Wikipedia Co-Creator Reveals All: CIA Infiltration, Banning Conservatives, & How to Fix the Internet

14:34Tucker Carlson:Fringe is what I don't like. Fringe is hate speech.

14:36Larry Sanger:Yes, yes. Or it's simply a new view that is going to become dominant in 10 years or something.

14:41Tucker Carlson:Like Galileo, fringe character.

14:43Larry Sanger:It happens all the time in the history of ideas.

14:46Tucker Carlson:No. Right. So that's so obvious. Even a child understands that. Right. The key is the definition. And if you can't come up with a definition, then we have to take the word out because it can only abet lying. So how did that get in there?

15:03Larry Sanger:Well, I think it happened like this. I think Wikipedia developed in sort of in tandem with the development of media. So basically, as media from the founding of Wikipedia 2001 to about 2012 or so became solidified in a center-left establishment standpoint. So if you were to read Wikipedia from 2012 or so, 2010, it read a lot like the New York Times or the BBC. I remember saying that at the time. And then, especially around about 2016 and maybe a few years before that, the media landscape changed almost overnight so that once stayed, mainstream sources became totally biased. They stated in their own voice that the president was lying and so forth.

16:18Larry Sanger:Kind of racist. Racist, exactly. Racist. Tucker Carlson is a conspiracy theorist. So, for example, and that, of course, then was echoed in Wikipedia. So Wikipedia feels perfectly free to say that Donald Trump is telling lies and that various pundits are conspiracy theorists.

16:47Tucker Carlson:here's my question i mean so wikipedia became a weapon of ideological theological war um used to you know destroy its enemies of course that's and that's what it remains but someone had to allow that and that's so far from what it was created to be in fact it's the opposite the mirror image of what it was created to be that you have to ask like was there a fight over that? Who allowed it? Like if you're getting to the point where you're disallowing quote fringe theories or conspiracy theorists or some other term made up by the CIA to hide its secrets, someone has to like, okay, that who, what was that process?

17:29Larry Sanger:It's a good question. You can look at it from an organic point of view. I can't tell you what was going on behind the scenes. If there were any, you know, puppet masters that were controlling the process. I don't know. What I can tell you is that over the years, conservatives, libertarians were just pushed out. They, in many cases, well, Well,

18:01Larry Sanger:there is a whole, you know, army of administrators, hundreds of them, who are constantly blocking people that they have ideological disagreements with. That's not new. So if somebody really does become a problem from their perspective, then they can be simply gotten rid of on a pretext. It's very difficult now. It's possible. It's possible. But it's very difficult for conservatives to get into Wikipedia and actually play the game. But you have to play the game. And that means you have to walk on eggshells. So the point is, it wasn't always like this. Over the years, basically, the left consolidated its power.

18:55Larry Sanger:The way I like to put it is that, you know, the left has its march through the institutions. And when Wikipedia appeared, it was one of the institutions that they marched through.

19:09Tucker Carlson:The difference is it's brand new. Yeah. So like I'm, you know, I grew up in this country. I've never believed in Harvard. It's absurd. I've always thought it was absurd. I really believed in Wikipedia. I sent money to, I'm on, you can check the records. I have sent money, like significant money to Wikipedia because I was so thrilled by its existence. So thrilled. And so it wasn't always this. And now it's like the leading source of dishonesty or I would say disinformation. I mean, most topics in Wikipedia seem totally straight to me, but if you go to anything that intersects, any topic that intersects with theology, politics, ideology, power, and you know something about the topic, and in my case, a couple of topics that I have first-hand knowledge, direct knowledge of it, they lie.

19:52They leave out key information.

19:56Tucker Carlson:They load up the top of the entry with either superlatives or insults that are not, they're totally subjective and insane. Far-right conspiracy theorists, I mean, with a straight face. Like, if you're calling someone a far-right conspiracy theorist before even explaining to me who this person is, then you're a propagandist. You're a liar.

20:14Larry Sanger:Absolutely. Yeah. No, I agree. I described it as propaganda beginning around 2020. Before that, I don't know that I would have given it that word. It was already emerging, you know.

20:28Tucker Carlson:I agree. No, no, this has happened before our eyes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

20:32Larry Sanger:So when did you leave and why? Oh, a long time ago. Yeah, 2002. 2002. So, no, yeah, I was only there for the first two years of the project. I got it off the ground. I set a lot of the original policies. And then, so the company that launched Wikipedia, Balmas Inc. So Jimmy Wills was the CEO of that. And he had a couple of partners. So it was my job to start it. And I did. And then the bottom fell out of the tech market, you know, that. That's for sure. Yeah, back in 2000. So they lost a big contract with, I think it was Google. And so they weren't able to pay people anymore. I was laid off. And I decided I made the decision to, you know, just step back from my role.

21:31Larry Sanger:I would have been welcome to continue on, but I decided not to basically devalue my professional labor. But with distance in 2002, I saw that Jimmy Wales was essentially allowing troublemakers, leftists really, to take over. And they did as early as that. It took them time, I think, to really consolidate their power and create sort of internal processes and institutions and policies that really consolidated their power. But, yeah.

22:14Tucker Carlson:Who is Jimmy Wales and what's he like? Jimmy Wales is the other co-founder of Wikipedia.

22:24Larry Sanger:He's got a finance degree. Let's see. He comes from Alabama. He went to a private school in Alabama, I think. I knew him from, you know, online debating forums about Ayn Rand in the mid-1990s. I actually met him face-to-face on a little junket that I took to visit my uncle. So I just made a stopover in Chicago when he was living there. So I met him before he hired me to start Wikipedia. But he's a very personable person, actually, if you meet him for the first time and you don't know anything about him.

23:14Tucker Carlson:What are his views?

23:17Larry Sanger:I don't know, actually. That's a good question. I'd like to know. They used to be broadly libertarian. Yes. But he's now associated with the left. He has got a lot of lefty pals. And so I think he would probably say he still is, you know, a believer in classical liberalism or something like that. But I don't know if I believe it. Well, look at the results.

23:52Tucker Carlson:Right. I mean, it's an authoritarian enterprise. And it's a proper, you know, it's his vestia. But with much greater reach and a much more profound effect. And it's one of the worst things about our society, actually.

24:07Larry Sanger:But let's be fair to Jimmy Wales here. It isn't clear that he approves of the current approach that Wikipedia has taken to information.

24:20Tucker Carlson:I've spoken to Jimmy Wales other than to send in money years ago. And let me ask you about the money. So it's a nonprofit, correct? Yes. Can you make money from it? Oh, of course.

24:33Larry Sanger:You know, just like any big nonprofit that's raising hundreds of millions of dollars, you know, you can essentially transfer money through grants. And now they are a grant-making institution. So, I mean, I certainly don't need to explain to you how really big foundations work, right? But money can change hands, large amounts of money can change hands through institutions like the Wikimedia Foundation. That's the name of the legal entity that owns the platform.

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26:56Larry Sanger:Hilton, for this day.

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27:43Tucker Carlson:I'm sure it's hostile in a subtle way. It's actually okay. It's okay. I've never read my own Wikipedia entry, not one time. Because I don't want to go crazy. Because I am an expert on that subject. So I feel like I could probably compare their description to what I know to be true and it would just make me angry. And I don't want to be angry. But I have no doubt that it's hostile.

28:06Larry Sanger:It'd piss you off.

28:08Tucker Carlson:Oh, is that true?

28:09Larry Sanger:Oh, yeah. I'm pretty sure. Have you read it? I think I've read the first paragraph anyway.

28:14Tucker Carlson:Pretty tough, huh?

28:16Larry Sanger:I think so.

28:18Tucker Carlson:You know what? I'm not just saying this. Anyone who knows me knows it's true. I've never done this before. But I'm going to look it up right now, and I'm just going to read the first paragraph. I promise I've never... I don't even know where it is. Oh, there it is right there.

28:44Tucker Carlson:Oh, I knew I was going to use the first paragraph. It basically just says I'm a conservative political commentator. Okay. But I'm a leading voice of white grievance politics. White grievance politics. Okay. I thought I was going to be mad. I'm amused. I don't even know what that is. White grievance politics. Okay. Okay, so then you click on white grievance politics and it cites columnist Michael Gerson, who I happen to know. Not someone, I think he's passed away. I'm sorry. I don't want to make fun of him. But he's not a real, I mean, he was an ideologue. Okay. Big time ideologue. And it quotes his quote, non-primary source needed, it says in brackets, that the Republican Party has been swiftly repositioned as an instrument of white grievance.

29:34Tucker Carlson:I guess it was a column attacking me. No doubt about that. So they call me in the first paragraph a leading voice of white grievance politics. Not how I'd describe myself. I've never thought of myself that way. Right. I don't really care. And in order to call me, basically they're calling me a Nazi, of course. They cite a Washington Post columnist who hated me.

29:57Larry Sanger:Right.

29:58Tucker Carlson:And that's the citation.

30:01Larry Sanger:Right. Yes. That's pretty much it. If they were following a genuine neutrality policy, then they might say that if that was what your detractors were really focused on. And perhaps it is. But they would certainly, certainly quote you in response to that.

30:21Tucker Carlson:And they would give examples. I mean, it wouldn't be ad hominem. It would be, you know, quoting me saying white people are angry. We have a lot of grievances and they're justified. Okay. There he is. you know, espousing white grievance politics. Right. Yeah. I don't think I've done that, though I do think that, by the way. So maybe I am a white grievance politician. But whatever. I don't even care. But it's just interesting. They don't care either. The point is to make you sound scary and Hitler-like.

30:50Larry Sanger:Right. No, that's right. Yeah. I don't know what white grievance politics is, and I'm pretty sure you're not into it.

31:00Tucker Carlson:I'm actually not into it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I do think white people have been completely mistreated and they have every reason to be mad about it, but I don't want anyone to be mad about anything and I definitely don't want racial conflict. I've never wanted that. Yes. So, but whatever, but it's not about me and I'm sorry I even brought that up. No, it's fascinating. And that's all I'm ever going to read in my Wikipedia entry. But that's kind of the point. How is it allowed to use subjective terms with no clear definition in someone's entry, Those are that's a political term. That's a term of propaganda.

31:35Tucker Carlson:Yeah, it's a term designed to discredit not to illuminate or explain, but to attack. That's very common in political language. That is political language. But how is that? How is no editor like, wait a second, we don't even just we don't even define white grievance politics. How can we accuse someone of engaging in it? Yeah.

31:55Larry Sanger:There's a lot of history there, and we could take it in many different directions. I mean, we've already talked about the policy that permits it. We could also talk about the sources that are permitted. Like, if you look at only the sources that are permitted to be used in Wikipedia, so mostly secondary sources, and they are mostly left-wing or center, generally speaking, there is now a blacklist called the perennial sources page that contains lists of dozens of conservative sources. that are just not allowed. And so if the only defenders of Tucker Carlson can be found in those other sources, then you won't be defended in the article about you and they will call the article about you neutral.

33:01Larry Sanger:That's quite amazing. Who makes the decision on the blacklist? So there is a reliable sources group, essentially, that debates it. Now, there are people who spend the most time, you know, probably are working full time for somebody on Wikipedia. They build up a lot of clout.

33:30Tucker Carlson:What does that mean, working full time for somebody on Wikipedia?

33:33Larry Sanger:Well, there are PR firms, just for example, that do nothing but edit articles on Wikipedia in order to be able to insert desired factoids according to how people pay them, essentially. So it's a thing. Oh, yes. Wikipedia PR firms, essentially. And this is not allowed officially. It's called paid editing, a big no-no. And if you do do it, then you have to announce yourself. A lot of people do it and they don't announce themselves, of course. So my point then to answer your question is that there are a lot of people who have built up clout over the years in the Wikipedia system. and a lot of them have been made into the leaders of the project.

34:35Larry Sanger:There are 833 administrators, as they're called. So these are sort of the rank and file cops. Then you've got 16 bureaucrats who can name the cops. And you've got 49 check users. And these are accounts that can identify the IP address of accounts. And then there are 15 members of an arbitration committee, which is sort of like the Supreme Court of Wikipedia. Deals mostly with behavioral issues as opposed to editorial. So now, here's an interesting... Do we know who these people are? That's what I was about to answer. Of this power 62, because if you add up all of those accounts and there's overlap, there's 62 such accounts.

35:26Larry Sanger:Only nine, 14.5 % are named. So 85 % of the most powerful accounts on Wikipedia on the editorial side are anonymous. So, wait a second.

35:42Tucker Carlson:No, it's true. so again these are the people who are shaping americans understanding of the world of their own country of themselves of reality itself and we don't know who they are because their identities

35:57Larry Sanger:are hidden that's correct yes they can libel people with impunity as they as they do you um and and there is no legal recourse because they are anonymous and the Wikimedia Foundation enjoys Section 230 immunity, which means it can't be sued in the United States.

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38:05Tucker Carlson:Shop Folger's Instant Coffee and more at your nearest retailer. Okay. So my question is, there's nothing that can be done. They're protected by 230 immunity. Yeah. So they can't be sued into better behavior. Right. But presumably they can be shamed and reasoned with. And so the first step in that is just asking the question, on what grounds are you keeping the identities of some of the most powerful people in the country secret? Why can't I know who's making these decisions? who's blacklisting entire news organizations on the basis of their politics, for example. Who's responsible for the slander?

38:37Tucker Carlson:Why can't I know their names? What would Wikipedia, the foundation, say if I asked that question?

38:44Larry Sanger:They would say that according to the policies of the editorial side of their organization, which they're not responsible for, people can participate anonymously at all levels, right? So you could be the most powerful person on the editorial side and you don't need to reveal your identity. It's a matter of policy. Now, you know.

39:11Tucker Carlson:Talk about a non-answer. They're hiding their identities because they're allowed to. Okay, got it. Well, yes. But why are they allowed to?

39:21Larry Sanger:Okay, so I think the answer is basically it goes back to like the zeitgeist of 1990s hacker culture when people went on like these funny names, nicknames, handles, not their real names. And that has continued. It never stopped all across Wikipedia. People use these sort of cutesy names and they like to portray themselves to the public as just, you know, mop wielding janitors of the site. And of course, it's ludicrous. Right. But it's just as far as I can tell, it's a game that they're playing. They're putting on the air of being like harmless college students that are only interested in comma placement and that sort of thing.

40:19Larry Sanger:So why do you need to know my identity and so forth? But I'll tell you, people, they just haven't pressed them on this question.

40:27Tucker Carlson:And they should be pressed immediately. And I mean, because just in practical terms, as you said, it's ludicrous. Who has more effect on Americans or the world's understanding of history, the seven history departments of the Ivy League? or Wikipedia. It's not even close. It's not even close, not in the same universe. Yes. But if all of a sudden every history professor at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Dartmouth, Cornell, et cetera, decided, I'm not telling you my name as I teach your kids about the Renaissance or whatever, we would say, that's freaking nuts. Of course, I have to know your name.

41:03Larry Sanger:Right, right. And, you know, traditional media organizations, they name their editors and their journalists, of course. They have real world reputation to live up to. And if they do bad reporting, then they can be fired. They experience career consequences. And that simply doesn't happen on Wikipedia. Now, you know, people, they can mess up on Wikipedia and be kicked out. They can lose their administratorship, whatever that happens, I suppose. But it's not real world consequences, is it? Not really.

41:41Tucker Carlson:No, it's not. And I, so here's, okay, so I'm sort of getting to one of my core concerns, which you've made me think is something to be concerned about, which is the influence of intelligence agencies on the work product of Wikipedia. It's very obvious to me, having been around that world a lot, that they're influencing some of the answers, some of the entries on Wikipedia. It's super, super obvious. it's part of the propaganda campaign, which is the real war, the info war. And like, you must have thought of that when you were building this thing. Like, man, you know, the intel agencies could get involved and start changing the way people understand what they did, for example.

42:23Larry Sanger:No. You didn't, you never thought of it? No, I had no such idea. Not in 2001, in 2000, 2002, no. I mean, I was a babe in the woods. Yes, it wasn't until like, I think it was 2006, 2007, Virgil Griffiths did master's research. He came up with a tool called WikiScanner that enabled people to look up the IP addresses of people who had done edits. and who had edited which articles. And so they were able to find a whole bunch of edits coming from Langley.

43:14Tucker Carlson:No, I didn't even know that.

43:16Larry Sanger:No, it's true.

43:17Tucker Carlson:Not to brag, I could just tell by reading it. Because I know what that is.

43:22Larry Sanger:I since have learned differently and learned much better. I don't have the background that you have, But it's also very clear to me what we are told about the way that intelligence works now is that, of course, there's the old-fashioned cloak and dagger spying going on. But a large part of the remit of intelligence today is to manipulate public opinion in various ways. And Wikipedia is like just a goldmine for the intelligence agencies of the world because it's like a one-stop shop. You know, you can just like type in the things that you want people to believe, I suppose. Now, how that works, like which agencies are involved, how the heck should I know?

44:13Tucker Carlson:You can tell by reading it. You can tell instantly by reading it. Some of what's going on. I mean, you never know the whole story, of course. But it's super obvious to me, some of the players in this, very obvious, and they're the big ones, of course. So, but my question, and everything you've said makes sense. My question, however, is like, how is this allowed? So if you're not allowed to edit Wikipedia for pay on behalf of, say, a PR agency, how are you allowed to do it on behalf of an intelligence agency?

44:48Larry Sanger:That's a good question. I actually asked Elon Musk and the president to use Doge or other government resources to investigate what United States employees were actually editing Wikipedia. and perhaps stop that. I don't know. Maybe we shouldn't. Maybe there's legitimate reasons for government employees to do this. But at least Elon Musk did retweet that and got a lot of support. Did anyone do anything about it? What's that?

45:37Tucker Carlson:Did anyone do anything about it?

45:41Larry Sanger:Not to my knowledge. except now there is a congressional investigation. I don't know if my tweet had anything to do with the start of that. I don't think so. I think it had more to do with the reporting of Ashley Rinsberg.

46:00Larry Sanger:And, well, of course, Israel, and I would add, Hindus are very bothered with the way that their ethnic groups are treated. um in wikipedia and both of both of them both both a whole bunch of jews and a whole bunch of of hindus have been after me in the last couple of years saying you've got to speak out you've got to help us um you know and i've said well i don't really know a lot about the situation i

46:30Tucker Carlson:mean there isn't a whole lot that i could do will they be accused of indian or israeli grievance politics probably not what's that no sorry i'm just thinking like no i that was a bitter sardonic aside. No, excuse me. I take that back. I don't want to be a grievance person. But the answer, what you're really saying is people who are organized have a way to push back against the lying.

46:57Larry Sanger:For sure. For sure. I think that if like Israeli intelligence, for example, got together and made a real concerted effort to fight against this group of 40 Muslim activists that Ashley Rinsberg identified. They might be able to make some inroads.

47:27Tucker Carlson:You think they might be able to do that?

47:30Larry Sanger:They might. It really depends. It's possible.

47:34Tucker Carlson:I'll just throw that out there.

47:36Larry Sanger:Here's the thing. I actually think concurrently, we're going to talk about the nine theses here, I assume. So I would like to encourage people to at least test the waters. Don't go to Wikipedia and be a jerk and get yourself kicked out right away because they will kick you out for sure if you are not playing by the rules. But go there and maybe not all at once, but, you know, over the next few weeks, make some real efforts to make good faith edits to Wikipedia and build up some credibility within the community. You can make a difference there. I think it's a good idea to give it a try. You know, one thing that has never been tried is to simply get all of the libertarians and all of the conservatives and the Jews and the Hindus and the Christians and whoever else has grievances against Wikipedia.

48:46Larry Sanger:Organize them.

48:47Tucker Carlson:Yes.

48:48Larry Sanger:And descend on Wikipedia and actually try to make a change.

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50:45Tucker Carlson:Tax Act respects you. Tax Act. Let's get them over with. That never occurs to most conservatives. Their first instinct is to, I'll speak for myself. My first instinct is run away. I don't want to deal with this. It's horrible. I hate these people. And this is my internal monologue. And if I'm mad enough, we should start something better. It never occurs to your average conservative to take back the institution that's been perverted and corrupted. It never occurs to them, well, maybe I should, I don't know, try to join the faculty at Harvard and stop lying. Or why don't I fix Wikipedia? And I think that's your right.

51:26Larry Sanger:Yeah. So I think it was either the first or second interview that you did of me was in 2019 when I started something called a social media strike. and it actually went pretty well, but it always struck me that, first of all, I could have followed it up. And second of all, it could have been much bigger, like if I had organized it properly, but it was mostly just me and my blog, you know, and still there were like a half a dozen or 10 different media sources that covered this social media strike. so maybe we should organize something similar with regard to I think part of the problem is

52:12Tucker Carlson:that most non-liberals have just no patience for bureaucracy right and liberals because they you know as Ted Kaczynski famously wrote the whole point of liberalism is safety in numbers these are people who are hollow and afraid inside and so they seek each other out and they create these institutions so they can feel safe. And non-liberals just don't feel that way at all because they're not, you know, because they believe in something and they're not ruled by fear. And so the average conservative, when told to sit through like a PTA meeting or join the Wikipedia, you know, editor's process or something like, goes crazy, can't deal with it.

52:55Larry Sanger:Right, right. Do you notice this? Yes, and there's another sort of practical problem that stands in the way of this. You're not allowed to do what's called brigading on Wikipedia. So brigading means organizing editing of a particular article off the wiki. So if you're caught doing this, then you can be blocked. So if I were to tell everybody to go to the article about Larry Sanger, please don't do that. But if I were to try to organize that, like on this show right now, then I might be blocked for brigading.

53:41Tucker Carlson:But it's cool for like Saudi intelligence or Mossad or the CIA to do it. For sure. I mean, this is so bonkers. For sure. Okay. No, it's true. Got it. Yeah, got it. And it's so obvious. I mean.

53:57Larry Sanger:It's an obvious thing for them to do. They wouldn't be doing their job if they weren't doing it.

54:02Tucker Carlson:Right.

54:02Larry Sanger:Right? I mean, they're supposed to be shaping public opinion. That's part of their remit is the intelligence committee or community now. Right? Yeah. And the way to shape public opinion, one of the main ways is to make sure that Wikipedia reads the way you want it to read. And yes, then they can organize secretly behind the scenes. And they do. Yeah.

54:28Tucker Carlson:There's such a lot. I mean, I just happen to know some of the topics. Like I was there for not many things, but some things. and you read about, you know, something that you just happen to have direct knowledge of and it's the account of it is so intentionally distorted. It's such a lie. And then people, you know, you read about, it's like, wait, I remember when you had a DUI arrest or whatever, and it's gone.

54:57Tucker Carlson:If they can't even keep the paid PR people out, then that suggests to me that the people who edit wikipedia are probably making money on this like the fastest way would just be to bribe them right if you are really good at playing the wikipedia

55:15Larry Sanger:game and you're like one of these this power 62 and you're not in the pay of somebody then you're just leaving money on the table but that seems obvious to me well if we can't even know their

55:28Tucker Carlson:names, then what would be the disincentive?

55:30Larry Sanger:And that would be one of the reasons why we don't know their names. And that actually is one of the main reasons why I say we should know their names.

55:38Tucker Carlson:So I'm just calling on WikiLeaks, you know, Julian Assange, where are you?

55:43Larry Sanger:I cannot agree. I don't think that we should dox the Power 62. This is what I call them.

55:53Tucker Carlson:By dox, what do you mean? Does that mean like home address or does that just mean name?

55:57Larry Sanger:Name. A name is enough. That would be doxing them.

56:01Tucker Carlson:Okay.

56:02Larry Sanger:In the Wikipedia system, they are...

56:09Larry Sanger:Basically, anyone who reveals their name and they don't want their name revealed would be immediately blocked for doxing. And it would be a permanent block for sure. So, it's a very serious offense on Wikipedia. So, I am not encouraging people to do this.

56:27Tucker Carlson:Okay, that's fair. I respect the fact that you've thought about this a lot and much more than I have, and you're decent. And so you're probably right. I'm just frustrated. But I wonder, is there, it seems to me, knowing the names of the people making these decisions is in the public interest. That's for sure. These are not just random Twitter users, okay? They're shaping history. They are the authors of history. Certainly the gatekeepers of history.

56:53Larry Sanger:And they're libeling. We need to talk about that.

56:57Tucker Carlson:Well, they are, obviously. And I say this as Mr. Wake Reaven's politics. They certainly have libeled a lot of people I know.

57:10Larry Sanger:Yes.

57:11Tucker Carlson:Literally libeled, like saying things that are untrue about them.

57:13Larry Sanger:And there's no recourse, right? So this is the problem, right? John Siegenthaler Sr. called me up in 2005.

57:24Tucker Carlson:He was a newspaper editor from Tennessee.

57:26Larry Sanger:Exactly. He was a longtime publisher and editor of the Tennessean, one of the founding board members, I believe, of USA Today. So very important newspaper man.

57:38Tucker Carlson:And kind of a center-left liberal, I would say.

57:40Larry Sanger:Right. And he, the article about him said that he had been under suspicion of being responsible in some way for the assassination of RFK. and he was livid, of course, because he had actually worked on RFK's campaign and things like that. And he blamed me, and I kind of didn't blame him for doing so.

58:18Larry Sanger:And he opened my eyes to just how reputations can be harmed by people's Wikipedia articles. And I have heard from dozens and dozens, maybe over a hundred different reasonably famous people since then with grievances about the Wikipedia articles. And they're like at their wits end. They know I'm long gone from Wikipedia. And they don't know what to do, right? So I've kept abreast of this issue on Wikipedia quite a bit. And it bothers me because I take sort of personal responsibility. I feel personal responsibility, which is one of the reasons why I came up with the nine theses in the first place.

59:07Tucker Carlson:But what did Siegenthaler do? Like, was he able to get that off Wikipedia?

59:12Larry Sanger:He was able to get satisfaction. I don't think he got an immediate response and immediate reversal, but reasonably quickly. But I can't remember if it was before or after they had changed his article that he called me, but he wanted me to know, right? And I don't blame him. And another time, Philip Roth, the famous journalist. Philip Roth, the novelist? The novelist, yes. He contacted me also and was complaining that the story of the origin of the inspiration of the human stain was wrong on Wikipedia. He had gone to the Wikipedia talk page and said, hi, I am Philip Roth. And you've got the story wrong.

1:00:03Larry Sanger:And here's the real story. And they said, sorry, we can't use that. You're a primary source.

1:00:10Larry Sanger:I mean, it's ridiculous, of course. I mean, just what kind of person do you have to be to take that sort of disrespectful stance to somebody like Philip Roth and to twist your own rules in that way for almost petty reasons? There's a lot of petty power players on Wikipedia, I find. I believe that. The people behind this, they hide behind their anonymity. So there is no legal recourse when somebody is seriously libeled so that their career is damaged. I've heard from people whose careers were materially damaged.

1:01:01Tucker Carlson:Oh, well, I'm sure I'm one of them. By Wikipedia.

1:01:04Larry Sanger:Yeah.

1:01:06Tucker Carlson:Yeah. My recourse has just been to, you know, stay cheerful, focused on God and my family, you know, like not get mad, I think is kind of the only that's the only thing I've been able to do about it and not read it. Don't marinate in that. But I don't think it's just petty power. It's like global power because they're aligned with Google. The biggest search engine, the search monopoly that dominates English language search completely has a monopoly on it. And they have somehow made a deal with Google that allows them to be the top search result. So, for example, I just Googled myself for the first time ever.

1:01:43Tucker Carlson:And Wikipedia is the first result. Now, why would Wikipedia be the first result of me? I still work. I still have a job. So like, why would that be number one? Why would a bunch of anonymous editors get to be the first result on my name? Because they have a deal with Google.

1:01:58Larry Sanger:I can explain it. You very well could be right.

1:02:04Tucker Carlson:I bet my house on it, but.

1:02:06Larry Sanger:Right. Well, look, in the early days, Wikipedia was the only source of information on a whole bunch of topics. For sure. And then the way that the Google algorithm worked back then, if you ended up being the first source for a lot of topics, then your Google PageRank score was higher. And so Wikipedia just shot to the top of Google's PageRank algorithm. At least this is the story they tell, right? And so one of the reasons why Google or Wikipedia rather took off so quickly is this feedback loop that it had with Google, right? So, you know, Wikipedia would write 100 articles that never had any coverage by Google before.

1:03:03Larry Sanger:They would appear on Google. People would search for those topics and they would come to Wikipedia. and then the number of contributors would expand and lather, rinse, repeat, and there was exponential growth.

1:03:17Tucker Carlson:Well, so I think we're saying the same thing. I mean, you're describing the mechanism by which Wikipedia is the guaranteed first response to any query on a fact about a person or history.

1:03:29Larry Sanger:Right.

1:03:31Tucker Carlson:I mean, that's to say it doesn't matter kind of what the mechanism is. It's the result is the same.

1:03:36Larry Sanger:Yes, yes, yes. And they know that. Yes. And I guess what I'm saying is if there was an actual deal from the beginning, it would be from the beginning. And I wouldn't rule that out. I'm enough of a conspiracy theorist to say that's not totally impossible. In fact, how many startups can you say were the first reviews by any news source was the New York Times and MIT Technology Review? But those were the first reviews that were published by any mainstream source of Wikipedia.

1:04:15Tucker Carlson:Amazing.

1:04:17Larry Sanger:Yeah, that was in September of 2001. So we were immediately on the establishments.

1:04:24Tucker Carlson:Well, I mean, Wikipedia is a servant to the ruling class, obviously, which is corrupt. So Wikipedia is itself corrupt, the most corrupt. Yeah, you can't over... I must say my last editorial comment that I want to get to what we can do to make this better, and you've written extensively about it, but my last comment is that when people grouse about the media or corrupt news media, they're always referring to like companies that really don't matter like CBS or NBC or CNN or Fox News. It's like, who cares? They're all going away. They're totally discredited. Everyone knows that. And they won't even be here in 10 years.

1:05:04Tucker Carlson:Wikipedia has a much greater effect on how people understand the world than any of those media outlets. Wikipedia is a media outlet and it's never included in the list of corrupt media outlets. And that just bugs me.

1:05:18Larry Sanger:Well, can I push back slightly? Of course. People our age and older still do take CNN and NBC and all the rest very seriously. So, no, not the conservatives, but basically centrists. My mother votes Republican and she still watches the mainstream media. and it still defines her reality, essentially. So it's a generational thing.

1:05:51Tucker Carlson:It is. I'm just saying that the actuarial tables tell us that this has a limited shelf life. That's right. That's it. And just extrapolating forward 10, 15, 20 years, that stuff is not meaningful. Digital media is very meaningful and Wikipedia is the most meaningful. That's my only point. And I just think that someone should say that out loud.

1:06:14Larry Sanger:I agree. No, I think that's true. It's probably, Wikipedia by itself is more influential than the New York Times or any other single media source. And it works in tandem with the New York Times. Right.

1:06:33Tucker Carlson:Any chance of getting the New York Times blacklisted at Wikipedia? So you laugh. I don't think so. Well, I know for a fact that I'm more honest than New York Times. I mean, take a live text test. I really believe that I am, but I'm blacklisted and they're not. So, like, I just think that's not neutral, whether I'm right or wrong. Okay. You have, you know, following the example of our beloved German monk 500 years ago, written some theses that you want to nail to the front door of Wikipedia.

1:07:05Larry Sanger:That's right.

1:07:06Tucker Carlson:What are they?

1:07:08Larry Sanger:All right. let's go through the list right this should take about five minutes maybe

1:07:14Tucker Carlson:so take your time this is I just want to restate if you're coming to the video right now this is the creator of Wikipedia explaining how Wikipedia can be saved from corruption yes

1:07:24Larry Sanger:nobody has ever actually made a thoroughgoing reform proposal of Wikipedia this is the first time anybody has done that and it's certainly the first time I have done that there's been a lot of piecemeal of reform proposals, but this is thoroughgoing. And I'm trying, just as Luther did, I'm trying to start a conversation. All right. So this is not a...

1:07:47Tucker Carlson:I hope this starts a reformation. I do. I hope this starts what Luther started.

1:07:54Larry Sanger:Right.

1:07:54Tucker Carlson:A return to honesty.

1:07:56Larry Sanger:We'll be the Protestant Wikipedians. Okay. So the nine theses begin this way. Number one, end decision-making by consensus. So Wikipedia pretends to make difficult editorial decisions based on a process they call consensus. But it's a sham because this allows ideologues to silence dissent by falsely claiming, in effect, a unanimous agreement. But of course, there isn't unanimous agreement.

1:08:38Tucker Carlson:So the scientific consensus on climate change would be a perfect example of this.

1:08:42Larry Sanger:Would be a very good example. So the consensus, I say, as a description of how they arrive at difficult editorial decisions should be abandoned. Now, what they replace it with, that's a good question. But let's begin there.

1:09:02Tucker Carlson:And decision-making by consensus, because it allows an aggressive faction to overwhelm the skeptical faction. Exactly. It's really a cynical institutional fiction.

1:09:17Larry Sanger:It has to end. They can't call what they're doing consensus anymore. That's not a consensus at all, especially if they claim to be an open global project. Period. Right?

1:09:35Tucker Carlson:Period. Thank you. I agree. Number two, enable competing articles.

1:09:41Larry Sanger:So this is a little bit out there, but I think it's a good one. Since true neutrality is impossible, as we've been discussing under the current editorial monopoly, Wikipedia should allow multiple competing articles written from different declared perspectives, each striving for neutrality within its own framework. So let the people write alternative articles. And for this, let me quickly tell you about what I think.

1:10:13Tucker Carlson:That's not far out.

1:10:14Larry Sanger:No, it really shouldn't be.

1:10:16Tucker Carlson:Great idea.

1:10:17Larry Sanger:Yes. I mean, why not just allow, you know, there can be multiple articles titled Donald Trump. Right.

1:10:25Tucker Carlson:So you could have, you know, special report on Fox News or you could have the CBS Evening News. Then you could also have Joe Rogan. because that's what alternative media is.

1:10:35Larry Sanger:Right, right, right.

1:10:36Tucker Carlson:Why not? And people can decide what they believe.

1:10:38Larry Sanger:Yes. So, fine. Number three, abolish source blacklists, which we've already talked about this quite a bit. Wikipedia maintains a list of perennial sources, which serves as an ideologically one-sided blacklist of media sources, right? Right.

1:11:02Tucker Carlson:Can I ask, what is the justification for that? And like internally, we just don't believe them. They're not real. What are the criteria for determining authenticity of a news source?

1:11:16Larry Sanger:That's pretty much it. That's like my opinion. Well, they don't say it. It's just their opinion. They say as a matter of objective fact, we have... Right.

1:11:28Tucker Carlson:I got to start doing that. You know, studies show the New York Times lies. Therefore, you know, I'm just banning it.

1:11:35Larry Sanger:Well, you would think that that would hold some weight with an objective analysis.

1:11:42Tucker Carlson:Boy, definitely. I can tell you.

1:11:43Larry Sanger:Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. So you can't cite the New York Post, Fox News, or you on Wikipedia as a source. So I am making the modest proposal that this blacklist should be abolished. It was established in 2017. It's fairly new.

1:12:06Tucker Carlson:Right after Trump.

1:12:07Larry Sanger:What's that?

1:12:08Tucker Carlson:The year Trump gets inaugurated. That's right. They decide that we're just not going to hear from certain news organizations just because. Because objectively they're bad.

1:12:18Larry Sanger:Wikipedia may not cite the, well, for example, the New York Post. and we should actually investigate whether that decision was made at about the time that the Hunter Biden laptop story was breaking, right?

1:12:36Tucker Carlson:Is this public, by the way? Can I go on the Wikipedia site and find out what's blacklisted?

1:12:41Larry Sanger:Sure, just type in perennial sources, Wikipedia into any search engine and the first result will be this page.

1:12:49Tucker Carlson:And it names them, the blacklist?

1:12:52Larry Sanger:Oh, of course.

1:12:53Tucker Carlson:yeah it's all so color-coded green um you have the list do you mind if i do that really quick go right ahead okay so it's let me just do i just i'm testing your thesis so it's perennial uh source yeah lists wikipedia right well you're doing that i'll i'll um give you some fully

1:13:17Larry Sanger:approved sources. New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, The Nation, Mother Jones, GLAAD. Come on! These are all green lit, fully green lit. Okay. The blacklisted sources are Breitbart, Daily Caller, Epoch Times, Fox News, New York Post, The Federalist. So you can't use those as sources on Wikipedia.

1:13:46Tucker Carlson:Oh, wow. Well, they've got, of course. So is red, I'm looking at it now.

1:13:52Larry Sanger:Yes. Red means it's blacklisted. You cannot cite it as a source of facts. Maybe as a source of opinion, but generally that works out.

1:14:04Tucker Carlson:Anti-defamation league gets a green light.

1:14:07Larry Sanger:Only for some. Yes. If you're actually reporting about the Arab - The Israeli conflict? Yes, yes.

1:14:16Tucker Carlson:Okay.

1:14:17Larry Sanger:You may not cite them.

1:14:19Tucker Carlson:Interesting.

1:14:20Larry Sanger:So you can't find the Jewish perspective on the war so easily anymore on Wikipedia.

1:14:33Tucker Carlson:Catholic hierarchy. This is interesting.

1:14:37Larry Sanger:Yes. There's a serious academic encyclopedia of Christianity that is not allowed on Wikipedia. I was surprised to find that one.

1:14:48Tucker Carlson:Counterpunch is not allowed. They're naughty. They're naughty. Daily Caller not allowed. Of course. You started that, right? Daily Mail, not yet. I did start it. I've got nothing to do with it now, but I did start it. That's interesting. This is kind of incredible. Okay. I never hear about this. And we don't know who made this decision.

1:15:15Larry Sanger:Mr. X is the name of his account.

1:15:21Larry Sanger:Now, it's edited, of course, as Wikipedia pages are, by a whole bunch of other people.

1:15:27Tucker Carlson:LifeSite News not allowed. Right. Of course, the pro-lifers.

1:15:32Larry Sanger:Yeah.

1:15:33Tucker Carlson:That's interesting. I'm going to see if... This. OK, well, why does no one talk about this? Oh, Sputnik, of course, not allowed. Talkie, man, search me.

1:15:44Larry Sanger:I don't know why people aren't talking about it. It's obviously huge news. I think it's it's simply embarrassing for the left. And so the left aren't going to report about it. And the right has been reporting about it.

1:16:00Tucker Carlson:TV Guide allowed. The Unz Review, not allowed. TV Guide, totally cool. Unz, V-Dare, not allowed. This is so funny. This is amazing. Okay. All right. You've amused me deeply. Okay, I'm so sorry. I just had, I'm sorry for the, it's all so incredible to me. Okay. So, number three. Right. All right. Shall I go on then? Yes. And I will not interrupt. I just can't.

1:16:39Larry Sanger:So, to conclude the discussion of number three, the blacklist should be abolished. Diverse sources should be cited with acknowledgement of how different groups assess their credibility if necessary. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Number four. Revive the original neutrality policy. Wikipedia must return to genuine neutrality by refusing to take sides on controversial issues, even when one view dominates Wikipedia, well, academia and mainstream media. So, I suppose that one is fairly straightforward, and we've already discussed it quite a bit, that the neutrality policy right now defines neutrality in terms of what are called significant views and the reliable sources.

1:17:41Larry Sanger:and significant views are significant views according to, you know, the faculty members of Harvard and things like that. And if your view is held only at, you know, conservative seminaries, for example, or other bastions of conservatism, then they're not significant. At least that's how it's treated on Wikipedia right now. So that needs to be, Wikipedia should be a big tent as it used to be, enabling many, many different people to come together, you know, in a big, I just think of it as like old-fashioned liberal kumbaya, you know, people should be able to come together and talk to each other from radically different points of view and just make sure that their views are all respected on the same page.

1:18:33Tucker Carlson:Yeah, it shouldn't just be the most reactionary views, NBC, Harvard, you know, only the most kind of stalwart defenders of this broken project. Yes. Right. It shouldn't just be the College of Cardinals voting here.

1:18:49Larry Sanger:Right.

1:18:49Tucker Carlson:So in my opinion.

1:18:50Larry Sanger:Okay. Yes, yes. There's a good way to characterize the currently only permitted viewpoint on Wikipedia. And that is with the acronym GASP, which stands for Globalist, Academic, Secular, and Progressive. And each one is necessary. And together, they just give a perfect picture of the viewpoint of Wikipedians today, of most Wikipedians.

1:19:24Tucker Carlson:Do they know that they're like representing and selling the views of, say, the Aspen Institute or the Atlantic Council or the CIA or the Washington Post editorial board? Like it's such a tiny minority of the globe's population. Yes. But the most powerful people in the world, like they are the Praetorian Guard protecting the powerful. Do they see that?

1:19:47Larry Sanger:I think they do. I think a lot of, of course, it's a fairly big group of people, you know, in the single digits, thousands of regular editors these days. I think a lot of those people do know that and they take pride in it, frankly. Yeah.

1:20:05Tucker Carlson:In oppressing the rest of the population on behalf of the richest and most powerful.

1:20:09Larry Sanger:They don't think they're doing that, but yeah. That's exactly what they're doing. Yeah.

1:20:12Tucker Carlson:By lying to people, you oppress them.

1:20:14Larry Sanger:Yeah. Right. All right. Then number five. So just a little throat clearing here, a short little proposal. Repeal ignore all rules. So there is a policy called ignore all rules, which I came up with in the first few days of the project. Originally, I meant it as a joke to encourage newcomers, right? So, like, if rules make you nervous and, like, you're not sure what to do, then just ignore them and go about your business. That's essentially what I said.

1:20:52Tucker Carlson:It's a good rule for responsible, honest people.

1:20:55Larry Sanger:And this became essentially a cargo cult. You know, over the years, people started using this to shield insiders from accountability. So I made this rule. And so I now declare that it should be repealed.

1:21:14Tucker Carlson:How has it been used to protect corruption?

1:21:19Larry Sanger:Well, generally what happens is if somebody can't think of a covering rule in a special case, but it just seems plausible to the people who are working on an article. Right. This really ought to be against the rules or whatever. Just ignore all rules. and they'll just say that, you know, and they usually say in a kind of tongue-in-cheek way, but in a way that's serious enough to actually have an effect, right? But, you know, a lot of lesser contributors, they wouldn't be able to get away with that sort of thing. So there's one guy who said at the height of COVID, if there is one serious application of ignore all rules.

1:22:09Larry Sanger:It should be now. We should be able to ignore all the rules regarding whatever in order to get people to believe that COVID is serious and they should be jabbed and masked. And the vax is the only answer to it.

1:22:25Tucker Carlson:Yeah. So basically we should, if you, when you ignore all rules after a while, you're ignoring all principles and they're doing it again in the Selectively. Yeah, selectively in the service of like the most powerful people in the world. Right. Okay.

1:22:43Larry Sanger:Number six, reveal who Wikipedia's leaders are. So we've talked about this.

1:22:50Tucker Carlson:Why is that number one? I like that one.

1:22:52Larry Sanger:Yes. So Wikipedia's most powerful editors remain overwhelmingly anonymous despite wielding enormous influence over one of the world's most powerful media platforms. These leaders must be publicly identified for accountability and given liability insurance as volunteers of nonprofits often are. So there's no reason why they shouldn't do this.

1:23:21Tucker Carlson:If you're wielding real power, I think it's, and by the way, I like anonymity online a lot of the time because I think it helps the underdog tell the truth. And so I am for anonymity on social media, for example. I don't think you should have to register with the government to give your opinions, just to be clear. But if you're wielding real institutional power, I think it's fair to require people to say who they are. Just like Supreme Court justices have to give their real names. Right?

1:23:50Larry Sanger:Right. It's a no-brainer. If there is one thing that might get the attention of the mainstream media, it seems to me it might be this one. I don't think it's widely known that 85 % of the most powerful accounts on Wikipedia are anonymous. How is that allowed?

1:24:12Tucker Carlson:No, I know. I couldn't agree more. It's just disgusting. And by the way, there are consequences to having your identity known, I can tell you. And they're not great. On the other hand, you know, that's the price that you pay for having influence. I don't know. That's fair.

1:24:27Larry Sanger:Right. And by the way, I don't want those people to be doxed. I'm going to say it again. And I'm not saying that the people who are there should be forced to reveal their identity or anything like that. They can resign. I agree. And then new people can be brought on board. That's exactly right. And then maybe, if necessary, you could pay them a little stipend for their trouble. They've got, they're raising, I think, something like$200 million a year now, right? It's a huge amount of money.

1:25:00Tucker Carlson:As I said, I was a donor. Yeah, no, I get it.

1:25:03Larry Sanger:Yeah. Okay.

1:25:08Larry Sanger:Let the public rate articles. That's number seven. Wikipedia should implement a public rating and feedback system allowing readers to evaluate articles. They can't do that now.

1:25:20Tucker Carlson:We call it that that's the comment section, but they don't have a comment section.

1:25:24Larry Sanger:They don't have a comment section. They don't have any sort of rating section. There are no metrics that they can use. They've metricized everything, you know, books on Amazon, you know, thumbs up on X and, you know, YouTube and whatnot, but not Wikipedia. And if there's one. Never thought of that.

1:25:44Tucker Carlson:What's that? I've never thought of that. That's so smart.

1:25:46Larry Sanger:Yeah, well, and look, if there's one place where an actual rating system would matter and actually be important, it would be Wikipedia. Because we, I think you and I agree that Wikipedia does have some decent articles.

1:26:04Tucker Carlson:Some great articles. Yeah. You want to learn about the Falkland Islands? You want to learn about some bird species? Yeah, it's amazing. That's why it's so frustrating. Yes.

1:26:14Larry Sanger:So, I mean, wouldn't it be nice if there were some independent reviews, independent of Wikipedia, that would, you know, give the public a notion of whether they can actually trust the information? And I actually think that you should be able to identify and even rate the raters and say, OK, these accounts who have rated the Trump article very highly are mostly Democrats. And those that rate the article very poorly are mostly Republicans. And then there should be a system that would enable you to go and learn what the best articles are, especially if they're competing articles, again, from anybody's point of view.

1:27:07Larry Sanger:Yes. I love that. Would be nice. Let's see. Um, thesis number eight, end indefinite blocking. Wikipedia's practice of blocking accounts permanently is unjust and ideologically motivated. So I did a little personal investigation last June. In a period of two weeks, 47 % of the blocks that had been done by Wikipedia were indefinite, which means permanent. And you can sort of understand some of them because you're re-blocking the same people who have already been blocked because they made new accounts. Those are called sock puppets. is still a very, very high number, right? And they do, as I have said, block willy-nilly, and they will block permanently.

1:28:06Larry Sanger:I mean, there are people online who complain that they were blocked for making grammar corrections. I've seen, I don't know, three or four cases of just that. I quote a few in the essay. So each of these theses, by the way, has a whole essay to go with it, which I very carefully wrote over the last nine months.

1:28:33Tucker Carlson:And where can interested people find that?

1:28:36Larry Sanger:They can find it on my user page on Wikipedia. So just go there. I don't know if it'll be on the user page or maybe it will be linked from the user page, but it'll be on Wikipedia itself. So I actually want to take the debate to them. You know, I still have an account in good standing for now. We'll see if they block me over this. I'm not sure.

1:29:01Larry Sanger:But I would like to start a debate there. So that's why I've posted it there. I also have a version of the nine theses on my blog. and it's identical, but it also has links to archived versions of all the resources that I cite. So they can't like take anything down without people knowing. Let's see. So I think that basically indefinite blocks should be extremely rare. They should require multiple administrators to agree because right now one person can, for arbitrary reasons practically, block another account, an account in good standing that might have had like thousands of edits without really any meaningful recourse, right?

1:30:00Larry Sanger:So at least let's have a panel of people convened if you want to block somebody permanently.

1:30:10Larry Sanger:And of course, you should be able to appeal your permanent block if you are permanently blocked every maybe three, six, maybe 12 months, right? So the idea is it's only fair to give people the opportunity to say, well, I've reformed, I'm not going to do what I've done before. People, you remember the movie Escape from Alcatraz? Yes. There was a character in it who's befriended by Clint Eastwood's character, who's this great painter. And he makes a painting of the warden. The warden sees a copy of this as he's snooping around in a cell. And it's an unflattering picture of the warden. So, that man's painting supplies are taken away by the warden, and they have so few joys in this place.

1:31:15Larry Sanger:It's like living death. And so, the painter then commits suicide. But a lot of people feel very strongly about Wikipedia because it is a significant hobby in some cases, you know, in the way that like I play Irish fiddle. That's like my one of my big hobbies. And I don't know, you're fly fishing, I guess. If you were to take this away from people forever, you know, just disallow them, then, you know, it can be really upsetting to people. One person, there's a story I quote in the essay of a guy who came close to suicide when his account was blocked. And you know how they responded? They responded, Wikipedia is not therapy.

1:32:07Larry Sanger:There's an essay to this effect. You know, Wikipedia is not therapy. No, it's cruelty. That's basically what they're implying.

1:32:16Tucker Carlson:Yeah.

1:32:17Larry Sanger:Okay.

1:32:18Tucker Carlson:Right. It's a way to hurt people.

1:32:21Larry Sanger:So that should stop. They should be nicer, frankly, to the people who are spending so many hours on the system. Number nine, adopt a legislative process. So if you take all eight together, you might very well ask, how can these changes be made? So Wikipedia is extremely institutionally conservative. It's hard to change from within.

1:32:51Tucker Carlson:It's the DMV, I noticed.

1:32:53Larry Sanger:Yes. So what I propose is that because they lack any method of major reform, there is nothing like an editorial council on Wikipedia. Because it needs major reform now, especially, it needs an elected editorial legislature with real powers to implement reforms established through Wikipedia's first constitutional convention. So Wikipedia should treat itself as a kind of polity, which until now has been a strange mixture. For years and years I have said this. It is a strange mixture of oligarchy and anarchy, right?

1:33:45Tucker Carlson:Like America itself.

1:33:49Larry Sanger:Right. Right. So and what they really need to do is have a serious constitutional convention, take their own governance, editorial governance seriously. And I'm not saying this would be run by the Wikimedia Foundation. It would be run by the volunteers. Of course, the Wikimedia Foundation would pay for the constitutional convention and also for the travel expenses of people who later come together in an editorial assembly, which would meet face to face. Right. Because these people have to be identified one person, one vote. And for that matter, I also say that if you vote for the people in such an editorial assembly, then you have to be identified not necessarily publicly, but to someone to ensure that there is indeed only one person, one vote.

1:34:47Larry Sanger:Because right now, that's one of the big problems about voting in the Wikipedia community. Because Wikipedia is anonymous, it's only too possible for people to run multiple sock puppets or they run separate accounts that they pretend belong to different people, right? And then that gives them more than one vote. That's not fair.

1:35:11Tucker Carlson:No. Yeah.

1:35:12Larry Sanger:So it should be the editorial assembly, I'm saying, should be run face to face, you know, can meet in different places in the world. And, you know, people could be paid a stipend for both travel and just like an ordinary legislature.

1:35:30Tucker Carlson:I would donate to that. I donate in a real way to that. Because what you're I think what you're really saying, which is what Martin Luther was really saying, is this is really serious. This is worth reforming because it matters.

1:35:42Larry Sanger:Yes, it really matters.

1:35:43Tucker Carlson:It's not all bad. By the way, the idea of Wikipedia is a beautiful idea, an important idea. You know, broadcasting truth at scale, like that's just always a good thing, right? And so it's worth saving. It's imperative to save it. And like running it like out of your garage without the safeguards that you've described just makes you pray, of course, to the worst people in the world. PR firms, intelligence agencies, paid liars.

1:36:09Larry Sanger:Right, right. I think that if there is one of all of these theses, if there is one that the mainstream media and governments around the world might be able to get behind, it is this idea that they need to get their house in order and start, have a council of people that take responsibility for the shape of policy. Exactly right. That's exactly right.

1:36:40Tucker Carlson:I mean, because it's like, if you don't like Google, you could say, well, it's on Narpeh Shai's fault. If you don't like any publicly traded company, at least you can identify the person making decisions or responsible for the decisions. But here you have this shadowy, incredibly influential institution. And there's no requer. You can't even be mad at someone because you don't know who they are.

1:37:01Larry Sanger:Right.

1:37:03Tucker Carlson:What you're saying, I so appreciate the seriousness with which you take this, the brilliance that allowed you to create this in the first place. And I hope that people listen to you. I hope they understand how much it matters.

1:37:14Larry Sanger:Thank you. I appreciate it.

1:37:15Tucker Carlson:Thank you. Good to see you again. It's the third time we've done an interview. I don't know. Fourth, actually. Fourth. Okay. Okay. I care about this. I hope other people start to care too.

1:37:27Larry Sanger:Second time in person. So, yes.

1:37:31Tucker Carlson:You're making me feel crazy. I'm obviously obsessed. But there's a reason I am. And it has nothing to do with me. It has to do with history and the collective memory, which is another way of saying you're civilization. It can't exist unless it understands itself.

1:37:46Larry Sanger:I appreciate your interest and your support. I'm very grateful for it.

1:37:52Tucker Carlson:Well, I mean it. Thank you very much.

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