Tucker’s Brother Buckley Carlson on Dogs, Childhood, Nicotine, Frank Luntz and America’s Future

26:11And if you don't feel like ordering online, you can buy them nationwide at your local Sprouts supermarket. Stop by and pick up a couple of bags before somebody else does. Hey, I'm Josh Spiegel, host of the podcast Lunatic in the Newsroom. If you enjoy journalism that drifts into mild panic, wild overthinking, and a guaranteed nervous breakdown, Lunatic in the Newsroom is for you. It's news like you've never heard before. The only newsroom with a panic button. You'll laugh, you'll cry, and gasp in horror as the show spirals completely out of control. It's not just news, it's emotionally unstable.

26:46Lunatic in the Newsroom. Listen today. first. So I should just say for the record that you were scoffed at for having the pro-life, pro-God, pro-gun, anti-Obama bumper sticker. At a Christian school. At a Christian school, right? No pro-God, no pro-life at a Christian school. But then you decided to take your defiance another click up the ladder by driving your son to school on a big twin Harley in carpool line, which I personally saw. He was like a little kid, and there'd be all these Range Rovers and Volvos. He'd be like, there's Uncle Buck with the ape hangers. I had him strapped to my chest with a bungee cord.

27:30It was safe. No, it was. I mean, safe is a relative term. In our families, we know, there's no such thing as safety. There's only destiny. We both believe that. Safe, okay, but it wasn't even a safety violation. It was like a cultural violation. Yes. And all the moms, you could tell they were a little bit turned on, but also very kind of like, oh, what is this? Why did she? I saw that with my own eyes many times. What was the thinking there? Pure celebration of joy and freedom. That's it. That's how I try to live my life. You're called to be joyful. In fact, In fact, you're commanded to be joyful.

28:14I totally agree with that. You are. You are. What is that? Susie has that thing all over our house. First Thessalonians, rejoice always, never stop praying. Yes. That's my favorite. Right. No, you're absolutely right. And Philippians 4.4, which is always be full of joy in the Lord. I say again, rejoice. Yeah. Yeah. That's just such a wonder. It's funny that that's triggering to people. Whatever it was, you were triggering people. And I felt like it was such an act of bravery because it's one thing to like, you know, stand up at the Congress and say something unpopular or even like go into battle.

28:51But to stand apart from your neighbors at the$50 ,000 a year Episcopal School in Northwest Washington where there's just so much conformity. Yes. That ticks balls. Well, I appreciate it. I don't think I really thought of it that way. I'm so used to, I don't know, I've lived my life. We were, as you said, we grew up that way. What do you mean? Because I did say, okay, so I haven't looked at a lot of your, I'm not on Twitter that much because it's too upsetting to me. But I did go and check your Twitter feed, which I thought was amazing. But some of the responses are like, oh, of course you feel this way because you had such a horrible childhood.

29:30It's like, wait a second. People are very personal that way. Attacking your childhood. What did you think of your child, without getting too specific, but you described it as happy. I actually had the best childhood. I'm really sorry for our children. They didn't have the childhood that we had. I agree with that. Because it was just a lesson and adventure all the time. You could define your own boundaries. As long as you went to school, you were respectful to your parents and you showed up for dinner. There were really no other boundaries. Nope. Nothing. That was it. And I loved you, and I loved our father, and I loved our mother.

30:16So we had a happy home life, and it was creative and interesting. It was in a beautiful part of the world that was at that time very well run in California. In fact, I think it was the cleanest, most efficient state in all 50. And it was obviously the center of creativity. in the country and in the world. And it was fantastically beautiful everywhere. I mean, it has every single climate. We lived near the beach and we got to go swimming in the ocean and we had a bunch of dogs and we got to explore. We got to explore with our friends and experiment. And we also went, I'm sure you recall, it was a much different time.

31:00We could actually walk across the border into Tijuana, Mexico.

31:07and engage in all sorts of interesting... It wasn't the most wholesome place. No, it really wasn't. I was suddenly thinking, is Revolution Avenue still around? Is it still accessible to American kids? I think the whole thing is so different now. Not in Tijuana a lot, but I think it's bigger than San Diego. It's controlled by the drug cartels. I don't know. I shouldn't say that. I've never been against Mexico. I've always liked Mexico. Obviously, Mexico has done more harm to the United States than any other country, not even close, but I still like Mexicans and I still just have happy memories from Mexico.

31:38I'm like, we'll never be against it just for, I don't know, reasons of memory. But I wouldn't go there to Tijuana. No, and I wouldn't send my 12-year-old child there either. No, but we were, that's right. We were allowed to do basically whatever we wanted as long as we, you know, were polite and family loyalty was at the center of everything, of course. Yes, yes. And it was interesting. Our father was involved in so many interesting pursuits. He had interesting friends. Yes. Our friends were interesting. He included us. He treated us like adults where it was appropriate. I guess all the time. All the time.

32:18He taught us invaluable things that no one teaches their children anymore. That's for sure. I mean, yeah. And you've used the word creativity a couple of times. It felt to me looking back, I never have thought about it until recently, is I see the decline in creativity and the awards given to people who are totally non-creative, which is almost everyone in our professional class, like zero creativity. And the creative people are penalized. And that's made me think that maybe the saddest change is the disappearance of creativity and the abundance of it in our childhood. Like that was, wait, I never heard anybody, certainly not our father, ever talk about how rich someone was.

32:56Who gives a shit? Ever, plus no one noticed. Everybody was pretty much in the same boat. We lived in an expensive area. We had a nice house, but it was not absurd. No one had$5 million houses. No one had$50 million houses either. There wasn't such a thing. No, there was literally not such a thing. So the measure was, and there was much less economic anxiety, obviously. It was a different economy, but still the values were different. And creativity, the ability to create something out of nothing, that was like really prized. Yes, especially if your father gave you the, what was the James Bond cookbook?

33:31And what was the other one? Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. I guess they're illegal now. I'm sorry. Well, he had a library. First of all, he had a real library, like almost a public library in our house. And he'd read every book in it. And he was very serious about it. And it was talk about Catholic tastes. I mean, broad tastes, universal interests. He's just like nothing he wasn't interested in. And there was a book about every possible thing. And there was a ton of extremist literature on all sides. He didn't buy any. He wasn't like he was an extremist. He was not an extremist at all, but he was like really interested in knowing what people thought and why.

34:03And this revolution happened and he hated the Soviets, but he had tons of Soviet propaganda literature, which was interesting. Yes. He had tons of left wing and right wing, mostly left wing, actually. And he was not left wing, but. That was back when they were creative, when people on the left actually. Right. Were artists and thinkers and they were open minded. He would always defend people whose politics he hated if they were creative. if he would say, this guy's an asshole, I think these ideas are horrible, but man, look at the songs he wrote or the novels he produced. Do you remember that?

34:36Yes, very well, clearly, yes. Like that counted in your favor? Yes. Huh. And that's kind of gone. It seems like it. So I didn't even know this until you, I can't believe we're actually doing this interview. I'm so glad, but. I'm so glad too. Thank you. Could I ask you an ALB question, by the way? Of course. It's the best nicotine product in the universe. Why, thank you, Buck. I'm glad you noticed. And yes, I did. And I'm generally, this is the problem I have. When I'm talking, I'm generally double barreling or sometimes triple barreling. Those are nines? Yes. I'm looking forward to the twelves.

35:13So on the question of nicotine, would you say, and I know it's hard to assess yourself, but would you say you dick around? If I like it, I like it. I really like this a lot. Although it's, so this is the question I have. Where does one tuck it? I know where people tuck the Zin. Yeah, yeah. I get that. They stuff it. Yes, they stuff it. By the way, they should be more upfront on the labeling on the Zin. I know. They should actually tell you that. That's why it tastes like shit. That's why it's like dehydrated. They forgot to tell you it needs mucosa, but a particular type of mucosa to activate.

35:50Yeah, they got it wrong. I think they're expecting the Bangladeshi guy in the convenience store to tell you. to hand you the KY and the surgical glove and just be like, I think you know how this works. It's like when they have those little crack pipes at the counter with the flour in them and they're like, no, it's not a crack pipe. I think they're, it's an incense burner. It's a whistle. So I think they're expecting like, if you're using Zin, you know how this works. Yes, exactly. You know what I mean? That's a good point. So I actually feel like a bit of an amateur asking this, but I talk to people and all of a sudden, I feel like my Biden, my upper palate is coming out.

36:28Your Biden? My Biden, you know, like the fake teeth I have up here. Anyway, sorry. I try to rotate them around because there are parts of my gums that get neglected. Yes. I believe in kind of sharing the wealth. Yes. Plus, there are different taste buds throughout the entire topography of your tongue and cheek. Well, it wasn't that long ago that many Americans thought they were inherently safe from the kinds of disasters you hear about all the time in third world countries. A total power loss, for example, or people freezing to death in their own homes. That could never happen here. Obviously, it's America.

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40:10But we never had anything like that. It was a pure meritocracy in our house with a quality at the center of it. The most intuitive accidental father there has ever been. I mean, this was a man who did not strive to be a dad. No. And he ended up being pretty much the best father ever. The details of my conception have always been a little bit hazy, but I did get the... I don't think they were legal. I don't want to know. And I'm sure they were creative. Everyone's dead, So it doesn't matter. I know. I can't. Sorry. I can't even think about it. But my strong impression just from like comments picked up over the years is that it was not intentional at all.

40:49Like the whole thing was not intentional. I got that sense. It was intentional by God. Yeah. It was God's plan. I totally agree with that. The closest I ever got to asking Pop about it was he obviously married like a complete lunatic. And he was such a smart person and he really understood women and loved women and really paid close attention to women. Boy, did they love him. They loved him. He loved them, not just in carnal ways, but he thought they were really interesting and listened to them all the time. And he had such deep wisdom about women. And so I once said to him - Boy, isn't that true.

41:17He was the deepest on women. And it was out of love, like true love. He thought they were amazing. And he also loved them in other ways, but whatever. But anyway, I once said to him, given your deep knowledge of women, how could you have married a really crazy one? How did you do that? And he goes, they're upsets. That's all he said. I was like, ah, I don't want to hear anymore. It was clearly never boring. Right. No, I guess that was it. You know, I'd go with, yeah. Well, they're never boring once you engage with them. They're like amazing. But she had a lot to say. Yeah. Especially in public settings.

41:51Yeah, I can't. Yeah, I can't imagine. Yeah, I can't even get it. I'm sorry. I don't even know where we were. Oh, so one thing I want to ask you was when we were kids and like everyone in our family, I know this is like so forbidden. This is more forbidden than Israel, but like everyone in our family smoked cigarettes. like everybody and everyone they knew smoked cigarettes and like the question was filter or non-filter and of course our family was strongly on the non-filter side because like gay or straight yeah I mean come on they used to call them straights for a reason yes I remember camel straights are the best cigarette ever made yeah that's literally true and Pop would always say it's important not to have a filter in your cigarette because when you're behind enemy lines you can field strip it you can field strip it you can field strip it you break the butt done it many times roll up the paper flick it away, then the enemy will never know you were smoking American cigarettes.

42:41They'd only know you're American if you died and they saw your dental work. It didn't make a lot of sense, but anyway, in our family, people were very strongly in favor of cigarettes and tobacco. It sounds so forbidden now. And then we were all convinced this is so bad because America's killing itself. And if we can only get people off this, everyone's going to live forever. Is it a little weird? And I don't smoke. I'm not endorsing smoking that strongly, but - I'm considering going back. I know I am too, actually. But whatever. And for this - I reached yesterday, I literally stepped over a dog.

43:19I was talking to my girl. Stepped over a dog to join her in a booth in a restaurant, and I reached in my pocket to grab my Zippo. It's been 12 years since I've had a Zippo in my pocket. Seriously. I was about to light of smoke. We'd had a pizza. It was fantastic. And I was like, I know what's going to cap this off. A camel straight. Can you even buy them anymore? Even in South Carolina. I'm lying. I actually know. Even in tobacco states, do you know how much it costs? Oh my gosh. For a deck of cigarettes? How much? It's 12 bucks in South Carolina. It's$21 in the District of Columbia. Yeah. 21 bucks for a deck of smokes.

43:55I walked into a Circle K the other day. My girl still smokes. God bless her. And I walked in and I bought her some cigarettes and the guy said, ID. And I laughed. I pulled out my wallet and I said, it's funny. What's funny? And I said, that's what the guy said. I said, well, I've been buying cigarettes since I was 11 and they cost a dollar. Do you think it's funny to make fun of people in the retail business? I said, dude, I'm not making fun of you. I'm making fun of the stupid rules. Yeah. Yeah. You had no sense of humor. But you can buy benzodiazepines cheap. You can buy weed in any store. You can buy it online.

44:37You're encouraged to smoke pot. You're encouraged to do mushrooms. You're encouraged to do mezcal or any other stuff. But you're the greatest pariah in America. You're probably encouraged. Well, you are encouraged to like have a touchy-feely love with the people in your gender. but if you're a cigarette smoker, you're literally the dirtiest pariah in America. Actually, that attitude is overwhelming now, but it was still around 12 years ago when I quit smoking. And if it hadn't been, I would have quit smoking probably 15 years ago. I would have. I mean, I got, I mean, the obvious. So you smoked in defiance.

45:15I did. I smoked aggressively with joy. I did. I loved smoking and it made me smarter. It made me nicer. made me a lot happier. Not only your constant companion, but also like a self-defense weapon or an aggressive weapon. If you've got a lit cigarette on you, you're a force to be reckoned with, I would say. Plus, are you ever alone when you have a cigarette? No. You sound so much like our father because of course he did once wield a cigarette in self-defense. I had to do that too. You did it too? I most certainly did. Maybe. Not on someone's cheek, But on their wrist, I held their hand because he was holding my hand.

45:56I remember. It was like my second job. And he was a guy who had a married guy, Christian, self-avowed, loudly, Christian. And he had cute kids and a nice wife. And he like put his hand on my knee. I said, can you move your hand, please? And he didn't. Oh, he was hitting on you? Yeah, at a company picnic. Like the first week I was on the job. And I said, please remove your hand from my knee. And he didn't. So I grabbed his hand, grabbed his wrist and put my cigarette out on his hand. It was a Saturday afternoon and I had had some cocktails, but I also felt completely justified in doing that. I did.

46:37He pulled his hand away. And I remember, sorry to go down this rabbit hole, but I thought about it soberly on Sunday and Monday morning as I was going into the office and that there could be real repercussions for doing this. He was like the chief of staff of the organization. It was a political organization and he wielded a lot of power. And I went in and I remember I was doing some copying some document and I was standing in the break room next to the Xerox machine. And he came up to me and he said, I can't believe you put a cigarette out of my hand. I said, I can't believe you touched me and you wouldn't let go.

47:12That was it. And we had like a staring contest. And then he like, you know, his lip girl and he looked down and walked out. I never heard anything about it. He never told anyone. Right? So I think it is fair. I think that's called gay bashing. No, I think you are recklessly or, yeah, you're without proper defense when you don't have a cigarette. You should have a cigarette with you at all times, even if you don't smoke. That's my attitude. Seriously, I want to bring back smoking. Because actually smoking without the filter is probably pretty flipping good for you. I have a lot of views on this.

47:51I don't want to articulate because I don't want to seem crazy, but I tend to... I'm sorry. I mean, we were certainly raised thinking that and our father considered filters like a really bad thing. And, you know, smoking does, you know, whatever. Our real mother died of lung cancer. You know, you can... And she smoked on filtered Pell-Mells. She engaged in some other activities. Yeah, well, that's... It may have been responsible for her cancer. I think when you're in the dark side and you get cancer... It makes sense. What do you mean? I think if you lead a life of extreme narcissism. Yes. And you are completely self-focused.

48:31And one, it's unhealthy. Two, it's unhealthy outlook. And the people around you suffer. Yes. But I can't imagine you as an individual don't suffer. And now that I'm 54 and I'm old enough to actually witness people who've lived their lives this way. And I mean self-focused all the time. Not one of them is healthy. Physically, mentally, it kills something in someone. It's like, I'm not to attack people who aren't able to have children, but men who've chosen not to have children. They reach a certain age and they are intractable in ways that are damaging to them and those around them. she was not a man, but she had that same problem.

49:18And I think, I think she like... Was drowning in Lake Me. Yeah. Drowning in Lake Me. Exactly. Totally asphyxiated on herself. So you've made reference to dogs. You've conceded that you have five. You think five is the perfect number. You were describing your childhood and you pointed out the presence, the omnipresence of dogs. And as a highlight, why are dogs important? well dogs I think I've thought a lot about this aspect raising children with dogs I think it's important because your children are the center of your universe as they should be but the last thing you want to do is convey that to your children so I mean that's a good way to fuck up your children so having dogs around and instills in them my first loving relationships were with my very small family of which you're half and dogs.

50:13We had a lot of dogs around all the time. All the time. And there are people, I mean, have written endlessly and talked endlessly about how wonderful dogs are, but I don't think they talk enough about how wise dogs are and how dogs are clued into like a communications channel that most people are not picking up. My dogs know what I'm going to do long before I do it. They know exactly my intentions. It's weird. If I'm working in my office and I've got four dog beds in my office underneath the bed, underneath the desk. And if I get up to go... Where does the fifth dog go? Three of them are shamefully small.

50:57So two of them, anybody else's brood, I'd say those are pseudo dogs. But actually, one of my small dogs is an incredible, relentless, actually, you know her. She was a gift from you. Yes. She is... A hunting dog. That's my defense. She's a hunting dog. She's got autism. Yep. Bad. She is the most well-meaning. Yes, she is. She means well. 100 % good-natured. Yep. Pretty good in the quail field, I will say. Yep. She also has unerring aim. She will hit you right in center mass every time she sees you. I have more scars from that dog on my face. In fact, in the morning when I wake up, I now have started putting lightning collars on three of the five before I even let them into the backyard, which is actually kind of impressive because it's dark.

51:45I've had no coffee. I'm usually naked. And I'm affixing lightning collars to three dogs, one of whom continually bounces up and slams me in the face with her snout. Yeah. It's amazing. Anyway, dogs are an endless, endless source of joy and affection. Well, actually, even today I was telling, because it's Christmas or everyone's at the house, or a lot of people at the house, your relatives are at the house, and Uncle Buck's coming. Oh, is he bringing? Because I've never seen you travel, I don't think, a single time ever in life without at least one dog. You always bring at least one dog. But you're dogless today.

52:20She's kind of vocal, and she's not very respectful to expensive camera equipment or genitals. Yeah, no. So if I was a smoker, it'd be great because then I'd keep her at bay. But all she'd need is about 6 ,000 cigarette burns and then maybe she'll... No, I know. I don't think that would work. No, I don't think it would either. But you are surrounded by dogs. You work with dogs. As I just said, you travel with dogs. You are inseparable in the minds of everyone who knows you from dogs. They have great insight, you said. That's one of the main reasons they improve our lives. I think so. I mean, I talk to my dogs and they understand me.

53:02My dogs have actually a better understanding of the English language than I think most people I deal with outside of this room. they're so much smarter than people give them credit for and wise and kind and of course it does remind me of the the great little joke lock your dog and your wife in the trunk of the car come back after three days and see who's grateful the answer to that is always not your wife um so they're forgiving they are they are actually the essence of purity i think they're even though they're capable, they're not capable of artifice. A dog will never pretend to be happy when it's not.

53:47And they have no sense of vanity. They're perfectly willing to display their immediate and current emotion at all times. And their emotions are almost exclusively loving. Now, I have a predator. I have a three-legged predator. What a wonderful, wonderful description. Boy, I couldn't have matched that. Well, it's true, don't you think? Oh, it's so true. I mean, I have five dogs at my house right now, too. I'll just admit. You're winning the grand dog competition, I would say. I'm not about to render an opinion about which is best, but my gosh. And can I just say, not to make this into a cultural thing, and I know that there are other, I'm sure that there are other cultures that feel the same way.

54:31I don't know what they might be, but the culture that we grew up in, which was a culture, was, I mean, none of these were even questioned. Like dogs and other things, politeness, bravery, loyalty, but dogs were in that lit. Like that was just unquestioned. Dogs were at the center of the culture, not just the family, but the culture we grew up in. Very much so. Oh, very much so. I never saw our father cry except when our dogs died. Yes, that's correct. I got a little more emotional as I've gotten older. So I've occasionally shed a tear about something other than a dog dying. But I've never been as affected by death as my various dogs' death.

55:13And I'm also convinced 100 % that my capacity for joy is less than it was before my last dog died. But I'm also convinced 100 % that we will see them all again. I am convinced of that too. We will be reunited. I have a particular dog that you know who was, what's the phrase you use, a lifetime dog or the special dog. And now you agree that everyone has one of those. If you have enough dogs, there's always a dog where you're like, ooh, I'm never going to have a dog like this again. Yes. And boy, do I love my dogs. And unlike raising children where you could never indicate which one of your children is your favorite, not that that ever exists.

55:58No. With dogs, I think it's completely the opposite. And my strategy is to convey to each and every one of my dogs privately that they are my favorite. So every one of my dogs is going around being like, I'm dad's favorite. I know you engage in a little bit of that. You've got to. Anyway. I do that with my children, by the way. I think they all have that impression. I hope so. They are. But yeah, you had a dog. You had that lifetime dog. I have many pictures of that dog on my phone because I, not my dog, but I did, I felt real love for that dog. And my favorite picture of that dog was called Bella, was in the dog park, in the Rich Lady Dog Park, directly across the street from our house in Washington, that we both used every day.

56:49And there are always a million ladies in the park. You know, they're all nice. I don't want to attack anybody, but they're all a little bit uptight. Yes. Went to HBS, but now they're staying home to raise their kids very methodically. That kind of thing. Let me look it up. Let me look it up. And your dogs have never kind of been with that program at all. They're off-leash dogs. They are off-leash dogs. And that one dog was an amazing hunter, Finnish Spitz. Yes. And this dog had killed a squirrel and has in her mouth this squirrel. It was like, you know, quite. It was a black squirrel. A black squirrel.

57:22And she was this deep, beautiful red. And just the contrast from a photographic perspective was powerful. I had that on my screensaver for years until my son got old enough to notice that his picture wasn't on there. Can I tell my one dog park story, which is like family lore, which is like my favorite story, which I've told at many dinner parties about you? Which one? It's not a bad one. No, so you were at, so in D.C., of course, our parks, it's a federal zone, so our parks are policed by park police, actual park police. Oh, yes, they are. Yes, sometimes on horseback. Yes. And this specific dog park was, I mean, when I say it was across the street from my house, like I could see it from my bed, it was right there.

58:07But it was extensive. It went miles, actually. We have an amazing park system in Washington. And this was called Battery Kimball Park. It was a Civil War battery. Beautiful park, beautiful part of the city. And you would walk your dogs in there every day and you had a million dogs as always and you never leashed them because you're a free man and this is America. And they're well-behaved. They don't bother other people. Well, generally. Pretty responsive dogs they are. Yeah, they cull the wildlife a little bit. Oh, that's for sure. Well, that's, I don't know, that's sort of your responsibility when you're walking.

58:39It is the food chain, isn't it? Like, I'm sorry, if you can't handle it, get out of the park. Dude, I'm with you. And I remember when this happened, but like every woman in the neighborhood is probably still talking about it. Oh, this is in a city rife with all sorts of other crime. So every time, I know it's not this story, but every time I was accosted by someone, and the next door that's silly next door online thing. Right. Pre-COVID in a city that has overwhelming physical and property crimes, the most prevalent complaint on that listserv, oh, I saw someone walking without a leash and this is a terrible thing.

59:18Literally, that would garner the most commentary from any next door post. We need better rich people in this country. Yes. That's the number one thing we need. Yes. yes well they need some hardship because complaining about shit like that is not only picayune but like repulsive it is repulsive I totally agree and they have no self-awareness at all and they're all like that but anyway my universal response I'm sorry to interrupt you my universal response to them and to authorities who would occasionally encost me would be I'm so relieved you've solved all the other problems in DC all the other crimes there are no rapes there are no armed robberies CVS isn't being ransacked on a daily basis like Thank you.

59:57I really appreciate it. I'm so glad you solved that problem. Now we can deal with lesser crimes like leashes. My gosh. They did not appreciate the lecture. No, they didn't. And after many such lectures from you, they decided to arrest you, and they told you that if we catch you again without a leash, you're going to jail, sir. Sir. And then you get approached by a couple of these officers, I think on horseback. I was walking through a beautiful meadow at about 1030 in the morning, absolutely deserted. And I had four dogs with me. And we got all the way to the end of the meadow and I heard someone say, hey, hey, someone clearly yelling, not in, not like they needed help, but like they were trying to get my attention.

1:00:41I'm sorry, I don't respond to that. And so I turned and I saw it was on a slope, this meadow, and I could see these blue helmets coming up the meadow. So the horses weren't even visible. Helmets. Helmets. So I kept walking. You and peacekeepers. Exactly. So I kept walking and then I was in the middle of the forest on a small, beautiful path. And I kept hearing this female, male voice, hard to determine, was rather masculine. But also feminine. Flippin' hysterical, so it could only have been a soy boy with a gun or a very masculine chick. And it was. It turned out to be three cops, three park policemen on beautiful, very expensive horses with tidy helmets on.

1:01:30And they yelled at me for a good half mile. They finally caught up to me. And when they were about, when this trio was about - But you made them just like yell at you and chase you? You completely ignored them. I'm sorry. It's my park. I'm a federal taxpayer. I also live in D.C. This is right. Don't we fund that park? We fund their salaries. I'm sorry. I have a bit of a sense of entitlement about two things, nicotine and dogs. Yeah. And that's it. And this was so I was minding my own business in our park. And so they were persistent and yelling. And when they got to be about 75 yards away, she lost her cool completely.

1:02:09and she yelled and said, stop or I'll tase your dog.

1:02:17I'll tase your dog. So, I'm sorry, that's just too much for me. So, I said, yelled, because they were still far away. I said, you're not going to fucking tase my dog. You do that, you know, the real problem. And so, they were taken aback by it a little bit. And they finally came. They hadn't met a man in a while in D.C.? I guess not. I mean, too busy solving all the other crimes. so they got they finally got up to me and it was a very authoritative squat muscular woman who was the authority figure and then two men men and who were embarrassed and i made them further embarrassed because i said this first of all don't speak to me like that don't ever speak to me like that don't threaten my child and um she didn't like that but she backed down a little bit i actually had the moral authority.

1:03:11I was in the right, and they were absolutely in the wrong. And I did what you're supposed to do in a situation like that, is I met and exceeded their aggression. Significantly. And to the point where I asked their badge numbers, asked their full names, give it to me now, pulled out my phone. I was totally obnoxious, but also in the right. And I said to those men, how can you tolerate this? She's your boss. She's telling you. Oh, and these guys literally, at the end of it, this is probably a three or four minute exchange, and they gave up, and they walked away. And I was on this beautiful ledge that had railroad ties every three or four feet going down into this stream, into this valley.

1:03:56You'd have no idea you're in the middle of D.C. It was such a lovely sanctuary. It's an incredible park. It's incredible. And they went ahead of me. She in the front steamed, literally coming off her. And then these two extremely embarrassed men and they started going down. Well, their horses decided this would be a great opportunity to leave some indelible artwork on the path. And a horse, when a horse goes to the bathroom, it's not a subtle thing. No. Especially when they're walking down a hill. So they deposited, I don't know, 26, 27 pounds of artwork right there on the path. And they had to go slow because it was one of these winding paths with railroad ties.

1:04:40And they were stuck. So they were like slowly trying to go down. And I was yelling at them the whole time. Hey, pick that up. What's wrong with you? I can't believe you're leaving that behind. Who's going to clean up after you? Oh, I am so surprised. Actually, they did not shoot me. I was expecting it. Actually, I really was. It was worth it. It was so worth it. And actually, I was enraged. I was still enraged to the point where, excuse me, my Biden's coming out again.

1:05:09By the time I got back to my car, and that was probably 15 minutes later, I remember this clearly. I had gone to one of the best sandwich stops. I had a meeting downtown, and I was running my dogs first. and it was, I had stopped and I'd gotten some clam chowder from Beau Blair's place. I can't think. Jetties. From Jetties. And I had a container of clam chowder. Yeah, they had good chowder. So agitated. Even by the time I got back to my car, which was like 15 or 20 minutes later, I opened up the top of the clam chowder and promptly launched it into the air where it came and landed on my dashboard directly in the air conditioning unit.

1:05:51In fact, that Chevy Tahoe smelled like clam chowder for literally the next three years. It was disgusting. Until Patrick flipped it on an ice cream. Until Patrick flipped it and broke his neck. But I don't normally hold on to anger for very long. I've got like a reasonably quick wick and I can get pretty hot, but it dissipates fast. This didn't, I was still mad 20, 25 minutes later. And I drove, I think I pushed my meeting back. I had to drive downtown. I think I texted them. It was like, I had a bit of an emergency. I'm going to be a half an hour late. And I drove around the entire perimeter, at least that western perimeter of that park, looking for the telltale sign of the horse carriage.

1:06:29Because I actually really did want to record their names and make a formal complaint, not that it would have gone anywhere, but write a piece about it, I don't know. But it would have made me happier. I didn't find them. I looked for them. So everyone, I should say for the fifth time in our tiny little, very cohesive neighborhood where we spent most of our lives and know every single person, almost everybody disapproved of this kind of behavior from you because it was disruptive and like it wasn't, you weren't getting in line with everybody. I never, of course, felt that way because we grew up together with the same attitudes.

1:07:01But now I think that if like eight more people in our neighborhood and 800 ,000 more people in our country had taken that attitude, we'd be in much better shape than we are now. Amen, amen. Three more people would have been able to dominate that town, dominate that neighborhood with that attitude. You're totally right. Because people are, I'm not some great student of human behavior, but I do observe it. And I think that people, again, as we talked about earlier, I think people who are cowardly hate themselves for it. Yes. And are hostile towards those who express themselves or embrace their freedom.

1:07:39In America? Land of the free, home of the brave? Like, I mean, not anymore, clearly. And, but I think there, people are waiting to be galvanized by someone who's willing to say, I'm not saying I'm that person, But they need someone to rally around. Trump was obviously that guy. That's obviously part of Trump's appeal, that he was that, you know, hey, fuck you. This is what I believe and I'm not going to back down kind of guy. And I think our country used to be full of people like that. Yes, it did. And they were real heroes in this country. This country didn't have an easy time of it for the first couple hundred years.

1:08:22and the only people who exercised real power and authority were men who were courageous and willing to speak their mind and willing to follow through also and kind to other people. But whatever, leadership qualities that you just don't see in America that often. I don't, I mean - I couldn't agree more. And one of the hallmarks of that kind of society is decency. One of the things you notice about brave men, our father being the bravest person I think either of us ever met, who was totally - 84 years old, never saw him one time express fear in any situation. In any situation. Physically, intellectually, nothing.

1:08:57I saw a few where, you know, he could have, and he did, including when he died, totally unafraid, totally uncomplaining, totally unmedicated. Totally undiminished. Totally undiminished. Both of us were there. Yeah. So, yes, no, I agree with that. But that was the twin two, that was the flip side of his decency and kindness. He didn't hate himself. He had no reason to. And if he made a mistake or did something wrong, which he did, he'd be like, wow, I did something wrong. I'm really sorry. And he was genuinely inquisitive with other people and kind. And interested always. And interested. Oh, his favorite thing was talking to, I mean, he loved to talk and he told the best stories around.

1:09:39But he loved people. Oh, he'd get back from dinner parties when we were kids. I'll never forget. He was always a woman, of course, because as a man, you sit next to a woman at a dinner party. thank god i met the most amazing woman she would grew up in some weird country and did this and her dad was in the oss and you know it was all that was a theme it was always some intrigue always always but um but he was so interested in other people like and so passionate about it like their stories were like as exciting to him as his story yes oh he paid attention to the details very close attention very he was an amazing listener because he was really interested anyway I think his decency, his love of children, animals, his family, his wife, people he sat next to at dinner parties, like that was all related to his total fearlessness.

1:10:25Yes. In a way. Yes. Do you know, I can't quite articulate it, but I know. I think you did, but he, no, no, but he was so self-confident because he used all the talents that God gave him to the extent that he was able. I mean, he never passed up an opportunity ever, anywhere, to do anything interesting or adventurous. That is literally true. And that was like his law. And it's so attractive. And it's... That was his law. Yeah. That was his law. Have an interesting life. That's like the only instruction I got. Me too. Yeah. And he constantly... I mean, I remember when you got thrown out of boarding school.

1:11:05and the only family drama I ever remember was would Pop be able to force you to join the French Foreign Legion and he was dead set on forcing you to do that in case you don't remember I do remember and I don't remember being resistant to it. It wasn't you. No I'm aware. Someone else who was very resistant to it. You can't do that to him! Man. You weren't against it but like you were when you got tossed? How old were you? 17, maybe? I was 17. Yep. And he checked at the head office in Marseille. I'll never forget this. And 17 was old enough to join the French Foreign Legion. And I'll never forget coming home for Christmas or Easter or some vacation where we were all home in Georgetown.

1:11:51And he was like, well, your brother's going to join the French Foreign Legion. And I was like, is this real? You were like, yep. He fucked up at school. He got thrown out of boarding school. He's going to the French foreign legion and it's a six-year commitment but by the time he gets out he'll only be 23 and imagine he'll be able to see all his friends i spent six years in the french foreign legion i've got a fake name and a new passport and i served in jibouti isn't these wars and isn't that great and i was like yeah that sounds great you're like yeah i'm totally thank god for female wisdom and strength actually i think i think it would have been great i probably wouldn't have survived it.

1:12:27But no, thank God for mom. He was so all in. I'll never forget that. So all in. He knew people who had done it. Oh, yes. Speaking of, without even getting into it, but I think both of us have taken an awful lot of shit about whatever he did for a living, and it's not even totally clear. But let me just ask a general question, not about him, but about sort of the world that you grew up in. you were what like 14 when we moved to georgetown maybe ish 13 13 so you spent your entire life in northwest dc like you never left except to go to maine obviously but but like full time you right you're living there and um in a world i mean you literally lived in a house that our father purchased from cf sir in cash yes right and everybody in our world was involved in that kind of stuff.

1:13:22And then you have had jobs where you rubbed up against people in the intel world. Yes. A lot of jobs. Common probably in D.C. That's the point, actually, that I'm making. I wouldn't be bringing this up if I thought you were... Well, by this point in the conversation, I think everyone knows you're not working for the CIA. You're not compliant enough. Have you seen my tax returns? Who has? Who has? But I guess my question is, did you know until relatively recently what a huge role intel agencies, foreign and domestic, played in the life of our country? Not just the political life, but the civic life, the cultural life.

1:14:03Did you know that? No. And it reminds me of what you said a little earlier in this conversation about not being aware of what's going on around you because you're steeped in it, of course. And I worked for a corporate intelligence firm that was founded by all former spooks. Who I knew personally. Yes. Good guys. Great guys. Excellent shots too. We hunted with them. Holy smokes, were they? Yeah. And also one of them died like the best death ever. Had grandchildren. His children were married. Walked out of his, on K Street, walked out of his accountant's office, having received good news, and had a massive heart, like life-ending heart attack right there on K Street.

1:14:43Crossed in the prime rib. Yeah, like 76. Yeah. I mean. He was a great man. He was a great man. But Intel guy. Sorry, I think it's also important to mention, my attitude has changed like so many because of COVID. But even a little bit before that, I just had taken it on faith that we had a good government that was well-meaning, that makes mistakes, but that was answerable to the people. I actually always thought that growing up. I generally didn't think what I heard from the government was a lie. I didn't think it was a manipulative lie. I remember, I mean, the most important thing that went on in our lives as we were growing up, the most important enduring conflict was the Iron Curtain and communism.

1:15:27And I remember talking with you and others all the time about those poor people who live in the Soviet Union who have no access to real news. They have TASS and they have Zvestia. Zvestia, Pravda. And they don't have the freedom to go to church. And they, obviously their economy sucks because it's managed by a government and that never works. But really, they didn't have access to accurate information. Right. They had no access to any real news. And further, they had been taught as a society terrible things about America and Americans. And specifically, we used to also talk after the Iron Curtain came down, had the same attitude about North Korea.

1:16:14Like, here are these poor emaciated captives who can't leave their own country, who think these terrible and untrue things about Americans. And it was only a couple of years ago that I suddenly realized I had this epiphany. We're fucking North Korea. We are North Koreans. And so much of what the government has told us throughout our lives about big events and small events are simply not true. not just massaged, but like 180 degrees from truth and reality. Once you have that realization, it's very unsettling and dispiriting, I think, and scary. And obviously the election of 2020 brought it into focus.

1:16:59All of the suppression of Twitter and the New York Post piece from Miranda Devine on Hunter Biden. and all the false news about masks and the vax and everything else. I mean, the list is endless and could go on and on. But no, to answer your question, I was not aware of it. I didn't pay attention to it. I didn't suspect it. And I really had no reason to suspect it, actually, because life was different even a decade ago in America and certainly in Washington. And now they've just, it seems a certain air of desperation or something that they're clamping down to such an aggressive degree, even with Trump in the White House, which I wish someone would explain to me.

1:17:44I have my theories. But anyway, and the fact that they used to be good liars, this is the thing I find the scariest, is they used to tell compelling, thought out, well-fashioned, plausible lies. And they no longer do that. Now it's just, hey, this is it, and you either accept it or shut the fuck up and we'll put you in prison or we'll take all your liberties away. And I do think it's akin to finding the great debate, are you going to look under the bed or are you going to jump across the room and leave the door? It's like once you look under the bed, you might actually find the monster. And now it's clear that our government is the monster and the intelligence agencies are the monster.

1:18:31and once you've seen it, you can't really unsee it. Yes. And that's really unsettling. So nicely put. That's so nicely put. Yeah. That has been, I try to talk about it too much because it's obviously way too personal, but the realization about the intel agencies has been one of the really big things for me. I just, I can hardly even believe it. I can hardly believe it. I know that sounds stupid, but. It doesn't? But it grows out of a totally different understanding of the U.S. government. Yes. And I always thought it was inefficient. And the problem with the U.S. government was there were a lot of lazy people with guaranteed jobs.

1:19:09And big bureaucracies don't function very well. They just don't work. But the spirit that animates them, which is a spirit to protect and improve the country, is kind of unquestioned. They're not trying to subvert the country. That's what I would think. Or maybe at worst they don't care. Right. And occasionally you have a Soviet or Cuban spy, but that's like really far out. You know what I mean? or some drunk FBI agent with having an affair who sells secrets because he needs the money, but like... Human flaws. Human flaws. Thank you. Human flaws. But never that this whole, that there'd be huge parts of this whole enterprise that are working to destroy the society.

1:19:46Like, it never even occurred to me. No. No, me either. But it's clear that that's what's going on. It's clear. Yeah. It couldn't be clearer. And it's accelerating. It's not decelerating. No. No. so yeah and it's demonic it is and I actually don't even understand why that obvious observation that obvious conclusion makes people I guess it's a religious question I don't know why it makes people not just uncomfortable it makes people super hostile if you mention that certain motivations are demonic and that there are demons among us I think that's I've always known that I've just known that it's just obvious.

1:20:29I've known it my whole life. It is obvious. You don't have to be around. It's like being, as our father always said, trust your dog sense. And you talk about it, everybody has it. All you have to do is pay attention to it. It doesn't even need to be that finely calibrated. I mean, if you have a weird feeling about a situation or about a person, you know, you're probably right. Yes. Trust it. Yeah, trust it. It's not random. No. Not at all. And every human has also had weird, out-of-the-blue impulses to do things that go against their nature. And all the time, this happens to me, thank God, it happens to me a lot, especially when I'm out in nature with my dogs.

1:21:14This is where I can clear my head. This is where I can relax and think away from my phone. I get all sorts of unbidden, unsolicited thoughts, impulses that I follow. Good things. Call this person. Write this. Do this. Totally agree. And if I didn't have that in my life, I would be a mess. I would be more of a mess. Whatever. It would be. So it's not just. It's not just demonic. It's not just dark stuff. That acts on us. It's God acts on us. Yes, very much so. so i boy if i had the same experience i guess my whole life but i didn't recognize it for what it was until pretty recently yeah and i certainly would never you know as a wasp i would never mention it because you're not like that's one thing you're not not supposed to talk about your spiritual views period in fact in fact it's such a rarity i remember exactly where i was when i first had this conversation and it was with you and it was in the state of maine which is obviously wonderful but also something about the state of maine is very close to whatever's going on around us that we can't see it's happening in maine a lot more than anywhere else the membrane is thinner in maine between this world and the next there's no question about that it's not very much it's not it's not a light state no it's it's a heavy state you know what i mean there's a reason Stephen King when he at one point had talent and one point had a God-given talent.

1:22:51Yes, clearly. Because you can't read his early stuff. You can't read The Stand without saying, this guy is using God-given talent. Oh. There's a reason why all those books actually take place in Maine. Oh. And it's not just because he's from Maine. It's because something going on in Maine. And that's been, I think, recognized for a long time. Yeah. And it exceeds my understanding. I can't even guess. I do know that the first transatlantic television signal was broadcast from Maine. Oh, yes. In a town very close to us. Dish is still there. Dish is still there. I hunted next to it last month. I flew over it.

1:23:24Yeah, Patrick. But the point is, it's like there's something about its geographic location, its geography as well that, I don't know, there's something about it. Yes. But, yeah, we grew up in a world and in a culture that did not welcome conversations about spiritual matters, the transcendent. No. Yeah. No. That was a huge weakness. Didn't talk about death. No. Didn't talk about illness. There were no support groups for illness. I remember in the 80s, there was this black, because Georgetown had been black or partly black like 100 years ago or something. And so there was a black church on our street.

1:24:00Do you remember that? Well, yes. Like four blocks down on N Street in Georgetown. And of course, I didn't even know it was there, but our father knew it was there. It's actually the end of Dumbarton. It was the end of Dumbarton, sorry, one block up. and he was like, he just loved black church. Do you remember getting dragged to black church with him? I loved it, actually. I was never resistant to it. You'll never find nicer people with better music, great food, and a super welcoming attitude. No, I couldn't agree more. As I think church is supposed to be. It's such a departure from the, I won't mention the name of the church because I know family members of ours still go there, but I was baptized there and it was just too, it was beautiful architecturally.

1:24:40And that's about what it had to recommend it. Yeah. The pews had a nice patina from, you know, hundreds of years. For the frozen chosen. Yeah, no, there's no question. But he would drag us to the black church at least once or twice a year. Let's go to Easter at the black church. They were always a little confused by what we were doing there, but he was so into it. They were on board, though. They were on, no, they were totally on board. No, to give them credit, they were, they couldn't have been nicer. And they were like old fashioned Washington black people. Like the definition of like respectable middle class people.

1:25:09and um but he liked it because they were just like all in like they weren't beating around the bush like they're for they're for jesus yes and i think that's just unabashed yeah and i think those were that was the only contact i ever had in my young life with jesus at all were people talking about jesus yes do you feel that 100 no no i mean i've had i've had a lot of reasons to have an awakening in my life and was forced upon me. And in so many ways, God has come into my life and changed things that needed to be changed. Yes. Excised certain patterns and behaviors that needed to be, that I never could have done on my own, ever.

1:25:49And yeah, I know we both, I mean, I... So yes, no, I didn't think about it enough. I always had a reflexive faith. I always knew God existed. I never questioned, but I didn't know a lot about, I still don't necessarily know a lot about the history of religion or the intricacies of certain scripture. But I read the Bible. I commune with other people. I celebrate God. I celebrate fellowship. And I celebrate Jesus unabashedly. I mean, yeah. So how, I would say the other thing, the feature of the world that we grew up in was alcohol is part of it. Yes. It was cocktail culture. Absolutely. My favorite food growing up was tonic water and Camembert.

1:26:37We had so many cocktail parties at our house. Sweats tonic water and Camembert. That's true. That's where that came from. Do you remember that? I remember well. Tonic water. That's when you know your parents were going to a few too many cocktail parties. Not many six-year-olds drink tonic water. I wonder if any six-year-olds drink tonic water. I don't think people even drink gin and tonics anymore, but they did in our house growing up. Anyway. Boy, we come from a long line of gin and tonic drinkers. But so we both got caught up in it. And I would see you a little more enthusiastically than me.

1:27:12You were epic, I think is the term people use now. But and then, you know, you know, as anyone who drinks overly enthusiastically, the people who love them start to worry. And then you just like quit. Didn't go to rehab. No, I admire people who do. I think it's helpful. I'm not criticizing it. No, no, no. I didn't think you were. I just actually have heard some fascinating stories at those AA meetings. It's been years since I've been to one. But I did have some concerned friends who'd gone through this journey themselves and who pulled me in. And I was receptive to listening. Not necessarily receptive to stopping, but receptive to learning more.

1:27:54and I was flirting with it. Flirting was stopping because you take those tests that they have and like answer 10 of these questions and if you answer even three of them then you've got a drinking problem and it was always like I've answered yes on all 10 and I could probably give you six more questions to ask. So and I'd been, I'd had a few run-ins with authorities, quite a few actually. it had affected my life. Anybody ask you, oh, do you think alcohol is affecting your life? Oh, gosh. I don't know. Let me contemplate that. Oh. So, and I'd also reach, but principally what happened was my son was born.

1:28:35And that was a tough pregnancy, an early birth. And the moment I saw that child be born, I'd had a lot of preparation from you because you'd already had a couple of children and from others. And it was an aspiration for me for the entirety of my life to be a father. But the moment I saw that child be born and they're purple and unattractive, my son urinated all over the doctors. It was great. I'm still very proud of him. But I remember unbidden, speaking of unbidden thoughts and emotions, the first thing that I thought when that child was born was, I'd fucking kill for this child. Yes. And I would do it with relish.

1:29:20like if someone ever someone ever threatened this child i would i mean there's nothing i wouldn't do so um anyway so he was born and he was young as a baby my son has never seen me intoxicated i'm happy to say he's 24 i had my last cocktail 23 years ago in march coming up incredible and and talked about it and thought about it and had concerned people discuss it with me and had dialed back, but then had really an amazing, an epic weekend with my son's godfather, a great friend of both of ours, who came in from New Orleans and had like three-day Bucknellia in Georgetown and got like physically ill and so did my wife.

1:30:11And she had a full-on divine intervention where God spoke to her out loud and said, enough.

1:30:23And that was it. Removed it from her completely. That's incredible. Completely. And then I was sympathetic on board with it because not only was I trying to convince myself that I should lay off it for a while, I was trying to convince her. And like most, she was resistant. And so that day I made the commitment, you know, I'm going to join her. But then one of my great friends was having a bachelor party like in two days. So I said, okay, well, let's just get through this weekend. And then I'm committed. Oh, I've been there. And I did. I had my last cocktail. Actually? Engagement party of a great guy.

1:30:59I'm spacing his name out. I'll think of him in a second. Oh, you know him. He's a wonderful guy. His marriage didn't last, but he's around. And he had a great party. And I had a couple cocktails. didn't get hammered. And then I said, that's it. Not doing it again. And, but it was divine intervention for me too, because he removed not only the desire to drink, but he implanted like a revulsion for alcohol. Yes, I feel that. A physical revulsion where I could to this day, 22 and a half years later, summon the taste of a Grey Goose martini or summon the taste of like a three inch glass of Maker's Mark.

1:31:35And I could make myself vomit in like 15 seconds. And also for that first year, no one ever talks about this. At least I've never heard anybody talk about this. That for that first year, I couldn't sleep, sweating constantly, had horrible nightmares every night. And the enduring nightmare that I still have occasionally, I would say once a month, I'll be somewhere socially in my dream and I'll be talking to someone and I'll just reach and have a cocktail. and as soon as it hits my mouth, I start sobbing in my dream and wake up really agitated and really upset with myself. But anyway, God removed the desire completely for me and I've had a much better life since.

1:32:22And I've never run, interestingly, I've never run, I could give you hours of stories about stupid and dangerous and destructive things I did as a drunk person, but I never have hooked up with an old friend that I haven't seen in like two decades, have a meal and they like order a drink and, oh, do you want a drink? And I'll say, no, actually I quit drinking. I've never had someone say, what the fuck did you do that for? Like, really? You quit drinking? Like you loser, you quit her? No, no one's ever had that emotion. You're the only person I know who's crashed an airplane, a speedboat, a motorcycle and multiple cars.

1:33:01And that's literally true. That's just a fact. And you're here. I think we differ on the definition of crashing. I did not crash the plane. It was a forced landing, they call it. Okay. Okay. Well, a forced landing. No, I bear some responsibility, for sure. But the plane survived. Okay. Completely unscathed. Well, okay. In a clearing in a national forest. I'm just saying, and by the way, I'm not blaming you for whatever mechanical error forced your plane. But again, we could just take the plane out of it and we still have the motorcycle, the boat, and the cars. Yes. Yes. I also once fell asleep while flying an airplane.

1:33:40From drinking? Yeah. Passed out. In a really trafficked area. And I was aware that I was, you know, when you're really, really, really tired, you can't hide it from yourself. You can slap yourself in the face. You can pinch yourself. I was a smoker at the time and I was chain smoking while flying. And I was in a traffic pattern and I just couldn't keep my eyes open. Could not in an international airport in someone else's airplane. Yeah. And I kept nodding off. Was anyone else in the plane? I was by myself. It was really terrifying. I wrote a piece about it actually for a friend of mine who also subsequently quit drinking and started like a webzine when those things were around.

1:34:26and yeah, it was pretty hilarious. You fell asleep while flying an airplane. Multiple times, multiple times. I was going on a local trip and I took off. I was tired. I was sleep deprived. I had a friend, you know those friends who come and visit you? Oh, yes. And they never leave and they're a great company. Amazing, especially after like 5 p.m. Yeah, yeah. And well, he stayed for like two weeks And so we developed this great strategy where we'd go out, we'd like drink all day on the beach and then go out to wildly hedonistic meal. And then we'd get back to my apartment at like two in the morning.

1:35:05And then he would stay up smoking and reading so he could make sure that I got up at 4.30 to go make it to the flight line. I was in flight school at the time. And so I did that for two weeks. He subsequently got alcohol poisoning. I think I did too. But I was just exhausted. But I love flying. And it was actually the only academic experience I've ever had that I was really passionate about. I love flying. And I was in a great flight school. I took it seriously. Not too seriously. Not seriously enough to quit drinking. Or to sleep. Or to sleep. But yeah, I showed up at dawn. Flew places prone to massive fog banks everywhere.

1:35:48It's flat. It's actually in this state on the Atlantic Ocean. And the flight school itself shares an international airport with like six carriers, big carriers. So it's got like a 10 ,500 foot runway. It's got north and south and east and west. It's got a lot of traffic. And so I was wary. I'm feeling, you know, tired or exhausted. But it wasn't until I took off that I thought this is bad. Like this is dangerous. Like I really can't focus and I'm falling asleep. And so I went about 10 miles north and came back because I didn't want it to be super suspicious. Just take off. You have to basically declare an emergency to get back in the pattern in an international airport like that.

1:36:31So I went north for like 10, 12 miles and then called approach and said I was coming back and have to identify why. And it was in the approach with like 737s flying around and other. It was a very high traffic airport. and I was on like a five mile downwind or crosswind, I'm trying to think, whatever. I was on a long approach to this airport and communicating with the tower on the radio and I would fall asleep in between communication, you know, Cessna November 678 Echo, are you there? Cessna November 678 Echo, here. Oh yeah, it was, and I said a lot of prayers and as I said, I smoked some cigarettes in that plane and I pinched myself and I landed safely, excellent landing, and got to the flight line and turned the engine off and promptly took a nap in the plane for like an hour.

1:37:27It was bad. And then I had a motorcycle at that time too and I hopped on my motorcycle and I went home and I was like, you got to go back to your real life, man. It's like one of my oldest friends. You got to leave. I can't sustain this. so then you wind up you're a blackjack dealer on a riverboat in mississippi you work for a couple different political candidates a presidential campaign and all nice guys i don't you know can i say one thing like if you name i'm not gonna name them you can if you want but like people you thought were impressive 30 years ago in politics they're also discredited now i know it's sad it is sad i don't want to be mean not only discredited but actually there was a much better stable of real candidates, real people.

1:38:15For one example, I briefly was a communications director at the Maryland Republican Party for like six months. You were communications director for the Maryland Republican Party. Imagine a Maryland Republican Party. It's like a different country. There were like 16 Republicans even then, but they could still raise some money and they could make some noise because there were no other Republicans. And actually it was great for me because I was the communications director, which really means I was writing nasty press releases and trying to generate lots of news. And, you know, it's a fully corrupt state.

1:38:44And so there's a lot to talk about. And no one's looking over your shoulder because it's Maryland. Like, really? Right. So I'd write the most incendiary stuff and occasionally generate some news on it. But I had license to do that. And it was actually a really good launchpad. It was a nice brief experience I had with some really good people. They didn't have, you know, big aspirations, I don't think. I don't think you could stay at the Maryland Republican Party. It's kind of interesting. Quickly, I started then and I've written for now 25 years. I love writing speeches and I write speeches for, I've written speeches for political candidates and aspiring political candidates and corporate heads.

1:39:29I love it. I think it's so fun and interesting. And I'm sure no one will do it anymore with the AI, but I hope that's not true. But anyway, whatever, I could write good speeches. And one of the guys who actually was impressive in Maryland in the mid-90s was Michael Steele. Do you remember Michael Steele? I knew Mike Steele, yeah. His sister married Mike Tyson. I did know that. I'd totally forgotten. He's such a chameleon. He's such an unimpressive person. Now, it's hard to believe that I once thought he was impressive. He was articulate. He was, you know, I wasn't going to use Biden's. Was he clean too?

1:40:08Yeah, he was clean, didn't smell bad. And he was articulate. I think that was Biden's quote. To quote Joe Biden, yes. Yes. And he was, he's impressive. He's a tall man and he's got a lot of energy. And he's like, and your face looks you in the eye. No, that's totally right. A good handshaker. And he was going to be like the face of Republican success. And he had a failed Senate campaign, whatever. 10, 12 years go by. And in a much different iteration in my life, I was writing still, but like doing more interesting and more lucrative things than the Maryland Republican Party. And an old friend of mine named Lance Copsey, who's no longer around.

1:40:45I don't know if you remember him. He's a very well-rate guy. He's been gone like 15 years. He called me and said, hey, I'm running Michael Steele's campaign for the RNC. Will you write some speeches for him? And I was like, hell yeah, love to do that. I got paid to do it. And I also believed in Michael Steele. And so I wrote Michael Steele's acceptance speech when he became the RNC chair. Not a huge deal, but like kind of fun. It was bigger then. It was bigger then. And then he immediately like became reverted to type. And by which I mean corrupt politician. And immediately blew like$800 ,000 on, you know, redecorating his personal office.

1:41:30He demanded a private jet because he claimed that Obama was president. He claimed that he was Obama's counterpart on the Republican side, and Obama had Air Force One, and he needed to fly private. The incredible nuts on that guy. Yeah, he had balls. Yeah, but no interesting opinions and no principles. Zero. No foundation. And then he figured out the white guilt lever, and he's like, I don't get a plane. Is that because I'm black? Are you saying that I'm lesser? in his defense wasn't um terry mcauliffe the dnc guy at the time probably so he was probably looking at terry mcauliffe's like right pretty good deal terry mcauliffe hadn't yet imported you know chinese cars for for visas yet but he was living large man i didn't even understand how corrupt that world was when we lived in it so then speaking of you wind up working at you know basically the number two for a guy called Frank Luntz.

1:42:35Frank Luntz, for those who haven't heard of Frank Luntz, he's still around. Oh, very much. It was the biggest pollster in the Republican Party, and more than just a pollster, he was like the message guy. How do we communicate that cutting capital gains taxes for donors is part of the American dream? Or whatever. It's in the Constitution. How do we soften all the environmental lunacy and make it palatable? Oh, let's call it climate change. You mean the fucking weather? No, climate change. Did he come up with that? Came up with climate change. Came up with death tax. He came up with climate change?

1:43:11Well, I say he, his team. I was part of his team for like six years. And yes, I helped run that show with a couple of other very competent people. He, as you know, he's very complicated. He's like a walking dichotomy. He is occasionally brilliant. He's very smart, naturally. He's lazy. He's dirty. He's dishonest. Dirty? What do you mean dirty? His favorite food group is Thousand Island Dressing. Oh, come on. And you just can't eat Thousand Island Dressing without getting it all over yourself. And the biologicals, which are supposed to be unmentionable, but with Frank are ever evident everywhere.

1:43:53Oh, come on. That was disgusting. no no no no no the personal hygiene is like non-existent i could get much more graphic i can't even tell you what his nickname around the office was there's a guy who's walking around with literally a dead raccoon in his head yeah yeah i know i'm sorry so many people don't skimp on the hair piece that's like rule one i know i know but he was brilliant in his business because at least the business preposition that he had which was he understood i'm not sure if you remember there was a time, yeah, you really have to actually think back. There was a time in America where there was something called cable news.

1:44:29Yeah, I'd heard that. Yeah, people took it seriously. Yeah. And no one took it more seriously than Frank Luntz. So Frank Luntz aspired not only to hang out with famous people, like in really close proximity, but to be on TV. And he's very articulate and he's very aggressive like people say people occasionally say oh that guy's shameless no no no you've never seen shameless until you've met frank lenz because he literally has no shame gene like there's nothing you could do to frank lenz in public to shame him he's unshamable but then again part of the dichotomy is like also super socially awkward and socially aspirant like he He wants to hang around people, but he's autistic in his eruptions, which are usually pretty funny.

1:45:17So he's very verbal. He's energetic. He's got limitless aspiration to make dough and be on TV. And he recognizes, actually, that's a pretty common thing in corporate America and on the Hill. So he's very close with Newt Gimrich in 94, and he got a lot of credit for coming up with the contract with America. I think he was maybe a little bit, he was definitely very much involved. I don't think it was his entire baby. I think it was more Newt's and the people around Newt. But whatever, Frank weaseled in there, got a lot of credit for being part of the contract with America. And then, of course, the Republicans come in and they're in power for the first time in my lifetime.

1:46:03And first time in like, I don't know, 32 years or something, maybe 36 years. The first, I can't remember, the 94 election when Republicans got back into the House. It was the first time in three decades at least. And so Frank was there and his business model was, I will come up with language and words and speeches for members on the Republican caucus. I'll do it for free. Then I'll promote those messages in corporate world and make a ton of money with people who also want to be on television, corporate heads, excuse me, Fortune 500, Fortune 100, Fortune 50 companies. And I'll go pitch them on some research project that will allow them to understand their customers better.

1:46:51and I'll incorporate the language that I'm devising and using for the benefit of Republicans. So he ingratiated himself with Republicans at the same time he's ingratiating himself with corporate America all around this old antiquated now defunct medium cable news. And it was brilliant. So he made it and he had no overhead because his entire business model relied upon getting people, even though he was incredibly label conscious, like he went to UPenn, he went to Oxford, he had an honorific doctorate that he insisted people call him doctor. Did people call him doctor? Oh, Dr. Frank Luntz. Yes, Dr.

1:47:38Luntz. I didn't call him Dr. Luntz. I called him, I won't tell you what I called him. I called him Frank, mostly. But this is so, So Frank was rolling in the dough and didn't know what to do with it. And he's indefatigable in his entire life. I will, and there are things about him that I hugely admire for sure. His relentless nature, his shamelessness. You've never seen a pitch, ever seen a pitch. People talk about, oh, he's such a great pitch man and he knows how to go and speak to these prospective clients. No one does it like Frank Luntz and with literally no preparation because his entire strategy, I would call humiliate the executive.

1:48:20What? Yeah, humiliate the executive generally in front of his underlings or a sub, like not a CEO, but like the guys who are angling for the CEO spot, the various vice presidents and stuff who are sycophantic towards the CEO. he would gather all the executives in one room, either a conference room or sometimes bigger, like an auditorium inside Coca-Cola's headquarters or Dow's headquarters. And he would go and he would give a presentation and like five minutes into the presentation, he would identify one of the sub executives by name. And he would do everything he could to humiliate that person in front of all of his peers and his boss.

1:49:05Come on. Yeah. So there's a guy who actually understands the worst part of human nature because that does actually excite the sadist in certain people, right? And so who gravitates to those jobs except people who, a lot of them, not all of them, but some of them have that gene. Like, oh, public humiliation? Love to publicly humiliate you. And every single person, like if you could see the thought bubble above everybody's head, they're all saying, holy fuck, I'm so glad that's not me. Right? So everybody, so at the end of his... How would he humiliate? When he finds, oh, the most personal stuff, their clothing, the asymmetry of their face, you know, big earlobes.

1:49:53No, no. I mean, like, I know he was predatory, relentless, ruthless, and entertaining as hell. Like he's really facile with the English language. He's like fast. He's super fast. I'll give him that. And very articulate. And man, he would go after them. And so at the end, he'd like softened up the entire. Your lobes. I mean, he would humiliate. Actually. At Coke headquarters in Atlanta? Yes. I saw him do it at Pfizer. I saw him do it at Coke. I saw him do it. I mean, he did work for some impressive people, some huge companies. You work for the Sacklers at Purdue Pharma. I'm ashamed to say that I was involved in that.

1:50:37And that's actually something I think about often, actually. I bought into the whole line. It's like, you were telling me before, did you know that the intelligence agencies played such an aggressive role in American life and elections? No, I didn't. I also really didn't know. It turns out I should have listened to a lot of the blue-haired, vagina-hat-wearing, crazy women. because a lot of the shit they said about the Iraq war, obviously true, about Bush administration, obviously true, only in hindsight, for me at least, and I dismissed them. And I dismissed in a lot of the jobs I had because I did end up in a position defending some of the worst corporate interests in America, and I believed that when people attack Big Pharma, for instance, or the Sacklers or they're really just against, you know, corporate world.

1:51:31They're really against capitalism. They're really, they're just communists. They're against America. Right, they're against America. So I grew up thinking that and it dovetailed well with my job because I ended up, I mean, they're not all evil, of course, and a lot of them employ tons of people and do good things and we couldn't survive without them. So I'm not attacking all of them. gladly attacked the Sacklers and Purdue Pharma, though, because that not only, you know, more about this topic than most, but, you know, it also dovetailed with an entire societal effort that they had, which I was very much a part of, to convince Americans that there is no such thing as acceptable pain.

1:52:11You cannot be in pain. You shouldn't be in pain. Someone needs to be responsible for your pain and you need to eradicate your pain. That was what they were talking about in 2000, in 1999, 2001, two and three, they engaged in a society wide campaign to convince Americans that pain was unacceptable, not just for chronic cancer sufferers, or people who'd been injured in war or people who'd had, you know, back injury 20 years ago, you should not be feeling in pain ever at all. And there's a solution for that. And they obviously had this solution. Further, they're the ones, as you know, who maybe didn't pioneer it, but they took it to the next level, attacking the people that they'd hooked on OxyContin when they said, and I said, engaged in a ton of research projects and jury messaging with that company where we'd go in and test messages and arguments, but really sort of like a push-pull designed to not just gauge public opinion, but to very much influence public opinion.

1:53:23To implant messages. Yes, very much so. And then, of course, because of his business model, he would use those messages and it would be incorporated in thought leaders and elected officials around the country. They would use that same language. And that was, in its essence, you're not responsible for your pain. You shouldn't have pain. But further, this is not an addictive product. And if you are addicted to it, it's because you've been abusing it. It's because you have some latent, some long dormant addictive thing within you that's now been released. And you also probably have been abusing the product.

1:54:00Like, have you been hitting it with a hammer and smashing it into dust and snorting it? Well, that's on you. So that shit's evil. It is evil. And I never, you're thinking about it much more broadly than I ever have. So I've always been focused on the physical addiction, the societal destruction. You know, you and I both spend a lot of the year in a place that's been really, really. Followed out. Followed out by it. And we know people, a very good friend of ours is now in prison because of drug addiction. So anyway, whatever. We have seen it, both of us. But I have never really thought about what you just said, which is they were making a broader pitch about pain.

1:54:37and how pain is always bad. And I think if you, any man, especially in middle age looking back, has to recognize that the painful moments are some of the best moments, the most important moments. Absolutely necessary. Absolutely necessary. Failure is necessary. Pain is necessary. Including physical pain sometimes. Yeah, very much. So to say that our goal is to eliminate all pain, that's evil. Yes, I agree. And I wish I had recognized it as such. I totally, I don't think I was, I think I was probably smarter back then because I was still smoking cigarettes.

1:55:14And I was younger. But anyway, I still didn't recognize it. Lacking wisdom at that age rate. Yes, lacking wisdom. Men in their 30s don't have the perspective that a man in his 50s has. Yes, very much so. Assuming he makes it. Can I say one more thing about the Lentz thing? It was actually, well, the business model was amazing in terms of, it was very profitable. It was effective. He came up with some effective language. So it's a quasi, it's a dual track research thing where you do quantitative research, you know, actual polling, calling, polling was long before, online polling, and then qualitative research with people in a group, a focus group.

1:55:52But he expanded it to like six times the normal size. So your normal focus group has like eight to 10 or 12 people in it. And obviously it depends who you recruit to be in that focus group. but then he expanded that to like 60 people and then he had an electronic dial which was actually a dial but he called it dial testing where you could gauge individual words and sentences in real time so every single person in the audience is reacting to a speech a speech which is littered with messages that you're testing and they could react in real time to each word and phrase they could you know it's a visceral reaction right do you like it or are you repelled by it and it's pretty effective actually and i i think a lot of the language that he came up with was great but because of his total inability because of his manic behavior and his dishonesty and his His penchant for yelling and screaming and treating people horribly didn't actually treat me horribly.

1:56:58He lied to me a number of times and I got into some big arguments with him. And I was too young and unwise to understand you're not supposed to confront your boss and the way you would confront anybody else. Right. He's not a park ranger. He's not a park ranger. I was more respectful to the park rangers probably. The two men I felt bad for. um but anyway no but sorry i was trying to compliment him which is all he cared about was the product and which was the written word and he never gave you enough time there was no schedule he was deluged with clients with high-paying clients and he was disorganized and so he would rely upon there was a period where we were handling like 12 huge clients and It was like three writers or two writers and client hand holders, you know, interfacing with the client because Frank wasn't good at that.

1:57:52He was very good at humiliating them and coming to the crux, understanding human nature to the extent that he could get someone to say, yes, I'm going to pay you a ridiculous amount of money for a research project that will take six weeks and then allow me to understand my customer better. That he was great at. He was not great at allocating. He was not great at planning. And so the end result was a total beautiful meritocracy. Like you could only survive in that situation unless you produced. It was like campaigns are like that too. I'm sure you know. Of course. It's like, it doesn't matter where you came from.

1:58:31It doesn't matter what you did yesterday or tomorrow. It matters that you fucking produce now on time. You can't, it's like in that old medium cable news. So you didn't have an opportunity to be like, I'm not done with my script. It's 7 o 'clock and you're going on the air regardless, right? It's the greatest part about it. It's the greatest part. That's what I'm saying. It was the greatest part about it because of that job. Because you just had no room for failure. And every day was an opportunity to prove that you were up to the challenge. and then further, silly cliche but true, that, you know, oh, he's got an inch wide, mile long knowledge.

1:59:11I feel like that a little bit because I was compelled, as were the other guys I worked with, to absorb the details of something that's very complex, a particular business that I had never been involved in, or a policy or some capability of a future product or, you know, something, initiative. and you had to be able to speak about it, write about it articulately and compellingly on no notice at all. So I think that sounds like the best training. That's exactly how I think about it. And despite the weird, I wasn't trying to gratuitously attack. No. I wrote him a letter actually like six years ago and just contemplative letter saying, despite all of our differences, despite the various tensions we've had, despite the fact you fired me three times and then hired me back the next day and paid me more money.

2:00:08Still not fairly, but despite all of those things, I thank you because it was the best, most satisfying job I've ever had. No. No, of course not. No. Well, he... He had a stroke and it changed him, actually. Oh, well, that's... No, no, it actually... He had his own admission. He had a stroke that he survived. Like all of us at a certain age, you know, he has a terrible diet and leads an unhealthy life and had a stroke. And it changed him. It actually made him more compassionate from... Good. Yes. No, he had that attitude. So, Franklin, I remember, and I don't want to be, I mean, I feel sorry for Frank.

2:00:46And I love the fact that he's improved after his stroke, both that he's okay and that it's made him a better person. I do think that's common. I mean, as we were saying about pain, it actually can, it certainly improved me. And he was aware of it, by the way. Can I tell you how I knew? No. I called him five or six years ago about some common interest that we had. And I shot him a text and said, do you have two minutes? I just want to tell you something interesting. Let me tell you something interesting. So he texted me back and said, yeah, call me. So I called him. First words, hey, how are you?

2:01:19I was like, I'm doing great, man. Let me tell you. And he goes, no. How are you? I was like, I beg you? No. I said, I beg your pardon, Frank. He said, no, I just, I'm genuinely interested. Like, how are you? How is your wife? How is your son? Do you still have dogs? I was like, someone take over your body? Like, are you fucking serious? I've known you for like 26, 30, maybe 28 years at that point. You've never once asked me a personal question and that's just fine. But you're asking me how I'm doing. Are you okay? and that's when he said, actually, I had a stroke, and I said, oh, I'm so sorry.

2:02:01I was genuinely sorry to hear that, but yes, it had a good effect on him, and as I said, I am eternally grateful, as I have expressed to him. Oh, of course. No, of course. I feel that way about all my bosses, some of whom, you know, regularly denounce me, but I'm always grateful for every experience, and especially when you're young and you're learning a lot. I mean, it's amazing. I know, of course, I know Frank also. He was a fixture in a Republican world in D.C. He was at the center of a Republican world in D.C. I always feel like he had weird, he kind of hated the wasps. Did you get that from him ever?

2:02:33Yes, I did. It was, I've encountered it before, but with him it was very pronounced. I've encountered it a lot. Yeah, me too. No one wants to say it. Not just a hate, but an attraction also. Yeah, it was a, yeah. It was like, let me sidle up next to you and then let me stick a fucking dagger in your kidney. That was the attitude. But there was something about that. The fact that you were a wasp triggered him, right? He would talk about it. Oh, actually? Are you joking? Oh, he would talk about it all the time? Well, he'd make derogatory comments or derogatory complimentary comments. It's a thing.

2:03:10It was an attraction and a revulsion or something. It was bizarre. What did he say? Oh, that's... Well, he would just say nothing hugely creative, but he would say, oh, that's what the wasps do. Oh, you do that. or you've got such, you attack my name occasionally or my dress. Yeah, that's a big one. Yeah, I didn't wear a dress in the office very often, but only on... Only when you were going out with Frank. Yeah, exactly. But he was fixated on that. No, evidently, yes. Unquestionably. Yeah, Bill Kristol was the same way with me. I remember when Bill Kristol, if we may take a moment. Yeah. Bill Kristol was a smart guy.

2:03:52Oh, yeah. Not that smart, but clever. Not that smart. He came across as a smart guy. Yeah. A thoughtful guy. A compelling guy. It was weird. I used to respect him. Yeah, yeah. He's like a puddle. Yeah, but you know, I've learned so much. Like, yes, he's clever. He did a fair amount of reading back in the 70s, you know, in school. Yes. He went to Collegiate in New York, which was a really good school, a rigorous school. And they went to Harvard, got his PhD, forced to do a ton of reading. So he had read, you know, Aeschylus. And, you know, he had read a lot in Rousseau. And he could kind of remember parts of it and sort of half quote it, sort of.

2:04:39But what you realize, which was impressive, and I'm not against that. He had like three lines of poetry he could probably do. But you realized over time that that was more a party trick. than a reflection of his actual erudition. And that on the wisdom scale, there was none. And he was really mission-driven. Yes. Apparent now. Apparent now. But it was not obvious to me because I was an idiot. And he was smart, for sure. But he was not that smart at all. And the mission was, you know, hated Christianity. Yes. And really, really hated it. and um the mask is off now oh the mask is off now but if i look back on this you know he was opposed to american sovereignty he was opposed basically to the population of america he's really was hostile a lot very hostile and um there were glimpses of it but i just wasn't i wasn't wise enough to to understand what was going on plus i was like you know young and he was employing me and so there were lots of incentives not to notice but he was very fixated on the wasp thing with me.

2:05:46And it would bubble up sometimes. I'm like, what the hell was that? You know, it wouldn't occur to me to be like, well, I never really thought about him being Jewish, to be honest. I really didn't. He is Jewish, but I didn't think about it that much. He thought a lot about me being a wasp though. There's no question. And it would come out. Anyway, it's just interesting. I never have heard anybody mention that dynamic before, but I noticed that in Luntz too, because he would say stuff to me too. Yes, very much. Wasps. It's like, well, there's no like meeting. Probably should be. Probably wouldn't have disappeared if there was, but.

2:06:19Things would have turned out a little differently. Right, right. Get off the golf course. Yeah, get off the golf course. Get some self-awareness. Get a defense mechanism. But, you know, none of those are visible. Respect yourself. Maybe preserve what your ancestors built. 100%. And I do think that one, I mean, I don't deal with many wasps anymore because they really, really hate me. And I'm sure you probably have the same experience. Don't you think it's the same dynamic? Yes. Self-loathing from cowardice? Cowardice leads to self-loathing, which leads to hatred of others. I totally agree. If someone will hate himself, he's probably not going to treat me well.

2:06:55Yeah, exactly. That's what I think. And they have a lot to be ashamed of in the cowardice department. I mean, these are the bravest people in the world who went over the top of the trenches. The wasps. Yes. And there's a lot of lying about that, but their numbers are there in the First World War. Wasps, including our ancestors. So a lot of them. So yeah, they had a lot of bravery. They seem to have lost that probably through comfort. And booze. And booze. And booze, sorry. Yeah. And booze. And they kind of know that. And they're shrinking little islands. Well, now they've almost shrunk to nothing.

2:07:31And they're mad. Do you take any shit from them when you run into them? It's funny. I took some shit actually from Neil Bush, who was in an unimpressive family, Probably the least impressive of that family. Because the rest of them are charming, mostly. There are a couple of them I like a lot. I'm not going to shame them by naming them, but I know them. Me too. Well, I don't mind shaming Neil Bush because Neil Bush. This is George W.'s brother. Yes. Attacked me in the most passive-aggressive way. At dinner or something? At a fraternity party that my son's fraternity put on, which was like a formal cocktail.

2:08:08And I accidentally bumped into him. and I, backwards, and I turned around, I said, oh my gosh, forgive me, I'm so sorry. And then I said, oh, Neil Bush, hi, Buckley Carlson, nice to see you. Met you in Washington years ago. And then he did something, he had this, he has this affectation about, he's not very smart, first of all. No, he's not. He has this affectation about him that you encounter occasionally and it's, he said something really nasty about you and the content of your show, You were on that, I forgot what it's called. One of those channels. One of those channels. It was named after an animal that I really admire.

2:08:47But back when that medium actually mattered. And he made some offhand comment and I said, I beg your pardon. And this went back and forth a couple of times. And I was trying to be a gentleman. I had my son next to me and Neil Bush's son, who was a fraternity brother of my son. And so we're at a cocktail party. I'm not going to get in some argument with this guy. But I wasn't going to back down either. And so I said, here's something about the content of your show and what you'd said, but he wouldn't be specific about it. And he said, oh, no, I'm not judging. I just call it like it is. He must have said that six times.

2:09:24I'm not judging. I just call it like it is. And I said, well. Neil Bush. Really? Call it like it is, huh? So what exactly specifically did my brother say that you don't agree with? Well, I haven't actually seen his show. I read about it in the New York Times. He said that? This, who's part of a family that, I mean, I actually, exactly, specific people in the family are quality and nice and deserve kindness. But the policies and the administration of George Bush was disastrous, and we're still feeling the effects of it today. I think about it often. And I lived in Texas for a while, and I can tell you that people in Texas think about it all the time.

2:10:08They feel completely betrayed by that family and George Bush specifically. They have every reason to feel that way. Yes, they do. And so I share that revulsion. But anyway, I'm sympathetic to the fact that he is a sibling, a non-public person, and a sibling of people and the son of a man who was attacked relentlessly by people who didn't have specificity in their attacks, didn't even know what they were talking about, and had no trouble attacking family members to him personally. And yet he's going to engage in the same thing with me. I mean, I thought this is... That's actually when it really came home to me that the WASPs have not just lost, but that they've lost will and they've surrendered.

2:10:54Totally. And they're unwilling to make a stand. And the fact that he had adopted that leftist attitude without being smart. Well, it's part, you know, one of the things that... There were a lot of good things about the wasps. Obviously, there were some bad things about the wasps. But one of the good things was they were totally committed to fairness. And at the heart of fairness is the understanding that we're born and will die and will be judged as individuals, not as groups. And therefore, we do not believe in collective punishment. The country was founded on that premise by wasps. And, you know, to abandon that is to abandon everything.

2:11:32Especially when it's the last country on earth that still believes that. That's exactly right. Yeah, that's important to defend. Or is it to attack a man for one of his relatives? I mean, everyone in our family has been attacked for some other member of the family. So we're all very familiar with that. But, you know, I'm proud to say one thing I'm proud about our family is that no one would ever do that. No, not a chance. No, I'd be happy to have dinner with Yameen's brother and never, you know, attack him for cannibalism because he's not the one who committed it that I know of. well Uncle Buck I just gotta ask you one final question you've spent your life I haven't even I'm not I'm not gonna violate your privacy by explaining some of the things you've done or places you've been or people you've worked with or whatever because it's nobody's business and you'll divulge it if you want to but you've had a really interesting life but it's been very interesting life but it's been like our father but it's all been very private haven't been in public at all no right by design I know oh I'm aware I'm aware.

2:12:33And, but now all of a sudden you've like just entered full blown into the public debate online after, you know, 54 years of avoiding it. And you certainly have seen stuff you could have added to the public conversation, but you didn't. And you've reserved it for a Christmas dinner at our house. So thank you for that. But now that you're in the, you know, public, what's that like? I hadn't anticipated it. shock shockingly calling neil bush dumb i feel pretty dumb that i didn't anticipate that but it's because i haven't had a governor i've had the freedom to say what i want to say in the venues that i operate um i must say i've had a lot of fortune in my life a lot of blessings but principally in the business world i've been able to work with some people i have some long time clients who've, who are aligned, um, who are Christian, who are very smart and very loyal.

2:13:32And they've allowed me to operate in my job doesn't demand. I write primarily, I come up with strategic stuff, but, uh, strategery, uh, but I've been allowed to lead an independent and private life and I've enjoyed it. Um, I don't have any young children who I can embarrass or undermine at the moment. So that's great. But again, I didn't anticipate it. But the other thing I would say is, I'm not a coward. I love this country. And I really don't appreciate what's happening to it, what's been happening to it. And it feels like there's a lot afoot. There's a lot going on that I don't necessarily understand.

2:14:15But I feel like there's a battle. There's a massive battle. And it does remind me, simple thing ever. Someone said the other day, I don't mind saying who it was, it was great. Rick Warren, who wrote Purpose Driven Life, started listening to his podcasts. And boy, is he wise. And boy, is he using the tools that God gave him to communicate sometimes complicated things in a very simple way. And he said, at the end, you know, we're going to have a final exam. And there are exactly two questions on that exam, and you can't avoid it. And it's, what did you do with my son Jesus? And what did you do with the purpose God gave you?

2:15:02Wow. That's a pretty sobering thought. Yes, it is. And once you have, it's true. And so I'm not, I guess I'm middle, young, middle-aged, something like that. A little weathered. Our father was more weathered than both of us put together. and he made it a long time. Yes, he did. But I don't know. Every man has an obligation to defend what he loves and to practice that. So I love this country and there's something going on and I want to play a role. I want to do battle. I want to do battle. That's that clear. Seriously. Seriously. There's no one better. If I could just end with one vignette that's been in our family all this time but it's, I don't know, almost 10 years ago, I was at work because my job, at the time I was at work was public.

2:15:55So when I was at work, Antifa came to her house. And of course, as I've said, we've always lived next to each other our whole lives. So my wife was home alone and all these people came and tried to bang through the front door and spray painted her house. And, you know, Antifa mob came to her house, whatever. I was not even aware this was happening. So my wife is in the pantry of the house. Like people are trying to bark, you know, break down the door, dogs are barking. And she does not call the police. She calls you first because everyone in our family would always call you first if there's a problem.

2:16:27And then she calls the cops. Well, the cops, for some reason, got there before you. And then you showed up as the cops were just pulling up, which meant that you couldn't shoot anybody. And that you were mad for weeks after. I'll never forget the next day when I saw you for lunch. You're like, I just feel bad I couldn't shoot anybody. And they were terrifying, Susie. But the police were right there, so I couldn't shoot them. and I just feel bad about it. And I was like, it's okay. It was a justifiable sanctioned culling. It would have been, society would have been much improved. I would have declared a tax credit that year.

2:17:01Don't you think? Oh, I can't talk about this. That was so good. It was so good. And everyone in our family was like, yeah, Uncle Buck got there after the police. Antifa was lucky. It was hilarious. I don't think I've ever experienced such frustration, actually. Oh, I know. mandated restraint. Oh, okay, but thank you. Thank you so much. That was awesome. Appreciate it.