20Sales: How to Build Vertical Sales Teams, Why No Customer Success is BS and Everyone Needs it, How to Hire, Train and Retain the First Reps and Lessons Scaling to $2.1BN Revenue and 1,300 People with Larry Schurtz, CRO @ Genesys

24:31I still sometimes will be with customers. I got, I'm still learning. Like, I'm still new. Like, help me understand. I think it is a beautiful learning experience. Now, what's valuable for the customer in that? You got to bring something to the table. You got to do your homework and your background. You got to know your meeting. I'm not parking any of the discipline part of that meeting and the preparation part of that meeting. But if I could be new forever, I would do it. How quickly did you know if a new rap or a new sales size bad? I, you know, for me, that's based on the number of interactions you have with them.

25:02There's some warning signs early. Well, let's use your example. We're going into meet an important customer. I've given you all of the background data on the account. I've given you what they use of our products. I've given you their use cases. And if we're in prep for this meeting, and you haven't been through that, or you don't have a command of that information, Red Flag, right off the bat. If you're in that meeting, and you aren't accurately representing the story of Genesis, and if you don't know about our company, it's kind of Red Flag. And then by the way, just the customer interaction pieces, is you can kind of draw conclusions on how people interact in those situations.

25:43So how soon do I know that they're bad? I would say it's the combination of several red flags. You got a really double click and it goes back to our hiring conversation. And I've made a lot of hiring mistakes. Normally, there is something that ends up showing up that when I was in the interview process, assuming I was perfectly diligent, which I never am. There's always something, it's like, you know, like my gut was a little bit on. Like my god, I hear that a lot with people and my advocacy is trust your god. Normally those things will show up later and without fault, the hiring mistakes that I've made end up showing up in our example right now that were things that I didn't feel 100 % comfortable with and for whatever reason at that time, I gave a pass on right, didn't do enough homework on right, didn't poke on enough.

26:31You got to be able to unpack it. You got to be able to embrace that mistake and you got to make sure that you're doing everything you can and not do it again. So bad is the sum of a lot of red flags and a lack of improvement with coaching. Do you think that was the first 30 days? Oh, yeah. So first 30 days, and you just said that about the gut, and I'm totally with you. Max Levchin from a firm said on the show, when there's doubt, there's no doubt. Do you agree? And should you just move really fast in those first 30 days, say, Larry, I want to get ahead of this, clearly not working. Sorry. What do you go?

27:01It takes time. It's a complex sale. It's an enterprise sale cycle. that young, you know, give them a bit of time. I was saying nature of the flag. Like, what is the flag? What's the foul? And I think he really got unpacked. This goes back to hiring mistakes, cost a lot of money and a lot of time. I think you need to have pretty can of conversations with people. This goes into the whole post call recap and feedback and coaching. If you are doing that coaching, I think you're gonna be in a different bucket. But let's assume for a minute, you go in, we have a terrible sales call. I'm like, oh my god, Harry, like, that was a mess, which I would never say.

27:38But I would normally start off with, Harry, how do you think that went? If it was terrible and you thought it went great, then I'd throw another flag. Like, it really be curious what you thought was great. So I think you really need to unpack that. So it depends on the nature of the flag. If it's a coaching item and a skills -related item, and it's not improving, like, I feel as an employer you have a responsibility to employees. You really do. It's hard on board. You mention it. It's hard to onboard. And I would break it into mental errors and physical errors. I played sports growing up. So my coach has always said that you can make all the physical errors.

28:09You cannot make mental errors. What's the difference in sales? Not a lot. This goes back to I I think there are things that there are flags that would be real issues if in this goes to interpersonal skills. That is something you should be sniffing out of any of your process. Preparation and diligence. Those are things that are they're kind of non -negotiables for the job that we've chosen to do. So I think you need to be candid with your communication. We have a responsibility as leaders to communicate and coach. If that coaching is not working, then I think you need to move quickly. You're just a laying -in outcome that you have already pretty much decided on.

28:45Here's what also happens. By the time the leader knows it, everyone else on the team knows it. They know it before you do. Do you ever keep someone you don't like? I'm an ambassador to my sins. You know, I'm a metaphor and yesterday, enterprise -south business. and I was talking about one of the sales people. And he said, total dick. But I mean, he brought in two and a half million dollars in revenue last year. So, you know, I can put up with it. Do I ever hire people that I don't like? Where I'm like, oh my God, I just don't like that person. They're offensive, they're abrasive. No, I just don't even hire them.

29:16If they're that way to me, they're gonna be that way with their customers. Well, no, they're not. They can be arrogant and douchey, especially in sales. Like, you can be arrogant, douchey, but you put me in front of a client. I'm gonna charm the shit out of them. I'm gonna close them at the end of the contract. I'm gonna be your number one rap And I'm the best so I deserve the most money and everyone else. Yeah, not as good as me Well, Harry, I would I would tell you there's probably five of you You just aren't self -aware enough to know that by the way, this is not actually me

29:48Everyone is like what a dead Legitimate that would be pretty much what I would say there are so many talented people out there, the separation in the highest echelon, like there are more and more in my opinion, wildly talented people out there. I think it's all about building confidence in the early days with sales, teams with sales. People, do you think that you should go for the logos? Or do you think that you should go for just quantity? Just get as many clients or go for that stellar logo. I think it depends on where you are as a business, right? Early stage, you're zeroes 10 million an hour.

30:29And I think you got to go get category killer brands. Why in the early stage, you went for category killer brands? References. If you can be successful with the category killers, and they didn't become category killers, because they're easy to work with. And if you can do it with the best, and I have a huge caveat after I finished the sentence, if you can do it with the best to heck of a place to start. A caveat is closing the deal is like the easy part. You have to be successful. Like for them to be referenceable, they have to be successful. You know, Coca -Cola is not going to go on record and say, we just closed an amazing deal with Harry.

31:06And we have no idea whether it's going to be successful. It's not going to happen. They're probably going to be a reference once they're successful. So for me, the entire orientation of an organization in the early, early stages. I'm talking like Saba 100. I think needs to be figure out the industries and the verticals you could be successful in, go get brand names, category killers, and rotate hard on customer success. If you can't get customer success, but you're dead in the water anyway. Okay, so I had Chris Dagnan on the show this the R .O .S. No Flake. And he was like, uh, why do we still have CS?

31:40We should have professional services and then there's like support but like CS not a fine. I heard Sluitman say the same thing and you should really go like unpack the titles versus the rules because that matters. And by the way, they're in a pure consumption model business which is very different than a booking. So it's a bookings versus revenue kind of business or hybrid businesses. Snowflake success is a hundred percent built on customers being successful in usage. Now, if you're hiring a bunch of salespeople, and then you're going to ask your salespeople, hey, I just want you to go make sure they're successful.

32:17They're going to be like, hold on, and I'm in Snowflake land. I need to find more use cases. I need to find more applications to move onto Snowflake's platform. That's selling. Who is actually managing the technical architecture, the foundations of that customer being successful? You kind of need to go unpack titles versus roles. And some of the companies that say, we don't need customer success. has, someone is playing that role. You can call them whatever you want. You can put them in finance for all I care. But someone is responsible for the correct architecture, aligned to the right use case, and then someone is responsible for growing and expanding that business.

32:56How do you think about the interplay between CS and sales? I had Dave Kellogg on the show. And he said, you never want your farmer going against someone else's hunter, which I always remember as a statement of the your farmer is your CS rap going against someone else's hunter, which is someone else's trained killer, a who's ready to take your customer. How do you think about the interplay between the sales and CS and not having your farmer versus someone's hunter? For me, that's just segmentation strategy. That's the difference between how am I going up against competition based on the accounts that are in their patch, And do we carve out hunter farmer patches?

33:34You know, this could be a whole other five hour block as for you and I. But that's a segmentation question. Let's say we had A .E.'s reps, individual contributors, that just had customers. Okay, so a varying size is right, but they're just customers. There's no new customers or new logos in their patch. Their job is quote unquote farming. I actually kind of don't think that farming is a thing in the cloud world. It's just not. I mean, you're responsible for finding new use cases across the entire bag that you have to sell. So you're always hunting and farming. You have to have interlock, stacked hands, between CS and sales.

34:14I'll take my team that's organized that way, against anyone else's all day. Chris Dagnans? I don't know Chris, but yeah. That'll be a fun show. One thing I want to discuss, you mentioned that use case is there. I'm such a fan of vertical sales playbooks. You've been a master of vertical sales playbooks. I think it's so important to mean something to a specific set of customers. Your messaging is tighter. Everything is better in a vertical sales world in my mind, really. But so many founders like, it's too expensive. It's too expensive to build that. I'm too early and it's too expensive. How do you answer that question?

34:45If I rewind to when we started doing this at Salesforce, it was really born out of customer requirements. You know, we got feedback that we weren't showing up understanding the customer and it really you said it right There's very few things worse than that. So when we started that business We were just very focused on enablement enablement and organizational alignment and there's depths that you can go when you think about Verticals some companies start with industry. So building out industry teams that can come in and have that conversation, but your AES are still aligned. You know, you may have an A that calls in healthcare in the morning, financial services in the afternoon and is going to dinner, you know, with a three -letter agency at night.

35:29Content's created for them. They can kind of get a couple steps down the road. Do you think that's really as effective as someone who just lives and breathes aviation? Yes. Hospitality. And it's expensive. Does it need to be though? You hire a junior a rapper and you say, Hey, you're in charge of hospitality, which entails large hotel chains around the world. Become a fricking nerd on it and go sell. Why does it have to be expensive in that way? That's a great question. When that AE goes to their SE or SE, the technical person on their team and says, I need to come in and show an airplane demo and I'm sticking with the metaphor.

36:08and that that S .E. is like, well, kind of don't, like we've got a really generic one, like what do you want? Then there's a disconnect at the tonical things. Then you're bringing in an A .E. that is super smart, super knowledgeable, and the S .E. isn't. So clearly a disconnect. And then by the way, for our earlier conversation, you're gonna bring in a customer support person, probably professional services, and you're gonna bring them in early in the sales campaign, the customer's gonna go, so how many aviation implementations have you done? Tell me what you know about the industry, and that person's going to be light.

36:39So my point is to truly verticalize and to truly deliver value for customers, it can't just be the eight. It has to be every single person that touches the account. And then you end up in these sub -verticals. Financial services is a lot of things. The reason I think that it gets expensive, and again, you can like be on this journey where you don't have to eat all this cost upfront and you can try things and feel quickly, if you're truly going to deliver the benefit, that what I think is the benefit of a verticalized sales team, it's every person that touches the customer. Can we do one at a time?

37:12Do we need to do three at a time? Yes, and no. I mean, this is another cost implication. This is another prioritization implication. This is like, how much risk do you want to take on? We started with financial services as Salesforce. And it became so successful, they actually developed a product for financial services. That became more impetus. And now the industry products team at Salesforce is just crushing it because they've actually went out and built products specific to the industry. If I was advising you and you're thinking of building out a vertical, I would pick where you think the biggest bang for your dollars and I'd try.

37:45I wouldn't go to three. To what extent is one customer enough to bet on a vertical? And what I mean by that is I quite often meet founders and they're like, well, we got a chase. We feel that actually the social validity of getting chase means we'll be able to get X, Y and Z bank also. Do you really see it like, oh, you got one so you can get another and another? Do the dominoes for when you have a big name or not? Don't say it depends. I think you pick banks, which are super difficult as it is, but I would not make that step. I would not think that just because you got one that you're going to get the rest because by the way, you could have gotten it by accident.

38:25I didn't mean to be abrasive about it, but there's a lot of you can win a customer, I would be more focused on what is the use case, what is the value statement? How pervasive do we think that value statement could be or that problem statement is for customers? I think you got to look at a lot of variables to, and that all rolls into how we should be thinking about tam or, you know, our total available market, just to say that you got one, I don't know, like you kind of need to make a line. What size customer does it make sense to have a full life cycle like a CSM, the full management of the accounts?

39:00The biggest problem I see in SAS today is I see people doing enterprise teams with 10K ACVs. There's a big operational cost implication to doing that. There's how many accounts is an AE going to be covering? There's what's the ratio of accounts for customer support and customer success? there's you should consider appropriate ratios for solution, consult and solution engineering. So you can work into this process. I think when you get down into the maybe your question of, what size customer do I have? One AE covering it that I have one SE that that's all they do that I have one customer success person that's all they do.

39:37Man, it's got to be a pretty big customer. Is that 100K? Well, it depends on your business. If I thought about Genesis, you'd probably need to be close to a nine digit customer. It's tough to get on our top ten list, which we're blasting grateful for. If I was starting a business and that rotation made sense for customer success and you're going to place your bets there, it's always a tough trade -off. How do you think of scale across teams? Never perfect. How do you think about discounting? I want to get some logos. I'm a new hire. I hate it. So if I'm on your team and I do discounting, how do you feel?

40:11Well, discounting is kind of a part of life. I think there's appropriate discounting based on scale. What's appropriate and what scale? Here's the thing, if you're playing and you got to push yourself in the customer shoes on this too. Let's say you're a small company and you're going into Chase, you're kind of an unproven company. They're taking a flyer on you. They love you, they trust you. You're on the hook for this thing to be successful. You're going to pay a pretty price at Chase to win that business. It's pretty risky. Pay any point in your value proposition to them, but you're an unproven quantity.

40:44I think the higher just general industry practice, not being a victim here, but just the way things have been in enterprise technology, there's a linear correlation between volume for the size of the investment and the discount and that varies by whatever you're selling or if you're in the experience orchestration business or if you're in the supply chain business or ERP, companies are pretty adapted buying these days. Like this company's have gotten really good at buying stuff. So they're doing their compares gardener advises on pricing. There's plenty of places you can go do benchmarking The difference for me when someone asks for a discount if it's my team that's asking me for a discount I want to see the value proposition.

41:25I want to see the business case if we don't have a business case If we are having articulated when they're gonna get their money back What those outcomes look like if we haven't done a good job on value and we're just looking for a discount That's the stuff right, and I'm not a fan of that. There's not means we haven't done our jobs Larry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm on your team. And I know I said that the deal will come in this quarter, but it just slipped to next quarter. I'm sorry, slipped to next quarter. How do you respond to me as the sales leader? No problem. Are you? Are you the sales leader or AE?

41:59Who are you? I'm an AE, you're the sales leader. Help me understand, Harry, like what happened? This was a committed deal, Harry, like what happened? I know, honestly, they just, they just didn't have it as a priority this quarter. And so they just said, hey, you know, we're going to punt it tonight. It's cooler. When did it get deprioritized? I went, they went to, they went cold on me and they just go about to me yesterday. Okay. Who are you working with over there? Who's your highest level contact at the account? I didn't fucking know because it's a hypothetical situation. You know, we've got to break.

42:33Could be anyone in the company. I am a huge fan of people doing what they say they're going to do. I put an incredible premium on it. Do you think you're good at sales forecasting? Yes. Why? That how how are you so good at sales forecast and that teach me? Ultimately, you have to balance risk with commitment. Pipeline is everything. So the more the more appats you have, the more likely you're going to get a hit, it's the same thing in sales. And forecasting accurately is in the job that we do a critical part of your brand. If you can't forecast accurately. For me, it's one of a couple of things.

43:07Either you don't truly understand your business. You aren't truly doing the amount of diligence with customers and opportunities. You don't have enough opportunities to be able to balance out some of the riskier things with some of the things that look better. And we might not even be asking the right questions, and we're likely not talking to the right people. Let me say all of that, and it's really hard to do well. I've missed months, I've missed quarters, I've missed quarters back to back. It's a hard thing to do, but there is a real premium in the world that I've chosen to play in on forecasting accurately.

43:42In particular, I kind of own the number myself and my peer in the CSI don't the number for the company. How we think about investment and strategic priorities kind of depends on us doing what we say we're to do. My rollup is based upon my directs doing what they say they're going to do. That's dependent upon theirs, right? So doing what they say they're going to do, which is dependent upon their directs and dependent on all the A's. And managing that with agility and accuracy is very difficult. And I think it's incredibly important. Everyone says today is so hard in sales, so hard in sales, all budgets of centralized back to CFOs.

44:15People aren't spending like they used to, you know, Larry, they're not. They're like, yeah, that's truly like an bullshit. The latter, there isn't a company out there today that doesn't have Tam data that maybe there are, but like in the companies that are really playing the game today that are winning, they know the Tam data, they have, there's so much information about accounts, there's so much information on PTB, like propensity to buy. That information is kind of the table stakes. When AE start, they're kind of like given all of this information, like here's your territory, here's the opportunity inside of your territory.

44:49Now, you could be in an industry that gets hurt macroeconomically. A perfect example. The travel and transportation industry during COVID, tough spot. That's a tough putt. You need to have a little humility with the narrative and a heavy dose of empathy that, listen, some of these are hard. If you've given a patches of customers that are upset and you're working through a bunch of issues, I think you need to have some empathy with that situation and understand that. But I would really push back on a leader in an AE that barring force measure some macroeconomic pandemic or a financial crisis if you're selling to the banks.

45:31I would really push back at any time today of someone saying, you know, people just aren't spending the way they used to. So I'm not able to sell anything. That's a mindset thing too, by the way. Have you ever had bad culture in one of your sales teams and why did that happen? What did you do wrong? The biggest lesson that I would say that I learned early in my career was I didn't even use the word then. The word to me long time ago was like a soft word was empathy. I completely lacked empathy. It would be the narrative of an A .E. in the financial crisis who only called on B .A. and Chase came to you and said, hey, like it's really tough sledding and these opportunities are going to push for a quarter.

46:08And if you just said, I don't care. Go figure it out. Like there was a point in my career where that was that was okay. There was a point in my in my learning as a leader where that was how I was wanted. And it was uneducated. It was very difficult to maintain loyalty. And I think you learned you learned some very expensive lessons that normally show up through attrition. When quality people start leaving, excuse back to our first conversation, when quality people started leaving is comp and issue. Yeah, I mean comp is likely always an issue. I don't think comp is always the issue and I'm prioritizing the issues and it comes down to your leader and I early in my career was not a great not that I'm great now I'm on the journey just like the rest of us that are in this in this role I was pretty poor.

46:54Well that one or two moments where you really thought you improved as a leader like the flow fell from beneath you and you improved in that way. Yeah, so this goes back to our our deal conversation and probably and it's very hard for me to do. Like I would say that I've tried to work my DNA to respond to things a little more masterfully than than I used to but generally when things would come to me as a problem I would respond with finger pointing somebody's doing something wrong very little accountability for myself in that equation and it was really how I responded to things. I learned a lot.

47:30I talked about kind of my career journey. Godfrey Sullivan was the CEO at Iperian. And I learned a ton from Godfrey, the empathy score with Godfrey and customers I learned a lot from. I'll never forget I was a meeting. I'll leave the account name out of the picture. But it was a, we were not doing well with this account. Super senior level, C -suite meeting. The way he handled that situation. Remarkable. What did he do to have? Just listen. Listen. I know you've used in that word a lot. He listened, he was prepared. He showed incredible empathy. He knew the details of what was going on. And he had a plan.

48:07You can tell when someone's genuinely listening or when someone is sitting there with a prepared answer, hoping that you ask the right question. That was a great example for me as a leader. I was blessed to have the same boss for a period of time when I came into Oracle all the way into Salesforce who had a remarkable ability to hear things that weren't going the way the teams anticipated and you'd leave that meeting and like we got this, no problem, really comes with listening and empathy. Those are probably my two biggest career journeys, I think, personally and professionally. I could talk to you all day.

48:40I am cognizant that you do also have a job. Listen, I want to do a quick fight. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay? Yeah, careful what you asked for, but yes. What would you most like to change about the world of sales? I think of value creation, the ability for to universally for teams to be able to convey value to customers. I think that pretty dramatically changes things. I think that changes the optics of selling completely. It's not a sales game then. Tell me, is outbound dead in 2024? No, no, no, no, not at all. Outbound done well. What an instrument, what an incredible instrument.

49:16So no. Do you not worry that with AI, the outbound supply will be infinite in the way that everyone will be able to create so many personalized emails, messages. There's going to be automation gains from AI, so efficiency gains that were largely by the way things people didn't want to do anyway. They hated doing anyway. And then there's going to be augmentation benefits from AI. So helping people do their jobs better. The way I see this going, that's going to be like 3070. I think 70 % of the benefit of AI is going to be for people to do their jobs better. So no, I don't think Alban is better.

49:49I think or anything Alban is gone. I think AI will help enable the right outbound teams to do it better. What's the else strategy? Do you think is dead? That was prominent and now it's like, nah, we don't do that anymore. You know, fab selling is pretty dead. FAB. Do you remember this one? Feature, Vantage Benefit. This is a big deal. This is actually how I learned. This is next that he lay, Lully, that was the training. So you were trained feature advantage benefit. That was how we learned. So I think that one is dad and gone. It goes back to, you know, there's so many value selling frameworks now.

50:23I grew up it in my tech job at PTC, which was medic at the time or med pick. So there's an unlimited choice of them. But I think I'm pretty sure fab selling nobody is writing a book on fab selling these days. What are the most common ways that fast scaling sales teams break? Prioritization for me is the most common. Then I would think generally speaking it's waiting even though you're fast scaling What are the things that you're waiting for something to be different on before you go and try that could create a different outcome? I think waiting is it is just a really dangerous way to go. I'm a founder considering a vertical sales playbook approach What's your number one piece of advice for me focus?

51:04pick your spot on where you're going to go to the vertical on the playbook work outcomes backward. Final one, what recent company sales strategy have you been most impressed by? None. I'm not a sales strat ironically given the job that I have. I'm not a sales strategy like entrepreneur or wizard. So I probably don't see as many or enough in the cloud world you have to be in a land and expand and retain sales strategy. And that's not just sales, it's customer life cycle. If you're not in that business, I think you're gonna lose. Listen Larry, I can clearly speak to you all day. I can't thank you enough for doing this and this has been so much fun.

51:48Man, it's been a blast. It's great to meet you. Thank you for everything you're doing. I just love shows like this. For me, I started these vertical shows because I wanted really actionable takeaways for founders to learn from and implement in their businesses today. Larry was incredible there and if you want to watch the full episode you can see it on YouTube by searching for 20VC That's 2 -0 VC, but before we leave you today Have you ever wondered why spending company money is so broken? Employees want to follow the process, but they're confused and frustrated It takes forever to get anything approved It's so tedious to get anything paid and folks in procurement finance and other stakeholders are just as frustrated too Doplicate spend, unauthorized contracts, surprise vendors, late invoices, missing receipts and documentation.

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