The Truth About the Biggest Act of Domestic Terrorism in American History

0:04Have you ever noticed that whenever there's a history-changing act of violence, it was a lone wolf? It was a lone wolf. It was a random crazy guy. We have no idea why he did it. That would be the guy who killed JFK and RFK and MLK and the Butler shooting. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. Almost all shootings in real life are between people who know each other or trying to steal something from one another. but all the political killings are just some random crazy person. It's weird, isn't it? What are the chances? But when you question the official story, the people in charge don't even respond.

0:39They react like people have got something to hide. They just attack you. That's what liars do. Journalists doing their job, which is seeking real answers, are a massive threat to their power. So noticing is the crime. And that's certainly the case with the subject of our new series, the OKC bomb files. This is the story of what actually happened, to the extent we know, at the 1995 bombing in Oklahoma City that killed 168 people. Now, you'll recall that the feds told us the bomber was a guy called Tim McVeigh, and he was a veteran white supremacist lone wolf. But over the past 31 years, a lot of evidence has accumulated to suggest, well, really to show, that's a full-blown lie.

1:25There were many more people involved in that crime. We're talking to a person today who lost her two young grandsons in that bombing, and she has spent the last 30 years investigating the attack herself. She's smart, she's methodical, she's not crazy, and she has a lot to say. She's here today to tell us why she believes that the FBI's story about Tim McVeigh acting alone is a lie. And who else may have been involved? And how the government knows more than it has admitted. Here's Kathy Sanders. Kathy, thank you so much for doing this. Well, it's my pleasure. Thank you. I think most Americans under, let's say, 40 have only a dim understanding, if any knowledge at all, about what happened in Oklahoma City.

2:13Can you tell the outline of the story for us? I'll be happy to.

2:23People don't know about Oklahoma City because it's not even in the history books, not even in Oklahoma. What happened to me was on April 19th, 1995, I woke up one morning and I went to the bedroom next to mine because my grandchildren lived in my home. My daughter was a young divorced mother and Chase and Colton lived in our home and everything in our life evolved around these little boys and I went in to wake them up and they weren't in there and I thought how strange so I walked down the hall to the end of the hallway and sometime during the night Tucker those two little boys two and three years old had toddled down the hall and gotten in bed with their mother where they spent the last night of their lives.

3:13I turned on the light in the bedroom like I did every morning. At our house, we always started with a song. It's like, good morning to you, good morning to you. We're all in our places with sunshiny faces. What a nice way to start a new Wednesday. And the little boys begin to giggle and we get them ready for school, for daycare. In our home, it was a group effort. 80s working on the boys, I'm working on the boys, brushing their teeth, and we'd get them all dressed and take them into the kitchen where we feed them breakfast.

3:50And Edie and I load them in the car because she and I not only lived together, we worked together downtown, and we took the boys and dropped them off at the daycare. I remember the little crumbs on Colton's face when we left them. we went on to our office to go to work. Adie had been sick on Monday and Tuesday before the bombing on Wednesday, and she had kept the boys at home with her. She was going to stay home on Wednesday as well. But on Tuesday night, she got a call from a co-worker that said, Adie, you've got to come to work tomorrow because we're having the office birthday parties for the people whose birthdays were in April, and it was Adie and another girl's.

4:33and so Edie agreed she would come in but she might go home afterwards if she still felt bad so she went into the office I'm two floors above her and she's walking across the floor to blow out the candles on her birthday cake when the bomb goes off it's this huge explosion unlike anything I'd ever heard before I knew something had happened and it was bad so she and I I ran the two floors down to her office and I opened the door and everybody's looking out the windows they're trying to figure out what happened someone is on the phone and they hang up the phone and they said they just blew up the bank and I said Edie let's go see so we run down three flights of stairs and out the front door of the of our office, which was three blocks from the Murrah.

5:33And there wasn't a car or one moving in the street. It was like we'd entered the twilight zone. We looked up the street. The bank's intact. There's big sheets of plate glass falling down around us. I had no idea what had happened. And Edie turned to go back into the building where it was safe. and I'm walking behind her and then I look up the street and I see the smoke rising from the Murrah building and I said, Edie, the babies. So we take off running and we get to the south side of the street and she had tennis shoes on because she was planning on going home and the parking lot was a long way from our building.

6:17I didn't. I couldn't keep up with her. I said, Edie, wait, wait, wait up. We stop at the south side of the building and we're surveying the damage and the windows were all blown out of the windows and there were blinds just dangling in the air like ruptured blood vessels it's there it was just a mess i've never seen anything like it and then we hear boom boom boom and we see this black billowing smoke and I didn't know what that was but we turned and we ran to the north side of the building and when we did it was the cars in the parking lot blowing up and I turned back to look behind me, and we saw the daycare.

7:13The Murrah building was nothing left but just a pancake pile of rubble. And my daughter falls to her knees, and she begins to cry, my babies, my babies. And Tucker, that was the first time in my daughter's life she had a problem that her mother wasn't going to be able to fix. were running through the rubble trying to find the babies. And a second bomb threat came. And people were running all away from the building. They were stampeding, trying to get away. Another bomb, another bomb. Well, we're trying to get in. And a law enforcement official grabbed us and said, you can't go in. He physically made us leave the area.

8:01we were told to go to the children's hospital that that's where they were going to take the children when they were removed from the building

8:12so at the hospital I lost all track of time but my son was an off duty police officer and he had seen his mother and sister on TV and he came downtown and he said mama don't worry I'm going to find the boys and he left and he came back and I knew when he walked through the door something was wrong and I jumped up and I said Danny, Danny what is it? What is it son? He goes mama did Colton have on little green shorts and a white shirt? And I said yes son. Yeah that's Colton. And I see the tears on his face and I said son is the baby gone? Is the baby gone? And he puts his big old arms around me and goes yeah mama I'm sorry Colton's gone.

9:07And he held me for a few minutes and then he set me in a chair and he goes mama where's Edie? Well by this time I couldn't stand watching her grieve the loss of the children. I was grieving the loss of the children. I was grieving for her. It was just horrible. and I said, son, she's around the corner in the chaplain's office. And in a few minutes, I heard a blood-curdling scream and I knew my son had found my daughter. And later that day, he found my oldest son. Grandson had also been toe-tagged. Nothing like this had ever happened in my life. I mean, this was so foreign to me. I remember Tucker telling an interviewer when asked about this, just in the weeks after the bombing, I told him, you know, it won't be very long when I tell someone I lost my grandchildren in the bombing, they'll say, which one?

10:07And haven't we come a long way? We've had so many bombings, so many school shootings, the whole world has changed. And I wouldn't believe this story about the bombing if it hadn't happened to me. I would have been one of those people. I live in la-la land. I like to be happy. I would have never believed anything like this could have happened. A few weeks after the bombing, we had a dinner at our home. I reached out to the 19 families that lost their kids were sitting in the den we're talking about our children people were saying well my little girl lost her arm and I remember one mother saying the only thing I ever seen about my baby again was his toes I got to kiss his little toes and another grandmother her baby was grandson was beheaded And then one mother speaks up and she said, well, when I dropped my son off there, I saw the bomb squad downtown.

11:19We didn't believe her. The next day. When she dropped her son off that morning, of course, before the bombing, she saw a bomb squad? She saw the bomb squad downtown there at the Murrow building when she was taking her son in. Before the bombing. Before the bomb went off. So electrolytes, that's a term people are using everywhere. suddenly and for good reason. Staying hydrated is key to health. You need electrolyte salts to do that, but what salts do you use? Well, we think the answer is Redmond Salt. Most electrolyte brands hide where their sodium comes from because the answers are a little off-putting.

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12:33Redmond.com slash Tucker, code Tucker, 15 % off, or click the link in the video description or scan the QR code on the screen. Any way you do it, enjoy it. So just to be clear for people who aren't familiar with the official version of the story, the government announced very quickly that, of course, they knew nothing about this, and it was an act of terror committed by two white supremacists veterans um timothy mcveigh and terry nichols and that was it yes just two crazy people did this crime that that was the version that was the story that was given to us yes and you know that's the one i thought i should believe of course everyone did but it's like were they down there and it made my husband so mad the next day he went down to the fire station the chief said no we didn't have our bomb squad down down there we didn't there wasn't any prior knowledge because some other people had said they'd seen the bomb squad truck with the bomb disposal unit on the back and uh so we left not knowing what to think.

13:48And then the next day we sent an article in a paper where a woman gave an interview and said the people in her office had been watching the bomb squad truck in the alleyway. And there were reports of bomb sniffing dogs through the bushes in the alleyway. I never directly talked to that person. But as my husband was leaving the fire station, the the fire dispatcher there said, I'm not going to lie for anyone. He goes, we got a memorandum in this office last week to be on high alert for terrorist activity. And after that, we found out that the federal courthouse had also gotten that same high alert.

14:34No one had ever mentioned that to us we didn't know it was a bad day to go to the murrah building and drop your kids off but the dispatcher at the fire station told your husband that i'm not gonna i'm not gonna cover this up i'm not gonna lie yeah that's what he said he said you know we got an alert to be on to be on alert for terrorist activity in downtown oklahoma city in the federal courthouse also got that same alert i mean that raises all kinds of questions um which i hope we get to in this conversation in the documentary series but i mean if they had an alert that this was coming that raises the question how would they know if it was just two random white supremacists who did this and there was not a larger conspiracy than how how would the government have had warning of this so well i know how they had their warning as I began to investigate.

15:32This was just a first baby step. This story is so big and it goes so far. And stop me if I'm telling too much, but I know how they found out. I learned about an ATF informant who was living at Elohim City. I have her documents of her reports she turned into her handler. She warned her handler that beginning in December of 1994, the informant along with two other individuals had taken trips to Oklahoma City and Tulsa to target buildings they planned to blow up. They took three trips. the handler was brand new to the job and her reports almost were just written just exactly as the informant turned them in so someone somewhere had some information there and Elohim City is a big part of it Tucker because not only was that informant warning the ATF of a possible bombing, Timothy McVeigh called there two minutes after calling the Ryder Truck Rental Company.

17:03I believe it was two weeks before the bombing. Now, he asked to speak to a fellow by the name of Andres Strasmeier. and if I was an FBI agent I would be interested in knowing what's going on at Elohim City and who this Strasmeyer is the FBI never talked to Strasmeyer they never interviewed him but they interviewed McVeigh's I don't know she was just like his fourth grade school teacher They interviewed tens of thousands of people in connection with McVeigh, but they didn't think it was important to talk to Strasmeyer. Also, Who was Strasmeyer? He was living at Elohim City, and he was taking these trips to Oklahoma and to Tulsa, planning a bombing.

18:02They were planning on bombing something. And the FBI never interviewed him. Now, he was a German national. He was a German national. A year after the bombing, after he was allowed to leave and return to Germany, they called and did a telephone interview. So, I mean, I don't know this, of course. I can't. But logically, the only reason I can think of that they wouldn't interview him would be that he was working for them. Well, that would seem logical to me. maybe it was a case if the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing I know that the ATF informant Carol Howe was indeed an informant and I know what Strassmeyer at Elihume City according to the people there that I visited with was trying to incite them to do bad things

19:01why? And why did he leave the country? and why wasn't he ever interviewed? I mean, McVeigh calls him two minutes after calling the Ryder Truck Company. There has to be some kind of connection, but he just disappeared. Is he still alive? Yes. Has he ever been interviewed by the FBI that you know of in person? Not to my knowledge, no. And there's more about Elohim City if you want to hear it. Let's go back to your story. Okay, okay. And I do want to hear it. But first I want to understand how it dawned on you in the middle of your grief, having just lost your two grandsons, that there was more going on here.

19:43So you learn that a bomb disposal squad has been seen at the site of the bombing, before the bombing. Your husband asks the fire chief, he denies it, but the dispatcher basically confirms it. That's right. What happens next? Well, next we've got the largest manhunt in American history going on for John Doe No. 2. And who is John Doe No. 2? The accomplice. He's Timothy McVeigh's accomplice that the FBI was looking for him. First they were looking for John Doe 1 and John Doe 2. They found John Doe 1 from the VIN number off of the vehicle. So they traced him back to Junction City. The Ryder truck that exploded that had the bomb in it, the ammonium nitrate fuel oil bomb, exploded, of course.

20:38But the axle from the truck had the VIN number. Had the VIN number on it. And then the registration and the information they got from the Ryder truck company, they located Timothy McVeigh. but according to the people where they rented the truck there were two men and so there was a John Doe 2 and so there was this largest manhunt in American history for John Doe 2 two million dollar reward and in just a couple of weeks the FBI said you know what it was all a mistake there is no John Doe number two and that Eldon at the body shop was mistaken well you know I maybe I could have dropped it at that but we started investigating early on when I thought something was wrong and I finally went down to I talked to Stephen Jones McVeigh's defense attorney.

21:44And I said, look, if you want to point the finger at the other people that were involved, I'll help you. And so I worked with his investigators, McVeigh's investigators. So I was privy to documents. That's how I found out about Carol Howe, the informant. The ATF informant. The ATF informant. That's why I had access to her documents. That's how I knew that there were way over 20 people that had seen Timothy McVeigh downtown that morning in the presence of this John Doe II. I had their 302 witness statements. I went and talked to them. There was Rodney Johnson, the catering guy, delivery guy. He sees McVeigh with a guy walking across the street.

22:44There's Jeff Davis, the delivery boy that delivered Chinese food to McVeigh's room in Junction City. It wasn't McVeigh that he gave the food to, and there was another man in the room. There were Dana Bradley. she was on the first floor of the Murrah building with her mother, her sister, and her two children. When the bomb went off, it killed her mother and her two children. She fell down to the basement. You'll remember she was pinned in the rubble, and they had to cut her leg off to get her out of the rubble. She tells the FBI, and I watch her testify at the courtroom, that she and her sister were people watching.

23:38They were just standing there in front of the windows of the Social Security waiting for their number to be called, and they're just watching people go by, and they're kind of making fun of someone. I don't remember what it was, but they were just people watching and killing time. And they see the truck drive up. They see McVeigh get out, and they see someone get out of the passenger side and take off running. And at the trial, the FBI said, Well, she doesn't know what she's talking about because she's been traumatized. Imagine crawling into bed and you feel like you're floating and then wake up rested with no soreness from a stiff mattress.

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24:51They also offer a 120-night sleep trial. That means you can return your mattress if you're not in love with it. We don't expect that to happen. Brooklyn Bedding has been awarded the best mattress by CNET, the best hybrid mattress by Wirecutter. Lots of people love it. Check it out. BrooklynBedding.com. Use the promo code Tucker at checkout for 30 % off site-wide during the fall sale. It's BrooklynBedding.com, promo code Tucker, 30 % off site-wide. And if you see a survey after checkout, let them know who sent you, which is us. there's just dozens of people that uh that saw mcveigh downtown with other people and what's really mystifying if you were prosecuting timothy mcveigh wouldn't you call a witness that could place him at the crime scene you would the prosecution didn't because every witness they had that saw mcveigh downtown that morning at the crime scene saw him with another guy Mike Morose at Johnny's Tires.

25:53McVeigh drives up there. Mike comes out to his car to greet him, and McVeigh jumps out of the truck like he's keeping Mike away from the truck, and he's asking for directions to the corner of 5th and Harvey. And then he jumps back in his truck, and he sits there a few more minutes. Mike watches him as he and the other guy drive off. Danny Wilkinson worked at the Regency Tower, just one block and across the street from the Murrah Building. The truck pulls up. McVeigh comes inside, according to Danny Wilkinson. He buys two Cokes and a package of Marlboro Reds. McVeigh didn't smoke. so he obviously had someone with him.

26:47The list just goes on and on but John Doe II was totally dismissed. He never happened. And when we were talking about the bomb squad being downtown I had access to the payroll records from the ATF. there were ATF agents brought in the night before the bombing. They will admit that they were working on a sting operation, but they won't admit that it was at the Murrah building. My theory is perhaps, and this is just a theory based on the evidence I've gathered, but perhaps they knew the building was going to be blown up and the information they had was the building would be blown up in the wee hours of the night.

27:42When no one came to blow up the building, they called the bomb squad to give a clean sweep and then they let everybody enter. I mean, I don't know. I can't explain a lot of things. I don't know everything, but I think I know a lot more than some people inside the government wish I knew. Well, that's obvious from the way they responded to you. So you got a visit from the ATF to your home, correct? We did. After, on May the 23rd, 1995, they imploded the Murrow building. And there was a lot of dissension about that. There were some that didn't want it imploded and some that said it needed to be. But by this time, see, that's been a month after the bombing, and we're really hitting hard and heavy now because we're thinking things are not right.

28:35We're making accusations and bringing things to light about the John Doe II and this stuff going on, and we're really getting kind of scared. So we're thinking when we go down there and we see that building, we're going to let reporters know that we think there's a problem. So I remember a CNN reporter came over to my daughter and said, Edie what do you think about the the bomb or the building being imploded and she goes I want to know where the hell was the ATF why weren't they in that building and she just went off on them and so the next day Pat Ryan the head of ATF a couple of ATF agents and including one Luke Franey, they came because they wanted to calm us down, that everything was okay.

29:29And they told us the ATF wasn't there because they were at a golf tournament that was happening that morning. Luke Franey, his hands bandaged up and he tells us his harrowing story about how he had to karate chop his way out of the building because he was stranded on the ninth floor. and that's how he hurt his hand. Later, I found the sheriff's video of Luke shaking hands with the sheriff. So I don't know how bad his hand was hurt. I don't know. It just kept your mind wondering. But the thing that caused me the greatest concern about Luke Franey was the AP reporter had a picture of him on the ninth floor.

30:19He's holding a little silver lock box. And 168 dead people behind him or underneath him. He's standing there with this silver lock box, shaking it. And there's 168 dead people below him and all these hundreds of walking wounded. And I'm thinking, man, whatever's in that box has got to be really important. went to Franey. We asked, what'd you have in that box? Oh, I'm sorry, I can't talk about it, can't tell you. Well, then Hal Francis, a former FBI agent that was working on a story that is an acquaintance of mine, I told him about this. He took Luke Franey out for lunch, and he asked about that lockbox and Luke Franey told him, oh, it was$150 worth of my kids' savings bonds.

31:19Why couldn't he tell me that? And would you really be 168 dead people below you and all that walking wounded and you're trying to save the lockbox with your children's savings bonds? That just didn't add up. See, I'm a simple person. two plus two equals four the facts of this case do not lead up to there was one bomber that came into oklahoma city and blew the building up terry nichols was in harrington kansas the morning of the bombing you know they're gary terry nichols nichols is the convicted accomplice of Timothy McVeigh, who was executed, Terry Nichols remains in prison. That's right. And there was a third one, Michael Fortier.

32:08But Fortier cut a plea deal with the government. And he was every bit as guilty as Terry Nichols. But he only had to spend 10 years in prison. And he was caught lying under oath three different occasions. and he got a plea deal for his wife. She never spent a night in prison and she testified at McVeigh's trial how she sit at the kitchen table and watched McVeigh show her with Campbell's soup cans how he was going to put the barrels in the back of the truck to blow up the building. So Fortier spent 10 years in prison and when he got out, he is now in the witness protection program. Who are they protecting him from?

32:57things just don't add up. So Fortier has never given an interview that you're aware of? No, no. Have you ever spoken to him? No, I took his wife out for dinner, though. I went to Kingman, Arizona, and we went to the damn bar. And I said, you know, I'd like for you to tell me about your part in the bombing. You know, I know about you sitting with McVeigh and doing the barrels. And she begins to cry and said, I'm sorry, I can't tell you. My lawyer told me I can't talk about it. And I said, well, okay, if you can't tell me how the bombing affected you, let me tell you how it affected me. And I pulled out pictures of Chase and Colton, and I told her how different our lives were and the tragedy that we've been through.