20Product: Loom CPO Janie Lee on Three Core Skills that Make the Best PMs, How to Find, Pick and Train the Best PM Talent and Lessons from OpenDoor and Rippling on Product Breadth, Pricing and Talent Density

27:08And that made the jump really hard because obviously the man dried up. And when that happened, we built a bunch of features that like not a lot of companies or customers actually needed. Customers were no longer willing to buy walled wall without that natural usage. I think it's really important to figure out your sales motions at SMB and mid market because you're getting forced to learn especially from a go -to -market perspective. What to build, how to sell, how to create resident messaging. On the other hand, and things that we're kind of learning as we integrate with Kulpasian is, you're either in or you're not, at some point, in building for enterprise.

27:48The jump to go from PLG to enterprise is a pretty big one at some point, and you could progressively get there, over the course of years, but at some point, when you're talking with multiple big customers, they kind of need it all when it comes to the enterprise requirements. And what I mean by the kind of need at all is a lot of large customers may not need data residency, but they need XYZ. A different customer may not need XYZ, but they need a different permutation. And I think it becomes really, really painful for product teams to constantly figure out what is the next thing that we have to build to unlock this much more revenue.

28:30And instead, I think having the top down commitment that like, hey, we want to win that enterprise. We're not going to iteratively get our way there over the course of four years. And at some point, I think the switch needs to turn on where, as you're seeing more demand from these customers, you need to make a real commitment, both from a staffing perspective, and on R &D as well as Go to Market, that you're really going to win and go all in. I think at some point, after a certain amount of demand, you just need to get there and change the way you fundamentally operate. What is the tipping point for when you will change product roadmap to gain a segment of revenue?

29:09So you have your product roadmap and then deviated well away from it is another product requirement, but it unlocks 10 million in error from two or three large customers. When do you say yes we will deviate versus no we won't? Two answers to this, I think there is the one off feature answer of hey if certain things hit a certain revenue threshold, let's do it. And I'd say before a company makes a real commitment to enterprise, let's typically the way it's a create some revenue threshold actual number itself, I think is less important and more relative to like what your business needs. At a larger scale, the broader commitment comes from at what point is PLG not going to be enough and how do we anticipate that?

29:54I think there's a really great article called the PLG trap that starts to outline why PLG companies to be truly enduring companies need. Both PLG and sales lead. The company needs to figure out at what point are they they willing to invest to kind of go more full in relative to considering inbound requests at a customer and feature by feature level. I spoke to so many of our mutual friends and they said that one of your great skills was writing and I do just want to dig in on this because I think it's so cool to the role of PM. What are your single biggest piece of advice to PMs on rising and written communication?

30:32I think writing can be a very powerful tool to clarify your own thinking and thoughts. For me, the process in it of itself is the forcing function to develop really, really clear thought and do it at scale so that you don't need to be in every meeting to scale the context or the why or the how, especially in a hybrid world, to get to really, really clear writing. I think it requires you and assumes that you understand things so well that you can explain them to other people quickly. And I really, really encourage all of our pms to be writing things that are when it requires a ton of detail, go there, but what is the one or two page that everyone can read such that they know the what and the why and the how and know exactly what their job is and can create enough context such that when they're making micro decisions in their everyday, you trust that they have the underlying context.

31:31So I'm a PM and I'm not great at writing and I didn't love writing. What would you advise me to get better at writing? Yeah, from a actual tactics perspective, it's not going to be fun, but it's to write more. And when you say write more, in more way like write PRDs more, write updates for teams more like what should I write? All of the above I literally for folks who on my team are trying to get better at writing. I kind of anchor on a few things as really really tactical tips. The PRD aspect it's much higher stakes and so requires a ton of revs which is everything you need to do needs to be a great PRD for someone who is not good at it.

32:11You need to get started earlier, get more revs in and get the feedback before it's at a place where people are ready to consume. I think another easier day -to -day lower stakes way to get better at writing is taking the mindset of how do I make every single meeting I have more effective by clear writing. And so from a pre -meeting perspective, it's, hey, you should actually send out the goals and the agenda and the desired outcomes of your meeting to everyone that is attending a day before the meeting. I think it requires you to clarify your own thoughts of what is the best possible outcome of this and then do people know what they're expected to do as they get to the meeting?

32:51I think after meetings is also something that I encourage PMs to be great at, which is after the meeting happened, how do you distill the key takeaways and the summaries assembly and the action items? And if you take one look at it, it might feel like a lot of program management, but I think on the other hand, it also feels like forcing great writing, which is distill the things that matter most, make sure people know what they are and make sure they're communicated in a way that lands. Even the process of forcing people to think about something before, like, set event, forcing people to take set event or learnings to still it down again is just building that muscle of, like, distilled, distilled, distilled, distilled, and repeat, repeat, repeat.

33:33Very, very specific tactic, but I think it's a lower stakes way to just force yourself to get better. The more specific the better, so never ever worry about that. Can I ask you, what are the biggest mistakes that UCPMs make when it comes to writing? We're invomiting, honestly. I think people often share their writing before they get to distillation. And so people oftentimes mistake volume of writing with depth of thought or clarity of thought. And you can get into a strategy or PRD beyond page 8 and still ask yourself, I don't know what I'm reading. There are a lot of details here. There are a lot of edge cases or requirements, but I still don't know what, why, and how.

34:16And so that's number one, which is before you think it's ready, you probably want to take five more rows at simplifying is the biggest one. The second one is not knowing who your audience is. Writing for an exact team to manage up is very different for writing for your engineering team who's going to take this and turn it into lines of code and the level of context we need is very different but also the language and the wise is very very different and so I'd call it those two is the things that I see who's stopping. I totally agree with you there in terms of like the ICP of the content. I say with every piece of content that we do, like who's the buyer?

34:54Because it also changes the positioning of every single question you ask. Why do I ask that about like what are the mistakes? Because I'm putting my hat on of like I'm an aspiring PM or I'm a product leader measuring the skills of a PM. Totally agree with you there. Apparently you're amazing at question asking, which is something that I spend a lot of time thinking about being obviously an interviewer. What are your biggest lessons on what it takes to ask great questions? Yeah, I think for anything that is coming my way or to my desk, I have to be able to answer like some combination of these questions for myself.

35:27And if I can't, then that's when I ask a question. The first is just like, can explain really simply, like what it is we're doing, and why are we doing this? And am I convinced it's worthwhile? If not, let's not take this conversation any further. Like we have to have to get to good resolution here. Otherwise the solution, how we get there, the people you need to get there, they don't matter. And so that's my first level of like, am I convinced? And like, can I explain it? If not, like, that's fine. You might have a great answer and I'm just not there yet and you need to explain it to me or maybe I'm there And we just haven't gotten to like the root cause of why and then I think as we get to like more of the Secondary tertiary level of questions.

36:09I think it's like can I for myself identify the most important things that we need to answer or The biggest risks if yes like what is the relative cost of not answering those or are like getting the answer wrong That will determine like how deep do I go if it's really really consequential I'm gonna keep digging in if it's not consequential I don't want to create more work for my team and so I might still ask the question But like how deep do I go is really really dependent on like what is the risk of getting this wrong? And then I think the the last thing that I ask for myself is like is there any context that I I uniquely have that this two needs, or like an area where I just need to be connecting dots.

36:53That answering that question for myself might not result in a question, but I think like my job in a lot of meetings, if I'm speaking, is like ask the right questions that are most important, or like share the context that people need so that they have a more foundational north star or why of what they're doing, or even know where and who they need to be talking to. If I'm able to answer these questions for myself, I'm pretty silent. I don't want to dominate the conversation and if I can't I think it's critical that I ask these questions so that We don't a month before launch realize like all of these things are in place I have two lessons from you which is like you have two to five minutes at the beginning of every meeting where you have the chance to set the tone of vulnerability and openness vulnerability generally brews on her birthday actually I'm struggling with x right now I loved how you think about it.

37:43When you ask for advice from someone, it engenders the feeling that they're sharing and giving and it makes them much more willing to open up in the future conversation. So I always do that in the first two to five minutes and then I would also say the big things that people make is they're not comfortable in silence. Sometimes you have to ask a question and let it sit and not continue and like the magic will happen in the silence. And I find too many people aren't comfortable in silence when asking questions, two big things to me. Yeah, I agree completely, I think. Only the silence do people finally say the things people won't say and that's usually right when the good conversation starts and so I agree completely.

38:20The hard element is in interviewing and in hiring and I am a angel investment of yours, okay, and I'm hiring a product team. How do you advise me an early stage company on how to structure my hiring process for product team and product people? Too fold and it really depends on are you trying to hire someone more senior or more specialized or not? You tell me we're the meeting in our all got some customers, but I'm not that late and I'm not that early I personally am a huge fan of junior pms They have a few key traits that I look for. I think one is just like incredibly high horsepower both on the IQ and EQ front The second is effort hungry people who are going to work hard naturally just have a much steeper slope because they're simply doing more in the same amount of time and getting all those reps in and I think the last one is, are they coachable?

39:14Do they have the humility to know that they still have a ton to learn and are able to adapt? And I think junior folks are oftentimes the cheapest from a pure salary perspective, but also can be a huge force multiplier and just the large arbitrage opportunity. And especially in earlier days can hire for these like generalists who have these three traits. so you can really train them to be effective PMs very quickly. It doesn't get you all the way to the hair, but for earlier stage, like if you have someone who can spend the time with junior folks, I'm a huge fan. What are the questions that we ask in every interview?

39:50What are the master's questions for productize? I think in those initial parts of the top of funnel, I'm trying to get a really good sense of, like, what is your track record of impact, like how introspective are you? and like, is there alignment on the opportunity? And then I think as you get closer to deciding if you want to hire a candidate, look for a much higher signal on the ability to tackle the problems that we're tackling. On a track record of impact, like unpack that for me, what questions do we ask? I think one is super straightforward, which is like, what is your background and what's your biggest professional accomplishment?

40:25And why? I dig way, way deep into how or what they did and why they consider that to be their professional biggest accomplishment. What do you want to hear there? What do you not want to hear? One is talking less about the feature that you shift or even I think the first good answer is I shipped something that had this impact. I think a great answer tells me this is the problem the company or the product was facing. This is why it was one of the most important things and critical to solve. This is how I want about figuring out that it needed to be solved, how it needed to be solved. This was my role.

41:03This was like the process in which I solved it. And this is how it landed with customers. And like most often, if people really, really drove outcomes and like tackled something hard, they're not going to get it right the first time. And so, talking to you about like reality versus plan and how you actually forced the reality to match up closer to plan. And I think someone who's really owned something and tend understands and why they were doing what they were doing and tying it back to the inference is really, really critical. And they've seen people do this exceptionally well, even if they're not working on the most important thing from a top three company priority perspective, right?

41:44Like, building folks or a lot of platform product managers have to sell the why and the importance of what they do. And I think exceptional ones can talk about how it ties to the business rather than just building for scale and things like infra. And so I love to dig deep. I can talk to a candidate for 20, 30 minutes just on this question alone and leave feeling pretty confident on whether or not I want to keep having the conversation. What percent of the moon press you? It depends on if I have proactive outreach or in pounds. I think proactive outreach because I'm almost feeling the back channeling upfront, probably like 50, 75 % in pounds much, much lower just because there's really only one filter that's how things through my recruiting partner.

42:29Okay, so we're testing for HOTA skills. What do we do to test for HOTA skills? And do we do case studies? Do we do any material tests? I love, I know it's controversial, a take home, particularly before the super day. And I use the take home 2 -1 assess, should they come and meet the whole team, very expensive use of team time and their time. And then 2, if they'd come to the team to start to test out how they actually work with people. Are they actually able to to interact with critical questions? Do you come off as defensive or curious when probed? And so taking a step back, take home usually very, very ambiguous problem that we like to give folks that are tied to the work they're going to do.

43:12So you give them a loom problem specifically? Yep. And I say, hey, we are like Like roughly in this stage of maturity for our loom creator experience, like tell us what what you would do to drive a step change improvement and getting more folks to create. Pretty broad, you can really take it in any way and for me it highlights a few hard skills. Like one is just, can you add clarity of thought to a really ambiguous problem and clear structure that folks can be convinced by? I think the second thing I look for is real creativity. Can you teach me something new or make me think about something in a completely new way?

43:52And I think last one is high effort and preparation. I think like a good take home looks polished, well organized, thorough, smart, and like reads really well. Great looks like you've actually gone so far as to like create mocks or tell me about competitors and have actually gone through and maybe recorded looms of different competitors. And I think that level of effort and preparation are highly indicative of how someone will attack something, how quickly and how deeply they will attack it. Is it a big investment and a big ask from candidates? Absolutely. Yes. I think I'm extremely cognizant and grateful for that.

44:31But I think if there's a job you absolutely want, you're going to put in the effort and preparation. and I actually want it to see that and what that looks like because I think it almost translates to how are they going to be in their first 30 days? Are they going to spend their first 30 days meeting people having one on lens? Are they going to spend their first 30 days absorbing context but also getting really, really, really deep in their understanding and actually come out of that 30 days with a point of view? What percent of people do you put in the process of taking a day of the team's time doing the test and then they don't get it?

45:04So you're asking how many people make it from take home to super day or super day to offer what is super day Super days when they're meeting everyone on the team and really okay So basically we have first interview and like hey, you're good enough and then we do the take home and then the super day What is the progression rate between each again? I think it depends on type of candidate if it's a really strategic Outbound pretty high and then if it is inbound I'd say most of the drop -off happens before it even gets to me, which is my recruiter will parse out all the resumes. By the time it gets to me, I'd say between initial conversation to take home, probably like 25 percent.

45:46What are the biggest reasons super days don't convert? One thing that I love in our super day outside of the typical one -on -ones you have with leadership cross -functional partners is actually a 45 -minute hour deep dive on the take home itself. It's a small group of people within Loom who show up. They've gone through your take home already, have watched a Loom, and just come prepared with a bunch of questions. They're not meant to be trick questions. We treat them as we would in a product review, which is, hey, we have a bunch of questions we want to learn more. Let's use the time to up -level, like, craft and quality of decisions.

46:23And I think the candidate's ability to interact with the team is really, really high signal. Like I said earlier, like when asked hard questions, are they curious or are they defensive? When are they open to being challenged? And like, when do they have really high conviction? Do they have any high conviction at all? And are willing to defend some of their points of view? Or are they willing to be open to others? And how do you actually just naturally work with other folks? I think this environment is pretty akin to what you would be doing in your day to day with the team. And so I think it's as close to like real life simulation as possible.

47:02And it's not a random case study, you've already taken the time to think through this. And so I think it also solves for the fact that like not everyone is good at a random case study on the spot. How do you do when you thought about something put in the time and are there being asked to really grapple with hard questions? How quickly do you know when you've made a bad in product. Probably within the first two to three months, I think it's a few things. I think one is ability to deliver real impact and impact doesn't need to mean you moved to metric. It's like, is your team in a healthier spot?

47:38Did you drive clarity into a really ambiguous part of the strategy that we haven't had before? Bad hires spend the first three months still onboarding and still getting an assessment or the lay of the land. And I think the time from content and information absorption into behavior and impact. Three months is plenty of time to see that. If they can't do it then, I haven't seen yet someone who's able to do it in six months or nine months if they weren't able to do it in that first three months. Final one for me to do a quick part is just like product reviews are a cool part of the role of a product leader.

48:14How do you do product reviews? How do you stretch them who's invited, who sets the agenda, just help me understand that. Yeah, so we have two types of product reviews that we have hold on the calendar for every week. One is an exact review and one is more of a casual product crit. The exact reviews are typically for products that are really high stakes because they're high cost, really strategic. One way door type products where if we get it wrong, it's going to be really bad. And so for that these reviews, I, other execs, will at the beginning of the quarter say, like this product needs to go through the review cycle or PMs can self -nominate.

48:53There are different types of discussions that happen in these exec reviews based on the product lifecycle. If it's earlier on, it's problem definition, like we're not looking at mocks, we're just saying, are we solving the right business and customer pain point and you have to identify both. You have to identify what is the business outcome we're achieving and like how are we making our customers lives better. And then I think as as products get more mature, we start to get into solutions and we have exact reviews on the solutions. I want the product teams to come to the table with a few options but be really really opinionated on which one they recommend.

49:31And then I think the last one is a bit more in the weeds on execution. So once the team is built out the solution, how do we gain confidence that this is going aligned with customers and starts to bring in go to market and really talk about how we'll will deliver this product. And we've evolved this process a ton. The few things that really have made this effective are the rituals we have like before, after and during the review itself. What are those rituals? Before a exact review, the product leader or the PM will send out a the loom pre -watch 24 hours ahead of the review. The expectation is that before people come to this review that everyone's watched the review, they've all dropped in feedback and questions already.

50:18And I think most important, the feedback that is inputted into this artifact is prioritized in a self -categorization way. And so I think one of my favorite sayings from someone I worked with at OpenDore is questions are cheap, answers are expensive, in the executive review should not try to get through all the questions. And so for every artifact, there's always a section of the answer. What is questions that cheap, all of those expensive main and product? Look, for anything that you're shipping, we can ask any question that we want and try to get more information. But there are going to be questions that are absolutely critical to answering, such that we are building the right things for customers.

51:02There are things that are important to know and might change some decision making or execution. And then there are a lot of questions that are actually just like curiosity. And I think you bring in more and more people. They're going to be many, many curiosities. It's really important to identify when asked a question, which one of these are they? And it should directly correlate with the amount of time I spend grappling with it because the more time you spend answering questions, there are diminishing returns for sure. and it's time you're not spending in actually building the product. It's interesting one of my great friends is Gustav Sodistrum.

51:38He's the CPU at Spotify, and he said that talk is cheap, and so we should do more of it. How do you feel when you hear that? I agree. How expensive is it to actually do the the cheap talk exploration and when are you doing it? I think timing is really important. I think when you're at the beginning stages, like any All ideas like welcome helpful, but as you get further and further along I I tend to agree you need to start prioritizing and when you don't then I think you actually are causing a ton of distractions and so when in the process are you collecting this and the types of questions that might be critical at the problem definition stage are No longer critical once you get to execution and so I think it's when and why you're asking matter a ton and you should to welcome it, but context in timing matters a ton.

52:29And the meeting itself, the full 45 minutes to an hour, is spent on just the P -0s. And so because we asked people to prioritize, it's probably been the biggest unlock. And also it allows people to join the conversation. I think in previous worlds, it was really hard to open up meetings without sacrificing speed to make decisions and when you force everyone to prioritize their questions, context, or thoughts, you're able to scale context much more quickly and still maintain the integrity of really focused discussions. And that combined with after these reviews, making sure that product folks are closing the loop to share and scale context is the other important thing.

53:15We don't always make decisions that everyone loves coming out of these exact reviews, but it's really, really important for people to talk about what the decision was, why it was made, what are the known risks or cons to making this and why we make them anyway and that's the only way you get to disagree and commit. I do want to do a quick fight so I'm going to pat for you with some questions and then you hit me with your immediate thoughts. This one's not on the sheet but I'm interested. What skill do you think is really important for product leaders that you don't think you have yet? Storytelling at scale.

53:47I think at every level of product management, you need to be a great storyteller and the audience and reach that you have changes at progressive parts of your career, but even at progressive parts of company growth and team growth. And so I think this is something that I'm just always working on, which is this moment in time is distinctly different from even a quarter ago or two quarters ago, like the storytelling that that I was doing to reach 200 people at Lume is gonna be very different than the story telling I need now at Atlassian where we have 10 ,000 employees, more than 16 products, everyone has very, very different time zones and priorities.

54:32And so that's something I'm just constantly working on is how do I tell a story at the various points in time of company and team growth? How does AI change your role as a product leader? I think a few things. One is the speed at which we develop. It is just crazy how fast the future has has come and so things that we thought we'd be shipping in five years, we're shipping in six months or a year. What's that down to? Is that because of co -pilot? Is that because of what? Why is that? A lot of these, especially in the video space, the models are getting really good and getting better quickly. And so we are constantly building with the assumption that the basic automation or AI we have today is going to be a hundred times better.

55:20And how do you build an experience that just gets better over time and build for that? And trust that that that technology is going to come not in a year, but in three months. So we actually need to start building for it, even if it hasn't arrived yet. And so that's one we've pulled up a lot of big bets that we may have taken in a few years, but we can take it now. I think the second one is in a way, it hasn't changed the way we build in a lot of ways, just because I think AI is a tool and it's not the end and I think that's something that a lot of folks do get wrong is like, how do I build AI?

55:55Is the question people are AI products that people are trying to ask and the question should actually be like, how do I use AI to solve the customer problems I know about like better or faster? And so it also doesn't change the way in which we build and it's important that it doesn't. What was the most recent wild moment you have with the consumer products? And why was that a wild moment? I recently went to Kindbody. It's a women's healthcare provider in the US. And it's not that new of a company, but it is one of the best healthcare experiences I've had and also a mix of software in -person services and just pushing the boundaries on a really difficult industry to move.

56:38And I think after working in real estate, I have deep appreciation for that. And I think the things that I loved, walked in physical space and services were unlike anything I've ever experienced before. And it mattered a lot in how I felt. I walk into to kind body. Walls are neutral color, amazing furniture, her like smells great. And when you're dealing with a healthcare experience, there's just like an immediate sense of like relief and calmness that comes in. And then in all of their services, they do an insane thing in healthcare which is provide transparent pricing. And it's literally up front and center and they tell you if you want this service without insurance, it's gonna cost this much.

57:20If you want this service, it's gonna cost that much. That just both in gender is trust, but is something that I've never experienced before. And then I think the last bit is they use software to tie it all together. And so they have a health portal like most healthcare providers. I think the functionality is roughly the same, but they've nailed the user experience, which is ease of use and delightful. It's, they also spend their time focusing on being interpretable. And so when I see a lab test in all the results, I don't usually know what most of the things mean and they tell me. And I think the exciting bit is it's better than anything I've experienced.

58:02But yet as a product person, I'm like, there's still so much room to grow this thing. And I think it gives me a glimpse of hope and excitement for this industry that's like extremely antiquated. And progressively it feels like it's getting worse. and so it might not be the most innovative ground -breaking thing, but you mix all of these things together and it's still the best experience I've had. Final one, what do you know now that you wish you'd known when you started Ben Products? I think when I started in product, I underestimated the importance of go -to -market and storytelling when it comes to actually landing a product really well externally and with customers.

58:42I think you oftentimes think if I solve the right problem, build it really well, the users will come and like yes, sometimes it does, but when you add incredible good on market brand storytelling, the compounding effect I think is something that I didn't fully appreciate until later in my career. Jenny, listen, I've gone completely off schedule for most of it, but I love a natural conversation, so thank you so much for moving with the very flexing schedule and you've been fantastic. Awesome, thanks Harry for having me, this was a incredible chat. So I do the vertical shows 20 product 20 growth 20 sales to make advice as operational as possible for founders building today.

59:23Let me know if you would like me to dig in on certain aspects of company building, product building, sales building, growth building that we don't touch on. Let me know if there's leaders that you'd like me to have on the show and unpack those topics with. I'd love to hear your thoughts. You can check out today's conversation with Janie on YouTube by searching for 20 V .C. But before we leave you today. We're all trying to grow our businesses here, so let's be real for a second. We all know that your website shouldn't be this static asset. It should be a dynamic part of your strategy that really drives conversions.

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1:02:21web convertible Gad Excellent Initiative. With adhesive, add new ägachies, to geodesι, add websites i комп craft tools, and we'll be back again with another video in the next video, aka e bjd. If you like the content, just encourage me on either side, etc. and stay tuned for an incredible episode this coming Monday with one and only Danny Rimer at Index Ventures.