20Sales: Why Everyone is Responsible for Demand Generation, How to do Great Sales Discovery, How to Reduce Sales Cycles and Create Urgency and Deal Reviews; Good and Bad Reasons to Lose a Deal with Doug Adamic, CRO @ Brex

0:00So there's only three reasons why an organization will make a purchase. They're in trouble right now. They see trouble coming or an individual or group wants to be made a hero and get ahead of something. I mean, what an incredible start there. I don't even as ever been a more important time for sales teams to understand what it takes to unlock revenue in tech companies today and unlock the buying of software. This is 20 sales. The monthly show where we sit down with the best sales leaders in the world to reveal their tips, tactics and strategies. When he comes to starting in scaling sales teams and stay I'm so thrilled to be joined by Doug Adamic, C .R.

0:35at Brax where he leads the company's revenue and grow strategy. Prior to Brax, Doug was chief revenue officer at SAP Concur and during his 16 year tenure he oversaw an organization of 600 employees and was responsible for all aspects of revenue, generating go -to -market strategies and departments. But before we dive into the show's day, Outreach is the only AI -powered sales execution platform that unlocks seller productivity to help sales teams efficiently create and close more pipeline, from prospecting to deal management to forecasting their platform leverages automation and artificial intelligence to help revenue leaders increase efficiency and effectiveness of all go -to -market activities and personnel across the revenue cycle, and An outreach is the only company to offer sales engagement, revenue intelligence and revenue operations functionalities in one unified platform.

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2:39You have now arrived at your destination. Doug, I am so excited for this. I spoke to many, many people ahead of this conversation. So thank you so much for joining me today. Now, thank you, Harry. It's awesome to be here and I'm so psyched to have a chat with you. I love a little bit of context. Sales is something that often I hear people fall in love with. When did you fall in love with sales first? And what was that entry point for you? I didn't get into sales coming out of college. I was actually in finance and accounting and I worked in a finance and an accounting organization coming out. And then one of my buddies said, hey, you know what?

3:13I think you'd be awesome in sales. Why don't you talk to a recruiter? So I spoke with a recruiter in my very first sales job with that company called Cintos. I don't sure if you've heard of them before, but they rent uniforms and they do programs like that. And it was an incredible journey to have an incredible training program. And the second I got into that organization, met the people and started to understand what sales was all about. I fell in love immediately. I think you need to have an entrepreneurial spirit to go into sales, but I think once you understand what sales is all about improving a customer's business by driving specific outcomes, you recognize how complex it is, how intricate it is, and how rewarding it can be.

3:56So I definitely think it's something that can be learned over time. Can I ask, well, one of my cool in particular on you said that Doug doesn't realize how brilliant to listen to he is. He asks questions and listens. He asks another and this is an in total he says about 50 words in an hour long call How do you reflect on what makes a good listener and how do you advise sales people reps leaders on what makes great listening Sales it's funny because I've been asked this before my feeling is is that I am really interested in how other people Perform their work how businesses operate. I am really really purposeful and passionate about whether or not my involvement in their lives can improve their job or improve their business by being able to drive outcomes they otherwise would not have been able to do.

4:46So when I'm listening I'm actually super interested to see whether or not the individual, the group, the department, the company is experiencing something where I believe I can lean in and be able to help and to do that you actually have to be really in the moment you have to be super mindful you have to get rid of all of your preconceived and you just have to be centered. And when you do that, you actually connect extraordinarily with people from all different walks of life and all different levels and all different whatever to be able to do that. And when you pull it all together, then you really find the fact that you are truly trying to help somebody and improve their lives and create these relationships and then lean in on it.

5:26And that's what's the best part of it. Do you record sales schools? I do, yes, of course. And how do you do them in terms of reviews as a team? I'm just fascinating. Do you do coaching on those sales schools? Yeah, so one of the departments that we have is an enablement department and what we try to do is break down the sales methodology into specific steps. And then when we're looking at a sales call, it's very difficult to look at it in totality. We break it up into bite -sized steps and then be able to critique whether or not we are doing the things to get access to unique information that we can be able to determine whether or not our solution is a unique way of being able to solve the business problem.

6:13So when I break sales calls down, I break it down into how much are we listening? What kind of discovery questions are we asking? Are we gaining access to unique information that others wouldn't be able to get to because we are so thoughtful in our preparation and doing that, then what do you do with that information in order to change the buying criteria to lead to our solution? Everything follows that sort of TikTok pattern along the way. I could keep going on that train, but I might shit. I need to actually put it. But I had so many great quotes that you say. And I called it the Aferisms of Doug, which I love as a title.

6:52Oh no. Okay. And so number one is pipeline is all air without it we die. Can you unpack this for me and what you mean by that? One of the things that I don't think organizations embrace fully is the fact that you obviously have a marketing department and on the surface you think a marketing department is responsible for pipeline and two degree that's correct. However, everyone's responsibility is demand creation. I have three major objectives that I tie my entire Go -to -Market distribution team to. One is advanced demand creation. Two is the profitable conversion of that pipeline and then three is the protection and growth of our customer base.

7:36So when I say pipeline is our air, I say that everybody has to contribute to building demand. And if you don't, then we are going to run out of demand to be able to meet the growth goals that we have. So everything begins with everybody pitching in to create pipeline and demand and that is why I say that this is our air It doesn't matter what department you're in it doesn't matter what function you have you constantly have to be thinking about how you are Contributing to building demand in an organization. How do you think about effective goal setting against pipeline? Then actually ties back to revenue because I've done it before where you say hey I want X number of leads and they go out and get X number of really shit leads.

8:20No dollars. How do you think about creating effective goals that tie to revenue? If we're speaking about pipeline then first I begin with the source by which the pipeline is created. That can be inbound, that can be partner, that can be self -generated, that could be internal referrals from the organization and so on and so forth. So first of all we understand and where is it that we can be able to get our pipeline? Then, we have to create attributes to that pipeline to be able to understand the characteristics of it. And primarily the way in which I would goal that is the quality of that pipeline of conversions at each stage of the pipeline process.

9:02So then we can be able to dial in and say, okay, this message through this channel converts at a higher rate, and then you can adjust your levers in your dials to be able to lean in on that, to be able to have better pipelines. So the goal would be not to create everyone talks about like, you need to have 5x pipeline, you need to have 7x pipeline in order to make your goals. Not necessarily when I left concur and where I'm trying to drive Brexit, we had less than one x pipeline going into a corner because we knew how to build pipeline in the customer base, we knew how to be able to convert it.

9:37So our effectiveness in pipeline creation just created the proper pipeline to be able to do those kinds of things. So in that is where we're trying to get to. It's not the abundance of pipeline. It's the quality of the pipeline from source by conversion by channel. And then you can be able to dial in from there. What do you think drives quality? Is it super tight ICPs with very strong discovery processes? What is it that drives that high quality? So at BRACs, because of the business that we're in, a project can be initiated by a number of different constituents or personas within an organization at multiple different levels for multiple different reasons.

10:17So the first thing is that you need to be able to have the content to understand how to communicate to those personas in regards to maybe the business challenges that they have. So product marketing, positioning, content is like incredibly important. And then two, you have to be able to have attributes and scoring of the leads when they come in and accuracy in the data hygiene of that. You have to make sure that people are monitoring and capturing all of this data along the way because it is very data driven in regards to that. And then you follow through the pipeline and being able to see how that's going to be able to convert over time.

10:56Doug, what do you do when thinking about a demon creation? And you're like, whoa, I didn't sign up for these wayward questions, but I'm going for them anyway. Okay, go ahead. Demon creation in 2023 is much harder than in 2021, especially. What do you say to teams in tougher years where demand is not as abundant as it was? Well, first of all, I struggle with that comment inherently because like you're saying like, hey, in bad times, how is it difficult to be? I think that those are the best times to create demand. When you are focused on being able to drive value in regards to investments that company makes in giving employees money to spend on their behalf, that tighter the times are, the more they need to pay attention to this.

11:42So I guess it's a mindset. We're building pipeline incredible right now, going through that because of the times that they're in. Do you find that people are receptive to it though? I find that most buyers now in technology companies is just like, where's your shop for business? And it's almost as close -mindedness to any form of new vendor. Do you find that? Yes. Well, first of all, yeah, money is tight. And I'm not necessarily only competing with competitors in my market or in my industry. I'm competing for total share wallet for anybody that's out there. So fighting for a dollar of investment from a company is really, really tough.

12:17So that's for sure. So now, the uniqueness about this, Harry, is the fact that the pattern in which a lead like transforms into an actual demand and then gets into a campaign is much harder. So maybe five, seven years ago you had used a touch in individual four times or five times before they would convert into wanting to learn more about your business. Now we're up to like 16 or 20 times to be able to do that. So it's just making sure you're putting these processes in place and understanding the patterns that happen and don't get to turkey jerky and getting too early because you'll fling them off the hook.

12:55You've got to let it set a little bit and then get them at the right time and just understanding that. Can I title the episode? Don't get too herky jerky. I've never heard that saying before. That's fantastic. We'll see. That's what I have aphorism. Brilliant. Listen, the next one is threading multiple needles with one toss of the thread. What did you mean by this? Can you unpack this one? Yeah, so when I'm talking with and coaching my either leaders or my sales folks or all of the contributing departments that are there, I don't think that people recognize that a properly run sales campaign begins at hello, right?

13:34And so you have this thread and in order to get a deal done, especially in this environment, You have to be so precise in the way in which you're tossing that and it's not just going through like hey I've got to just convince the CFO or I just have to convince the vice president finance or control it You actually have to throw that thread and you have to be able to convince and hook multiple people maybe five six seven people Through that so it's how precise are you did you line everything up and when you toss it you really have only one toss because companies today aren't going to give you a second or third chance if you falter during the course of your campaign.

14:11So it's a way to bring focus to people to say, every word you say, every action you do has to be precise and it has to be leading towards something that you want to get done. So I always make that thing like your toss and thread through multiple needles. That's how precise we need to be. And if you're not thinking that way, then you're doing yourself in the company that you're actually trying to serve a complete disservice. How do you You know, if you're speaking to a actual buyer, a lot of people say they have the buying permissions and actually don't, being focused and having one toss of the thread, how do you make sure that you're actually speaking to the buyer?

14:45Well, first of all, in a very, very pragmatic sense, asking that individual the last time they implemented something similar to Brex, and then just listen. And if they don't have a precise or concise answer or can't point back to something that they did, then you probably are not talking to the fire. You're probably talking to an influencer or maybe even someone that's going to have a massive impact on the overall. But if they haven't bought something and can articulate, yes, this is what happened, this is what I did, this is what I bought, this is how it went, and this is what happened. It's difficult.

15:18The reality is, is that most often we can study the patterns of what happens with similar organizations, and I can train the salesperson that, hey, if you're going into a 500 -person technology organization and you're talking to this persona, this is how naturally the buying pattern would be. You're not talking to the buyer here, the buyer will be here. They'll be not revealed until the end, so you're going to have to do this to get there to do that. So it's understanding and interpreting the data to be able to help coach the salesperson so they don't get tricked in regards to that. How do you think about creating multiple champions in the sales process.

15:53On paper it sounds wonderful, but to be like, Doug, I love our chat, so I'd love to meet the rest of your tea. It always feels kind of dehumanizing and people know that you're trying to do it. How do you create multiple champions without trans -asionalizing it? It's a difficult one because you have to be okay with constructive tension in a sales campaign and if you don't have constructive tension in a sales campaign, then you're probably not introducing something that's pushing the boundaries of the thinking of the group you're talking to. So the way in which I coach to be able to do that is the fact that we have a very, very specific thing that we do to improve a customer's business.

16:37And it drives outcomes that they have yet to fully understand because it is a disruptive way of being able to think about it. in order for me to determine whether or not we have a platform to be able to do business, these are the steps I have to take to be able to do that. The benefit is, Mr. customer or person I'm talking to, is that you will be able to determine whether or not this is something you would want to continue to invest more discovery in or you want to just cut me and we don't have an opportunity. The faster we can get to that, the more time we'll save for one another. So you have to be okay, pushing a customer to be able to do something that they don't want to do, but it's in their best interest to do it because the thing that I'm trying to help them understand is something that they don't fully understand.

17:22So I have to bring that expertise, I have to push the agenda, and I have to be okay with constructive tension to change sort of their thinking or maybe even lead them to something that they didn't know was broken or that they didn't recognize in the first place. Do you find constructive tension is more welcomed in younger startup flash technology companies versus when you're selling to Audi Deloitte Cooper. No, it's interesting, I would say that both are difficult to be able to pull up, both have characteristics that are very similar. The larger organizations have much more complex layers to it, politics, history, things like that.

18:02And when you're dealing with more startup organizations or newer organizations, it's not easier, but it's just a different pattern. but they both exist and you have to fight through it in both situations. Take more trips to the bank to make the positives. Okay, again, I was reading these when I was being re -soulled. They're not giving me a lot of hints, are they? So take more trips to the bank to make bigger deposits mean. When you're talking with salespeople, one of the things, this is going to be a weird thing. One of the things that is incredibly important is for a salesperson to understand effectiveness in their movements are going to give them more capacity to be able to sell more.

18:48What I try to do is say, hey, you know what? If I do my job correctly and you lean in on the playbook and you follow the rules that have been set up technically, you should be able to get more done in a day to be able to make more frequent trips to the bank to make bigger deposits because that's why you're here. And I'm not going to be doing my job if it's more difficult for you to make a living or over time when your territory shrinks and your quota goes up, you can't balance the fact that I can still work the same amount of time or less and be able to make more money because I'm leaning in on the system, I'm leaning in on the playbook to be able to do that.

19:29So my message to my front line is my goal if it reveals itself in a very precise way is you go to the bank and make larger deposits more frequently because you're following the rules in the playbook that we're put in the place and until that doesn't happen you should always be able to lean into that. So this is sort of a philosophy of motivating and helping articulate that to salespeople. What do you think is the biggest challenge that salespeople have when they hear that. What's the hardest next step for them? I think that what manifests itself is sales reps. If they don't take that, like, seriously, they try to force deals to happen.

20:10And they're not being honest in whether or not their activity is as effective in achieving their goal. Because you don't wake up every single day and say, Hey, how hard can I work for as little payback as possible? It's literally the opposite way around. So when I'm hopeful reps hear that, they're like making decisions on the activity they're doing directly in front of them and saying, does this get me closer to going to the bank to make larger deposits more frequently? Or is this taking me away from that? And if it's taking me away, raise your hand. I want to come over and understand how to reduce that drag, how to be able to get more frictionless activity in your business so you can be able to do that.

20:56So it's a constant feedback loop in that. How do you think about increasing urgency in a sales process? Most things are not like hair on fire. Some things like cyber protection when you've been attacked. Yes, you need it right now. But most things you don't have to buy today. How do you create urgency in a sales process? So the shortest answer for that is that you have a value proposition that's either going to save the company money, make the company money save time or do something so dramatic that waiting another day or another week has a financial impact on that. And then if you're capable of being able to articulate that as cleanly and crisply as possible, then every day you wait that you don't address this problem, you're just hemorrhaging cash or throwing money out the window.

21:48That's going to be the easiest way to be able to do that. Means you have to have a very strong value proposition. You have to be very diligent in your discovery. We talked about this earlier. You have to talk to multiple constituents and you have to put a business case that all folks believe is something that is going to be impactful to the organization. So having multiple interviews, doing a deep discovery, forcing yourself to understand how the business operates will reveal whether or not there is an issue that requires immediate triaging right now, whether there are precursors for the beginnings of an issue that could come down the way or maybe there's individuals that have joined the organization that are looking for transformation.

22:30So there's only three reasons why an organization will make a purchase. They're in trouble right now. They see trouble coming or an individual or group wants to be made a hero and get ahead of something. So the only thing you're trying to figure out is how to be able to do that. And most of the time it creates enough compelling about it. Doug, we have 70 ,000 sales leaders that listen to the show now, I think. My question to you is a lot say to me, discounting, should we do it to get that urgency? It's kind of an easy hack slash lever. How would you advise them listening on discounting and whether it is a good lever to get that urgency?

23:07Discounting is a difficult thing because you always want to charge what is fair for the value that you're bringing. And if you did the work upfront to establish that value, then salespeople and their leaders should feel confident in standing up for that. Discounting and and creating that kind of buying pattern for your organization or for your service is going to set a bad precedent. Again, if I go back to what we were talking about before, about going to the bank and making bigger deposits, there are a few things that are rep leads to consider in order to do that. How do I increase my average deal size?

23:49How do I shrink my cycle time? And how do I make sure that I have more units in my pipeline that are converting at a higher rate. Discounting or playing shenanigans or games is only going to demean that because if you did your discovery and established yourself correctly, then this is the fair value for what it is and you should be able to continue that constructive tension and being able to command that provided your organization delivers on that promise over and over again. So I don't feel as though I need to overly discount in order to be able to add value to an organization or create that compelling event in general.

24:27Lengthen your stride and quicken your step. We're going to write a book together actually. I can be all over. There's a great chapter. What does lengthen your stride and quicken your step mean? So all of these statements that you've somehow found have all going back to the fact that most people in the world don't live to work, but they work to live. So these aphorisms that we're talking about are just gentle reminders to make people understand. These are things that you constantly have to think about. Not just in your professional life, but in your personal life as well. So when I say this, like when quotas go up in territory shrink, have that's the definition of growth.

25:09Then the only way for you to be able to make more money is to go faster and there's only two ways in the world regardless of who you are, what age you are, what shape you are, whatever, to go faster in this world, which is you have to lengthen your stride and quicken your step. It's really not that difficult. Now there's a thousand different books and techniques and tools and equipment to be able to do that, but there's only one way to run faster, lengthen your stride and quicken your step. So we break down where the rap is or where the leaders are or where the teams are to say What is preventing you from lengthening your stride and quickening your step?

25:50Let's remove those things and then let's lean in on the tooling to make that happen over and over again That reveals itself differently in different teams, but that's the concept of it What do you think the biggest bottleneck is the speed of those sales reps? That's a good question. I think depending on the company is how quickly they can understand what it is the purpose of the company is trying to do and what is the outcomes that a company is trying to elicit and how does that translate into improving a company's business. So if you don't understand how to change the buying criteria to lead to your product rather than leading with your product, then I think that's the biggest challenge, at least that I have in building and training a sales force, is to refrain from being excited to talk about features and functionality and be more diligent in trying to understand how the company they're talking to operates and where uniquely we can be able to help achieve their goals by being able to deliver measurable outcomes.

26:59You said measurable outcomes that and it made me think of a word that is thrown about so much and I just don't think it's really very clear which is sales playbook. When you think about sales playbooks, what does sales playbook mean to you when you hear that? For me, it has a couple of different layers to it if you will. For me, a general sales playbook is the fact that in order for whatever segment you're talking about to run an effective campaign that provides a delightful customer experience where we explore, whether or not there's potential for a partnership. You need to do these particular things in this particular sequence.