The Shocking Reality of the Treatment of Christians in the Holy Land by the US-Funded Israeli Government

27:09That's correct. So I think, you know, like people like myself and the heads of churches, as well as Al-Awkaf and the sheikhs in Jerusalem, we will be the manifestation of the reality, of that custodianship. It's just so interesting. Why does that persist today? And is that a good arrangement, the status quo that you described? Of course, it's not only good, But I think for us, it saves the character of Jerusalem, where the three faiths, both Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, can exist side by side without any problems. Wouldn't it be easier just to hand the custodianship over to the government that runs it, which is the Israeli government, its political capitals in Jerusalem?

27:51That will be partial, and it will be exclusive. How do you think Christian holy sites would do, and Muslim holy sites would do? You know, we have, let me give you an example where, you know, like the Holy Sepulcher. For different reasons, we, for a long time, during Holy Saturday, which is the Holy Fire, one of the most sacred days in the Christian calendar. Yes. Of course, this is the night before Easter. Yes. You know, the restrictions that the police dare enforce on pilgrims is unprecedented. It's something that we always plead, please let the pilgrims come and enjoy. Now this is happening?

28:29Now this is happening every year now, yes, of course. Last year and the year before. So just to be clear, the Israeli government is preventing Christians from celebrating Easter in Jerusalem? Yes, they are preventing Christians and pilgrims from celebrating Easter. And the claim is, according to the police there, for safety reasons. But we're telling them for almost next, The Church of the Holy Sepulchre was built in 300-something. Okay, now that's 1 ,700 years ago. And we have always celebrated the holy fire. We always celebrated the welcome Easter. We didn't hear of somebody get banned or somebody got stamped.

29:08They're Christian pilgrims. They're not terrorists. Indeed. But now under the Israeli law for safety procedures, they are restricting the number of Christians going into the Holy Sepulchre instead of 10 ,000, they are restricting that sometimes to 1 ,500. And by negotiation, you can get them close to like 3 ,000. This is by miracle, you know, if you're lucky. You know, again, you know, for them to be fair, they're saying that for safety reasons, we're not allowing people in. And this is the discussion every year that we have. Are there similar restrictions on Jewish religions observances in Jerusalem?

29:47In Israel, generally, there have been some. There's been an incident in the north, in Maroon, where people, like I said, the community was celebrating a very famous holy site. Yes. And the bridge collapsed and 150 people died. Oof. And since that time, they were restricting more and more public worship. And I will tell you an incident as well, you know, like we're on the Mount of Tabor, which is the Transfiguration Mountain, that the Orthodox Church celebrates every year. Also, there have been restrictions there because of safety, not to allow pilgrims to go to the Holy Mountain for the celebration of Transfiguration.

30:28This is the fourth year in rule that they're not allowed pilgrims to go up for the celebration. Again, under safety restrictions. Have there been, in your lifetime, safety problems with Christians celebrating Easter in Jerusalem? No, not to my knowledge. So the U.S. ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, is a Christian minister. What has he done to help Christians celebrate Easter in Jerusalem? We are in touch with the American embassy, and we are also trying to kind of ask Huckabee and also the staff in the embassy to help the Christian community talk to Israel in order to enlarge the numbers of people who celebrate Easter.

31:18You know, sometimes they are successful in raising the numbers, sometimes they are not successful. But again, the issue, again, this is an internal matter.

31:25Tucker Carlson:Have you spoke? Right, but our ambassador is very involved in internal matters in Israel. Of course. Have you spoken to Ambassador Huckabee? I believe him from afar, but other heads of churches have spoken to him, yes. But he hasn't called you? He hasn't called me personally, no. Have American politicians called? Since the U.S. is funding a lot of this, have American politicians, Christian politicians called to ask you what they can do to help Christians in Jerusalem? You know, we reach out, they reach out, But, you know, they especially like, you know, talking about different issues. Like, let me give you an example.

32:06You know, I'm trying to kind of get to my hospital in Gaza, for example. Yes. And I'm trying to kind of get permission to go there, but I'm not allowed.

32:15Tucker Carlson:To go to your hospital in Gaza? Yes. Why? You see, I have an Israeli citizenship because I come from Nazareth. So I'm an Israeli citizen. You are an Israeli. Yeah. Well, yes. But, you know, at the same time, so basically I'm not allowed in according to their calculations. Why? So I try to ask, you know, the kind of our friends from the American embassy and other places, you know, in order to intervene. But the answer is no. So Huckabee hasn't helped you get to your Christian hospital in Gaza? I don't want to blame Huckabee for this, you know, but again, you know, I... No, I know you have to be diplomatic.

32:52I'm just surprised that someone who is a minister isn't doing more for Christians in this region. Yeah, again, but again, it's about my safety, I guess. Your safety. Would you feel unsafe going to Gaza? Absolutely not. I've been to Gaza many, many times. And actually two days before the war, I was there with bishops. We visited the hospital and I've been trying to visit the hospital. and others were successful, like other heads of churches managed to go there, both patriarchs, but I haven't, unfortunately. It's a Christian hospital. It's an Anglican Episcopal Christian hospital. What is the name of it?

33:34Tucker Carlson:Al-Ahli Arab Hospital. What kind of condition is it in? It is now kind of in a condition that operates on minimal capacity. I don't know, I'm sure that people I don't know how many people know about this, but it was hit at least eight times during the war. It was bombed eight times? Yeah. Why? You know, there are different accusations. Why did it happen? You know, a kind of suspicion about, like, activities in the hospital. And every time we asked for people to kind of prove, you know, what was happening there so that we at least know what is going on in our hospital. But every time we hear nothing.

34:19Were people killed in those bombings? You know, on two incidents, there have been two big explosions. The first one happened only two weeks after the, or even less than two weeks from the beginning on the 17th of October 2003, where a huge rocket fell and it became a really controversy. Israel accused Islamic Jihad for a misrocketed missile. You know, in Gaza, they said, no, it was Israeli rocket that came in. And there were two narratives at that time. Anyway, but this is the kind of thing that we have. Do we know the answer now? No, I don't know the answer.

34:58Tucker Carlson:People ask me, and I said, like, do I look like a soldier to you to tell you what happened there? Well, it's your government. You were born in the country, and you can't get a straight answer about your hospital? No. No, their answer was that, you know, it was a misrocketed missile. but it was bombed seven more times yeah do we know who did that no the other ones you know israelis did that they they we didn't comment did they not know it was a hospital they know it was a hospital why would they bomb a hospital a christian hospital again you know but as i said you know they they say when they do that that there is suspicion of terrorist activities in the hospital you can feel the people here they just came out of the dunes we've got to be around a hundred of them and now a boat's going to try to come around and pick them up in a single generation europe has changed forever this is the result of decades of mass migration more than it has in the last 2 000 years whoa easy easy whoa we followed one of the deadliest trade routes on earth from africa to the canary islands to spain france ending in the uk many cities natives are now the minority this was not an accident didn't happen organically you're not imagining it the The governments of Western Europe and the United States and Canada, New Zealand and Australia did this on purpose to their own people.

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37:38How many people have been killed in Gaza?

38:07Tucker Carlson:according to Israeli categories. Do we have any idea what percentage were women and children? You know, there are statistics out there, but I'm sure the vast majority are women and children. Is it possible to know? Who can go to Gaza? At some point, I think it's fair to ask, like, what happened over the last couple of years in Gaza? Are we ever going to know? you know like you know I'm sure that we will know in one way or the other but again I think the the catastrophe that happened there nothing will heal I just kind of just by seeing the amount of destruction and death that happened there it just breaks one's heart yes there are no words and again you know I'm sure that you know people will know like who did it and why they did it and how did it come and, you know, but for us, you know, the bottom line, there are people who are suffering, there are people who are dying.

39:07And that's the result of violence, you know, and which is

39:12Tucker Carlson:devastating for us.

39:17Tucker Carlson:How are you treated in Israel? Depending where you live, where you are, where you're walking. So I think, you know, in many places in Israel, where you are respected, there's freedom of movement, I can go in most places there are places that are restricted to any civilian if you know what I mean but in general I can go in many places if I'm walking in the old city for example if I'm in my suit, all good and well, of course the mosaic is so beautiful there, people living together walking together, you would enjoy the suit, but sometimes if I'm wearing my cross and my cassock I could be treated differently by some groups.

39:59Tucker Carlson:How are you treated? I could maybe could spat at, for example. Has someone ever spit at you? Yes. Really? Yeah. More than once? More than once. Yeah. Why? I just, I think, you know, I asked this question why. And in many cases, I have seen that, you know, like in many schools in the Jewish sector, who have, this is the answer that I receive, who have bad flashes of memories of persecution. The cross reminds them of persecution and expulsion and what have you. So they're teaching their children that the cross is a sign of persecution and they'll spit on Christians? Yeah. And we know that there are so many, not many, but there are some, and these are fringe groups that we have as heads of churches spoke about when there's vandalism of churches, when there is spitting at clergy, when there is doing nasty things to clergy.

41:07What kind of nasty things? I'm not going to say that on the air. I don't know, but they're doing really shameful things in front of church doors. Really? Yeah, yeah. I've been caught on camera many times. Oh, you act like this. Everyone knows this. I don't think many people in America know this. To Christian churches and Christian clergy. Yeah, and again, you know, these are like French group of people who are radicals, you know, who live in Jerusalem. Their main mission is to purify Jerusalem from infidels, Christians. That's their mission. And they say it out loud. It's on their website. You know, it's nothing hidden.

41:54Are you talking about Al-Qaeda or? No, no, I'm talking about Jewish radical groups, settler groups, yeah. Do you face vandalism from Islamic groups in Jerusalem? No, not to minorities, no. We don't have in Jerusalem. Yes. No. So in the United States after 9-11, we were told, and I think it was true, that there were these madrasas, these schools, Islamic schools that were producing radicalism. true radicalism against the infidel Christians and Jews. It sounds like something similar is going on in Jerusalem now, and you're the target of it. Can you talk? I mean, that's clearly bad. Is there anyone you can talk to about this?

42:38Yeah, we've talked to the police. We've talked to the government. And there are restrictions. The one thing about this that we were told, that spitting on people is not a charge. We need to have a law that forbids this, or there will be a kind of punishment to somebody who spits or something like that. So there's no law. So the people brought, if you press charges, they bring them in and they're released the next day. There's no law in Israel against spitting on Christians? No, spitting in general, not on Christians. But you can walk up and spit in someone's face for religious reasons? No, that's something different.

43:17And the spitting doesn't happen directly at you. So like if I'm passing, they would be spitting like in front of you. But it's directed to you, but not on you person. They don't touch you. They don't touch you. How common is that?

43:36Tucker Carlson:I don't know. I don't have statistics. No, but in your experience, you live there. Quite often, you know, like it happens. You know, I don't say on a daily basis, but, you know, it happens quite often. Even an Israeli channel did actually one time a kind of a secret investigation, and they dressed somebody in a castle with a cross, and they walked into the old city with hidden cameras. And, you know, they caught one like right there on camera, and then they spoke about it in Israeli channels. Good for them. Yeah, of course. They name some. Sometimes, quite often, they name things. But again, nothing happens.

44:20That's the problem. And that's why we have insisted on talking about reconciliation and building trust within the community. You know, calling the rabbis and, you know, the imams and the Christian leaders, you know, to teach their children about tolerance, about acceptance, and to refrain from incitement. You know, an exclusion and alienation and demonizing the other. No, Jerusalem is such a beautiful place. It's a sacred place. Yes, it is. But we have, you know, like groups. And talking about, you know, like, you know, extremists, you know, like in every religion there is extremists. Of course.

44:59And we're not saying that, you know, like only one. Our Christian history is not, you know, like neither clear or pure. We've had some Christian extremists for sure. Indeed. But that's why today, I think in the 21st century, it's important that we reconsider a lot of our views, even as religious people, how we view other people around us. And I wish, that's my prayer, we have always said, like the Holy Land, the Middle East, Christians, Muslims, and Jews lived together here for centuries. This is not something that we're trying to understand how to live together or how to manage our relationships.

45:45But unfortunately, I don't want to kind of accuse anybody, but outside forces have caused us to fight among ourselves. I've noticed. Unfortunately, that's how we see it. So has the extremism in Jerusalem, I mean, just to restate, you were born in the state of Israel. You're an Israeli citizen, so you would know. has it become more pronounced? Is there more extremism now, do you think? There's more extremism, and I can see that's on every side. That happens. The thing that the more you have extremist group on one side, the more you have the response of other extremists on the other side. So it happens all across the communities, unfortunately.

46:30But right now, it seems like there's no Christian extremism. I haven't seen any Christian terrorism groups here. I wouldn't say like terrorist groups Christian, but, you know, there are some who have extremist views. Yes. We see pockets coming up every now and then. I'm sure. But we as heads of churches always say and talk to our children, you know, don't forget that you are Christian and you have to abide by our Christian faith. You know, like any engagement in violence or military or ensignment is something that does not speak about our identity or our faith. Do Christians serve in the IDF? There are very, very few who do.

47:13Not many.

47:14Tucker Carlson:Why? Why do they do serve? Why don't they serve? No, because they see themselves as... First of all, it's not compulsory for them. So it's not compulsory for Arab citizens of Israel to serve in the army, and therefore they don't. But there are very few who do. And again, you know, let's remember that the Arabs inside Israel, they are Palestinians. By origin, at least they are Palestinians, you know. And imagine like, you know, I served Nablus, which is Shechem in the West Bank, the city in the northern part of the West Bank. And I was responsible for two congregations there. And I got married from Nablus.

47:58So my wife is Palestinian. and imagine like you know if if I like you know I would be like a soldier in the West Bank rather than a priest in the West Bank how would I treat my own people like it doesn't make sense you know for me it's just to think about the matter is just kind of makes me I don't know faint maybe what's happening a lot of attention in the United States has been paid to Gaza some attention. What's happening in the West Bank? In the West Bank, I think, you know, and we have seen over the past few weeks, especially, and actually not only a few weeks, you know, even during the war, the escalation of violence of settlers in the West Bank has risen drastically.

48:54and not only to kind of Muslim neighborhoods and villages, but also to Christian villages. Really? Yeah. Can you give me an example? Yeah, I can give you an example. The two recent examples is one in the town of Taipei, where actually you mentioned Ambassador Huckabee. He himself went there to visit the village after these attacks. of settlers burning and graffiti on walls and going into these farms to harass farmers who are Christian. And recently also in Birzeit near Ramallah, where we had an attack of settlers on a woman. They hit her with a stone in the head and then they arrested her son after that.

49:44Why did they arrest her son? Because he tried to defend her like his mother. and because of that, you know, he was arrested.

49:54Tucker Carlson:And these are Christians? Yeah, he's Christian. How many U.S. administration officials weighed in on this? Did Ambassador Huckabee say anything about this? No, he definitely said something about Tybee. I haven't seen anything about the last incident, but he went there in person actually and visited the police. But the most recent attack where a Christian woman was attacked by settlers, with a rock to the head and her son was arrested for trying to defend her. Ambassador Huckabee hasn't said anything about that. I didn't see anything myself, but he could either. You would know since you're the Archbishop in Jerusalem, I think.

50:32I'm sorry, I just want to, I just want to be very clear about his shameful anti-Christian behavior. I just want to be very clear about what I'm saying. What Ambassador Huckabee is doing is shameful and he's going to have to answer for it. So if that's my opinion, you don't have to ratify that. But it's shocking to me. So more broadly, why would these attacks be accelerating? Why would there be more attacks now? I think the less the IDF and the Israeli government persecutes those who do these shameful actions, which I call evil and sin, the more they do. That's the norm, unfortunately. Let me just close by contrasting your experience in your country, Israel, where you live, with the experience in Jordan.

51:25Are there attacks on Christians in Jordan? That question makes me laugh, first of all. Well, in the United States, we're told that Christians are murdered in the Middle East by Muslims. This is a country run by a Muslim king. And so it would be interesting to know how many Christians are driven off their land here. You know, quite often, you know, I see on the TV or even in many reports, you know, many people when they see us in the streets sometimes, a few people who see us in the streets sometimes in Jerusalem or other places, they will tell us as Arabs, please go to Syria, go to Jordan, and go to, why are you staying here?

52:12They ask us this question. To you? Yeah, to me and to others, any Arab. Many people say, why are you staying here? Just go to an Arab country. They say that to your face? Yeah, they would say that to my face.

52:29Honestly speaking, sometimes, and I'm saying that sarcastically, of course, I think about it and I think they are right because when I come to Jordan, I feel more at home than being in other places inside, in my own home country, honestly. How long has your family been in Jesus's hometown of Nazareth? Four, I wish I had my family three goes going back to the time of Jesus, but I think, you know, you remind me of a question, if I may paraphrase your question. He said, when people, I tell people that I'm Christian from Nazareth and they tell me, oh, nice. This is really cool. So when were you converted?

53:15So I tell them 2000 years ago. That's my answer. Like, you know, come on, Christianity started in places like the baptism site here, like Bethlehem, like Nazareth where the angel appeared to Mary. Jesus is from Nazareth. He is from Nazareth. Mary is from Nazareth. But, you know, so that's, it's ignorance. Again, it's ignorance. And sometimes it's deliberate, intentional ignorance even. It's all pretty amazing. Does that happen to you when you're in Jordan? Because there are, of course, holy sites here. We're at one right now. You know, again, I said, like, I feel blessed where I am. When I travel in my own diocese, I go to Lebanon.

54:00I come here to Jordan, my other home. I'm also a Jordanian. I consider myself a Jordanian citizen by virtue of being responsible in this place for my community. But honestly speaking, whenever I come to this place, Jordan, Lebanon even, I feel like this is my home. I feel myself fulfilled because I know that I'm free in this country. I can be myself without worrying that I would be spat at.

54:33Tucker Carlson:But Jordan is 98 % Muslim. Yes. But you feel freer here? I feel, yeah, of course. At this point in time, yes, I do free.

54:49Do you have a message to Christians in the United States? No, I have a message, yes, to say that, you know, my dear sisters and brothers in Christ and in humanity. You know, I want you to think about these places as treasures. Now, these places, Jordan, Palestine, you know, the Galilee inside what Israel today, these are places that actually embraced the descent and the incarnation of our faith as Christians. We need to preserve these places. We need to support the people here. Not only Christians. I'm not saying that we need to be only looking at Christians, but supporting people who live here because your support ensures the character of these places to be a safe home for all the people who live here, whether they are Jews, Christians, Muslims.

55:42That's right. Because we are all God's children. We have been living together here for a long time. And please, I just want to say a small example. If you want to pray for whoever whom your heart loves, okay, please don't divide us by your prayers. Don't further divide us by your prayers. We want you to pray for all the people of the Holy Land. Thank you, Archbishop. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. So thank you for doing this. One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was even I was amazed to discover how many prominent, like truly prominent Christian families there are in Jordan. A lot.

56:22And you're from one of the most prominent. What's it like to be a Christian in an overwhelmingly Muslim country here? Well, you know, Christians here in Jordan have always felt, you know, really one and the same with the Muslims in Jordan. and it goes back thousands of years, really, Tucker. So it's always felt like we're really one and the same. Islam is very much an integral part of our culture as Christians here. Yeah, we feel very comfortable. As Christians here? As Christians, absolutely. So you went to school, a number of very prominent schools in the United States. You spent a lot of time living in the U.S., so you know that most Americans are going to be surprised to hear that.

57:01Oh, of course. I mean, you know, a lot of my American friends, when I first met them, they were surprised that, you know, I'm Christian from Jordan. And I'm like, what do you mean? I mean, this is where Christianity started, right? This is, we are the ancient Christians. Yes. It's a bit upsetting for me. Jesus was baptized right there. Right here. I mean, this is a very special place, the baptism site. It's very close to our hearts as Christians, not just here, but all over the world. And can I say a little bit something about this site? Because we're here, Tucker. Yeah, so this baptism site, I mean, what most Christians around the world maybe sometimes forget is here we have the clearest manifestation in the Bible of the Holy Trinity, right here, Tucker, where you and I are today.

57:54You know, if you remember from Bible, the voice of God. Yes. And he said, you know, this is when Jesus is being baptized by St. John. this is my son of whom I'm well pleased I think yes and then the Sun right the Holy Spirit and the in the shins this ends in the shape of a dove this happened here and Christ's official mission right started in Jordan so you can actually make the claim this is not you know this is a biblical theological claim that the mission of Christianity is salvation history started right here so of course are Christians in Jordan. And it's just a very special place to be here.

58:34I hope you've had some time to... I've had an amazing time. I've been to this country before and I've always felt comfortable here. And if you say that, in the West, people are either incredulous or they accuse you of being a secret Muslim or jihadist or something, which I'm not at all. But I'm really struck that you said Islam is an integral part of the culture for Christians. here. What does that mean? Well, look, it's the faith traditions are so similar. It's remarkable. I mean, you know, if you look at the Quran, for example, the Quran is Jesus was mentioned 25 plus times in the Quran. And he was mentioned under different words, different names.

59:23So Isa is what his name is in Arabic. The word of God, that's actually from the Quran, the Messiah, Al-Masih. That's also Ibn Maryam, son of Maryam. The other thing that you might find interesting is also the Virgin Mary, right? I mean, she was mentioned 30 plus times in the Quran. She's revered, right? Actually, she was the only woman whose name was actually mentioned in the Quran. No other name of a woman has met. I mean, there was... Really? Absolutely. Maryam is the only name that's named by name in the Quran as a woman. As the mother of Jesus. As the mother of Jesus. There is a whole chapter in the Quran just dedicated for the Virgin Mary.

1:00:17So you can see, and of course, the same prophets, many of the same prophets, whether it's Elijah or Moses or Abraham, or, you know, they're in the Quran, as they are in the, you know, the New Testament and the Old Testament. So the faith traditions are very similar. So that's why the Muslims are actually very accepting of the Christian faith traditions. They are encompassing of the Christian faith traditions. So yeah, I mean - And you're saying this as a Christian? I'm saying this as a Christian here in Jordan. Absolutely. I'm at a disadvantage because I have not read the Quran. I'll just say that.

1:00:56But we have been taught for 25 years since 9-11 that Islam is inherently hostile to Christianity, but you don't believe that. I totally disagree with that. I think hostility is a human thing.

1:01:14Tucker Carlson:Yes. You know, you find humans on all sides of the spectrum that are, you know, compassionate or hostile. That's a common thing across humanity, across the world. But to demonize one religion, to say everyone in that religion is hostile is an atrocity, Tucker. It's absolutely not true. I agree with you. Yeah. Did you experience discrimination growing up here as a Christian? Never. I've never felt discriminated against as a Christian. Of course, there's people that don't sometimes understand Christian religious tradition. And there are sometimes questions and there are sometimes theological, of course, differences.

1:01:52And, you know, you can have a discussion about that and argue about that, right? But discrimination in terms of, you know, I feel at a disadvantage to be Christian here. Absolutely not. So your family, I think I understand this, is at the level of prominence that you're going to have to deal with the government. at a certain point? Yeah, okay. Of course, yeah. This is a small country, it's a monarchy. You've never had any problems dealing with the government as a Christian? No. No, actually, that's a great question. So Christians are very well represented here, as you can imagine. They're really part of the social fabric of the economy and the political environment.

1:02:33So Christians are represented in the Senate, in Parliament, in government, in the military, in the private sector, even though we are a minority, right? But the representation is everywhere. You're a tiny minority, right? We are like probably 2-3 % at this stage. I'm just guessing, but it seems like if you're 2-3 % of the population, you seem disproportionately represented among the affluent. Possibly. I think maybe minorities everywhere around the world, that's the case. Yes, it is. That is true. If you think about it, right? But I don't know. I've never measured that. I don't know if there are statistics on that.

1:03:15But that's never been a problem, I guess, because you do see minority groups around the world, as you said. You know, the Indians in Uganda in the 70s, name a group, but the minority group often is disproportionately successful, and then they are persecuted for that. Right. And that has not happened here. No. No, absolutely not. And there's a reason, I think, it's why. It is, I'll tell you, I mean, I was thinking about why is Jordan a special model for that, of coexistence, of interfaith harmony. I think there's three things, Tucker, and if these three things are there, Christian minorities in the Holy Land, they will thrive.

1:03:59Number one is we have constitutional rights as equal citizens. It's in the Jordanian constitution. you know so Christians and Muslims here have the same rights complete equality when it comes to even matters relating to Christian affairs whether it's marriages and you know you know even some civil affairs there are Christian courts that are different from the Sharia courts that there are for Muslims so there's in that sense there's you know this sort of coexistence but when it comes to of course civil and commercial and all of all those kinds of laws those apply to all of us equally here in Jordan.

1:04:35So constitutional rights are protected. That's number one. So this is not, so Christianity is an official religion here. Absolutely. I mean, yeah, there's in the constitution, there's freedom of worship, freedom of religion in the constitution. So this is, so very importantly, if you want to protect Christian minorities or any minority in that regard, anywhere in the world, constitutional rights have to be established. And they're established here. They were established from the very start, right? You know, when the Jordanian tribes and the Hashemites agreed to form a constitution and they've been there since then.

1:05:11So I would say that's the one, the first thing. The second thing, which I really think is important is stability, right? And the moment you don't have stability, the first to suffer are the minorities. Are the weak, of course. Are the weak. and you know stability is so important economic stability political stability security stability and so it's so sacred actually to to to ensure that there is stability in the region i would say the last thing is leadership you know we're very fortunate here to have you know his majesty king abdullah and the hashemite leadership i mean truly really tremendously fortunate because the Hashemites have always been about interfaith dialogue, discourse, meritocracy, compassion, mercy.

1:06:02So I think when you have great leadership, stability, and constitutional rights, yeah, a Christian minority can thrive. And that's what we have here. It's, and my job is not to talk up Jordan, but I've always wondered in all of your neighbors, I've spent time in all of your neighboring countries, always say the same thing. how do you have this country with really no energy resources? It's not inherently rich. Absorb all these refugees from the creation of Israel in 1948. I mean, enormous number. And then lose a huge part of its territory in 67, absorb more refugees, and then absorb still more refugees through the years, including from the civil war in Syria.

1:06:45And now apparently are being pushed to absorb still more refugees from Gaza. I don't think any country's ever been under this kind of pressure. This is for the outsider perspective anyway. How do you stay stable in the middle of all of that? That's a great question. I honestly, Tucker, I ask myself that all the time. And I think, you know, part of the answer is just the culture. The culture here, it's a very collectivist culture. It's a very tribal culture. You know, for example, the latest immigration of Syrian refugees, We had, I think, up to 1.5 million Syrian refugees during the Arab Spring.

1:07:24This is a small country. Yeah, that's on a proactive basis. It's like 40 million people moving into the U.S. overnight. And that's the scale of the, I mean, can you imagine 40 million people, all of Canada moving into the U.S., looking for jobs? I'm laughing, but, and I should say for people to follow this because it's a boutique question. There's a lot going on in the world, but this is interesting to me. this is all because of your geographic location. It's like you didn't ask for this. You just happen to be surrounded by these larger powers that decide they can use your country as like a place to store the products of their wars.

1:07:59Yeah, I mean, it's because it's stable. So we, you know, people say, you know, just move it to Jordan and let them deal with it. And to be honest, it's been difficult because the host community, the Jordanians, I mean, they've had to share resources with the refugees. They've had to share jobs. We have very limited resources, as you said, Tucker, be they financial, water resources, energy resources. I've sidetracked my own question. So the original question was, how do you absorb more refugees over the past 80 years than you have people, a lot more, and not fall apart? Look, a lot of it is, again, Hashemite leadership.

1:08:45It's taking care of the refugees, using our limited resources to support them. And my understanding is, especially with the last Syrian refugees, we had a lot of support from the international community in the beginning. But over time, there's donor fatigue over time. The news moves on. Right. And then the host community is stuck with the problem. And then we have to depend on our own resources. And obviously, a lot of it is just honestly us. It's local tax revenue, government support. Of course, we do get some support still from international donors, from the U.S. government, from other places around the world.

1:09:26So we're grateful for that. But yeah, it's tempting to let the host community deal with this problem because sort of the news cycle has moved on to something else. And that's a problem. So it's a question I'm interested in because from the American perspective, our country feels swamped with refugees. But no country maybe in history has been as swamped by refugees as yours. So it's just interesting to see how you've handled it. Yeah. No, I mean, I think people feel very much like, you know, the refugees coming in here. There's this moral sort of, you know, understanding that we have to take care of our own.

1:10:09And just to give you a story maybe from Jordan's history, if you wanna go back even to the time of the earliest Christians, right? Because we're the ancient Christians, right? So we remember these stories. One of the Christian holy sites here in Jordan is called Pella. I don't know if you know about Pella. So that was a city in the old Roman Decapolis, right? The 10 cities. The 10 cities. That are referred to in the New Testament. And referred to in the New Testament, exactly. So Pella is in Jordan. It's a beautiful site. It's well preserved. That was the site of the first Christian refugees coming out of Jerusalem.

1:10:45Before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by General Titus. Yes. All of the Christians moved to Pella, actually. It's technically, arguably, according to archaeology, the first Christian refugee haven. And that's in Jordan. And I think this has been our history. I did not know that. Yeah, we're the land of refugees. We are very much the land of refugees. And yeah, that's a nice story. And it's the same with Iraq. And I think when we talk about, you know, the Iraqi refugees as well, a while back, Muslim and Christian moved here. And going back to sort of the point on stability, Tucker, so, you know, when you have, there was US intervention, as you recalled in Iraq.

1:11:33I do recall. I heard about that. At the time of Saddam Hussein. And then the thing is, whenever you lose, whenever sort of there is a vacuum, that vacuum is always filled. And sometimes it's filled with, you know, bad elements. So Al-Qaeda filled that vacuum in Iraq after 2003. And then you had, which then of course later became ISIS, right, down the line. so all of a sudden you had Muslim and Christians who were targeted a lot of them came into Jordan and you know I know a priest he specializes in really taking care of the especially both Muslim and Christian refugees by the way there's no selectivity there they are here temporarily they see themselves as being here temporarily until they can immigrate to other parts of the world so So they receive financial assistance, schooling.

1:12:32A lot of it is provided either by the state or even fundraised by the churches, the local churches, until they are able to immigrate to other parts of the world where there's more economic prosperity and stability and jobs. So you're a Christian. You are 25 miles away from the most famous and important church in Christendom, and you've been one time in 50 years? Yeah, I need, I mean, obviously it's, First of all, I can't just go there, I need a visa. As a Jordanian, it's something that you have to apply for. And... How hard is it to get? Yeah, it's a process, and you have to apply. I can't recall how difficult it was to get the visa at the time, but also, you know, there's some security considerations.

1:13:18Tucker Carlson:What does that mean? I mean, you know, you see what's happening there now, how comfortable would Christians be or non-Christians even visiting the holy sites now? I'm totally confused. Those holy sites don't belong to the state of Israel, which is a political entity of very recent creation. Those holy sites are the center of our religion. They long predate by thousands of years, the creation of the state of Israel. So why wouldn't any Christian have a right to visit his own church? Yeah, I agree. That's my perspective as the person who's paying for all this. I agree with you. I think there's an angle I'd like to focus on here.

1:14:00So, you know, the Hashemites are very much the custodians of the Christian and the Muslim sites in Jerusalem. I think maybe that if you allow me to, I think that's something that people don't realize is that a lot of the restoration work that happens there is very much funded personally by the king. I mean, the tomb of Jesus Christ in the Holy Sepulchre was restored by personal donations from King Abdullah. And it says something. Wait, what? Absolutely, yeah. The tomb of Jesus was restored by the Muslim king of Jordan? Yeah, I mean, the king of Jordan. It's kind of a surprise ending to the story, I have to say.

1:14:43He's a direct descendant of the prophet Muhammad, right? and he's the one restoring the tomb of Jesus Christ. And I think that's this interfaith story. That's true? It is true. There's another story on the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. I think it shows you just how old these traditions are in the region and how welcoming it used to be to people from across all faiths, be they Jewish or Christian or Muslim, right, in the past. so since I think a thousand years ago since Salah al-Din or Saladin the keys to the church of the Holy Sepulchre did not belong to any of the Christian denominations because they couldn't agree amongst themselves the Armenian, the Orthodox, the Catholic Ethiopian, like who's going to have the key to the church and actually that key was handed to at the time Salah al-Din And even today, those keys are handed to a Muslim family.

1:15:44It's, I think, the Nsebe family of Jerusalem. They open the church in the morning, you know, and they close the church at night. So that's the kind of sort of, I mean, these are the stories we grew up with as Christians in the region, as Muslims in the region, even as Arab Jews, right, from the region. This is sort of the faith and the common faith and cultural tradition we grew up with here. So a lot of the stuff that we see today is very new. These are lines drawn in the sand by colonial powers that really sort of destroyed that social cohesion and the social fabric that existed here. My complete outsider perspective at the time when the official capital of the state of Israel moved from Tel Aviv, a city of recent creation, to Jerusalem, a city that, as noted, long predates the state of Israel, was that Jerusalem changed from an international holy site to a kind of government garrison run by a city-state, run by a nation-state.

1:16:55And that's probably not good for the Christians. Do you think that's fair? Yeah, I think Jerusalem belongs to all people, right? It surely doesn't belong to Bibi. It's not his. He didn't make it. None of those buildings was built by the government of Israel. Sorry. So, but now it kind of feels like it belongs to Bibi. Again, this is my perspective from thousands of miles away, but... Yeah, I mean, this is a city that belongs to all people around the world. This is a holy city, especially people of the Abrahamic religions, as we say. I mean, another story on that is, I mean, my grandfather, he was a merchant from Salt.

1:17:38He started... Where is that? It's actually sort of used to be the old capital here in Jordan. It's very close to here, very close to Amman as well. It's an old city as well, Ottoman city, but also Roman city. Originally, the world is Saltus anyway, Roman city. but he used to he started the trade between salt and Jerusalem when he was 13 years old at the time it was again Ottoman Empire so you could move around Damascus and Beirut and Jerusalem and that's what the merchants used to do I remember and he said and I asked him what was it like the first merchant he met in Jerusalem the first products he acquired and sold in salt was in Jerusalem I'm like what was it like when you visited there.

1:18:27This is in the 30s, the 1930s or late 20s, I'm guessing. He said, look, it's amazing. I'm like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, you know, there were the Muslims and the Jews and the Christians together in the streets playing backgammon, you know, just one community. And you can't tell the difference. You can't tell the difference. and yeah, that's what they're all Arabs. Most of them were Arabs at the time, right? So that's sort of the Jerusalem I hear about. That's the Jerusalem I remember. That's the Jerusalem that I think all of us long for is a united Jerusalem, one that's united for all faiths and the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims.

1:19:17And I think, I hope, I'm grateful that we will get there one day, Tucker. It's just interesting, and you know this because you spend so much time in the United States, that I don't think it would enter the minds of most Americans that a Christian could be better treated here in Jordan than in Israel. I mean, I see the stories of how Christians are suffering in Israel, especially the Palestinian Christians. I haven't had the unfortunate experience of going through that suffering. But yeah, I don't think it's just the Christians. I think the occupation is an equal opportunity. Oh, for sure. I don't think it's primarily the Christians.

1:20:04But what makes it galling from an American perspective, I am American, I see everything through the lens of the United States and its own interests, is that America is paying for this. And America is a majority Christian country. So, I mean, we can all have different views about what our foreign policy ought to be, but I don't think many Americans are in favor of a foreign policy that oppresses their fellow Christians. I hope not.

1:20:34I hope not. But you see the point. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think, I mean, my advice would be to the Christians that really care in the U.S. is talk to us. Talk to the ancient Christians. We've been here since Christ. We're here. Don't just listen to the D.C. experts. So they don't reach out to you? No. In fact, I think what I'm sharing with you today is something that's novel. This is not a narrative, I don't think, that you hear in the U.S. a lot. Ever. I feel shame listening to you, and I rarely feel shame, But I do feel shame listening to you that I didn't know more about this because I am a Christian.

1:21:20And I think we have an obligation to know what our tax dollars do to our fellow Christians. And I just haven't spent enough time thinking about it. And I think it's very odd that Christians in Jordan and in Israel aren't receiving help from Christians in the West. Do you think that? I do. I do. I think it's odd. And going back to sort of why the Jordanian sort of experience is unique. Remember those three things? Stability is one of them. If the Christians in the U.S. and in the West, right, they really cared about sort of the minority Christian communities here in the Holy Land. If they really do, and if they don't, you know, they have to really think about why they don't.

1:22:03Oh, I agree. And I assume most of them do, right? And if they do, they really have to think about stability. and this is important to mention Tucker but possibly the most destabilizing thing happening in the region is the situation Israel-Palestine without a just resolution a just resolution for the situation of the Palestinians there it's just going to be even more destabilizing for communities in Palestine in Jordan, across the region How about the United States? I mean, 9-11, if you believe the 9-11 report, was committed by people who are mad about American foreign policy decisions in this region right here.

1:22:56So, you know, you fund mass murder in Gaza and there's no blowback to you. I think there's probably going to be, wouldn't you think? Yeah, I mean, look, there's U.S. intervention in the region. There's really positive stuff and there's negative stuff, right? It's positive when it's economic and it's about... Jordanians are so diplomatic. I love that. Well, it really is. It's truthful. I really feel that. Like, you look at, for example, USAID programs in Jordan, right? Of course. They were so, you know, with the water infrastructure that they helped us develop here with the education reform, you know, all that stuff.

1:23:32job creation, that works, right? Our defense cooperation, that works, right? But when you look at military intervention, we pay the price, look at all the refugees, right? That come into the country, and it has an economic cost, and a social cost, and a security cost, and a political cost. So I'm hoping that maybe President Trump, I know he called the Department of Defense the Department into war. I really hope President Trump, I know he cares about peace. I really hope he renames it the Department of Peace and Prosperity because if you want to have real protection of Christian communities here, you have to invest in stability, intervene peacefully, you know, economically, FDI.

1:24:20It's great for the US. It's also great for the region. What is likely to happen in Gaza next? What happens to all the people in Gaza? I mean, it's the genocide, right? Yeah. And it's, I wish I knew, Tucker. Well, there are all these redevelopment plans. And obviously, I'm always hoping for order and tidiness and prosperity. I mean, I think those are all godly things. There's nothing, those are good. But you have, I don't know, close to 2 million people who are there. And they're in the way. and clearly there's going to be an effort to, I don't know, I don't know what, like what happens to those people?

1:25:06And clearly I think, that's my personal perspective. I'm not a politician, you know, I'm a businessman. So I think, you know, pragmatically and morally about things, right? They have to stay. We have to rebuild their homes and, you know, their livelihoods, their communities. That's, I think, the only solution, Tucker. I mean, I don't see anyone that can accept morally, even politically, even just on a humanitarian basis, right? A forced expulsion, right, of people from Gaza, from their native homeland. Of millions of people? Of millions of people. That hasn't happened, you know, since the Second World War.

1:25:48So you hope it wouldn't happen now. But do you think that might happen? I'm not qualified to answer that question all I can tell you is if it does happen on our watch all of us are accountable for it I agree I agree completely why did you I don't want to say the fancy schools that you went to but you went to prominent schools in the United States and you could have stayed and I'm sure all your classmates are prosperous at this point. Yeah. Yeah, from business school. But why did you come back? I've always wanted to come back. U.S. was, for me, an amazing experience studying in the U.S. at the time.

1:26:33I was there mainly in the 90s, right?

1:26:34Tucker Carlson:Yeah. And, you know, I owe a lot to my education in the U.S. It was a very meaningful experience. there was, it felt like a lot of, at the time, this freedom of thought and expression, and then ultimately conscience. Yes. That you can have there. Exactly. And that's very liberating. Well, the point of freedom of speech is freedom of conscience. I get to believe what I, I get to speak my values out loud, right? Exactly. And I felt that in the US when I was there. That was a very powerful lesson. But the intention was never to stay there. This is a very collectivist against society. Family here is very important.

1:27:17Community here is very important. And to want to be part of that and to give back to that and to support that and to have my family and my children grow up in that sort of collectivist environment is really more important than money or anything else, honestly, and that's how I'm programmed. And I'm fortunate I can say that because I could also afford to come back. You know, I was, my father was a businessman, my grandfather was a businessman. So I could afford to come here and, you know, to explore sort of my career journey. So some people can't. So they optimize working in other parts of the world.

1:27:58So I have to be honest about that. But no regrets. I love it here. Did you have family on the other side of the river in 48 or 60? No. Really? We're very much Jordanian. Always? Yeah. My family is. How many refugees did you get in 48? Do you know? Oh, wow. I'm not on top of the figures, but I think there were a total of, at the time, I'm not sure if they all came to Jordan, but 600 ,000, 700 ,000 total refugees at the time. Some of them went into Palestine and Syria, and a lot of them came into Jordan. So that's the total number, if I recall, if my memory serves me correctly. I'm not sure what proportion.

1:28:43I think the majority came into Jordan. My last question is, where do you think this is all going? It seems like things are accelerating quickly. People are getting more radical. The maps are being redrawn. Huge populations are being moved around. I mean, what are we looking at here?

1:29:05look I'm scared for what's coming it feels like a big thing I guess that's what I'm saying I am scared for what's coming there's a lot of lack of clarity and it feels like decisions are being made in you know backroom doors by who knows who so there's honestly I wish I could answer that and that's the thing is if you want to create instability you create insecurity because nobody knows outcomes. I feel when it comes to Jordan, we have a strong leadership here. We have strong security and defense here. We have a wise people here. I mean, you've seen, this is one of the most resilient countries, I think, in the world.

1:29:53I mean, who can come up and deal with the types of things that we've had to dealt with over the past couple of decades? So I think we'll find a way through it. But my concern is also for the wider region, right? At what cost? And my only concern, Tucker, I mean, when you have US military intervention or any kind of military intervention, if there is a vacuum, it needs to be filled. And who's going to fill that vacuum, right? And what comes later? What comes later might be even worse than, right? I think we kind of know because we've had 1948 who got hurt. Well, the Christians got hurt. A lot of Muslims got hurt too, but the Christians being a minority got hurt.

1:30:39Then you have Israel-inspiring pushing for the Iraq war. Christians' population in the country just basically evaporates. Then you have Israel pushing for the overthrow of Assad in Syria. Minority religious people get hurt. Christians, not just Alawites, but lots of them. But they get crushed. Lebanon, bombed by Israel for 40 years. Christian population diminishes. So like, I see a theme here. Do you? Yeah, there's clearly a theme. Yeah. Yeah. And it's an anti-Christian theme. I think it is. I think it is because what it means to be Christian is if you really think about it, you know, the most radical thing that Jesus taught us is love.

1:31:26Yes. And if something does not stem out of love, is it really Christian? No. And a lot of what's happening is the furthest thing away imaginable from love that I can imagine at this stage, Sucker. So, it doesn't feel very Christian to me. Good luck. Thanks. Thank you.