that, people will be like, I don't really give a shit about voting.

1:04:56What I care about is my kids not being killed.

1:04:58Ana Kasparian:Yeah. Actually, you make a really good point, which is why it's so important for Americans who value liberal democracy to really start thinking seriously about saving it. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I want. But don't you feel like when people are under, like if you were on a plane flying across the Pacific that dropped 20 ,000 feet in a minute and you're saying your prayers, maybe you're an atheist, you're saying prayers anyway, couldn't control yourself and would what would you be willing to do or give up in exchange for not dying in other words if you're totally panicked you're in free fall in a commercial airliner god i will do anything like that's kind of what is happening with crime i think yeah yeah and not just crime not just crime yeah i mean so many issues it's it is a problem when most Americans agree on something and our politicians know it, but they do the opposite anyway.

1:05:58And I've been increasingly angry with the fact that, you know, I feel that the interests of

1:06:07Ana Kasparian:Americans and how they feel about going to war with Iran, for instance, right? Most Americans do not want to go to war with Iran and it didn't matter. Okay. The United States bombed Iran's nuclear sites on behalf of Israel anyway, which could have led to a full blown hot war. It didn't because of Iran having restraint. But we're not done yet. And so don't you feel ashamed that it didn't lead to nuclear war? This is the new line. You are wrong. You're an idiot. That's by the way, that line is stupid. Are you worried about that? Yeah, we're not. By the way, it's not over yet. And don't get too cocky for the people making that point.

1:06:45Ana Kasparian:Don't get too cocky. But why is it shameful to worry about a nuclear war or worry about a World War III. Why is that? It's being held up by the normal tiny brain people as like, you know, evidence that you're just a ridiculous person. Your prediction was wrong. Right, right. Well, I didn't have a nuclear war. Shut up. Well, maybe those folks have a point. Maybe we're the baddies, okay? Maybe we should be more concerned about profits for bomb makers and weapons manufacturers and private contractors and the mercenaries that are currently working over in Gaza to shoot and kill people as they're waiting for humanitarian aid.

1:07:24So how does that, it does feel like I've spent 35 years not talking about that topic because one, I don't really have on a native level, like super strong views about it. It's not my country. I wish everyone well in every country. And I mean that. However, forever, it just got so in my face that I had to like say four things about it for which I've been, you know, spent the rest of my life trying to deal with that, the effects of being called those names. But I feel like all of a sudden, like people you would not expect to weigh in on this, like, actually, this is too much.

1:07:55Ana Kasparian:Yeah. And I love it. I'm glad that that's happening. And I hope - Do you feel that there's been a change? I do feel it. I mean, definitely. If If it were the Bush years and this whole scenario were playing out during those years, the kinds of things I've been hearing people say publicly, I would not have heard. But I think what's happening this time around is you really can't deny what you're seeing on the ground in Gaza. You can't deny what's happening in the West Bank, not just in regard to Palestinians, Palestinian Muslims, but also Palestinian Christians. You can't deny the fact that that one and only Catholic church in Gaza was bombed, you know, was attacked.

1:08:37Ana Kasparian:You can't deny the fact that churches have been targeted in the West Bank as well. Like, it's, people can lie to us as much as they want, but the videos are out there. How do you blow up a church if you've got munitions, laser-guided munitions, that are so sophisticated that they can take out, you know, a guy in an SUV from 30 ,000 feet? How do you blow up a church with a giant cross on top of it? It was just an accident, Tucker. It was an accident. It's not the first church. No, it's not. And it wasn't an accident. It wasn't an accident. But what is the answer? Can anyone get an answer? I know the answer.

1:09:11Ana Kasparian:Israel wants a Jewish state and they want to expand. They have something known as the Greater Israel Project. They intend to annex the whole of the West Bank. In fact, Miriam Adelson legally bribed Donald Trump to ensure that that happens. And Israel announced that that's what they're going to do. And they're doing it. when it comes to Gaza. I mean, Hamas is so dumb because the atrocities they committed on October 7th gave Netanyahu and the Israeli government the perfect excuse to essentially do what they've always wanted to do, which is take that land. They're going to take that land. That's what they want.

1:09:43Ana Kasparian:They're going to ethnically cleanse whatever remains of the Palestinian people. They're going to force neighboring countries probably to absorb 2 million people. And then at the same time, they're going to have settlers move on in, rebuild Gaza, Jared Kushner, by the way, soon after October 7th happened, was like salivating on camera about how that's prime real estate. It's disgusting. But anyway. How can you move 2 million people right now? Well, there was a story published this week. I believe it was in the New York Times where Netanyahu and the Israeli government was in talks with our government in regard to getting aid from the United States in moving Palestinians out of Gaza.

1:10:28Ana Kasparian:So when they bomb the church, it's because they don't want the church. That land is supposed to be part of the Jewish state. You're not allowed to use my tax dollars to bomb churches. Well, that's what they're doing. I'll put up with a lot of stuff, but I think that's, and I don't, I've said this a hundred times, let me say it again. I don't understand how any Christian leader in the United States can sit by and not say something about that. And Mike Huckabee, who has been a pretty slavish, you know, devotee of the state of Israel, and I don't mean that as a compliment, he's a very nice man, but I disagree with him strongly.

1:10:59Even Mike Huckabee came out and said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You can't kill Christians.

1:11:04Ana Kasparian:And American citizens. And American citizens. But I don't understand why that's not, I mean, if that's not a red line, then there's no red line. I mean, I think it should definitely be a red line, but let me just say, Mike Huckabee made a statement and that's nice. It's more than Biden was willing to do. Talk is cheap. Are you going to cut funding? Are you going to stop sending over the 2 ,000 pound bombs that are destroying people's homes, universities, churches, refugee camps, hospitals? I mean, Gaza's leveled. D.R. Albala is like the last remaining portion of Gaza that still has some structures that people can live in.

1:11:47Ana Kasparian:And they're currently doing a ground invasion there. They got to destroy it, of course. I mean, it's so obvious what's happening. And it's so unjust. And this is the area where, what democracy? I have no power. The government's going to take part of my earnings that I worked really hard for, not to help my fellow American citizens who might need health care, who might have fallen on hard times and can't feed their families and need help with food assistance. It's not going to go to them. It's going to go toward the bombs that are terrorizing people in Gaza, the West Bank. By the way, it's going to expand further than that.

1:12:22Ana Kasparian:I mean, they've already annexed part of Syria. The Syria war, that proxy war, it was a proxy war for a reason. Turkey wanted to have influence and control over the area where the Kurds are at. Obviously, Israel wanted to annex portions of it, and they've been doing it ever since Assad fell. And you have a former al-Qaeda leader as the current leader of Syria, who's trying to capitulate to Israel, but obviously it's not good enough because Israel's still bombing the crap out of Syria. It's unbelievable. I have no ability to change it. It seems like the electorate in this country have no ability to change it because it doesn't matter which party you vote for, whether it's a Democratic presidential candidate or Republican presidential candidate, they're going to get elected and they're going to get dog walked by whoever the prime minister of Israel is at the time.

1:13:14How do we wind up supporting an Al-Qaeda leader? I thought we were anti-Al-Qaeda.

1:13:19Ana Kasparian:I thought so, too. I don't know. It makes no sense to me. But I mean, this is this is seen throughout American history in regard to our foreign policy. I mean, we will fund the Taliban. We'll give them weapons to fight the communists. We want to avoid communism. And then we turn on them for obvious reasons after what happened on 9-11. But I mean, I think it's not. We were told 9-11 was done by Al-Qaeda. So we've got to be pretty, I mean, that wasn't that long ago. We've got to be pretty anti-Al-Qaeda because like if they actually killed 3 ,000 Americans on 9-11, which everyone says they did, and I'm willing to believe that, then how in the world can we let any Al-Qaeda even exist?

1:14:06Wouldn't you venture to say it's required to ask these questions if you want to be a journalist? I would say, and I would also say, you know, the Syria situation, I was always opposed to what we were doing in Syria. I understood exactly why we were doing it. We ended up killing or abetting in the murder of an awful lot of religious minorities, Alawites, a lot of Christians, and destroying the country. And, you know, I was attacked for, you know, you're an Assad apologist or whatever, but I don't know anything about Assad.

1:14:39Ana Kasparian:So are they Al-Qaeda apologists? Well, that's the thing. And we've gotten to a place now where it's really clear that the 3 ,000 American lives they say were lost on September 11th due to Al-Qaeda are less important than whatever political or geopolitical consideration is driving our Syria policy. Yeah, and it makes me sick. So that's like about, that's treason, of course. But it's more than that. That's like a profound moral crime. And it's also a middle finger in the face of every American. Definitely. Yeah. If there's one thing we could expect our foreign policy would stay consistent on is we're anti-Al Qaeda because they killed 3 ,000 Americans.

1:15:15Yeah, but I just, I don't, I don't, well, I do understand our foreign policy and what drives our foreign policy. And it's a black pill for sure. So I'm not just asking this because you have an Armenian last name, which you do.

1:15:32Ana Kasparian:I do. But, and I think you're Armenian. That's why you have an Armenian last name. But because you did a segment on this. What is going on between Armenia, big picture, and Azerbaijan? Well, there was, about four years ago, there was a pretty brutal war. Azerbaijan attacked the Armenians who were living in this area known as Nagorno-Karabakh. Armenians call it Artsakh. And historically, Armenians have had roots there. There are ancient churches, Armenian churches there. and that land if you look at a map of where Nagorno-Karabakh is it's like in the middle of Azerbaijan not exactly in the middle but it's basically like let's say here's Azerbaijan like circle and it's like kind of off to one side Nagorno-Karabakh is and the reason that land was well the whole of Azerbaijan was controlled by the Soviets right Right.

1:16:34Ana Kasparian:But during that time, Stalin essentially gave the land that makes up Nagorno-Karabakh to Azerbaijan, like promised that land to them, even though that area was populated by ethnic Armenians. And he did that. I mean, Stalin was evil in a lot of ways, but he was also very smart, which is the most dangerous combination. Very smart. Yeah. And so he wanted both the Azeris and the Armenians to be dependent on the Soviet Union. And the way to do that is to put the ethnic Armenians smack dab in the middle of, you know, Azerbaijan. And so it became an issue because, you know, throughout history, Armenians went to war with the Azeris in regard to controlling that land.

1:17:21Ana Kasparian:Because most of the people there were Armenian, they wanted to control that land. And so what happened four years ago in 2020 is Azerbaijan's like, we want the Armenians out, we want to take over the land. And they went to war. Armenia is a tiny country. Russia has provided security guarantees to Armenia in the past. But unfortunately, in this case, Russia didn't come to the defense of ethnic Armenians. They said that the security guarantees had to do with Armenia and not Nagorno-Karabakh. So a lot of Armenians died. A lot of churches, ancient churches were absolutely destroyed and bombed. And the Azeris engaged in the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh.

1:18:06Ana Kasparian:They were forced out if they weren't killed. and some of them ended up in Armenia. And Armenia, of course, is going to take them in. But it's been really difficult because Armenia is a tiny country. It's a developing country. It's landlocked and it's surrounded by enemies and historically has been victimized by Turkey through the Armenian genocide. I mean, it's been pretty devastating. And I've been very vocal about what's been happening in Gaza and Armenians have been very proud of me for that. But a few have been like, why didn't you speak up about Nagorno-Karabakh? I did. I did actually at the time, but it happened four years ago.

1:18:44Why aren't the preachers talking about it? So churches were blown up?

1:18:48Ana Kasparian:Yeah. And by the way, I mean, religious leaders have been, but American media doesn't care about it. I mean, America doesn't care about Armenia at all. Oh, I get it. It's a small country, but I just, you know, the Armenians were persecuted precisely because they were Christians. That's my read. I mean, there's no, you know. Yeah, they were the minority, the religious minority. Of course, the religious minority at the very end of the Ottoman Empire, end of the First World War. And they were murdered in enormous numbers by the Ottomans using the Kurds, I think, for a lot of it. And the Kurds, we love the Kurds.

1:19:26But I don't understand why. I just see this theme. You may disagree with this, but I see a global theme where the most peaceful religion in the world is taking the most abuse. and there's the most murder of Christians. I don't quite know what that is. And I just am amazed that nobody says anything in the United States.

1:19:44Ana Kasparian:Yeah, I mean, Armenians don't have a powerful lobby that can bribe our politicians to care about them. So what's really depressing though, is we provide a lot of the weapons that Israel has. And Israel sold weapons to Azerbaijan to carry out the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Armenians from Nagorno-Karabakh. What? Yep. Yep. Is that confirmed? Yes, it's confirmed. It's absolutely confirmed. Israel sold weapons to Azerbaijan to kill the Christians. Yeah, that's exactly what happened. You're sure? Yeah, anyone can look it up. And look, if I'm ever wrong, I will admit it. But this is something I've researched deeply.

1:20:28Ana Kasparian:Where did Azerbaijan get its weapons from? There have been rumors that they also were sold weapons from Russia, but there was less confirmation on that. But in regard to Israel, it's very clear and it's documented. Yeah. I sense a theme. And I have a right to sense that theme because I'm a Christian and I'm not going to cede that right. Sorry. So the Armenians were murdered by the millions at the end of the First World War? But they weren't all killed. Where did they go? So thank you for asking me these questions. I really appreciate it because there's a lot that I want to say about it. So the Armenian genocide was perpetrated by an offshoot of an organization of like, it's a group that basically rebelled against the Ottoman Empire.

1:21:19Ana Kasparian:The Ottoman Empire had already been persecuting Armenians. There was the Adana massacres. I mean, massacres had been happening at the hands of the Ottoman Turks. Now, a group rose up to rebel against the Ottoman Empire, and those individuals were known as the Young Turks. We are not named after those people. Young Turks in American context means something entirely different. It means someone who rebels against societal expectations or the establishment, and that's what we do at our show. So that's why Cenk named it that. I kind of wish he didn't because it gets confused all the time. But nonetheless - It's kind of funny that there's a Turk and an Armenian hosting the show.

1:21:57Ana Kasparian:Yeah, and by the way, we talk about the Armenian genocide on the show all the time. He's Turkish, and he grew up in a certain context where you only get one side of the story. Of course. Yeah, we all have grown up in a certain... Exactly. But to his credit, I mean, through our very difficult conversations at times, through our debates, he eventually realized, oh my God, I was totally brainwashed. The Armenian genocide is totally real. and we talk about it all the time on the show. That's probably one of my proudest accomplishments because I could have turned my back on him, made him out to just be a terrible person who's unworthy of me even talking to him.

1:22:36Ana Kasparian:But instead, I made a decision to try to convince him, to persuade him. And it took a while, but it worked. And to me, seeing the humanity in someone who has a fundamental disagreement that enrages me. I think that probably out of all the qualities that make me human, I think that's my best quality. My willingness to try to persuade before I write someone off is unworthy. That's a very good quote. Yeah. But anyway, sorry. So the Young Turks rose up to... And the whole thing about the Young Turks was they didn't like the way Armenians were being persecuted. They wanted to provide rights to Armenians.

1:23:18Ana Kasparian:And you can look this up. It's in the history, right? But there was an offshoot of the Young Turks called the Committee of Unity and Progress. And they're the ones who perpetrated the Armenian genocide. Okay, so that's how it happened. 1.5 million Armenians were slaughtered. There were a lot more Armenians who were forced to march through the desert to Syria. My father was actually born in Damascus. Your father? My father, yeah. He was born in Damascus when he was two years old, though. The family wanted to move back to the homeland. My grandfather really cared about that. So they moved to Armenia, but it was difficult because at that point when the diaspora was moving back, the Armenians who never left, like there were cultural differences.

1:24:01Ana Kasparian:Because think about it. I mean, if you're going to an Arab country, you take on some of their cultural practices and stuff. And then when you go back to Armenia, there's a little bit of a disconnect. Always. The prodigal son effect. Yeah. So like there was a lot of Armenians who went to Syria, Lebanon. There's a huge Armenian community in Lebanon. Iran. In fact, there's a huge Armenian community in Iran till this day. Christian Armenians who are openly practicing their Christianity and going to church. In Iran? In Iran. Yeah. Yep. Yes. I have family members. And the way that Iran... Why aren't they all genocided by Iran?

1:24:40I thought...

1:24:40Ana Kasparian:Yeah, you would think that would happen, right? But no, there are Armenians in... They might not like the Ayatollah. They might not like the regime. but what they respect is the fact that they're still able to practice their religion. They're still able to go to church. For the most part, they're left alone. There's a huge Armenian population in Iran, I think. Yeah, that's the Armenian diaspora. And they were originally refugees from the genocide? Yes, yeah. I love Iranian Armenians. They're like among my favorite. They're just, I don't know. I just think that they're actually a lot more open-minded, believe it or not.

1:25:16Ana Kasparian:The diaspora that I come from is far more conservative and a little closed-minded, you know? So, but anyway, I just, our meetings have been through a lot. They really have. And they're all over the world because of the fact they were forced out of their own country. They've done so well. Yeah. They're hardworking people. They're good people, very family-oriented. I'm very proud of my heritage, but I'm also very proud to be an American. And that's the other thing about Armenians. They really love this country. They really do. And they feel privileged to be here. You know, if they immigrated here, they feel privileged.

1:25:54Ana Kasparian:My parents came here as refugees. My dad in the late 1970s, my mom in the early 1980s. From where? So from Armenia, both of them from Armenia. Soviet controlled at the time. Yes. So at the time, there was an effort, obviously, to continue containing communism, but to help refugees who wanted to flee communism. You know, when it comes to immigration, I think it's tricky, right? Because I do think that a lot of people come to this country and they contribute to it. without question. Yeah, definitely. And I think about the Armenian community and Glendale is like the nicest part of LA at this point, if you ask me.

1:26:36Ana Kasparian:And it's because it's part of LA County, but it's not part of LA City. It's mostly populated by Armenians and Cubans, by the way. And it's beautiful. Glendale, California is gorgeous. They care. They care about their community. They care about their families. They want to work hard. You're always going to have bad apples. And recently there was like a crime ring, an Armenian crime ring that was caught and taken down. And I'm glad they got deported. Fantastic. But most of them, they really, really care. An Armenian crime ring? Yeah. Was there a Mormon crime ring too? I don't know, maybe. I've never heard of an Armenian crime ring.

1:27:13Ana Kasparian:In LA. I mean, look, I don't want it to paint a picture of Armenians overall because there's a huge Armenian population and they're very successful and hardworking and they're good people. Oh, I know they are. Yeah. But you know, you're always going to have bad apples. It happens. and I have no problem with them being brought to justice. And that's what went down. I think the feds actually investigated it and it was a multi-year investigation and they were defrauding Medicare. There were like all sorts of financial crimes were taking place. Thank you for that. Yeah. That's really, and the fact that Iran has a huge Christian population, I just think it's amazing.

1:27:52Ana Kasparian:Yeah. Not explained. No one ever talks about that because it goes against the grain. It goes against the narrative of Iran. And again, that's not to say that the Iranian regime is fantastic and I support it. I don't. And by the way, it's not my place to determine who governs or who rules Iran. It's up to the Iranian people to make that decision. You don't think it's up to you? Hell no. I live in America. I'm an American. Who am I to tell any country who their leader should be? Who is our government? We should not be meddling in those matters, in any sovereign country. It's up to the people of that country to either rise up and demand something different or to reform the system, whatever they want to do.

1:28:34Ana Kasparian:I'm not interested in regime change. It's not my place at all. Here, I am the choir and you are preaching. So what happens to the media where you spent your entire life? Like, what does it look like in five years? I mean I think cable news is in a lot of trouble yeah because whether people want to believe it or not I think most Americans are actually pretty smart and privy to the fact that they're not really getting the whole story when they watch traditional media when they read legacy media and so there's a lot more competition now online and you have long form like this we're having a long-form conversation where there's space to actually explore the complexities of various issues.

1:29:26Ana Kasparian:And people love that. People want to be mentally stimulated. I'm never stimulated when I'm watching cable news. Maybe there are some examples. Sometimes there's a debate segment where I'm like, okay, that was a good segment. I like that. I hate the uniformity of ideology that you get on cable news oftentimes, that bothers me. I really, I will say this. I like Abby Phillips's show on CNN because that whole show is about bringing all sorts of people together from different perspectives to hash it out. And it remains for the most part pretty civil, but we're disagreeing and we're explaining why we disagree.

1:30:01Ana Kasparian:And I like that. And she's had me on, even though I think most people in cable news probably see me as a controversial figure to some extent. But they have all sorts of people on and I love that. I just noticed I was saddened to see that the one conservative guy, the professional conservative on CNN, who I think seems clever. I'm not against him personally. I don't know him. But the second, you know, we learn that, oh, we're going to be bombing Iran now. He's all in. Yeah. He's all in. So I feel like he, I forget his name. What was his name? He's on like often. I know who you're talking about.

1:30:36Ana Kasparian:But the thing that kind of offends me at this point is when partisan hackery takes place. You know what I'm saying? Do I know what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah, I've heard about it. It really annoys the crap out of me. I'll give you an example. I've participated in it. Yeah. And that's the thing. I give you credit because you have, on multiple occasions, admitted that the neoconservative ideology that you had taken on was wrong. I don't think most people... I think it's evil. Yeah. That's what I think. I don't think most people who are against you on the left know how often you condemn yourself on your own podcast about that.

1:31:15Ana Kasparian:So I just wanted to kind of draw attention to it. Well, I just think it's important not to pretend you're something that you're not. Yeah. And just be honest. And, you know, I didn't kill anybody. I did cheer on the deaths of others, though, I will say. But whatever, we all make mistakes. But I think it's just important to be honest at all times. And I think that, you know, to the extent you can. Exactly. Yeah. But just going back to the partisan hackery, I was recently on, you know, Abby Phillips' show and we were talking about the Epstein files and whether or not, you know, they should be released.

1:31:48Ana Kasparian:I'm in favor of releasing them. I think the American people deserve to know. But there was a conservative guy on the panel who immediately jumped to, well, why did the Democrats do it? And it's like, okay, sure. Why didn't the, I don't, I don't care. I don't care about the partisan stuff. Okay. Democrats didn't run on it. I'm not defending them. I would have liked for them to be the ones who ran on it and actually did it, but they didn't. The one who ran on it, well, Trump didn't necessarily run on it, but he did. His voters want it. His voters want it. Members of his administration kept like using the Epstein files as like bait to like entice the base.

1:32:28Ana Kasparian:And then also at the same time, while Trump might not have ran on it, he did use the Epstein files to attack Democrats like Bill Clinton, right? So you're drawing attention to that and you're making the release of the Epstein files a lot more desirable to your base. To then turn around and engage in this like weird, what I believe to be a cover up, not a good look, not a good look at all. So when we're having this discussion about what's happening at this very moment and the Republican guy immediately goes to Democrats bad, it's like, okay, I know the Democrats are bad. Can we just, let's talk about this moment right now where promises were made, but promises are not kept when it comes to this specific issue.

1:33:09Or the story itself. I mean, one of the problems, the partisanship is it obscures the actual issue that I'd like to know more about. And so the Epstein thing, from my perspective, has been long known, almost 20 years, The guy was a pervert and was involved in apparently a really significant sex ring with some underage girls in it. So the whole thing is gross. We knew that. But what is it? Like big picture. Like what is that? Where did the money come from? No one can answer that question.

1:33:40Ana Kasparian:Yeah. How did he make his money? How was he so wealthy? Nobody knows. Yeah. Why did Les Wexner give him so much money? And Leon Black. Like what is that? What's going on? Yeah, I know. So what do you think the answer is? I think he was an intelligence asset. That's my suspicion. Period. Doing what? Blackmailing people? Yeah, I think it was a blackmail operation. Why were there cameras in the rooms where girls were being raped? What did he do with that footage? What was the point of that footage? I have no cameras in any bedroom in my house. Neither do I. Normal people don't. Right. You know, he had relationships with people that were in intelligence.

1:34:20Ana Kasparian:I mean, obviously, Robert Maxwell, Ghislaine Maxwell's father, was a hardcore Zionist and worked for Mossad. I mean, this is well documented. Yeah, I don't think anyone's used to that. And he introduced Ghislaine to Jeffrey Epstein. The fact that Jeffrey Epstein was a college dropout, but Bill Barr's father, who worked for the OSS, hired him to be a math teacher at the Dalton School, which is a prestigious school that would only hire prestigious teachers. Jeffrey Epstein wasn't that. He wasn't a prestigious teacher. He dropped out of college. I don't know. There's just a lot of smoke. and it's led to distrust in our institutions.

1:35:07Ana Kasparian:It's led to a lot of suspicions. And I would like to know, and I think this is very important, whether we live in a sovereign country where our politicians are actually representing us or if we're living in a situation where a foreign country might have blackmail on our politicians or people in positions of power. And as a result, that blackmail is being used to force these politicians to pursue policies that are not beneficial to the American people, but beneficial to a foreign country. Do you really want to know, or will you admit that it's immoral of you to want to know and that maybe you just can't handle the truth and maybe you're a hater for wanting to know?

1:35:45Ana Kasparian:I want more than just me knowing. I want every single American to know. That's what I want. Yeah. Last question. Do you sincerely think that anybody, on either side of the aisle, which doesn't even exist, but whatever, left, right, wherever, could watch what you've said for the last almost two hours and come away angry? I mean, if you're Zionist, probably. You didn't even say anything against Zionism. I didn't, but it doesn't matter. I mean, you're... Look, if the Jeffrey Epstein suspicions are ever confirmed, that looks really, really bad. and you'd want to prevent, you would want that information to never come out.

1:36:33Ana Kasparian:So even talking about it, I feel really offends people for obvious reasons. And so I don't know, we'll see. But this is the message that I want people who might feel angry to take away from me. I don't give a fuck.

1:36:51Ana Kasparian:That's it. I can't improve on that. Hannah, thank you so much. Thank you.

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