20Sales: PLG and Early Adopter Sales are Gone, How to do Sales Forecasting in 2023, Why You Cannot Do PLG and Enterprise from Day 1 at the Same Time and Which is Easier to Start, How to Onboard, Manage and Scale Reps with Rich Liu, CRO @ Everlaw

23:43It's a good question. The intellectual answer would be it depends on which space you're in and what your DNA is. If I'm building a security company doing enterprise security, I should probably start at the top of the market and and then go down because that's where the inherent need is biggest. And if I'm building like an ads business, right? It's an online ads business publisher like Facebook going bottoms up was absolutely right. So I would say a lot of it is depending on what space you're going after. If you're going to ask me personally, what I think is easier, personally, I think it's easier to start small and go.

24:12I agree totally. I also think it's because it's the product and growth mindset that's inherent within a PLG lead or whereas product first. Yeah. So difficult to be that in an enterprise or. and she tacky on enterprise sales into a PLG motion, not as hard as one thing. You get a Maggie heart of the world, she can do that very well. But just don't try to jump too far ahead of where the product is ready, where your success or your support, where your service is already. That motion if done right I think can be super. We're gonna hire some people now, okay? I had a freaking idea how to hire them. I'm a young first -time founder and you're a real bad advisor.

24:48So we're hiring ourselves first sales team members. How do I literally structure the hiring process? How many meetings? What are we doing the first? The second in the third. Help me. I take a lot of my hiring philosophy from MuleSoftable places. My wife was a long time Googler, who was famous for doing the other executive committee as they're approved every hire. The simple thing that I would say from my MuleSoft days and Greg Schott, if you're ever listening, thank you for the religion on this. People are the most, it's an adage. It's over said, it's a cliche. People are the most important thing.

25:18like that was what that company did better than anything else is figuring out. Not the product, not anything else, but hiring the best people and then figuring out how to utilize them. And how to do that is number one is what do you actually need to do in this job? Not just make calls or all that, but what are the like outcomes that you want this job to have? Help me figure out the narrative, help me break in a new customers in a evangelical sale versus a sort of a more tactical. We already know how we're going to sell it sale. Is it a product sale? I need someone to go spice someone up and get them to believe in the world around when everybody thinks it's flat What are those things you actually need done?

25:51And then let's actually break that down into skills that support it and then let's actually break down a process that helps us Bet for those skills in an effective way and interviews by the way if you think about it They're actually a pretty ineffective way to understand if someone's gonna be good at something right whoever interviews Well gets a job But that doesn't mean they're a great engineer and they're great the CSM or the great marketer They interview really well they're great in the room and I'm terrible in the room So that's why I say that. But what I need to do is design a process that bets for that.

26:16So say I decide okay for my enterprise AES I need really strong operational linear execution. I need strong coachability. I need great in the room skills Let's actually vet for that designing number one structured interview questions that vet for oh tell me how you had Driven situation action result, right? Tell me how you drove this type of Interaction what you did what was the result? How did you do it? Having those structured questions that have bet for those specific skills and then knowing what a good answer looks like What a bad answer looks like and then making sure to ask that question at every time and ideally with the same interviewer So that you can get some calibration between candidates That's really important So if you build out a light structured interview process say it's not not three interviewers one for track record of achievement one for This linear execution coach ability What happens in your coach when I see a track record I get it I go through meals and all so I go do matter Sorry, with your trip options.

27:09What was in coach ability? It had to actually vet for them. So again, I'll go to the other pieces, but track rick and by the way, a lot of people screw that. Like a lot of people leave a lot on the table for like, hey, how'd you do? I was a top rap, I was this day out there, and they stopped there. Everybody in me salesperson can tell you how they were the top. And then the question that don't get asked are like, oh, what were the metrics that you were measured on? Okay, how did you do on that? Great, how many other reps were there in that cohort in that region? I was the top of my region. I was the top five said, oh, it was the top of two reps.

27:37That doesn't tell me much right? I was atop one of 10 wraps on new business sales and the average attainment I did was 120 and the average attainment they did was 80 Oh, that's actually valuable asking those clarifying questions over what period what was the metric how are you measured how many people were in that cohort how well do the others do? So you can actually get a real sense of like repeatability quarter after quarter after quarter year after year after year roll out to roll out to roll That's actually really important so that we don't stop at hey, I was a top achiever cool done That doesn't give you much any great salesperson can ever be a pass that coach ability EQ Those are like hard to ask how do you do that?

28:12Tell me about a situation where you were stuck in a deal Why were you stuck what happened? What'd you do next? What'd you do to get help? Well, what what did how did you react to this? Don't lead them to what you need to get help help. I went to tones of stuff What's you doing that situation did they engage the manager did they engage in essay? Did they go talk to partners outside to go figure out how to go crack that open? Okay, then what happened then what happened? them happen. And you can design these questions to start talking about, okay, what is it in a real life situation in my role? What would I want them to do in that scenario?

28:39To see if they're, like, the classic one is, hey, what's, you lost a deal? What happened? I'm looking for a human. Yeah, you know, all these other things happen. You know, it wasn't built right and externalization, externalization, externalization, or I really should have seen this. I didn't do that. I learned that I should have gotten to the eb earlier. Okay, how'd you not go to the eb earlier? Well, I thought I had a great champion that we're to get the deal done. Oh, interesting. What did you do with that in your next deal? Did you do anything with that? Oh, that was a one off. That was a one off.

29:05Harry, it was going to happen. It was happening sometimes. Yeah, that's a very different response. And oh, I started to do things differently. I go work with my manager earlier to look at the deals and the deal reviews. I'm actually going to use these lines to go get to the eb earlier. And this is why. So you can actually, without leading, see how they respond. And when you ask them, but then what, tell me more, tell me more, you can get some more color. What a big red flag. And what you just said. So one for me would be like, oh, it was rich as full. And you just have total denunciation of blame.

29:33When you look at your career track record, like track record and coach ability, anything's way like Harry, when they say that, be worried. Yeah. Job changes, a lot of job changing huge red flag for me. At some point, everybody's got to get a reason. But if you say do one or two years stints for like several in a row, that's a huge red flag. You know, performance, great sales reps, no exactly how they did every year. Like I can tell you, okay, and in And this year, 2007, I did this and it made this amount of money. I was number one on the sales, but I was number two on the sales, where no three John Hollook beat me.

30:02Damn him. He's an awesome dude. But I missed out because of X like salespeople know their numbers if they can't like quickly rattle and tell you those things or they start to him and, huh? That's an interesting signal when you start digging in track record. It's a really interesting example. But again, the interview structured interviews is only half the story and don't actually give you much. Having an exercise that really, and you don't have to be a big company to do this, what What is something that they would actually do that mimics what they would need to do in the role? Hey, here's a scenario.

30:29Make a cold call to me, write a prospecting email, run this meeting, but do a prep to say what we're going to talk about, like how you would set up a meeting and then go run that meeting with me and how you pitch, maybe our product, maybe it's your own product and do that mock version of it. Super helpful and actually rate that. How did they show up in the room? How did they do at setting the tone for the meeting and running it? How do they do at doing discovery? How do they do at actually commercial teaching? How do they do it closing for next steps? How do I make sure I can quickly design at simple extra You see how they're doing at that and it can be two parts, but it should be part of the process I have to ask do you do it on your company and so you have the domain knowledge that you can judge from the value of them against What do you do on that company where that operating from a situation of safety and domain experience?

31:14Yeah, I've done both obviously with your company You can see if they can quickly do the research which assimilate all the information they get with how to pitch it, figure out the product and pitch it back to you. If you do their product, you can demonstrate more about how they would run the meeting, how they would do the discovery, how they would practice these core sales skills. So it really depends on what you would want to get out of it more. And actually I might do either one depending on, do I have questions of if this person's either smart enough to do my sale or motivated enough to go do the research or is putting together the pieces or it can actually help tell my story in a way that's better that I haven't thought about yet?

31:48But if I have questions on core salesmanship or salesperson ship, I might have them do theirs and I can play into their role. Or am I doing a little bit of that? We're going to spend 15 minutes on a meeting here and then we're going to do like a quick five minute if you're prospecting and doing PG. How would you help PG. We to take a meeting and go do our product. But that exercise is super important. And then finally, like references and back channels, I know sometimes people do the back channel thing is some, you know, has mixed emotions out there. But I would say like if we know someone who we trust that has worked with that person's obviously not gonna blow them up That I trust in my network.

32:20I sure as hell want to figure out some signal references You can easily give someone who's gonna sing my praises tell me if Harry's good or not. Hey, Harry's awesome Cool, thanks. Bye. What does Harry do well? What are the areas that you were coaching Harry in? What are the ways that others worked with them? You know, what are those things that actually get it out? And I set it up by saying hey, I want to make sure this person set up for success here that we're the right fit for them so that we don't put them in the wrong type of company. So the more direct you'll be with me, the more open you'll be with me, the more we can figure out that for this human who I know you love and like and trust, that's the best fit for me.

32:51Someone once gave me the best advice on referencing me. They said people will 99 % of the time never tell you that real weakness. And so you say, hey, if I was hiring someone to work alongside or beneath rich, what skills would they have? And they go, oh, that'd be super rigorous. That'd be very operationally focused, because not need to be so creative, but there'd be very much kind of by the book and driven and numbers went operation. And you're like, okay, you've just told me that Rich is not operational, but he's very creative. It's a really good one. Tell me man, we need to give these guys an offer and girls an offer now.

33:25Well, it's been some big lessons on compactages for sales teams. How should I do it? I would say number one is sometimes I hear founders say, oh, that person's like getting it off of her so and so. They're competing with so and so, I gotta compete with this and to get over anchored into throwing the kitchen sink and giving out the company to go get them. There are some good benchmarks out there for any role, AECSM, marketer, partnerships person, ops person, strategy person. So trust that, all VCs, all the town folks and recruiters will give you that. The bigger question is also trying to figure out, is the person actually at that level and with that experience that you are comfortable making that offer to them?

34:04I think a lot of the call it offer inflation out there that we had seen the last few years was like, okay, anybody can be a VP sale, CRO, CRO at a series A, whatever company, the whole titleing thing got thrown out a whack because the inflation is out there. Another thing is, okay, do the job for a year, does that make me a great COO? Because I got the title now at one place, at a company that may or may not be similar, similar scale, similar problems itself, that doesn't necessarily qualify me for the job. So I would be really clear around like, let's make sure what you need in the job is like based on I need to solve this end of the journey.

34:39Build the first sales or go from first to second -line leadership, take us from early adopter to mainstream as we were doing at Nevan when I joined. These are the things I need done. Okay, great. What scope of person do I need for that? And what is the right titleing for that and what is the comp for that? Be really clear about that and then make sure that the person you are hiring actually fits that description, titles aside, experience aside, and that's what you want to use your interview process to go solve for. We've had people who I've hired. Hey, this is a let's call it strategic sales director RVP role And that person might have that title at another company or a bigger title and they're saying no I should be an SPP Okay, great you can go with them on that or you could say well based on the word you're doing based on scope as it translates to us It's this role this title and it's okay to say look I recognize you can get that SVP CROCO offer somewhere else This is what this offer is.

35:29This is why I believe it's meaningful. The vision that we're selling, the future that we're going to create, the opportunities you'll have to grow and learn, opportunities to work on me, whatever those things are, to be really clear what they're getting there. But don't get caught into the like, I got to do this title of this offer just because somewhere else. And if you do, do so knowingly, I'm trading off that I'm giving this higher title to someone, some person that I might need to up love a later, because now I can't bring someone on top because I've given this title, I've given this cop. I think that's really important to keep in mind and sometimes it's easy to say, okay, I just need to do this to get someone and there you go.

36:02And I'm a huge proponent of being intellectually honest and bringing the people around you if you're a founder to help you do that, right? Your advisors who no go to market your investors, the executive recruiters who again might have a bit of a conflict of interest in some ways. I want to talk about some of the art of sales, so which is a quarter kind of doing it well. and I'm gonna paper you with questions. Number one, discounting. Do you do discounting? How do you advise founders on discounting? What is the model I'm trying to run, right? Every approach has trade -offs. To crowd erase, it's a knife fight.

36:33We got to capture share. I'm gonna do the lowest that I can possibly maintain from a margin standpoint to capture that share and do it efficiently, then raise the prices. Is it a, hey, we think we built even in a crowd space, the best product, it's at a premium. I can clearly tell a story that is defensible and differentiated when I get into that room with the CFO and tell them why it should be worth more. Those are pretty different approaches. A lot of the founders I speak with will probably tell me, hey, we, and ever lose the same way, we think we built the best product, we think we have the best team, we demonstrably get in the room and people say, yep, you guys are the best product, you built the best thing by far, then it becomes a question of how much of a premium can I charge for?

37:09And that premium depends on how well I can tell the story, quantify the value, have proven results for delivery. Rich, that may also be a very direct question. Do you discount? Yes. Okay. If I'm running a PLG, don't waste your time getting into these cycles of discounting and not. But if I'm running like an enterprise sale, I like to hold a high list and then figure out how I need to discount to still protect a premium and get the deal done. I'm going to discount aggressively if I need to break in a new space and market. But I need to know why I'm doing that in the trade off of me because now I'm eating cat effectively.

37:40it's deal reviews. How often do you do them? What makes a good deal review versus a bad one? How do you structure them? Yes, we do them. Bad deal review is everybody again in a room. Let's go talk about the DLC. What happened? Great deal review. Let's actually go through and use a framework, any framework, MedPick, you build your own, right? Command of the message, create negative consequences. What's the pain? What's the negative consequences? What are the outcomes? You want one of the after scenario and positive business outcomes? Use a framework, But be religious about actually using it so that you're not just getting in there.

38:10All right, how's it going on with the deal? And it's sometimes doing that for all the key deals that are not necessarily just going to close in a quarter But that you need to go evolve from whether it's 10 or 25 % stage to the 50 % 90 % stage that's actually where the impact is driven by when we're looking at the deals that are supposed to close this quarter It's like all right, you have a close plan. You have access to the eb You have to quantify the metrics that we've done the validation steps It's actually that cohort of deals that's like going whatever you call it that we've done the demo there's something here we haven't actually built it into like a verbal commit yet.

38:41That's actually where the deal review is the most valuable And I'm trying to grab those deals at recorder and make sure that either me or head of sales or head of America's whoever it is is actually doing that deal review with that set of deals at recorder You get through them rich. How often do you do deal reviews weekly at least I weekly at least got you who comes to the deal review the rep Frontline manager and an executive of the VP sales, the SBP sales, me, someone should be there. What are the most common reasons that you don't get deals over the line? I think there are a few places that comes up.

39:13Number one is you never had true buy -in to start with. You didn't do the deal the right way yet. You're trying to prosecute and just go through the sale stages. I'll send out contracts. Boss, I got 10 contracts out. All right, are anyone going to sign? By when? By what? Actually trying to do the contracting and the like operational sale without actually getting over the hump with your champion, with your economic buyer, with a business case that matters. That's a huge issue, particularly right now in a changing market. A second one is not getting to the economic buyer and actually selling to them.

39:44Right now, the, oh, I got the e -be in the back behind the scenes. That's not a true champion. You don't have a deal. Those are probably the things that are hurting deals the most right now in this current environment, in this changing environment. What are the biggest red flags in the first month of a new sales rep joining. They don't do PG number one. They don't generate their own pipeline. They won't make the calls. They won't actually get out there and get their hands dirty. So being PG is pipeline generation. Correct. If they are not doing, if they're not doing it early in their tenure, that's a sign.

40:12If you've set up an expectation that they should be doing it, to me, that's a big one. And how do you tell a lot of you looking, pop drive and see? Do you look in that? Call and doesn't see that email. Yeah. There's as tactical as activity. But if you could set of basic sales force reporting on how many ops they're generating. Good role of thumb is like an AE in my book should be generating at least a new op a week by themselves without SDRs without marketing, helping them in an enterprise software sale out on sale. Are you at least doing one off a week? If you're not, okay, are you doing activity?

40:38How are you doing it? Do you actually know how to do it? That's the hardest part of selling it. They don't have either the appetite or the skill to do that. You better get it fast because you're not going to work here. And granted, we should be vetting for that in our hiring process going back to what we just talked about. That's number one. Number two is when they just don't seem to grok the product. If I don't, if I can't grok the like talk track, how to talk about it, how to use the product, how to share it. Yes, we talked about not going straight to a product let's say a driven sale, but if they're not showing that at a pretty fundamental level and quickly grappling onto those sound bites, talk tracks, that's usually a big red flag for me.

41:10So between those two, those are pretty early because those are the precursors to can you actually get pipe, can you actually build late stage pipe, can you actually do deals? It doesn't matter how good they were in the room because they might not ever get there. One of the biggest fuck up you've made is a self -leader -ish. This is one where probably good advice for founders and for sales leaders and heads of sales are just getting really aligned on expectations on what's possible what's not. So number one is I talked to a lot of early -stage go -to -market leaders and early -stage founders who will tell me the flip side of this same question which is like what's possible?

41:40It's talking to a founder and he had just turned out ahead of sales. I want to push them hard, I want to make sure that we're striving and we're you know this is like a 10x type of year, we should be running five X this year. I believe the product is so good that it should be doing that. His sales leader didn't have that belief. His sales leader is like, hey, I think this is like a two X year, one and a half X year, 5 % growth year. Here's why. And there was that gap between what each side thought was possible. And instead of solving that and figuring out a target, the CEO founder sets a target that's like crazy high.

42:10Sales leaders like, I don't have the confidence to push back or bring this to a header lead and takes that. And we'll bend over backwards, try to make it happen, see what happens and then even if you get to 90 % of that crazy stretch target, man, it feels like, oh, we burned ourselves ragging, we still didn't hit it, you know, maybe the board's like, ah, you have come, you didn't hit this target. And meanwhile, growing 4x of on a 5x target might have been freaking amazing, taking all the weird expectations out of it. I've certainly fallen into that camp. That's one of the biggest things that I've done as a sales leader.

42:38So I think it's just so important to get no daylight between what we think is possible, what the appropriate amount of stretches so that we set the expectations around the right way. We motivate the team the right way. They have the right feelings of winning. We set the board expectations and company expectations the right way. And most importantly in this environment, we're investing the right way because the worst thing is I invest for a 2x growth year and I grow one half x and I took the cost to grow 2x and a group. What would you advise sales leaders in terms of accurate full -costing in 2023.

43:08Now is the time more than ever to go inspect what is real and what is not because things that might have been a deal that you could feel 50 % 75%, 90 % confident a year ago might not close at all this year or might get delayed this year. So like the difference between deals pushing deals not closing at all or deals coming in way smaller is do I have direct access to an eB do I have a real business case or am I selling it off of a cool this is a nice product we'd love to have if I'm doing that kind of inspection for troop business case, direct access to EBE. Do I have a closed plan in front of them or an evaluation plan that we've talked about?

43:43By this date, we will do this. By this date, we will do that. You are looking for these three things to go make a decision. These are who the people are who are going to make the decision by this date. And this is what we will show them. If we don't have that, even if it was a good deal last year, it's probably not going to close this year and it's definitely not going to close on time. So that level of inspection of your mid -stage pipe and what are the things in your sale you need to have a deal right now and take a fresh look at it. That is what but I think everyone should be doing in your entire mid -stage pipe and building into your early qualification deal process or sales process if you don't have it.

44:14Those are the things I'm seeing like in different sales and different industries and different velocities, it could be different things, but that's the thing that's gonna keep us from getting surprised around, hey, I had this pipe and I had this great pipe coverage. It turned out it was like fake pipe and just slipped out. I can talk to all of them, my friend, but I wanna move into a quick firearm. So we're gonna start with what sales tactic have not changed over the last five years. I would say a huge fan of force management and that the value framework, you know, whether it's force management, whether it's like, challenge or selling that idea of needing to attach, do enough pain -based discovery to figure out what are the most important problems or worries or fears or existential threats that company is facing, that the CEO is facing, that the economic buyer in your org is facing, like doing that level of pain -based discovery has not changed and actually getting to that true, I don't know, sandwich called like level three pain of like what is the true business pain and figuring out how to map what you do your service your platform really back directly to that in a quantified way that has not changed.

45:13Well sales tax it has died of death. I would say for me right now having that perfectly crafted email hey I did agree with the UI now it's two paragraphs I've done a lot of research or I've done the cheap thing where it's like hey you went to you know you're the captain volleyball team what do you think about you volleyball this year Rich like those types of like pure right the perfect email and you get a response like that's not going to work right now. I would say like multi touch and VR and SDRAE like multi touch. I don't get a lot of calls. I won't take a lot of calls, but I will say like send me the text.

45:46Leave the call, send me the text. Hit me on the voice about 70s of video video like figure out how to get through to someone. I think needing to actually be creative and multi touch. I'm always shocked at how many reps don't do the click video or don't do the LinkedIn or don't do the Twitter or don't do the g chat. What is the use mistake found as mate when hiring sales team. The biggest mistake I think is hiring ahead of what you actually have conviction to do. You think you are ready to scale and you're not ready to drive efficiency. The second is just hiring a leader that is not really well suited to what you need done in terms of what you need to accomplish in the next 12 to 18 months, not 24 to 36 and not moving quickly enough to go make changes if it's not working.

46:23What one piece of advice would you give to a sales lead starting a new role today? Be quick in identifying and driving alignment with the CEO or founder or your boss. What are the most important things we can get done this quarter? What are the one or two metrics that I need to show you to show that we're doing this right? What would you most like to change about the world of sales? Oh gosh, more people get into it instead of feeling like, when I got into sales, I was a gangly engineering student from Yale and I had this understanding that it was for like slick, well -spoken white guys that could tell the story the right way.

46:57And I had that chip on my shoulder. And I would say that I would love to see more people consider it as a career coming out of any major with any background because it's an amazing career. I've learned a ton. I've met some really cool people doing it. And the reason I'm still doing it is because I keep learning and I keep figuring out ways to do it differently. And in an environment where maybe AI is going to take our jobs, ability to go connect with people in a real way. The ability to go show value. The ability to go do deep -disco. I think that's at a premium. And sometimes slick, well spoken white guys are very good at this.

47:26Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. I was like, I was like, I was doing that in the future going, oh, I feel judged. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. I mean, I'm like best friends are that I don't live in. And then, oh, my ego is sufficiently inflated anyway. I will be fine. But I do want to finish on my favorite actually, other than Avalor. What one company sells strategy have you been most impressed by recently? It was a wild back, but I think one of the plays that I think really helped me even during the pandemic. So we bought people AI during the pandemic at trip actions to bond. And it was initially to go get like contact capture so we can build our database to go track activity and go go better do marketing to those folks.

48:03And they do this thing where they did the like, hey, we know you don't want to buy this expensive analytics offering. But we think it can give you some insights. And I'm like, no, I got a great analytics team CKC use the best on the plane. You know, real hold the size like amazing. Like we got our own stack. We're good. And they were like, well, we'll give it to you for free for six months. Just try it out. Like, will help you implement it and stand it up. And if it's anything other than amazing, like you don't have pay for it, but they built it in the contract. So it was like premium in an enterprise software sale.

48:27They built a premium thing into the contract. They worked with us to stand it up and make it successful. And sure enough, we signed the check to do the broader platform by after that was done, despite a lot of skepticism on my part that it was valuable. Now that's not to say that's the only way to do it. But in a world where we're trying to drive more bundle size and basket within our customers right now, to keep them sticky in an environment that is going to be more friction around buying and keeping pieces of hardware software, thinking creatively around how to actually build that expansion, that cross -sell into your sale upfront.

49:00I think that was a great example of that. And you got a travel company to buy more software during a pandemic and the revenue went down to zero. I think it's a pretty cool thing. Dude, I love this. Thank you so much for putting up. It's Friday afternoon, so I've been more casual than I normally am in my straight -unit language box. But I love this. It's been so much fun. You've been fantastic, so thank you so much for joining me, stay man. Oh my gosh, Harry, much enjoying at my side, always a pleasure and I hope you have a wonderful week. Well, I mean, that was a free -flowing discussion, which really put up with the way we'd schedule there.

49:32If you want to see more from us, of course you can on YouTube by searching for 20VC, and I always love to see you there. But before we leave you today, you might remember in our amazing episode with Maggie Hot. She mentioned a tool she could not live without, called Pocus. What is Pocus? Well, Pocus is a revenue data platform. The amazing easy for go -to -market teams to analyse, visualise and action data about their prospects and customers without needing engineers. Focus helps companies like Miro, Webflow, Loom and Superhuman focus their sales and success teams on the highest priority opportunities by surfacing insights at the right moment so wraps can take action quickly.

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50:49Some of the world's leading companies like Google, Shopify and Stripe all love a new sales loft and so can you. It's the new way to sell. Find out more at salesloft .com. As always I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an amazing episode this coming Friday.