Rev. Billy Cerveny: Satan’s Attacks, Transgenderism, Seeing the Supernatural &Hearing God’s Voice

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34:47You can find it all at curativabay.com slash Tucker. The 15 % Tucker offer is automatically applied when you check out. Again, curativabay.com slash Tucker. Serious cleaning that doesn't make your house feel like a chemical plant. Boy, that is just the story of all of our relationships with other people. it's like it's always someone else's fault that's like the default setting and most and certainly in me yeah like i'm just you know all that you know i can't believe they did that it's just the idolatry of our hearts and then part of that idolatry is my own self-image and the thing about idols is this you can never see your idols until they're smashed and there's no better place to smash the i the idolatry of self than in a marriage because you know where you're like well lie, I think.

35:32And, you know, no, I mean, your, your, your wife knows your, your wife is the most dangerous person in your world. That's for sure. Because she knows you and you're the most dangerous person in her world because you know her, you know, you know her, her wounded places, you know, where she's strong, you know, where she's weak, you know, her insecurities, you know, her sense of humor, you know, all the things. So you can either, you know, a few words from you. I mean, if you came to me and said, you know, insulted me in some way, you know, it might hurt my feelings. And, you know, we're really close friends.

36:05So, you know, it would kind of run over time. I think it'd wound you pretty bad. But if my wife said the same thing. Oh, dude, I'm with you. I would be, I wouldn't, you know, it would destroy me. You can't get out of bed, right? You know, you were coming in. I'm the same way. So, but it just shows the power you have over each other's life. No, she's got a loaded gun. There's no doubt. But you also have such a tremendous power to bless one another. and to raise one other way. I always say that you see the glory self in the other. Like, what does it mean to see who God is trying to call forward and to draw them forth?

36:37And that's hard, man. That's especially hard in conflict where you're sitting there and you're at odds and you're angry or something like that. And of course, when you're angry, you feel justified or otherwise you wouldn't feel angry, right? That's kind of the foundation of anger is our self-justification. But the discipline and the spiritual maturity in that is how do I still reach in there and see that glory sell for that person and draw them forward and to see them as a child of God, as someone that I actually love, as someone who's precious. And it's very hard to remember. I have a picture of my wife.

37:12I have a picture of my wife of her. She's probably three years old. It's cute, kid, beautiful. And it's stuck in my Bible in Psalm 139, which is the Psalm about, you're fearfully and wonderfully made. I wove, knit you together in your mother's womb. And it just talks about the glory of creation. And I do that on purpose because that's what I need to remember in my marriage. It's the thing that at any moment, because I love her deeply and I want to love her and it's really important that in order to do that well, you need to consistently see the value and the glory of this person that you're inextricably tied to at this point.

37:56Amen. Yeah, I agree. You mentioned pornography as a threat to marriage. It's like one of those things, I think we're just like maybe 10 years too old to really under, or speaking for myself, to really understand the magnitude of it. How often does pornography arise in marriage counseling as a huge problem? Oh, man. i i think it's hard to overstate how pervasive it is now if i meet with a man like take marriage counseling out of it just just men in general i i assume that's in the mix until proven otherwise actually yeah and that's not an indictment but i just it's so pervasive i'm safer to assume that's the case that that's somehow part of the narrative then uh then then it's not because it's it's it's you know we walk around with these little you know apple porn boxes that people have in their hands you know and they and you know could you imagine being a teenager now a teenage boy growing up where you know the the the greatest you know temptation in your life is literally three button clicks away at any moment.

39:16And what that's doing to the hearts and minds of young men and what it's doing to their concept of marriage and what that's doing to their concept of sexuality, you know, we're Gen X, you know, we're something like you and I came along and you want to do something, you had to work for it. You know, that's not like that. It is literally force fed to these young men. But you're only telling one half of the story. The other half is Tim Cook's a billionaire. So there has been a big upside to this. Yeah. If you're Tim Cook. No, it's crazy we haven't had a revolution. I pray it's coming, but I don't think that will ever happen apart from revival.

39:52I think that's right. Because it's gotta, and it's, it's, it's a, it's, again, not to belabor the point, but I think what that does, I think we going back to what is spiritual warfare, you know, what is, how does it play out on practical levels? I think that it's a profound evil. It's trying to, A, you know, anything, things you know the earlier you can damage someone sexually just think about what that does so real it's so real totally just the way that plays out you get stuck in patterns that men do anyway i don't know about women in human sexuality it's malleable right it's what it's um yeah it's not assigned at birth yeah yeah well it is and it isn't in the sense that it is is that that what i mean is our sex you know our sexuality as we live it out you know our sex is assigned a bird our gender is a sign of it, and it's obviously a God-breathed, you know, holy call.

40:44And, you know, when we talk about things like pornography and the abuses of pornography and things like that, it's really easy to get your wheels caught into this sort of dark, melancholy aspect of it. But, you know, you gotta flip it over and first see like, you know, the glory of what God designed when he designed human sexuality, when he called people and created man and woman to be sexual beings together, right? It's a glorious, it's a beautiful thing. It's this, in fact, people often criticize Christians as saying, oh, you have such a low view of sexuality. I'm like, you've gotta be kidding me.

41:17We have such a higher view of sexuality than the world. It's a fire, but it just needs to be kept into the fireplace. Right, it's not a consumer product, however. No, it's not a consumer product. It's not an adult playground that we just go and - Yeah, that make Tim Cook rich. But it has profound spiritual impacts for us if we cut against the grain of how God designed us for that. So when we talk about what you said, what you were asking about, like how does that spiritual warfare play out in our world, in our life, on practical boots on the ground level, like that's a perfect example. It's the assault on what God values, the marriage and human sexuality, because it knows that A, if you can twist that, it will turn us fully inward.

42:08It turns us, we become full blown consumers. We become a slave to appetites and we become, and I think the, again, going back to the, the beautiful thing that you see is that when the Lord heals in that place, you see so much, you see just the power of redemption and watching men and women be restored and feel like they're washed clean, that they're not shameful or objects of shame. And it's a beautiful thing that God has blessed me to be a part of as I've walked through that. So what is it? So pornography was sold, internet pornography. I mean, I kind of remember this. I was married by the time the internet arrived, but I remember - You're a year old, but I feel fairly young.

43:01Yeah. Spry, thanks to my consumption of Alp nicotine products. No, we are old. But there is some advantage in that in that you sort of remember how things were sold when they first arrived on market. And I remember people saying, well, this is going to be the end of rape and sexual assault because there's a healthy outlet for sexuality in the form of pornography. People said that. I mean, I remember when they said that. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I don't remember that, but I just... Well, the internet would make us free and inform us when actually people don't even read anymore and we're surveilled constantly.

43:39We're going to put this fire out by pouring gasoline on it. No, I totally agree. For the last 50 years or so, oil has been priced pretty much exclusively in U.S. dollars. It's called the petrodollar. And the point was to give the dollar our currency built-in demand around the world. And it's worked pretty well. But it's changing fast. Saudi Arabia and other Gulf nations are increasingly selling oil trades in Chinese yuan or other currencies. So the dollar's share of global reserves has dropped to its lowest level in a quarter century. Central banks around the world now have more gold than they've had in decades.

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44:44But I just didn't really think about it at the time. And at all, but, or really about anything we're thinking about at that time in my life. But anyway, fast forward 35 years, like what damage does it do? So you're a married man who's got a porn habit. Why is that bad? Like in practical terms, how does that divide you from your wife and family? Oh, we could spend the next three hours talking about this. But just give me five minutes. No, in simple terms. One, it twists your view of sexuality and it twists your view of your spouse. And what I mean by that is, you know, people say, oh, it's the objectification of women.

45:26People say that all the time. But it truly does do that. and you know women you might not know this women's sexuality is very different than a man's what yeah that's right and uh you know they just get drunk and horny and like hook up with random people they're not big dumb animals right they're they're they're and uh it doesn't mean it's less important for them i agree and god fashioned it for and that's another cliche that people say you know sex just means more for man than it does for him and actually that's not true it's not more important for a man than it is for a woman men just go about it differently and and for a man to understand the value of it for a woman it requires us to slow down and to to have that conversation and understand it and to listen in a way that we aren't naturally wired to do or we don't feel like we can do in our right yes you agree with that so i agree with that more than almost anything i've ever heard yeah it requires us to slow down that is number one absolutely and my father always said that slow down your dad was a wise man but on that topic he was wise yeah i am so um but yeah so the first thing that it does is it twists that right you begin it presents this these women as these caricatures of male sexuality and i think that's not fair and i think it does a tremendous amount of of of damage that's one two and again this is not an exhaustive list but two it it's it pushes men into isolation and you know porn pornography addictions or hidden sexuality these are things that men you know they don't do out in the open they they they you know they do in in secret they do it in and uh they do it in private and they don't tell anybody about it right and the number one tool that satan will do use is isolation yes he will push men into the shadows because what happens there that's where shame can grow unfettered And that's where, you know, people feel broken, more, you know, more perverse and where they become more broken and become more perverse, which makes you feel more.

47:27And it's this vicious feedback loop that begins to occur. So men, you know, they think they're, you know, it always, you know, it's interesting that always starts with, oh, I can handle this. And it becomes a sort of, you know, I'll smoke a cigarette a day, but the, you know, pornographic version of it. But before they know it, it becomes a consuming, a consuming thing in their lives. And so it drives them into the shadows, which creates isolation, which creates shame, which creates a false sense of self as you walk into marriage. And what is marriage? Marriage is as it was designed. You read Genesis chapter two.

48:08What does it say? He made right after the passage of bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. It says they were naked and unashamed. That they stood before each other. So that's about sex, but that's also about a spiritual heart posture that men and women have in front of each other that is all that I am. All that I, you know, seen and unseen. I am here before you. That's right. And pornography goes to war with that and pushes men into the shadows. And women too, by the way. This is not, I mean, it is certainly more dominated by men, but what we've seen over the years is that this is something that women contend with as well.

48:48Easier for me to talk about because I'm a man and, you know, probably holds more credence, but it's, but it's very real. So, you know, creates caricatures of what sexuality is, creates caricatures of women. It screws up your sex life, doesn't it? It, yeah, so it, and the other thing is, is what we said again, you know, our human sexuality, our, you know, our sex drives, they're malleable, right? And you feed that into those sort of, those, you know, perversions or those, you marinate in that kind of stuff. It will take you places you don't want to go. my father when i was little said to this is so over the top but i was gonna say it it was my favorite line ever i never say it because it's so over the top but i remember driving the car with him and he was telling we were like eight and ten or something and something about pornography came up because yeah it's a really bad idea it makes you perverse and he said your sexuality is like a grain of on of wood so if you take your fingernail and run it along a kitchen a wooden kitchen table.

49:56It gets deeper with every pass. And he said, if you get into that, my father's very pro-sex, like very pro-sex, but he goes, it's a dark road and you keep getting, it gets weirder and weirder and weirder. And the next thing you know, you can't get it up unless you're wearing a chicken costume. That's what he said. I have no idea what that means, but it stayed with me for 45 years, like a chicken costume. Your dad had a chicken costume? I don't know. No, he did not have a chicken costume he's very proud of not having a chicken costume but i understand that's hilarious i think he may have phrased it that way it was just so evocative that it like never i wish my brother was here he would confirm this like i never stopped thinking i knew your dad i believe that 100 i know your dad was awesome your dad was awesome you can't get it up unless you're wearing a chicken costume anyway uh so but that's the kind of what you're talking about i do i think it takes you again it takes you places it's it's the law of diminishing returns right so you know what it's it's it's like okay you need a this amount of heroin to begin with and before you know yes you know you quadruple the dose and it's it's all about the dopamine hit you know you it's the same our sexuality is no different that it when it's taken out of context when it's taken into those places when it's used in a way that god did not intend it like god it god's design for it is not to be prudish and to keep you from having a good time like of course right i mean and it's the idea of like how can this flourish and become something that doesn't that is life producing and literally but also that breeds intimacy between a man and a woman that breeds uh connection between a man and a woman that breeds a sense of just wonder and and awe and just beauty right and that was his design for it and when you step out of that boat man like it does everything i just described it does the opposite of that you know if there's one thing I could tell young people, it's protect that with all that you are, because the world is lying to you.

51:56It's lying to you about, you know, the frivolous, oh, it's no big deal. No, it is a big deal. It has profound spiritual implications for you. It has, it has, it can take you places that one day you wake up and you say, I don't want to be here and I don't know how to get back. All right. There is, and the good news, I'll say this, if you have, they have been there and I've seen this over and over again, you know, oh, you know, it's, I'm damaged goods now. No, you're not. Like this is, God uses the broken things of this world. And he is, I mean, I, the places I've been, the places you've been, the things that we've done in our lives, like we're, God, God is all about the prodigals.

52:37And there's no, there's no one that is beyond redemption and healing. And God loves to restore that because God loves that. Right. It ain't fun. Right. It's not a place you want to go, but if that's where you are and that's what you've done, it's okay. There's a God of grace that the reason, you know, Jesus doesn't see that. And that's why Jesus steps back from the table. Actually, that's the reason Jesus came because we misuse sexualities because we, you know, we, we're bathed in our own shame because we, we make bad decisions because we're so committed to our own self-destruction. That's why he calls himself self-destruction.

53:13That's why he calls himself a savior and not a, you know, a self-help guru. Because I need a savior. I need someone to reach out and pull me up and save me from me. Yeah. Right. It's not just, yes, there's on a theological level, he saves me from sin and he washes me clean and my, you know, my standing before God and all of those things, which is deep and profound and eternal and, you know, worthy of reflection for, you know thousands of years but when you boil it down he really came to save me from me yeah you know from my own devices and where i would go i mean you think of the number of things that god has saved you from that you're not aware of right yeah there's a long list of things i am aware of right right but so think about how dramatic the thing how dramatic the list is that he saved you from that you didn't even get to see.

54:09Right. And, and, you know, even the way he's restrained your own appetites in those places that you didn't even know, you know? And, uh, so yeah, going back to your question, I do think pornography, it's evil and it's done so much damage. And, you know, as you said, I think there's going to be a, I don't know what the word you use, like a revolution against it, but I don't think that's ever going to happen until we have an actual revival again, which man, we need that, but we have to, we've lost the plot. You lose the plot in sexuality. You're talking about that. You lose the plot of the gospel story, the creation story of you, and your story just kind of becomes about your narrative of my sex life.

54:54Then, you know, it becomes a very dangerous thing. But when you read it in light of like what we're talking about, you took, you know, we've just kind of touched on it, but you read the Genesis story and God's creative intention for that stuff. All of a sudden you become invited into this larger epic tale that becomes about something so much more. And what you're, again, your soul is of so much more immense value than you ever imagined it was. And it's to be a part of something that's so much more incredible than anything that you could ever cobble together on your own. Why wouldn't you want that?

55:28Right? And you're the person who put the gender stuff in context for me when this first happened. People questioning whether gender is real, you know, sex distinctions are real. Yeah. It's been going on for 70 years, of course. It's the core premise of second wave feminism that really there's no difference between the sexes. So I obviously rejected that. But then it became much more radical 10, maybe 10 years ago. Doesn't it strike you, but even in every context that, you know, be it secular or in church context, when people argue, you know, there are no gender distinctions, you know, you can make theological arguments, you know, biblical arguments, whatever.

56:13But just simply saying that like, hey, before 70 years ago, literally no one agreed with us. Like you can't really find a place in us. In all human history? In all human history. I'm not going to even argue I'm right or I'm wrong, but doesn't that make you want to pump the brakes a little bit? No, because we have atomic weapons now. And let me just indulge my theory, which I can't control myself from talking about. Run, baby. You've heard it before, but I just think, I think nuclear weapons, which I don't think were created by people, sorry. I don't care how many movies they make about it. I don't believe that.

56:51You didn't see Oppenheimer? Yeah, okay. I wouldn't watch that crap. I wouldn't let that into my head for one second. it. But anyway, because it's all lies. But anyway, sorry, now I'm getting really crazy, but it's all true. What I'm saying is true. I think once man possessed the power or believed he possessed the power to destroy everything that's alive, I think that he rejected God. Like that is kind of like, that's rejection of God. And like everything changed after that. People became convinced they were gods. And that's when the true craziness started. It's or the, you know, Obama years or whatever you want era.

57:29It's like post-nuclear weapons. That's what I believe. So anyway, but the gender thing kind of exploded maybe 10 years ago with this like, really, we're going to assign the child a gender or let him choose his gender or whatever. And I was like confused, but I thought it was so crazy that I just didn't take it seriously at all. And you're the one who made me take it seriously. And you said, I'll never forget it. You said this is a direct attack on God's design as described in Genesis. So can you flesh it out a little bit? This is not like an accident. Like this was always going to happen is basically what you said.

58:01Yeah, well, when you read the Genesis narrative, right? You know, again, God, you know, in the beginning, God creates the heaven and the earth. And you have this picture of this sort of chaos that happens and it's God's spirit hovers over the water. You know, the Hebrew, it's, the hovering as almost like a mother bird's wings hovering over the chaos. And he begins to speak things into order. And you know, you got day one and he creates light. And he still, you know, as it grows, he separates the land from the waters and he throws the stars in the sky and he shoots this fish in the sea and the animals come.

58:37And then each time you see each created order or each creative day, what you're watching is, it grows in glory. It grows in complexity, but it grows in glory. And each time God is, it's good. it's good and then you get to day six where god creates humanity and it's this sort of crowning explosion of creation the the largest expression of his glory actually the crown jewel of creation was the last thing which was created and that was those were women that is the final most glorious creation and and that's certainly how i feel yeah and that's the way the story needs to be read right so if people just side notice you know women always it's and i i have some i have sympathy for it for the there's much the church needs to apologize for for the ways that they've hurt women over in the past but i can tell you from from as a as a bible nerd i can tell you that that is the fault of man and not of god because the the biblical story elevates women in a way that the world never would.

59:43Anyway, so back to our point. So in this crown jewel of creation with humanity, he could have expressed it in any way. And he created man and he created woman. You know, he created masculinity and he created femininity. This is not a human construct. It is not a social construct. Of course, there are things that, you know, cultures and you know you know cultural moments can shape the way those are expressed but generally speaking masculinity as we understand it's it's not just oh you're a dude it's a holy calling it's a holy calling and as god says you are his image bearer in this world and women are his image bearers that come together to create this fuller image of what god is to be expressed and rolled out into the world as their imager, we, it would behoove us to understand what is this thing called masculinity that I've been saddled with, or I've been, I have been called to.

1:00:45What is femininity that I have been called to? And as, as men, I think, well, to your point, I think that's A, that, that you cannot, there's many people that make theological arguments against what I just said. You can make many theological arguments that you just can't make a biblical argument against what I just said. You just can't read the scripture in any just intellectually honest way and just not see that that's just the way it is. And also experientially. Well, I know it's true experientially because God also doles out punishments for eating the fruit. And he says to Adam, you're going to live by the sweat of your brow.

1:01:27It's going to be hard for you to make a living, you can go to work. Dorns and thistles, futility, yeah. And he says to Eve, two things. One, childbirth is going to be hard for you. And two, your desire is going to be for your husband. Rule over him. And he's going to rule over you. And those are the things that men and women resent, I've noticed. You know, men need to work. They derive satisfaction and self-respect from work, but they also hate to work because it's hard. Women, of course, most women love children, but they fear childbirth and that is suffering. and there is a sense in which women resent men.

1:02:01Men hate work and women might resent that stuff. We can do that, but when we lose the plot, but when we step back into the story, when we encounter God in a real way through the gate of Jesus, we go through and begin to see the redemptive story. But when we see the creation story and the creation purpose, like we just described and you realize, wait, this is a holy calling. I'm actually what what was God when God called Adam it work was work didn't happen after the fall God's purpose was work for Adam he said I want you again what we said again God created Edom Eden which was this holy place this but the rest of the world wasn't like Eden and when he says to Adam I want you to exercise dominion what he's saying it's not just I'm putting you in charge what he was saying is I'm giving you a job and I want you to take what is in Eden and I want you to take it all around the rest of the world.

1:02:56I want you to turn the world into this. I want you to drag the realities of this out and create, go be ruthlessly human in relationship with God. Go create cities and art and cuisine and all these things that become, build out the kingdom of God, right? And when you see that, when Jesus came talking about the kingdom of God, it wasn't plan B. he's grabbing plan A and just saying, we're re-instituted. It's all about that. And so when you see in Revelation chapter 21, which is the end of the story where it says, behold, I see the new heavens and the earth are coming down and behold, I'm making all things new.

1:03:35And it's this glorious picture of the consummation of all things. That holy city that's coming down, that was the city that Adam was supposed to have built. And all of a sudden, where Adam failed, Jesus is the second. He succeeded and he came and he made this happen. Why does that matter? How does that go into our, this question about man being working and all the sense of futility? Not only is masculinity a holy calling, but the work that we're to put our hands to when we have now of a gospel lens, when Jesus says the kingdom of God is at hand, we get to be participants now in the original mandate.

1:04:19How do we bring and build the kingdom of God here and now? And all of a sudden animates. I don't care if you're a plumber or you're a lawyer or you're a baker or candlestick maker, that all of a sudden we are now participants in something that God is doing that we get to bring the realities to bear in our world. And that sense of futility, I think when we can maintain that perspective, I don't think our sense of futility can stand, it goes to war with our sense of futility. Does that make sense? It does make sense. Can I add one liner note? Please. Eden was what physically? It was a land of rivers and trees.

1:04:59Great question. I'm a Genesis nerd, so I'm going to go here. Rivers and trees though, correct? Rivers and trees. Okay, so. Eden was also, I believe it says in Ezekiel, it describes it as on a mountain, which is kind of a lost fact. So rivers, trees, and mountains. And a place where God, the divine, and the human overlapped and dwelled together. So maybe there's a reason that when people are in office buildings, they feel differently from the way they feel when they're next to rivers. hanging out in the trees. And maybe anyone who destroys rivers and trees is on the wrong side. The Lorax might have had a point.

1:05:41I really believe that. I believe that. I believe that trees are really important. They're all over the Bible. I think cedar has a special place. But you look at it. In God's plan. It's true. But when you read, again, going back to the creation story, each creation's day after God made the trees, and what did he say? He says, it's good. It was good in and of itself because he found pleasure in men, not just for its utility, not to, but it's also. And not just for its utility. That's exactly right. It's for, and so when Adam was to exercise dominion, it wasn't like, what are you going to kill and cut down?

1:06:16It was, how are you going to nurture? Exactly. How are you going to take this and bring it everywhere? And that's why when people get in that kind of relationship with nature, they feel a deep satisfaction and a peace. that is clearly from God. 100%. So when you deny people that, that is, when you deny them beauty, when you destroy beauty, God's created beauty, that is not good. I just preached on this the other night, but the idea of redemption and the idea of recreation, when you, Genesis, I think it's 317, where it says, talking about, you know, thorns and thistles and we'll push back. One of the lines is it says, cursed is the ground because of you.

1:06:58Yes. God's speaking. And what he's saying there is because of your sin, you, Adam, who I've put in charge of the created order as my vice regent, because of your sin now, it is paid forward and it has corrupted the creation. So the earthquakes and the fallenness of this world is a product of the fallenness of man. so when you read in Romans 8 it talks about the creation groans and the way the creation groans because you know scripture tends to personify you know the birds and the mountains and all yeah and it says the creation groans right yeah of course uh in Psalm 19 you know all the creation sings of God's glory but the creation groans but in the same way it is it the redemption of creation is going to be tied to the redemption of man and the redemption of humanity.

1:07:54So as we are, have been recreated and are living out that recreation, one day we'll stand in the full realities of our recreation. So will the world. It is tied to when Jesus came to redeem all things, he wasn't just talking about people, all things, the cedars, as you just said, and the trees and the rivers and the, and I can't wait for that day. I agree with that. But on the way to that day, I think, I know, because I experienced this morning, so watch the sun come up, you can get flashes of it. That's right. All around us. And it's our, it's, it's, and we can, we can participate in that. That's, you know, behold, the kingdom of God is his hand.

1:08:36What is, what is Jesus doing in those moments when, in, in the new Testament, when he, we talked about this last night when jesus is every time you see jesus doing a miracle like what is jesus doing in that moment is he just doing a trick is he trying to sort of flex his like god muscle and show him like this is what i'm capable of is this a proof i mean there's some of that where he's like pulling back the curtain and revealing his divinity and who he is and where people sit back and he stills the wind in the waves and people aren't aren't just quit asking like, who are you? They're now asking like, what are you?

1:09:10Yeah. Right. But when Jesus, one of the things that he's doing in those moments where he is, you know, he heals the, heals the, you know, uh, the hemorrhaging woman, or he take raises Jairus's daughter from the dead, or he calls Lazarus out of the tomb. What he's doing is he's reaching forward and he's grabbing the realities of the new heavens and the new earth that we will one day live in the full experience. and he's planting them in the moment. And he's giving people a foretaste of like, this is what the kingdom of God is. This is what the kingdom. So, you know, the journey of redemption and recreation is not about how do we get man out of earth into heaven.

1:09:52The journey, the ultimate consummation is how do we get heaven and earth back together? And those miracles that we begin to see, the miracles we were just talking about, or is Jesus doing that very thing? And to your point where you say, well, I stand out there and I see pops of this, we now get to participate in that. So we get to bring the realities of the new heavens and the new earth. How does that look? Well, here's the new, when we bring comfort to someone who is lost in grief, when I sit with a couple who is shattered by adultery or their marriage isn't, or someone is on their deathbed and they are scared and they feel alone and you sit and you pray with them and you're bringing those realities to bear when you feed the hungry, when you love the very difficult to love.

1:10:48You know, that's our call. When you plant a garden, right? I know these are kind of, oh, come on. No, really. When you plant a garden, like, what are you doing? That's an ancient call. I mean, that's what Adam did. You know, that's what Noah did. You know, he was a farmer. He grew grapes. You know, this is, but we are participating in the tribe. Anyone who doubts that, anyone who would mock the idea of garden planting as a profound act is just not, hasn't lived long enough. Yeah, I'm not very good at that. I watered my wife's garden the other night. She had to go and she's like, we watered my garden.

1:11:23Took me like 40 minutes, by the way. But by the end, I was like, man, that was like amazing that was amazing all i did was order the garden i'm exercising my dominion with a hose i'm with you man that's it um so the gender the question of whether god created male and female this is not some minor question no and liberating people from the constraints of gender is probably not actually liberation is that what you're saying no it's i think it's it's a it's a confusion it's sad you know and in fairness let me let me uh take it from a non-political kind of lens of it because it's like i know that's a cultural move but just take it down to a you know there are people that and i have a deep heart for that people that have profound confusion in that place for sure and and brokenness in that place and that feel very lost in that place and feel very and the way christians talk about it and it's sort of argumentative way.

1:12:30Right. You know, like, oh, you're right. We're wrong. I'm like, dude, that's that, you know, we can fight a sort of air war, a theological war and have these kinds of debates. But at the end of the day, you got to remember, like, we're talking about people here. Right. Right. And there are legit people that are hurting and asking real questions in this place that have and a lot of them. Yeah. Not a small number. That's right. And, and I think one of the disservices in the church that we can do is because we get so consumed in the theological debate that, you know, we, we lose the trees and see the forest.

1:13:04Right. And when you look at the trees, these are people. And they're coming up there. So let me flip the question around. What would you say to someone who was in your care, just another human being, your neighbor, as defined by the New Testament, who was questioning his or her gender? What would you say to that person? presumably you don't want that person to have to question and you don't want the person to you know take the next steps but you love that person so probably not screaming at the person so what do you say well i'll tell you the first thing i would say is um well the first thing i would walk with a profound humility because i know that i'm stepping into a story that has that involves a tremendous amount of shame and a sense of isolation because this is something this person undoubtedly had been contending with far longer at a far younger age than - In solitude.

1:14:11In solitude, which is heartbreaking to think of a child asking theological questions for which they shouldn't be asked to contend with. Like, am I going to hell? Am I this? that's that's like i i could i weep thinking about that yeah so my heart posture in that is one of deep and profound compassion because they didn't they didn't ask for that yeah and it is and for those that sit on the opposite side of a theological fence to just come at this with hammer and tongs like you might win an argument but bro you are shattering people and you're for winning no hearts in that place. That's right. It is the God's kindness that leads to repentance.

1:15:02And we would, excuse me, we would be wise to remember his kindness to us before we ever step into a conversation like that. So what would I say? And by his kindness to us, you mean? They're no better than me. Exactly. I mean, I'm no better than them. That's exactly right. Hey, what lottery? I mean, you know what I'm saying? Do I know what you're saying? We were talking last night. We single this issue off, dude. And it's like, okay, but I will like somehow wink at greed or somebody's or my own - Or bloodlust. Or bloodlust or whatever it is. And we can wink at all these things, but like all those things keep me out of it.

1:15:46Like I deserve hell for all those things. Right. No, I get it. It is, but for the grace of God, period. And we talk about the things that God saved us from that we don't like, like, and the malleability. Like, why aren't you dealing with that? Why am I not dealing with that? Like, I don't know. I'm not, and I'm thankful I'm not. Totally agree. So how do you walk into it? What do you say? You don't say anything first. You listen, man. And you earn the right to be heard. You earn the right to be heard. You sow seeds, dude, and you listen. and the way you sow seeds is you non-judgmentally listen and you invite forward.

1:16:26Who are you, man? Because that doesn't define you. And you become a safe place and a trustworthy place, not with an agenda so you can eventually pull this judo move to show them how they're wrong. Because this is not your job, right? It's God's job to move someone's heart. It's God's job. Like when Jesus ate with sinners, what did he do? Did you think he sat around and ate? Because he just sat around and he ate with the tax collectors and the drunkards and the prostitutes. Did he sit there and the conversation was him going around the room telling them where they were wrong and he was right? Like, no, that would be a very short hang, right?

1:17:03That's not a good party. But no, it's because they liked him. And why did they like him? Because he probably listened really well. And he probably sat with them. And he earned the right to be heard. and as a professor that is a a wonderful philosophy of ministry as you step into places like this with the broken and the bruised and the the the bruised reeds and the smoldering wicks as scripture says and and you listen and you and you and and hopefully they come out of the shadows and begin to talk about the struggle and you and you honor it and you love them and you let you know you let the lord steer it like if i i would be doing a disservice what do you say like i don't know it depends how who i'm talking to and whatever but i know what i i know what i wouldn't say and i know what i wouldn't do and it wouldn't lead off with a with a moral lecture on what because they they know they've contended with those arguments they could probably shape those arguments better than i ever could because they've dealt with them far longer and far more personal ways so So yeah, I love them well.

1:18:12And then, you know, I think again, what does it mean to do the work of God in places like that? It's the same thing in anywhere else. A bunch of years ago, someone asked me this question. I was working with, doing some chaplaincy work with the soccer team. And he was joking me about, what is it like to do the Lord's work? And I kind of like, I thought it was kind of a weird question. And I thought to myself for a minute, I was like, you know what, man? I'm not doing the Lord's work. The Lord is doing the Lord's work. My job as a priest, as a pastor, as a Christian, as a man, is to cultivate a heart that knows what it means to listen to the Holy Spirit and to see where the Holy Spirit is moving and just agree with it.

1:19:03And just agree with it, right? How do we learn that? How do we cultivate that? We learn it through reading the word. We learn it through prayer. We learn it through worship. We learn it through doing these conversations. We learn it through our relationships with other men, our women, and our marriages. But we tune our hearts, as the hymn says, Lord, tune my heart to your grace so I know I can see it when you're doing it. And I can just agree with it. And the doors you open cannot be shut. The doors you closed can't be open. Help me not beat my head against those doors that won't open. And when I'm dealing with a human heart, it's the same question.

1:19:43What doors are you opening there? And how do I talk to them in a way that they need to hear this? Not the way that I can be right. Yeah, people have an overwhelming need to be right or desire to be right. I do. It's hard, man. I don't, but I— No, I know you don't. I look at you with pity and concern. Yeah, gosh, can you imagine? You need to be right. I need to prove your point. well, that was a beautiful description of how to actually love somebody rather than, I mean, because I know where you're coming from, which is you want to see people genuinely liberated and not led into their destruction by any of these things, you know?

1:20:29But we're all fighting against our desire to be right, really, is what it comes down to. Oh. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Can I say one thing, though, that I can't resist? um so jesus there's this moment where he says you know woe to anyone who leads the the children astray and you do feel like when you're looking at people who are beset by any of these agonies with i mean if you're you know you look at them with compassion but then you think like someone lied to them and got them here in the first place and i feel less compassion for that person i'm just going to say that there's a lot of voices man and i would there's a lot of people that will vehemently disagree with me and that's okay but uh i would just say that as people ask those questions about their own life and they're going through like you you can easily find someone to affirm the path that you're going down to oh yeah right i mean there's so many different flavors and denominations and expressions of that.

1:21:38Like you want someone to prop up your lifestyle and give you theological and biblical justification. Like you don't have to scratch, scratch very deep to find someone to do that. But that's why I think it's so important that, that we, that's why, like I said, I'm a Bible nerd. And I think it's so important that, that, that it's scripture alone, man. We have to, we have to go, you know, we have to go to scripture and test it, everything against, measure everything against what we're hearing in the world, what you're hearing from me, what you hear from the church and leadership. Like, I'm not scripture, right?

1:22:16I'm not like, what's right, what's wrong? Like, who gets to answer that question? Who gets to be the one to answer that question? Do I get to answer that question? No, God gets to answer that question. Okay, so that's, we can all agree. Most people will stack hands. God's the one that gets to answer that question. Okay, how does God answer that question? does he answer it through me he answers it through his word right he answers it through that that's how god has taken a knee and he has written this redemptive historical sort of incredibly rich dynamic gift to us that's called the bible and if if we are people that want to understand what it means to ask these questions, to move in these directions and to do it with any truth and integrity, we have to measure what we're hearing against this.

1:23:07It's be transformed by the renewing of your mind through the scriptures, it says in Romans. And so we can test God's good and perfect will. We can test it. Is this God speaking to me or is this some new fangled cultural moment that's just trying kind of like, you know, vie for air dominance right now or whatever, you know what I'm saying? Of course they do. So. Addiction has been a feature of, well, it's described in the Bible. So it's, you know, it's been around since people have been around, I think, but it does seem like a bigger factor in the lives of Americans than 40 years ago. I mean, I know that it is because there's just a lot more ways to get addicted and there's less cultural resistance to addiction than there's ever been.

1:23:53and so like entire generations are getting destroyed by it more things that are more obvious things to be addicted to that aren't just substances exactly yeah so how big a presence is addiction in your experience of counseling i mean it's it's just part of it you know and uh it's a you know doing what i do obviously you encounter you know when people come into my office and they knock on my door, very rarely it is like, hey, I have a question. Why in the book of Numbers did so-and-so, you know, why did Moses hold up a golden, you know, serpent or whatever? It's rarely questions like that. It's more like - Are you psyched when it is though?

1:24:34Yeah, actually that's a lot easier, right? It's a lot easier because, but it's people that are coming in with it, you know, they can't keep their cheese on their cracker, man. And they're saying, hey, I'm addicted to this or my marriage is coming apart. And so addiction is, it's a, it's a, you know, again, you've got substance abuse, you've got alcoholics, you've got people that, you know, opioids now, which is insane. You've got these things, you know, the list is endless. Gambling, pornography. Gambling. Pornography. Gambling is huge. That is, God, that scares me because of just the online stuff.

1:25:11Do you see that? I don't, I have seen it. It's not something that I have faced, but I know a lot about it. I know a lot of people that have gone that journey and that is one of the most nefarious and hard to beat addictions is gambling. And, but I'll let it say, but to those that, that contend with addiction, you know, the one thing that I can say, and then I can say this unequivocally is there is so much hope for people. it's not a path that you ever want to walk down but my my favorite people that i deal with are my friends in aa or my friends in uh you know they're in na or that have gone through recovery that have had you know all their self-righteous pretenses stripped down that have been brought down to the studs who have you know blown up their lives so they don't have anything they They don't have anything to prove.

1:26:06And they've been on this redemptive journey. I always talk to these people. I always say, would you please come and join my church? Would you please come and be a part? I'm like, we need this. Like the church needs to be a hospital, not a showcase. I've never been to a church as Christian as some AA meetings I've been to. I agree with you. And it's, you know, church needs to be a place where we can get blood on the walls. And you know what I mean by that? We can tell the truth. You know, church is not designed to be an AA meeting and AA meetings are not designed to be church, but there are aspects of it where - The humility and the honesty.

1:26:38The humility, the honesty to where people can come in and walk through the doors of a church and say, this is populated by people that I could sit in a room full of men or a room full of women, a room full of couples, and I could have a human yard sale of what I've done and who I've been in my life. And I would be met with love and grace and people looking at me and saying, I want to hear more of that. That when I show you the most wretched parts of me, it doesn't push you away, but it draws you closer because you're able to look me in the eye and say, yeah, I get it, man, me too. And that's, that is, you know, that's, because what that does, it does a lot of, our biggest, most, with addiction especially, and be it pornography, gambling, alcohol, whatever it is sweets or whatever you're addicted to it's no i don't think it's fair to put sweets that might be a little that might be a little too much but it's it is a it is it breeds so much shame yeah i know right it breeds so much and that's what sin does it breeds shame you read the story in the garden when adam eats of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he runs what's the first thing adam does is he run and he hides in the bushes yes he hides and then god comes in and he asks a question he says adam where are you what do you what do you why are you hiding little pro tip anytime god asks a question in scripture he already knows the answer he does but he what he needed adam to see is he needed adam to see the answer and adam comes out and he says what he says to him he says why were you hiding and all right adam's in the garden there's one rule in the garden don't eat of this tree of the knowledge of good and evil and adam's broken that rule sin enters and he hides and when god asks him why are you hiding the logical answer is I just broke the one rule.

1:28:31That's not what he says though. He says, I was naked and I was ashamed. And to paraphrase that, he was saying, I wasn't hiding because I have done something wrong. I'm hiding because I am something wrong. And I could not bear for you to see me. And if you saw me, you would reject me and I would be alone. And that is the most foundational cry of the human heart, which it was the cry of Jesus on the cross when he became sin, when he truly became like us and he absorbed the sin of humanity. And he quotes the Psalms and he says, my God, my God, the cry of dereliction, why have you forsaken me? He could have said anything in that moment, but it was this cry of our deepest longing, don't leave me, like this shameful thing that I am.

1:29:16So going back to the AA, the biggest poison that leads to addiction and it's this shame engine that drives us. And I don't want to feel it, so I drink it. I feel more shame and I drink more and it just becomes a cycle. But when you get into these rooms and you're able to have, like I just said, like you have a yard sale and you're able to say, this is what I am. I'm Billy, I'm an alcoholic or I'm talking around with this or I'm whatever it is. And you can lay that out in front of a group of people and they sit there and they don't run away and they don't give you the rejection that you think that you deserve that pushed Adam into the bushes.

1:29:53It does. It just sweeps the knee of your shame. and all of a sudden the thing that that satan meant for evil god means for good and it the the place of your greatest destruction your greatest fears your greatest self-sabotage becomes a place where life grows like tell me there's not a living god tell me there's not a god that that is that is using uh the tools of the enemy against him right that makes us more than conquerors right that's beautiful and so do i encounter addiction yeah and when i find guys that have been through recovery i love them me too i want more of them i feel exactly the same way yeah yeah yeah i couldn't agree more so you made um i think the most profound thing you said was the core human fear is don't leave us alone.

1:30:50And that the first thing that God saw that was wrong with creation was Adam's solitude. It's not good for man to be alone. It does feel like people are more alone. Oh, we're isolated, especially as men. Why as men?

1:31:11because we are scared to be found out you know men we live in the same way you know that that that description i just said of adam he's like you know there's something that's that's you know i'm not something right it said adam on this course that i have to become so it's on me i've got to become this ruthless quest for validation and that's the sort of spiritual genetic heritage that we've all received i think it's all men we are born with this idea of that this i i'm incomplete and i've and it's on me to to uh be enough and i'm terrified isn't that you You know, I, one is, but, you know, as a man, I spent much of my life, too much of my early life, terrified that people would see that I don't have it all together.

1:32:09Like we, we all like have two things in common. One, none of us have it all together. And the second is we, we all want everyone around us to think we do. Of course. Right. And the idea and the fear of that is if I let you see that, the same fear that Adam had, that you would see something that you found undesirable and you would abandon me and I would be left alone. So as men, we have become so artfully skilled at working side by side and doing acts of, you know, working side by side and, you know, playing golf together and doing all these things, but just know nothing about each other's lives.

1:32:55I think that's right. But if I could just be the liberal for a moment and blame society also, I think the structures have completely changed in the world around us. And I think it is more and more difficult for men to find the chance to be with other men. Yeah. Just men. I mean, that is total, well, by the way, it's measurable. Well, it's an ancient problem. I think one of the great unspoken miracles in scripture is that Jesus as a man in his mid thirties had 12 best friends. right like how many men in their 30s like the last most men i spent a lot of time ministering with men i love it it's one of my favorite things is that one of the one of the last times that men remember having real relationships was back in college i know there's last time and then they step into the workforce they get they get married which is wonderful they have children which is wonderful but they lose sight of the importance of male relationship they lose sight of they lose sight of the value of why you need men around you.

1:34:00And this is something that Jesus demonstrably demonstrated that with his 12 disciples. He illustrated a lot of things with that, but on a most basic level, it was just, hey, we need that. You read Mark chapter two. What is the story where Jesus is in Capernaum and he's there and he's teaching in the house and it's packed and there's people like hanging in the windows and no one could get in or out. And there's a man who's been paralyzed and they want Jesus to heal them and they can't get to him. So his friends, his four friends or however many friends it was, they pick up the mat and they grab the corners of the mat and they carry their friend and they go to the roof of where Jesus is teaching in this house.

1:34:42And they begin digging and they tear the roof off. You can imagine Jesus just feeling the chunks coming down and he's like, what's going on? And they're like, our friend is hurt. My friend needs you. And they lower this man down. If I were to go down the street, how many men do you think, and I polled randomly, how many men do you think would have mat carriers? I do. I do too. Thank you for being one of those mat carriers. Yeah. Well, we saw this coming 40 years ago. You saw it coming. No, I just knew that men in there, because I saw it among men I knew and respected and loved, they would get, you know, to middle age and then old age and they had no real male friends.

1:35:28And so we decided, the five of us in college, we're just not, we're not going to let that happen. And we set up a pretty complex structure to maintain that friendship. And we did. We sure did. And for, you know, 40, over 40 years now. And so that really one of the profound things in my life. But I just know, I really feel like I'm one of very few 57-year-old men I know who has like four best friends. For real, though, not kind of academically my best friends, but like people I see regularly who are the godfathers of my children. Who we, you know, travel somewhere in the world every single year.

1:36:07Who I talk to all the time. Who I've relied on consistently for 40 years for advice or if I needed it, money or whatever I need. and i will say not to brag but it's not bragging it's just the nature of it of those four men or five men all five are still happily married that's true all five have children who respect them all five are just basically happy yeah and i think it's the in part the results of those friendships oh that's been one of the the single most profound gifts of my life you've been one of the most profound gifts of my life. Partly, you know, what's funny about that group of, our group of five guys is you couldn't find five more different people.

1:36:53Yeah. Right. And the, the beauty of it was the commitment and the covenant where we pushed in. That's exactly right. We were 20 years old. We didn't know what we were saying. And we pushed in and we said, all right, we will not break this covenant, this vow with one another until we die. Until we die. And we have not and we will not. But the thing about it is you think about all the seasons of life where we've been through, all the incarnations of births and deaths and all the transitions and all the tears that have been cried and all those things that we've won and we've lost. and how the world has tried to conspire to pull our relationships apart just by proximity, but we've really held to that.

1:37:44And for me, I know personally, I'll just say knowing in those dark places that I could always just reach out. No, yeah. And just knowing that you're there and knowing that the other guys are there is, it's been such a gospel expression. the number of times I talked about earlier, you remember we were saying about how, you know, Jesus comes, he saves us from our sins. He saves us from, you know, breaks the back of sin and death, but, you know, foundation, he's saving me from myself. And the reason, one of the reasons I love our friendship is the number of times you guys have stepped in and kind of saved me from my own decisions.

1:38:23Been there. Right? Yeah. You know, just being able to speak like, hey, I wouldn't do that. Or, you know, just loving each other through hard times. And I mean, you know, losing, I remember my dad died. I will never forget it. It was last January and walking into that church was packed and turning around and seeing you guys all sitting on the row. It just shattered my heart, man, in a beautiful way. It was a huge gift to me, man. Yeah. It used to be. Yeah, no, it's been absolutely incredible. Yep. I could go on, I could write a book about it, never will. Never talked about it in public before. But the only reason I'm saying that is not to brag, but just to say because it's not anything you know i've just been the beneficiary of it but i think it's worth saying it out loud that like in some sense it's it's different obviously totally different from marriage but it's the same in the sense that it's the product of a covenant of a promise yeah to other people that you're just going to abide by and like when you have like a six month old and your buddies are like you know this year we're meeting in barbados or wherever we're meeting hartford connecticut and your wife is like what yeah you know come on now you've got three kids and i'm breastfeeding it cost you something to be there big time yeah and you you say them something for a lot there a lot and i think they've paid up many times all five of them support it because they see its fruits but but to say to your wife i'm sorry this is a commitment that I made and she's like, and you never want to make your wife mad, especially when she just bore your child and, and you do it.

1:40:01And like that, so it does take some sacrifice, not small sacrifice. No, tremendous. And it's so essential, but the dividends are, are so exponentially more. I mean, going back to what we're saying, like the importance of male relationship in that is the problem is, you know, in the same way we talked about pornography or addiction, one of things is it pushes you in isolation. Like isolation's a bad thing. And for us as men, as masculine beings, you lose perspective on your own masculinity and your own sense of self and your own role as a husband and your own role as a father. And it's essential that you have good, healthy men that can serve as mirrors and reflect and just kind of play catch with you a little bit on these ideas.

1:40:49Exactly. Or you get in your own one-man echo chamber and you start feeling crazy and then you start feeling the shame. I'm not doing this right or I don't know. And then you start living out a caricature of what you think you should be versus what you kind of really are. And the next thing you know, you want to talk about like how do marriage problems start? Like men, you know, there's a great spot, a great place. And for, I think, having those healthy relationships for men, certainly for me, has done a tremendous amount and helping me have a healthy marriage because it's helped me regulate my sense of self and also just like my sense of, my vain sense of self.

1:41:28I got famous in my 20s. I didn't expect to be famous. I got famous. It's been - I would not have handled that well in my 20s. Well, I don't think I did, but if it hadn't been for you guys, I think I would have been totally off the deep end, completely off the deep end. And our wives, for sure, We marry good women. Yeah, for sure. But, you know, I know a lot of married men who, your buddies are a little different from your wife because your wife is never going. Thankfully. No, I think it's harder for your wife to be like, oh, stop it. But you go see your buddies and you're like, who's the cable television show?

1:42:05They're like, cable television. They don't care at all. This is true. It's so good. Yeah. So important. It's so important. And I think what I, you know, I think this was kind of baked into the cake with us. Cause I mean, we met when we were 17 or whatever, right? And we met, you know, we were very unimpressive at that time. Not that we're very impressive now, but what happens is that, and I think one of the values of this friendship, and I think it's values of any male, if I could just elevate this one aspect of it, is that we love each other and we respect each other, but we're not overly impressed with each other.

1:42:41Oh, not at all. Like, this might be hard for people to understand, but like when we get together, we will rag on it. We will bust each other's chops in a way that only people that have that kind of relationship can do, right? That's the beauty of it. Yeah, we, you know, lovingly humiliate one another. Continuously. Continuously, yes. And so, but I think there's a huge value to that. And so for male relationship, what I'm talking about, it doesn't have to be some giant therapy session. It just has to be men that see you that have the ability and willingness to speak that truth into you and say, you know, no, dude, you're not all that.

1:43:18Or dude, about 10 years ago, I was, you know, I decide one of my children's like, you've got to get off nicotine. And I was like, I knew that was, it was obviously it's wrong to get off nicotine. Were you doing nicotine? So I get bullied by this. You love nicotine more than anybody else. I really do, always have. But anyway, this one child's like, it's bad for you, okay, which it's not. But anyway, I get off nicotine and immediately go crazy and get fat. fat and i kind of knew that i was crazy but i didn't quite realize how fat i was because no one in my world said one word to me about it and i was like man i think my pants shrunk whatever we go skiing and i'll never forget it we're on the we get off the tram in jackson wyoming and you know the five of us whatever we're skiing one of us lives out there and so anyway i get off and one of them turns to me goes dude you're fat and i was like i don't think i'm fat what he goes look at you you're fat it's disgusting and i was like i'm not fat you've got your own weather system man i'm on tv every day i don't think someone tell me if i was fat he goes dude you're fat someone is telling you and i remember this i i went and bought a tin of copenhagen that night and immediately you know lost some of the weight but the point is i was the only person who would tell me that and such so gently too i think everybody else noticed i mean obviously everyone else knows but now one person said one word yeah but you know uh do you know why he did that give me going back to use that phrase he had earned the right oh yes he was a sick because you knew he knew he loves you right and he knew you knew he cared and you know godfather to my son yes no i know no i know you're talking about right yeah you've met him yeah he's kind of fat to i agree um anyway yeah what an incredible blessing and i hope it this this conversation doesn't make other people feel well i don't know it's just true and so i'm glad we it is true i say that i think i hope other people hear it they hear this as an invitation right they that whether you're young or especially young people like lock in man find your find your find your you know your your mat carriers yes find your mat carriers man and uh because you're gonna need them because you're gonna because one day you're gonna be carrying that the mat for that guy but i promise you your day is coming where you're gonna be on the mat and you're not gonna be able to get up and they're gonna need to carry you to where you need to be and it is true it is true it is true as sure as i'm sitting here and for people that are older i don't care how old that there are men that are in if you don't go to a church or you don't a place where people can can do that that you don't have a community, then either look deeper in your church or find another one because it is so essential and it's so available.

1:46:08Yes. And it just is. And it just takes the risk of being able to step in and a willingness to just tell the truth and also to be a willingness to be the kind of person that can step in and hear someone else's as they tell you the truth about their life and you love them anyway, whether it's said graciously or they are telling you you're fat in a very unceremonious way. But it's done with love. And I just think it's, I hear it. I just, I say that as an invitation, man. I think it's good. Well, I hope it is because it's one of the most important things I've ever done after my marriage, the most important thing.

1:46:48So last question. And I think, it's something I think about a lot, but your answer when I asked you, what would you say to someone, to anyone, who was thinking, well, maybe I'm trans. I thought your answer was wonderful because you approached the person with love. So I want to ask a related question about something that's a kind of trend now among people who are really hurting, some of whom I think are wonderful people, veterans. And it's the use of like very, very heavy duty hallucinogens, famously ayahuasca, but there are a bunch of ibogaine, there are a bunch of them to heal them. And the reason that I've never really talked about it is because I want to approach it with that same spirit.

1:47:31Because these are like some of the best people I know. And also some of the most hurting people. And they've done what they were asked to do. In some cases, it meant killing other people. And they've been deeply damaged by it. That's my read. We spend a lot of time talking about how bad it is to be killed. I think we spend almost no time talking about how bad it is for someone to kill. But it is bad. And I know a lot of people who've done it and has hurt every one of them. so in that pain or out of that pain many of them go to hallucinogens very heavy duty hallucinogens and i should just be totally honest i've used hallucinogens as a child and i was totally convinced like that's not for me that's bad i was afraid of it um i did it a lot and i was really afraid of it i'm very opposed to it but i want to be open-minded and loving because i know that they are suffering so much so that's the preamble my question is what what's your view of that um taking that in pieces i would say first of all you know medically speaking like i you know i don't know like the right i know i've got people that i know that had medication resistant depression that had done experimental, but medically directed use of certain things that really helped them and with their depressions and things like that.

1:48:55But I don't know enough to speak about that. I would say to someone who's suffering from a PTSD to that level of what you're talking about, first of all, in the same way, what would I say?

1:49:10I the trauma of that is something they never asked for. And if I could distill it down, you know, here's the great tragedy of it is I would say it's not your fault. Like it's not your fault in the sense that, you know, you may have done things, but to have those experiences and you'd be thrust into a context where it's unwinnable, where you're being, you know, you're in war or whatever the context may be. And I know they're nuanced and varied, But like, it's not your fault that you have, you bear the sort of intellectual or the psychiatric wounds. And those are real. Like those are neuropathways that are like legitimately carved, right?

1:49:53So I don't wink at that. Like it's a real thing. PTSD is a real medical reality. It's not your fault, comma, but sadly, and this is the tyranny of it, it's not your responsibility. So now what are you going to do? how do you choose to step in these directions and insofar as you know there's a range of treatments i'm not an expert on that so i'm not going to speak to that but as far as like hallucinogens and you say ayahuasca or dmt or all of a sudden you are meeting figures yeah spiritual this is this is where i this is where that's what i'm specifically talking about this is where i have strong opinions and my strong opinion is that much like i talked about earlier you know we we live on uh you know we live on a side of a curtain there's a there there's a and there are thin places as you know like we talk about when i minister to someone by their bedside it's a thin place you can almost feel yes that they're crossing over and that's what the celtics would call a thin place it's like yeah heaven and earth or the divine or the supernatural the unseen realm and the seen realm are beginning to touch right and that's real yeah and what jesus says in John 10, he says that, you know, there, there is that inside and there is that, but I'm the gate.

1:51:08And if you want to go into this, that you want to go through the unseen realm where it produces this life and God, there's a way to do this. And it's through me, I'm the gate. And if you try to climb over the walls and you try to get in any other way, you're doing that, guess what? You're a robber and you're a thief and you're trying to gain the things of God without God. and you're trying to gain access to the divine and the unseen and all the, all you want the cookies in the cookie jar, but you don't, but you're not going through the gate. And, uh, what I would say is you read stories about DMT and you read people and I, you know, I've never done it.

1:51:46I don't, I, I, uh, but I know people that have dabbled in that quite a bit. And I know that when you hear encounters that I've, I've crossed over and I've had this, this encounter with all these beings and there was this a purple woman that i talked to and i developed this relationship like i was there for years but i was almost there for 10 minutes and then somebody else goes and has the same trip and goes in and he comes back and says hey i met a purple woman who knew your name and was asking about you which that's document reality i know people that many people right so what i'm telling you is there this isn't just some psychiatric mind-bending exercise, you're actually crossing, you're not going through the gate, you're crawling over the fence.

1:52:30But into a real paddock. Into a real place that is demonic. And those are, you are encountering, I think it's a demonic experience. And I think it's a dangerous one because what's so dangerous about it, and this is true. It's not your imagination, that's what you're saying. It's not your imagination. So when Jesus, or you read in the book of Deuteronomy or another place where it says You don't practice necromancy, don't do magic, don't get involved in, you know, tarot cards or all that kind of stuff. What he's not saying is there's no power there. What he's saying is actually the reason it's a warning is there's a lot going on over there.

1:53:05And it's, but it's really dangerous and it's not of God. It's not of Jesus and it's dangerous. And it will, and what's so dangerous about it is that the people that encounter this, generally speaking, and people, this isn't, I don't know, for as many people there are different experiences. But when people step into those places and they have these encounters, they have this profound sense of enlightenment. They feel special. They feel seen. They feel good. They feel, oh. And it's just like a taste they get. It's like the crack dealer giving the taste on the playground. And then the kid just gets deeper and deeper.

1:53:41And what they think is giving them life is really hollowing them out from the inside. and i think what's happening in those experiences is the deeper you go and you you will one day wake up and discover that you have been dabbling in in in a demonic realm that that promised you life but is actually an insight and progression and enlightenment but it has really been hollowing you out from the inside taking you away from the source of light taking you away from the source of forgiveness, of redemption that is only in Jesus

1:54:21and distorting the image in which you were created. And I think it's a dangerous place. And that scares me for people that do that. Now, where people, especially those, like I have a lot of compassion for people like Ibergine or people that are in PTSD. And again, if there's a medical shallow end of that pool that has some that's not running through the unseen realm. And so, I mean, I don't know. But if there's, but people that do that recreation, they're on some spiritual safari to go into that place. I'm like, man, I would caution you against that. That's one place you don't need to go to know you don't want to be there.

1:55:02Amen. Reverend Billy Servany, a phrase I never get tired of using. The one that still feels ironic. God bless you. God bless you, man. I love you. Good to see you.